FWD-RWD-AWD

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Originally Posted by blackshine007

I think that with a limited slip in a front wheel drive car, it closes the gap on the RWD>FWD thing because if you let off the gas in a corner, the front wheels might push but if you give it more gas it will start gripping harder into the corner and sometimes the tail might start sliding out (providing the suspension is set up right for it). I still agree that RWD>FWD but for power to weight, it's the other way around. AWD is like FWD but with training wheels.

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Sounds like you're describing AWD bro. A properly setup AWD car will claw its way around a turn but have enough power through the rear wheels to keep the attitude neutral. FWD will not turn in harder under gas, AWD will if its set up right.

rwd ftw

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Originally Posted by GTScoob

Sounds like you're describing AWD bro. A properly setup AWD car will claw its way around a turn but have enough power through the rear wheels to keep the attitude neutral. FWD will not turn in harder under gas, AWD will if its set up right.

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I think I would've mentioned AWD when describing a FWD car with an LSD and properly set up suspension. I'm aware that you can get a good 4 wheel drift going in an AWD car. It's way more controllable with AWD providing there's enough power and a good suspension set up. When I said it closed the gap on the RWD>FWD that didn't mean that it completely dominates AWD. Just gives you a more compelling reason to keep a FWD car.

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Originally Posted by blackshine007

I think I would've mentioned AWD when describing a FWD car with an LSD and properly set up suspension. I'm aware that you can get a good 4 wheel drift going in an AWD car. It's way more controllable with AWD providing there's enough power and a good suspension set up. When I said it closed the gap on the RWD>FWD that didn't mean that it completely dominates AWD. Just gives you a more compelling reason to keep a FWD car.

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blackshine007, im still waiting to here a response to post #69. ready to here more forza talk

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

blackshine007, im still waiting to here a response to post #69. ready to here more forza talk

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I don't own Forza, let alone an Xbox 360 or PS3. You drive a car with a shorter wheel base. It's characteristics are naturally gonna be different from a car with a longer wheelbase. But, you're right. It's just Forza talk, because I guess I'm talking out my arse. EJ25RUN might be on to something :jerkit:

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Originally Posted by blackshine007

EJ25RUN might be on to something :jerkit:

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no wanking for me.

boobs are fun :yes:

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Originally Posted by blackshine007

I don't own Forza, let alone an Xbox 360 or PS3. You drive a car with a shorter wheel base. It's characteristics are naturally gonna be different from a car with a longer wheelbase. But, you're right. It's just Forza talk, because I guess I'm talking out my arse. EJ25RUN might be on to something

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and you think i havent driven other cars? did u not read my post? I geuss not because your still saying some stupid sh.it. a shorter wheel base car has more rotation (generally setup related) but the handling is similiar for all FWD, lift drift. go race a car then come back and tell me that gas in a FWD = oversteer.

like i said, if you know oo so much about FWD then set my car up please.

BTW, EJ25RUN knows his ****. and he can tell you the same thing. watch some incar race videos and learn a thing or to. watch steering and throttle/brake input. what you said was logical yet was wrong (applys for some AWD cars and RWD cars).

nice try.

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

correct. its called slip angle.

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Yeah but I felt if I had just said slip angle that everyone else wouldn't understand.

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Originally Posted by Reaper

tray sliding is fun the first time you do it....then when you run out of trays...your stuck w/fwd again..:lmfao:

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LOLz so true

who was the first person to vote FWD?

Reveal yourself!

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Originally Posted by Jecht

Yeah but I felt if I had just said slip angle that everyone else wouldn't understand.

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haha. true. but because its IA, you could have put JDM slip angle and people would have understood. lol

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

correct. its called slip angle.

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Kind of, in the sense that oversteer is a circumstance of a certain slip angle.

At the same time, understeer and neutral handling are both attributed to the slip angle.

Calling oversteer the "slip angle" would be like calling engine knock the air/fuel ratio.

drift is holding the car sideways for a period of time...not fast

slip angle is more of a rotation into a corner.

i voted fwd

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

drift is holding the car sideways for a period of time...not fast

slip angle is more of a rotation into a corner.

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Slip angle is the angular difference between the direction the tire is moving and the way it is pointing.

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Originally Posted by fcman

Slip angle is the angular difference between the direction the tire is moving and the way it is pointing.

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thats pretty much what i said, just tuned down for IA.

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

and you think i havent driven other cars? did u not read my post? I geuss not because your still saying some stupid sh.it. a shorter wheel base car has more rotation (generally setup related) but the handling is similiar for all FWD, lift drift. go race a car then come back and tell me that gas in a FWD = oversteer.

like i said, if you know oo so much about FWD then set my car up please.

BTW, EJ25RUN knows his ****. and he can tell you the same thing. watch some incar race videos and learn a thing or to. watch steering and throttle/brake input. what you said was logical yet was wrong (applys for some AWD cars and RWD cars).

nice try.

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So basicly, you're telling me that a FWD car is by no means capable of oversteer due to the drivetrain configuration?

I could possibly help you with your suspension set up, what's your specs front and rear and what's the average speed you do around a track? I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly I try to help out anyone. Are you shallow enough not to listen or do you know everything? PM me your specs and we can converse there.

It is VERY difficult to get a FWD car to oversteer without letting off the throttle. Blackshine, in BOTH those videos you posted, the drivers are letting off the gas to get the rear to slide. In the case of that "drift" Civic, he grabs the ebrake first so that it swings out, and he lets off of the gas. It is also easier to do in that car because of the short wheel base and high spring rates in the rear. If you listen to Jeremy in the second video you posted from Top Gear, at exactly 00:49 seconds into the video Jeremy says "if you turn into a corner without the power on, the back slides around."

You REALLY don't know what you are talking about.

The reason that Type R Civic from the Top Gear video slides when you let off the gas is because of the stiffer rear springs and larger rear sway bar. You can tell it has those stiff rear suspension bits because of the way it lifts the inner wheel in a corner.

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Originally Posted by blackshine007

So basicly, you're telling me that a FWD car is by no means capable of oversteer due to the drivetrain configuration?

I could possibly help you with your suspension set up, what's your specs front and rear and what's the average speed you do around a track? I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly I try to help out anyone. Are you shallow enough not to listen or do you know everything? PM me your specs and we can converse there.

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You want to make a chassis that naturally understeers to oversteer? Why?

Oversteer = bad
Fwd = understeer
Understeer = bad
blackshine007= really doesn't know what he's talking about

Lets put it this way: ANY loss of traction is stupid and will slow you down significantly. The only reason understeer is seen as bad is because it can only hurt the line you take around a corner, unlike oversteer where you can use to tighten the line closer to the inside of the corner.

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Originally Posted by Jecht

Lets put it this way: ANY loss of traction is stupid and will slow you down significantly. The only reason understeer is seen as bad is because it can only hurt the line you take around a corner, unlike oversteer where you can use to tighten the line closer to the inside of the corner.

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You make "hurting your line around a corner" seem like its not all that bad.

It is!

Oversteer hurts the tires (im not talking about drifting).
In a race or even a street car, a loose backend keeps you from giving power to the car. Less power means slower car.

to add.

A car with controllable oversteer typically has a very good suspension setup. A very good suspension setup can be driven to not oversteer.

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

You make "hurting your line around a corner" seem like its not all that bad.

It is!

Oversteer hurts the tires (im not talking about drifting).
In a race or even a street car, a loose backend keeps you from giving power to the car. Less power means slower car.

to add.

A car with controllable oversteer typically has a very good suspension setup. A very good suspension setup can be driven to not oversteer.

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Well, understeer isn't bad for beginner drivers. It's easy enough to avoid, all you have to do is let off the gas. I wouldn't want a loose rear end on ANY car, but I would certainly love a car that is mostly neutral with some slight oversteer at the limit.

Just to confuse Blackshine some more: Nissan's 240sx is set up to understeer from the factory.

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Originally Posted by Jecht

Well, understeer isn't bad for beginner drivers. It's easy enough to avoid, all you have to do is let off the gas. I wouldn't want a loose rear end on ANY car, but I would certainly love a car that is mostly neutral with some slight oversteer at the limit.

Just to confuse Blackshine some more: Nissan's 240sx is set up to understeer from the factory.

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correct.... due to the fact manufactures know most people cant drive very well, most cars are designed to under steer

thanx for my 1500 rep point :goodjob:

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

You make "hurting your line around a corner" seem like its not all that bad.

It is!

Oversteer hurts the tires (im not talking about drifting).
In a race or even a street car, a loose backend keeps you from giving power to the car. Less power means slower car.

to add.

A car with controllable oversteer typically has a very good suspension setup. A very good suspension setup can be driven to not oversteer.

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correct. to much oversteer and you will overheat your tires. my car can be a oversteer freak or as neutral as can be depending how its driven. the setup is very good and i can make it do exactly what i want it to. this allows me to rotate the car into tighter corners but be very stable on sweepers.

there is a difference between slip angle or rotation and drifting. like Jecht said, it helps bring a car into the apex allowing you to have a faster entry to a corner.

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Originally Posted by blackshine007

So basicly, you're telling me that a FWD car is by no means capable of oversteer due to the drivetrain configuration?

I could possibly help you with your suspension set up, what's your specs front and rear and what's the average speed you do around a track? I'm not trying to be an ass, but honestly I try to help out anyone. Are you shallow enough not to listen or do you know everything? PM me your specs and we can converse there.

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i never said it couldnt oversteer? i actually said it doesnt oversteer becuase of applying power...like you said it would. have you ever tried to do what your talking about? setup has nothing to do with it. no matter if its a stock honda or a FWD BTCC car, applying the power is not going to make a FWD car drift. explain how you make a FWD car throttle oversteer...

:lmfao: :lmfao: have YOU help me with my setup? why should i believe you could help setup my car when you sig says "Fear my insanely terrible driving habits" ? LMAO. why would I mess with something that works. i wouldnt let you touch my car if you paid me. you couldnt help sh!t. your a stupid mothafawka and couldnt tell someone the first thing about car setup or driving. you are stupid for trying to prove me and EJ25RUN wrong. idk who the hells been teaching you about handling characteristics, but they are wrong. give it up.

EJ25RUN and Jecht..reps

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

Allot of you guys are forgetting (ok most of you don't know) about Class II FWD touring cars from the mid to late 90's......

They can and have beaten RWD and AWD cars on the track and cost Formula 1 like budgets to make so they died out around the year 2000!

http://coronaexiv.hood.jp/exiv_sport...hattori_02.jpg

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+whatever im worth for posting that. Thank you. I vote FWD. I am a fan of traction. Drifting and "RWD fun" has its place on the track, but most of us dont see the track too much anyways. Someone posted that there was no snow in Atlanta, but there sure is ice.

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

correct. to much oversteer and you will overheat your tires. my car can be a oversteer freak or as neutral as can be depending how its driven. the setup is very good and i can make it do exactly what i want it to. this allows me to rotate the car into tighter corners but be very stable on sweepers.

there is a difference between slip angle or rotation and drifting. like Jecht said, it helps bring a car into the apex allowing you to have a faster entry to a corner.

i never said it couldnt oversteer? i actually said it doesnt oversteer becuase of applying power...like you said it would

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I believe you said it right when will over steer when lifting off the throttle during a corner. I had it wrong. Most apologies.

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. have you ever tried to do what your talking about? setup has nothing to do with it. no matter if its a stock honda or a FWD BTCC car, applying the power is not going to make a FWD car drift. explain how you make a FWD car throttle oversteer...

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I wasn't trying to convince anyone that a FWD car can drift, just given the particular set up the back end can come out, which could've been an improper set up of suspension (rear zero camber and positive toe with stiffer springs/strut and sway bar and high tread wear tires instead of R compound tires) but with sticky tires up front. In the first vid, the civic was clearly pulling the e-brake. But drifting is drifting, just not in the traditional way.

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:lmfao: :lmfao: have YOU help me with my setup? why should i believe you could help setup my car when you sig says "Fear my insanely terrible driving habits" ? LMAO. why would I mess with something that works. i wouldnt let you touch my car if you paid me. you couldnt help sh!t. your a stupid mothafawka and couldnt tell someone the first thing about car setup or driving. you are stupid for trying to prove me and EJ25RUN wrong. idk who the hells been teaching you about handling characteristics, but they are wrong. give it up.

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I wouldn't go that far. I do have experience in suspensions. I'll be the positive one and say to each is own. I'll concieve and say that you made your point. My key words was "depending upon suspension set up" which should have included tires as well. But oh well, can't win them all, huh?

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Originally Posted by blackshine007

So basicly, you're telling me that a FWD car is by no means capable of oversteer due to the drivetrain configuration?

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I have a serious question. My Yaris hatcback had a tendency to swing the back end around instead of understeer. The tires would grip and refused to send me into an understeer situation. Probably due to my lack of power and torque. However the backend, with it's stiff-as-hell suspension setup and lack of rear weight, wouldn't hesistate to come swinging around and have my nose pointing at the inside ditch. It was easy to control, but it felt...awkward. Would this in anyway be considered oversteer or just rotation? :???:


As for which do I prefer between AWD, RWD, or FWD? First off, I don't have much experience with AWD so I'll omit it completely. I'd have to say it depends on what I'm wanting to do. 2/7 of the cars I've owned have been FWD and I've never had any problems with them. I found their characteristics more predicatible and easier to control. RWD has definitely been more fun in the long run. Being both at drift events and regular track events, the RWD cars have always been enjoyable. So again, I'm not particularly biased towards one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Ran

I have a serious question. My Yaris hatcback had a tendency to swing the back end around instead of understeer. The tires would grip and refused to send me into an understeer situation. Probably due to my lack of power and torque. However the backend, with it's stiff-as-hell suspension setup and lack of rear weight, wouldn't hesistate to come swinging around and have my nose pointing at the inside ditch. It was easy to control, but it felt...awkward. Would this in anyway be considered oversteer or just rotation? :???:


As for which do I prefer between AWD, RWD, or FWD? First off, I don't have much experience with AWD so I'll omit it completely. I'd have to say it depends on what I'm wanting to do. 2/7 of the cars I've owned have been FWD and I've never had any problems with them. I found their characteristics more predicatible and easier to control. RWD has definitely been more fun in the long run. Being both at drift events and regular track events, the RWD cars have always been enjoyable. So again, I'm not particularly biased towards one or the other.

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Does the backend start to swing out under braking or does it step out when you get back on the power?

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Originally Posted by Ran

I have a serious question. My Yaris hatcback had a tendency to swing the back end around instead of understeer. The tires would grip and refused to send me into an understeer situation. Probably due to my lack of power and torque. However the backend, with it's stiff-as-hell suspension setup and lack of rear weight, wouldn't hesistate to come swinging around and have my nose pointing at the inside ditch. It was easy to control, but it felt...awkward. Would this in anyway be considered oversteer or just rotation?





As for which do I prefer between AWD, RWD, or FWD? First off, I don't have much experience with AWD so I'll omit it completely. I'd have to say it depends on what I'm wanting to do. 2/7 of the cars I've owned have been FWD and I've never had any problems with them. I found their characteristics more predicatible and easier to control. RWD has definitely been more fun in the long run. Being both at drift events and regular track events, the RWD cars have always been enjoyable. So again, I'm not particularly biased towards one or the other.

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The reason the yaris does that is because of its setup. What you are feeling is rotation. The reason you feel like its a lot of oversteer is because A. ur not use to it and B. no enough experience in a FWD car. There is a art to driving a FWD car fast. As stupid as it sounds, you steer the car with the gas and brake. coming into a turn, brake, lift towards the apex, then mid turn mat that gas pedel to the floor and thats a FWD turn in some what basic terms. The number one problem people have with driving a FWD car is they drive a RWD car and get use to when the car gets sideways, they steer out of the corner and apply the brakes or apply a little throttle depending on the car. In a FWD when the car oversteers, you are going to steer out of the corner then immediately into the corner applying the gas the entire time.



Yes, FWD can be just as competitive as a RWD car when there are class limitations making the cars equal, but when there are no limitations to drivetrain, RWD will always be used.


Blakeshine007, thank you for admiting you were wrong. Most people on IA wouldnt do that. You have gained my respect sir.

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

Does the backend start to swing out under braking or does it step out when you get back on the power?

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Doesn't really seem to matter from what I've noticed. If I was taking the corner at a high rate of speed, the whole backend would just swing around and then I was forced to correct/control the car with steering and throttle control.

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

The reason the yaris does that is because of its setup. What you are feeling is rotation. The reason you feel like its a lot of oversteer is because A. ur not use to it and B. no enough experience in a FWD car. There is a art to driving a FWD car fast. As stupid as it sounds, you steer the car with the gas and brake. coming into a turn, brake, lift towards the apex, then mid turn mat that gas pedel to the floor and thats a FWD turn in some what basic terms. The number one problem people have with driving a FWD car is they drive a RWD car and get use to when the car gets sideways, they steer out of the corner and apply the brakes or apply a little throttle depending on the car. In a FWD when the car oversteers, you are going to steer out of the corner then immediately into the corner applying the gas the entire time.

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Thanks for the info. The first time I drove the Yaris on a mountain, I was surprised when the backend came around and the frontend didn't understeer. I got used to it, but it never sat quite right with me. As you stated, I don't have enough experience with FWD cars. Too much drifting at Turner Field with my previous RWD cars. lol

Reps for the info. :goodjob:

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Originally Posted by Ran

Doesn't really seem to matter from what I've noticed. If I was taking the corner at a high rate of speed, the whole backend would just swing around and then I was forced to correct/control the car with steering and throttle control.

Thanks for the info. The first time I drove the Yaris on a mountain, I was surprised when the backend came around and the frontend didn't understeer. I got used to it, but it never sat quite right with me. As you stated, I don't have enough experience with FWD cars. Too much drifting at Turner Field with my previous RWD cars. lol

Reps for the info. :goodjob:

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Do you have aftermarket wheel & Tires on it yet?

If not, i think you should get gripper and wider tires and some rims. It should help quiet a bit. You gotta remember Yaris weren't made to go around corners at any rate of speed.

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

Do you have aftermarket wheel & Tires on it yet?

If not, i think you should get gripper and wider tires and some rims. It should help quiet a bit.

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Suspension and wheels/tires were the first things to be done. Full TRD suspension setup (sways, shocks/struts, springs, ect...) coupled to 16x7 wheels and tires. I later swapped those wheels for some 17x7's since I stopped doing mountain runs.

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

You gotta remember Yaris weren't made to go around corners at any rate of speed.

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The Yaris actually has it's own racing cups in various Asian countries.

Also, I no longer have the Yaris. Just FYI.

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Originally Posted by Ran

Suspension and wheels/tires were the first things to be done. Full TRD suspension setup (sways, shocks/struts, springs, ect...) coupled to 16x7 wheels and tires. I later swapped those wheels for some 17x7's since I stopped doing mountain runs.

The Yaris actually has it's own racing cups in various Asian countries.

Also, I no longer have the Yaris. Just FYI.

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I see...

i think with you adding the sway bars, you might have actually stiffened the suspension to far.

Here's the easiest way to explain what im trying to say.

F1 cars slid because the have absolutely NO body roll.

Your suspension might be so stiff that instead of naturally the weight transfer causing the car to get lower on on side, it has to instead push the car out for that weight to go somewhere.

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

I see...

i think with you adding the sway bars, you might have actually stiffened the suspension to far.

Here's the easiest way to explain what im trying to say.

F1 cars slid because the have absolutely NO body roll.

Your suspension might be so stiff that instead of naturally the weight transfer causing the car to get lower on on side, it has to instead push the car out for that weight to go somewhere.

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the chances of him have it to stiff are slim to none.

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Originally Posted by fcman

So for a F1 budget you would rather have a FWD honda than, say, an ACTUAL F1 car? I wonder which is faster... :rolleyes:

I would say this just PROVES the point that RWD is the way to go.

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hold on a sec FC man.....

You do realize that in the years between 1995-2000, the British Touring car championship rivaled F1 in popularity? Why is this. It is till this day the best and most competitive racing ever. It was boxing on four wheels. That JTCC accord and Nissan Primera sit in the Musuems of the two brands because the cars were so great. Why not, Why not take the tech from F1 and throw it onto a FWD chassis. You've heard of racing improves the breed. Why can't F1 cars improve even simple Touring Cars.

Here's some examples. ~ Watch these Fcman!
Btcc compilation
Nigel Mansell gets a chance to drive a BTCC car
The Night at Snetterton Pt.1
The Night at Snetterton Pt.2
The Night at Snetterton Pt.3

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Originally Posted by matthewAPM

the chances of him have it to stiff are slim to none.

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RAN is a girl:)

95-00 BTCC will go in history as the greatest racing seasons ever. period

alot of technology from F1 IS put into touring/GT cars....

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

RAN is a girl:)

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Um...no?

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Originally Posted by EJ25RUN

RAN is a girl:)

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the chances of IT having the car to stiff is slim to none. :lmfao: JK man