New Study Shows that Welfare Benefits are Exceeding Minimum Wage Jobs.......Why Work?

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Originally Posted by David88vert

I know why McDonalds is in business. They certainly aren't there to take money from the shareholders and give it to the employees.

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They are there to take money from you in exchange for a Big Mac, fries, and a large diet coke.

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So, you can use hypotheticals and it should be taken as a serious discussion point, but if I use real life experience, then that is anecdotal evidence, and shouldn't really be considered?

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I wasn't using a hypothetical statement as empirical evidence. You however, used anecdotal evidence as evidence that suggests there is a large percentage of people who've made flipping fast food burgers a dedicated career choice. So yes, your anecdotal evidence should not, and is rarely, if ever, considered in place of actual empirical evidence in the science of economics, or the science of anything at all for that matter.

So, instead of saying "I worked in/walked in 1 of 12000 franchises and this lady had been there for 29 years, so this is what it's like", show me the data

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Ok. If you took away welfare altogether at this very second, do you think that homeless population would increase or decrease?

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In the short term it would increased. In the long term it would decrease.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

In the short term it would increased. In the long term it would decrease.

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You're right. It would increase.

So using right now as our base homeless/indigent population, we know as someone who's homeless, you have a few options

We can starve and die
We can panhandle or steal and get by
Or We can get a job.

Lets say 1/3 do each. So when the homeless population increases:

What happens to the jail population?
What happens to the hospital population?
What happens to the pool of unskilled labor?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I would say the demand curve for a dollar hamburger is a bit flatter than other things...

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And you base your statement upon what statistical or scientific evidence?

Generally, people tend to cut back on eating out first when they try to save money, then luxuries like car washes, etc. - i.e. discretionary spending. Do you think that Starbucks will continue to make their same profit if they have to increase the payout to the employees? Where is the tipping point where they decide to close the less profitable stores, and when they need to cut some benefits?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Ok, so we went from talking about McDonalds to the entire group of people making minimum wage, and we went from talking about doubling minimum wage, to not doubling minimum wage

We know that $15 is a starting point for a negotiation. So lets say they settle on $10, which is reasonable.

Using our same marginal propensity to consume, what do you think people making minimum wage are going to do with the extra $3/hr? Will it be spent or saved?

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Now we can get to the core of your statements. You consider that going from $7.25/hr to $10/hr is reasonable for minimum wage. From earlier statements, you also mentioned tying pay increases to the rate of inflation. That is what the Democratic Congressmen John Conyers, Jr., Jesse Jackson, Jr. and Dennis Kucinich introduced as a plan back in June of 2012. The “Catching Up To 1968 Act of 2012” would bump the minimum wage up from $7.25 an hour and require an annual increase tied to inflation.
Are you sure that you aren't a Democrat?

President Barack Obama promised to raise the minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2011. How did he do on keeping that promise?
Poverty | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team


Lower income people are definitely more likely to spend any increase in income, rather than save it. There is no question about that. What they will spend it on though is another matter. There is no one saying that fast food workers will spend it on fast food. They are highly likely to spend it in their local economy - I think that we can agree on that. Stores that sell low cost items, like dollar stores, would likely benefit from an increase in minimum wage, even though they have to pay out more to their employees.
As for a real benefit, in 2012, 1.6 million people in the country made minimum wage, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
2 million were paid below minimum wage, and that is a total of 3.6 million workers - less than 5% of the total work force.
Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2012
So, how much of an economic stimulus would you gain by increasing the minimum wage?

More importantly, let's note that about 11 percent of part-time workers (persons who usually work less than 35 hours per week) were paid the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of full-time workers. This year, with Obamacare coming, companies created 4 times more part-time jobs than full-time jobs - and that's a new trend, and a major flip-flop from last few years. You support the program that is helping create more of these minimum wage jobs, and just want to pay them more? How is that sustainable?


I think that I need to be clear here - I am not against raising the minimum wage, just against the government making quick, drastic changes to private industries when the current economic situation does not call for it, unlike the undereducated fast food workers who are calling for it. McDonalds does not have an obligation to support a family of 8 for the work of 1 person flipping burgers or manning a cash register. Do you understand that a "living wage" is not the same as minimum wage?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

They are there to take money from you in exchange for a Big Mac, fries, and a large diet coke.

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That is the method that they use. That is not why they are there. You are presenting a small business mindset, which is not the same as how a corporate executive thinks.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I wasn't using a hypothetical statement as empirical evidence. You however, used anecdotal evidence as evidence that suggests there is a large percentage of people who've made flipping fast food burgers a dedicated career choice. So yes, your anecdotal evidence should not, and is rarely, if ever, considered in place of actual empirical evidence in the science of economics, or the science of anything at all for that matter.

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Did I say for you to take personal experience as scientific research? I don't see where I stated anything even remotely like that.
I did say that you did not present anything of evidence - just conjecture.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

So, instead of saying "I worked in/walked in 1 of 12000 franchises and this lady had been there for 29 years, so this is what it's like", show me the data

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I already gave you a link to the BLS, but look up the Center for Economic and Policy Research - a liberal think tank. They did a study as well on minimum wage.

Let me ask you this - what do you think will be accomplished by raising the minimum wage? Give examples.

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Originally Posted by David88vert

And you base your statement upon what statistical or scientific evidence?

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Elasticity of demand.

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Generally, people tend to cut back on eating out first when they try to save money, then luxuries like car washes, etc. - i.e. discretionary spending.

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So you would say, to someone with a lower income, a $1 hamburger is equally as discretionary as a $10-$20 car wash?

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Do you think that Starbucks will continue to make their same profit if they have to increase the payout to the employees?

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency_wage

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President Barack Obama promised to raise the minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2011. How did he do on keeping that promise?
Poverty | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team

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Considering it was $5, and now its 7.25, and considering the opposition, Obama and I would say...

http://cronkitehhh.personal.asu.edu/...a-not-bad.jpeg

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As for a real benefit, in 2012, 1.6 million people in the country made minimum wage, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
2 million were paid below minimum wage, and that is a total of 3.6 million workers - less than 5% of the total work force.
Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2012
So, how much of an economic stimulus would you gain by increasing the minimum wage?

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We'll round it off and say 4m since everyone who makes more than minimum wage would likely be bumped up too, and those who make less than min wage maybe bumped all the way, or maybe just $3

So around $3/hr, at maybe an average of 30hrs a week, times 4 million, times 52 weeks. MPC is about 80:20. That would be the economic benefit over the year. 15% of THAT would go to state and federal taxes depending where you live.

If all of the places that sold low cost goods and groceries and cheap hamburgers hired just one person to keep up with increased sales, how many jobs would that be?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Elasticity of demand.

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The last I checked, $1 hamburgers are not considered to be Veblen or Giffen goods, and as such, the demand would be negative, not positive, per the formula. This works with necessities, such as gasoline, but not luxuries, such as eating out. You can still easily carry a lunch, it does not prohibit you from eating. When you studied the formula, did they not teach you about substitution of goods or breadth of definition?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

So you would say, to someone with a lower income, a $1 hamburger is equally as discretionary as a $10-$20 car wash?

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No, the lower income individual might not even have a car. That is secondary to what is discretionary.
The fact is, to the lower income person, eating out even for a hamburger is discretionary.
And the person who makes more than minimum wage, and has a car, might choose not to get a car wash every week, and instead wash it themselves or cut back on the amount of washes, as they are now spending more for every other service that involves minimum wage employees.
The key is that you aren't producing more wealth, you are just rearranging people's priorities based upon a manipulated price point.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Considering it was $5, and now its 7.25, and considering the opposition, Obama and I would say...

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It's hardly what he promised. Would you agree that it is a broken promise? If you think that it is not a broken promise, please explain how it is not.

You might appreciate this though: http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html

Basically, there are less people at minimum wage than in the past, so isn't that a good thing? Are you wanting more people to be working at minimum wage, or less people at minimum wage?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

We'll round it off and say 4m since everyone who makes more than minimum wage would likely be bumped up too, and those who make less than min wage maybe bumped all the way, or maybe just $3

So around $3/hr, at maybe an average of 30hrs a week, times 4 million, times 52 weeks. MPC is about 80:20. That would be the economic benefit over the year. 15% of THAT would go to state and federal taxes depending where you live.

If all of the places that sold low cost goods and groceries and cheap hamburgers hired just one person to keep up with increased sales, how many jobs would that be?

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Where is this increase demand coming from? Have you even been to Econ 101? As prices rise, demand falls - learn the basics first. You aren't creating wealth, you are simply shuffling people around. People working at a Starbucks that closes will simply shift to working for Family Dollar. As you stated, Starbucks makes 11% profit. What happens when some of the stores that are already near the bottom of the list of profitable stores tip over the edge? If a $4.25 Chai tea jumps to $5, do you actually think that demand will stay the same or increase?
When demand falls, Starbucks either has to cut costs or lower prices. They aren't going to lower the price back to $4.25 and make less profit. They will cut staff, who will have to go and find another job. This could be by laying off individuals or closing a location.

Or, to you, does only what the government collect in taxes matter?

Let me ask you this question. how many college graduates have you interviewed this year in regards to giving them job offers? I have interviewed quite a few, and find that they fall into two camps - those that make the effort to prepare for an interview, and those that put forth no effort to even read a little online or watch a YouTube video. I've found that only about 1 out of 10 even are hirable for a job that requires no experience, only a slight bit of reading prior to an interview. And I'm not talking about minimum wage - jobs that pay $40-45K to start, and that have training included at full pay rate.
Oh yeah, but my real world experience really doesn't matter though, right?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

So, assuming this is 100% correct (albeit limited) information, and the math works out as it should, and I could effectively double the minimum wage at McDonalds by charging an extra quarter for my dollar burger and current consumption rates remained stable, would this topple a US economy?

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topple? no, but all you would do is pay the Minimum wage worker more, and his dollars would be worth LESS. You would have solved nothing and caused a raising in prices, and also massively distorted unskilled and skilled labor jobs. The toppling effect would be extremely detrimental to the low skilled worked you are trying to help.

Cost of unskilled labor going up means cheap goods will raise in prices which.........doesnt help the low paged worked.

Raising the minimum wage to $15 hr HURTS the worker, doesnt help them at all, actually hurts everyone else as well. A business doesnt operate in a vacuum , all other competitors will be affected.

A 25% price raise kills the middle class and poor. thats all that matters.

Simple fact is they are unskilled labor workers, they deserve the lowest wages out of unskilled labor workers because they do a job anyone can master with no education and no training. these jobs arent made to be careers (unless you go into management). If they dont want to work for minimum wage, they get to go find a job that pays them better. If they cant, thats not mcdonalds problem.

I say give them their $15/hr raise, and then layoff half the workforce. Or fire them all because there are people waiting to take their jobs.

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Originally Posted by David88vert

And you base your statement upon what statistical or scientific evidence?

Generally, people tend to cut back on eating out first when they try to save money, then luxuries like car washes, etc. - i.e. discretionary spending. Do you think that Starbucks will continue to make their same profit if they have to increase the payout to the employees? Where is the tipping point where they decide to close the less profitable stores, and when they need to cut some benefits?




Now we can get to the core of your statements. You consider that going from $7.25/hr to $10/hr is reasonable for minimum wage. From earlier statements, you also mentioned tying pay increases to the rate of inflation. That is what the Democratic Congressmen John Conyers, Jr., Jesse Jackson, Jr. and Dennis Kucinich introduced as a plan back in June of 2012. The “Catching Up To 1968 Act of 2012” would bump the minimum wage up from $7.25 an hour and require an annual increase tied to inflation.
Are you sure that you aren't a Democrat?

President Barack Obama promised to raise the minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2011. How did he do on keeping that promise?
Poverty | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team


Lower income people are definitely more likely to spend any increase in income, rather than save it. There is no question about that. What they will spend it on though is another matter. There is no one saying that fast food workers will spend it on fast food. They are highly likely to spend it in their local economy - I think that we can agree on that. Stores that sell low cost items, like dollar stores, would likely benefit from an increase in minimum wage, even though they have to pay out more to their employees.
As for a real benefit, in 2012, 1.6 million people in the country made minimum wage, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
2 million were paid below minimum wage, and that is a total of 3.6 million workers - less than 5% of the total work force.
Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2012
So, how much of an economic stimulus would you gain by increasing the minimum wage?

More importantly, let's note that about 11 percent of part-time workers (persons who usually work less than 35 hours per week) were paid the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of full-time workers. This year, with Obamacare coming, companies created 4 times more part-time jobs than full-time jobs - and that's a new trend, and a major flip-flop from last few years. You support the program that is helping create more of these minimum wage jobs, and just want to pay them more? How is that sustainable?


I think that I need to be clear here - I am not against raising the minimum wage, just against the government making quick, drastic changes to private industries when the current economic situation does not call for it, unlike the undereducated fast food workers who are calling for it. McDonalds does not have an obligation to support a family of 8 for the work of 1 person flipping burgers or manning a cash register. Do you understand that a "living wage" is not the same as minimum wage?

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STOP, he doesnt like facts.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Considering it was $5, and now its 7.25, and considering the opposition, Obama and I would say...

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You just nuked yourself without even knowing it.

We have raised minimum wage how many times?

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In November 2012 the U.S. Census Bureau said more than 16% of the population lived in poverty in the United States, including almost 20% of American children,[7] up from 14.3% (approximately 43.6 million) in 2009 and to its highest level since 1993. In 2008, 13.2% (39.8 million) Americans lived in poverty.[8]

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Look at the poverty rates
File:Number in Poverty and Poverty Rate 1959 to 2011. United States..PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Despite raising minimum wage, it does JACK SHIT to poverty rates. Theres ZERO correlation with raising minimum wage and people improving their situation because of it. This is what you and other libs dont understand. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A BOTTOM CLASS of people, Everyone CANT make $50k a year. Embrace it. Then, we can talk about getting these people training and education to get out of poverty into a job that pays better. And those that dont want to do it, fuck em, let them deal with the consequences of their actions.

You make people rich by education and training, not by arbitrarily handing them money because .............they feel like it.

Its the dumbest argument anyone can make, and no one with any sense believes that raising minimum wage solves problems. It doesnt.

Id bet you ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY that raising minimum wage to $15 hour, these people will be bitching in 2-3 years because it wont change a thing. Just like the last 70 times we raised minimum wage. The funny thing is most states pay MORE than minimum wage. Minimum wage is $7.25? Average Mcdonalds starting pay is $7.40. They voluntarily pay more.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3vp03FkHLl...-1994-2012.png

tieing minimum wage to inflation, just means more inflation. Costs go up, prices go up. PERIOD. Instead of talking about giving people money, talk about making them better people to get hired at better jobs. Its really that simple.

You left out that when our wages increase, jobs that can be done overseas will be outsourced, as those labor rates are lower, and bring the company more profit. Imports become cheaper as well, which has a negative effect on locally established businesses.

Also, the talk of raising minimum wage is just a distraction from the real issue. What you really want to accomplish is raising the ability of each dollar to purchase more goods and services. In other words, raising the minimum wage does not have a positive effect for the lower income individuals UNLESS you keep the expenses for the items that they need at the same prices. If the prices of the goods that the lower income needs increase, that negates the effect of giving them more income.
If you really want to improve their ability to get what they need, you need to find a way to lower the cost of goods and services that the lower income need, and keep the prices of luxury items at current levels. The ratio of the buying power of the dollar is what needs to be addressed, not the minimum wage.

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Originally Posted by David88vert

You left out that when our wages increase, jobs that can be done overseas will be outsourced, as those labor rates are lower, and bring the company more profit. Imports become cheaper as well, which has a negative effect on locally established businesses.

Also, the talk of raising minimum wage is just a distraction from the real issue. What you really want to accomplish is raising the ability of each dollar to purchase more goods and services. In other words, raising the minimum wage does not have a positive effect for the lower income individuals UNLESS you keep the expenses for the items that they need at the same prices. If the prices of the goods that the lower income needs increase, that negates the effect of giving them more income.
If you really want to improve their ability to get what they need, you need to find a way to lower the cost of goods and services that the lower income need, and keep the prices of luxury items at current levels. The ratio of the buying power of the dollar is what needs to be addressed, not the minimum wage.

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I think thats too much for some people in this forum to comprehend. If they are advocating for raising minimum wage as a means to improve someones lifestyle, they dont understand concepts such as this.

Its inflation 101.

MAKE THINGS IN THE USA!!!!

What people dont understand is that their Iphones, Flat Screens, etc would cost $1000-$5000 if that happened. Then they would be saying "GREEDY US CORPORATIONS CHARGING TOO MUCH!"

Honestly, I want Peter Schiff to go out to these protests, and interview someone who is working for minimum wage at MCEEDEES and ask them what their resume looks like. I want to see who these people REALLY are. I suspect most of them are paid thugs from SEIU or they have a resume that reads like minimum wage workers should

Let's look at a small scale, if you don't mind. I am pretty familiar with San Francisco. If you aren't aware, they have their own minimum wage laws, which adjust every year, and are pegged to inflation (they did this back in 2003). As of this year, the new minimum wage is $10.55.

Anyone that has gone out there knows how expensive everything is there. A piece of toast and a coffee is $6, and keeps increasing in price constantly. A regular adult movie ticket is $16.50 (only $13.75 for your child) at the Metreon. Oh yeah, the median home price is now over $1 million. The CPI is 92.1 vs 75.4 for the average of the country (Atlanta scores 74.0).

So, how is that extra $3.30 an hour ($5K/yr) improving their quality of life, when their buying power keeps diminishing? It costs $84,133 a year for a family of four to live comfortably, but not extravagantly, in San Francisco, according to the Economic Policy Institute.
Federal Poverty Guidelines say a family of four is "officially" poor if it brings in less than $23,550 per year. Even 300 percent of that poverty line, $70,650, falls well below the comfortable threshold proposed by the Economic Policy Institute for Bay Area cities. So, should we triple minimum wage to $30/hr? Will that fix everything?

Minimum wage law backfires in American Samoa | Acton Institute

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Originally Posted by David88vert

Let's look at a small scale, if you don't mind. I am pretty familiar with San Francisco. If you aren't aware, they have their own minimum wage laws, which adjust every year, and are pegged to inflation (they did this back in 2003). As of this year, the new minimum wage is $10.55.

Anyone that has gone out there knows how expensive everything is there. A piece of toast and a coffee is $6, and keeps increasing in price constantly. A regular adult movie ticket is $16.50 (only $13.75 for your child) at the Metreon. Oh yeah, the median home price is now over $1 million. The CPI is 92.1 vs 75.4 for the average of the country (Atlanta scores 74.0).

So, how is that extra $3.30 an hour ($5K/yr) improving their quality of life, when their buying power keeps diminishing? It costs $84,133 a year for a family of four to live comfortably, but not extravagantly, in San Francisco, according to the Economic Policy Institute.
Federal Poverty Guidelines say a family of four is "officially" poor if it brings in less than $23,550 per year. Even 300 percent of that poverty line, $70,650, falls well below the comfortable threshold proposed by the Economic Policy Institute for Bay Area cities. So, should we triple minimum wage to $30/hr? Will that fix everything?

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No because tripling their buying power does 2 things

It triples everyone elses buying power, it diminishes everyones buying power.

Here is a SIMPLE example:
remember when everyone was up in arms over the 800 billion in stimulus money, and some people said "Just give the money directly to people"

IIRC every HOH would have gotten 250K?

Do you think every good would have stayed the same? If the government gave everyone a million dollars tomorrow, would everyone be able to purchase goods at the same prices today? The short answer is no, because the dollar would be destroyed and worth LESS.

If everyone was given a million dollars tomorrow, would Ferrari keep their prices the same?

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Originally Posted by David88vert

The last I checked, $1 hamburgers are not considered to be Veblen or Giffen goods, and as such, the demand would be negative, not positive, per the formula. This works with necessities, such as gasoline, but not luxuries, such as eating out. You can still easily carry a lunch, it does not prohibit you from eating.

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On a side note, lets examine this. Is food a necessity? If its cheaper for me to buy $1 hamburger for the day than it is to spend $5 on perishable food for the day, where would I be more likely to get my food?

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No, the lower income individual might not even have a car. That is secondary to what is discretionary.
The fact is, to the lower income person, eating out even for a hamburger is discretionary.

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Cheeseburger Bobby's is discretionary, BK value menu burger, not so much.

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And the person who makes more than minimum wage, and has a car, might choose not to get a car wash every week, and instead wash it themselves or cut back on the amount of washes, as they are now spending more for every other service that involves minimum wage employees.
The key is that you aren't producing more wealth, you are just rearranging people's priorities based upon a manipulated price point.

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I don't think anyone's looking to produce more wealth.

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It's hardly what he promised. Would you agree that it is a broken promise? If you think that it is not a broken promise, please explain how it is not.

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Broken promise? Lol. Gotta find any way we can turn a positive into a negative.

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Basically, there are less people at minimum wage than in the past, so isn't that a good thing? Are you wanting more people to be working at minimum wage, or less people at minimum wage?

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Less people on minimum wage is great. People making minimum wage less dependent on welfare would be better

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Where is this increase demand coming from? Have you even been to Econ 101? As prices rise, demand falls - learn the basics first. You aren't creating wealth, you are simply shuffling people around. People working at a Starbucks that closes will simply shift to working for Family Dollar. As you stated, Starbucks makes 11% profit. What happens when some of the stores that are already near the bottom of the list of profitable stores tip over the edge? If a $4.25 Chai tea jumps to $5, do you actually think that demand will stay the same or increase?

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You must have stopped at Econ 99. But you're sorta right.

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Let me ask you this question. how many college graduates have you interviewed this year in regards to giving them job offers? I have interviewed quite a few, and find that they fall into two camps - those that make the effort to prepare for an interview, and those that put forth no effort to even read a little online or watch a YouTube video. I've found that only about 1 out of 10 even are hirable for a job that requires no experience, only a slight bit of reading prior to an interview. And I'm not talking about minimum wage - jobs that pay $40-45K to start, and that have training included at full pay rate.
Oh yeah, but my real world experience really doesn't matter though, right?

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I don't do any hiring, but I don't know what that has to do with anything we're discussing here.

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

STOP, he doesnt like facts.

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I love facts. Still waiting on some. All I'm seeing is homebrewed economics here.

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

No because tripling their buying power does 2 things

It triples everyone elses buying power, it diminishes everyones buying power.

Here is a SIMPLE example:
remember when everyone was up in arms over the 800 billion in stimulus money, and some people said "Just give the money directly to people"

IIRC every HOH would have gotten 250K?

Do you think every good would have stayed the same? If the government gave everyone a million dollars tomorrow, would everyone be able to purchase goods at the same prices today? The short answer is no, because the dollar would be destroyed and worth LESS.

If everyone was given a million dollars tomorrow, would Ferrari keep their prices the same?

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I can't handle all this correlation=causation going on in here

"MINIMUM WAGE INCREASED. THIS IS WHY COST OF LIVING IS HIGH!"

LOL

What's happening in here is that you're all referencing these facts together like one causes the other. Fact one says cost of living went up, fact two says minimum wage went up. None of these facts suggest causation. You're jumping to your own conclusions here, because someone wants you to believe they're linked. "Common sense" might tell you that when one thing goes up another thing could go up with it, but the reality is that economics, and politics in general transcend "common sense"

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

No because tripling their buying power does 2 things

It triples everyone elses buying power, it diminishes everyones buying power.

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If you can prove this, have your work peer reviewed because there's a Nobel prize in economics waiting for you.

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Here is a SIMPLE example:
remember when everyone was up in arms over the 800 billion in stimulus money, and some people said "Just give the money directly to people"

IIRC every HOH would have gotten 250K?

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Are we talking about giving every American $200k, or are we talking about giving a small section of the workforce a cost of living raise? I get confused because topics get thrown around In here so much...

You dont believe facts, so why should i argue facts with you?

Its like beating a dead horse.

You think arbitrarily giving people more money doesnt affect the dollars value or cause inflation. the fact you dont believe these 2 things makes it impossible to argue or reason with you. You dont accept normal economic functions, therefore, i cannot argue economics with you.

Economic policies that allow the cheap jobs to exist, but encourage people to find better paying jobs based upon skillset and education is what works.

Finding ways to cheapen their dollars and pay them more doesnt work. It hasnt for 50 years. Did you skip my poverty chart? Minimum wage increases, poverty stays the same, more people on welfare. Cant explain that. you guys focus on all the wrong solutions. Tell the $7/hr worker to go EARN a $15 hour job. Oh theres not $15 hour jobs around for you? Blame who you voted for.

But the dirty little secret here is that the Dems dont really want this, they need a class of uneducated low wage workers to keep believing in their "evil rich guy OWES you" mantra.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I can't handle all this correlation=causation going on in here

"MINIMUM WAGE INCREASED. THIS IS WHY COST OF LIVING IS HIGH!"

LOL

What's happening in here is that you're all referencing these facts together like one causes the other. Fact one says cost of living went up, fact two says minimum wage went up. None of these facts suggest causation. You're jumping to your own conclusions here, because someone wants you to believe they're linked. "Common sense" might tell you that when one thing goes up another thing could go up with it, but the reality is that economics, and politics in general transcend "common sense"

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So you believe that if we raise minimum wage to $15/hr, no other ramifications would happen?

People making $15/hr now would just accept it? Prices wouldnt change? Inflation would not happen? Dollar would be worth the same? Nothing would happen, people would just make double in 1 sector and no other economic implications would happen.

The only saving grace is you are in the VAST majority that believe this. Paying your unskilled labor force double wages because they are unskilled, hurts THEM, it doesnt help them. It cheapens their buying power. We have already proven this.

Mcdonalds would not pay their work force DOUBLE and keep prices the same. You would pay the worker more, but their goods would now COST MORE due to the increase in their salaries for low cost goods. Low cost labor= they buy low cost goods. this happens with EVERY SINGLE SECTOR and industry that tries to artificially control markets.

The reason why I wont get a nobel peace price is because this is so common knowledge that it requires ZERO critical thinking to understand

free food and $15/hour...dont mind if i do

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

On a side note, lets examine this. Is food a necessity? If its cheaper for me to buy $1 hamburger for the day than it is to spend $5 on perishable food for the day, where would I be more likely to get my food?

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The grocery store, where you can get more food for less than that $1 burger - which wouldn't be staying at $1 anyway, as it would be going up in process.

When you go to a fast food restaurant, on which side of the counter do you see the minimum wage earners?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Cheeseburger Bobby's is discretionary, BK value menu burger, not so much.

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It is completely discretionary at any restaurant. Have you never packed a lunch?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I don't think anyone's looking to produce more wealth.

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Then you are doing nothing more than manipulating numbers, but keeping the values the same. This will mean that raising minimum wage does not have a significant positive effect, as it does not address the real issues.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Broken promise? Lol. Gotta find any way we can turn a positive into a negative.

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Read his own statements. He made them, and did not adhere to them.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Less people on minimum wage is great. People making minimum wage less dependent on welfare would be better

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That sounds great, unfortunately, it would not improve their situation.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

You must have stopped at Econ 99. But you're sorta right.

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No real answer? Here's one: You have almost no experience in real world business. I have a lot of it and at multiple levels and types.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I don't do any hiring, but I don't know what that has to do with anything we're discussing here.

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The real world - something you know nothing about.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I love facts. Still waiting on some. All I'm seeing is homebrewed economics here.

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I produce data, you produce unsubstantiated conjecture. Perhaps you should read my posts - they have the facts, which you claim to love.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/micha...74449619262905

Michael Chikilis admits TAX BREAKS CREATE JOBs......GASP

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

So you believe that if we raise minimum wage to $15/hr, no other ramifications would happen?

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didnt say that.

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The reason why I wont get a nobel peace price is because this is so common knowledge that it requires ZERO critical thinking to understand

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And this is why exactly there's so many people on the wrong side of most issues.

How you know Blank is done with a topic

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

didnt say that.

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Make vague statement , dont answer question........CHECK

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And this is why exactly there's so many people on the wrong side of most issues.

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make vague statement with no facts , snarky in nature , continue dodging.........check

I know im right, so theres nothing further to debate honestly

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Originally Posted by David88vert

The grocery store, where you can get more food for less than that $1 burger - which wouldn't be staying at $1 anyway, as it would be going up in process.

When you go to a fast food restaurant, on which side of the counter do you see the minimum wage earners?

It is completely discretionary at any restaurant. Have you never packed a lunch?

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I don't think you understand what "discretionary spending" is...

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No real answer? Here's one: You have almost no experience in real world business. I have a lot of it and at multiple levels and types.

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Experience that affords you tons of anecdotal evidence it seems.

There's definitely a real answer, just hoping you'd figure it out on your own.

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

nothing to add, understood. This is par for the course for you :)

I know im right, so theres nothing further to debate honestly

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Gotcha...

So common sense and personal experience are better than basic economic principles. I better let some economists know they're wasting all their time. Lol

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I don't think you understand what "discretionary spending" is...

Experience that affords you tons of anecdotal evidence it seems.

There's definitely a real answer, just hoping you'd figure it out on your own.

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I have experience in all levels of business in determining what is discretionary, and what is not - and Fortune 50 companies rely on my knowledge and experience. They believe that I have figured it out. How many believe that you have figured it out? What experience do you have?

We still await for you to produce any evidence at all.

I follow well documented economic principals and adhere to set legal policies. You don't seem to understand even the basics of economics.

I have managed more small businesses than you can count. I have more sales experience than i can type on this page. I owned my own business.

I now manage a growing $500K+ a year ecommerce branch that was doing $1200 a year before I took it over.

You have nothing to add to this discussion anymore, all you do is double talk and pick apart what you like and dont like. you have not shown you grasp any concepts that are basic entry level knowledge. Until you start answering questions and proving your case, theres nothing else to argue about.

FYI , answering questions with "LOL" or some other meaningless comment doesnt mean you answered anything.

Like usual, im awaiting some actual meat and potatoes in your argument, present some facts, not OTHER peoples half written articles, FACTS. Form your own opinion, and prove it. I have done it, you havent

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Originally Posted by David88vert

I have experience in all levels of business in determining what is discretionary, and what is not - and Fortune 50 companies rely on my knowledge and experience. They believe that I have figured it out.

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You might want to start pretending like you know what you're talking about then. Lol

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

Like usual, im awaiting some actual meat and potatoes in your argument, present some facts, not OTHER peoples half written articles, FACTS. Form your own opinion, and prove it. I have done it, you havent

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I'm good. As long as we're considering "common sense" and "zero critical thinking" as "meat and potatoes".

Lol

This is how you know you have won an argument vs Blank CD, when he cant defend his position, and has no thoughts of his own.

+1 Vteckidd

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Originally Posted by Vteckidd

How you know Blank is done with a topic


Make vague statement , dont answer question........CHECK




make vague statement with no facts , snarky in nature , continue dodging.........check

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FYI i called this few posts back

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

You might want to start pretending like you know what you're talking about then. Lol

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I have produced enough facts, data, and details for you already. You haven't been able to do the same.
It's pretty obvious to everyone who knows how economics works, and who has no knowledge of what he is talking about.

I would tell you to pretend, but you can't even pull that off with any degree of success.

Here some more info for you. This study looked at those who would benefit from an increase in the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $9.50, comparable to the level proposed by President Obama. Just over 11% of workers who would gain from an increase live in poor households. Over 63% of the workers who would gain are second or third earners in families making well over the federal poverty line. 43% of workers who would benefit live in households with income over $50,000 a year. So, how is raising the minimum wage going to help these people and boost the economy?
http://epionline.org/downloads/Sabia..._SEJ_Jan10.PDF

This study shows that nearly two-thirds of all minimum wage earners receive a raise with the first 1-12 months on the job. Entry-level jobs, providing many workers with their first job experience have employers will increase their pay to retain their better-skilled employees, as they gain experience. You are the only one that things experience is over-rated.
http://epionline.org/studies/macpherson_06-2004.pdf

In the 70s, President Ford signed the Earned Income Tax Credit. Low-income households receive a refundable tax credit, the amount of which is based on their other income. It acts as a guarantee of minimum income, rather than a minimum wage. As a worker's wages rise, the amount of EITC they can claim goes down. Their wages may go up, but the overall amount of household income they have may stay the same. The benefit of increasing the EITC, rather than a simple minimum wage hike, is that you can concentrate the benefits on those with lower incomes, and those raising a family.
Ask yourself - who are we wanting to help, and how can we best help that group, without negatively impacting everyone else.

It seems that this thread has run its couse. Locking.

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