This is up there with some of the stupidest times you've ever pressed the post button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
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This is up there with some of the stupidest times you've ever pressed the post button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
If you cant come to that conclusion with what i just posted, its not worth arguing. I could show you the color blue and you would argue against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
They are giving people CREDITS for having kids, NOT DEDUCTIONS, CREDITS. That is paying people to have kids, it doesnt get any simpler than that.
Well. If they're paying people to have kids now, still haven't recieved a check yet. They must have left me out.
I don't think it solves the problem because the problem is partly that people are not trained for the modern economy. Cutting the cord as you say doesn't magically make them more employable. As to when to cut it off, I don't think there is single number. It depends on many factors like economic conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
Sure those values may have gotten us where we are but you can't ignore the suffering they caused on the way either. You only care about the end goal and how fast we can get there. I care about the journey as well. Whether you like it or not, you have to accommodate my values because this is my country too and there are a lot of people who feel the same way. Our past does not dictate our future no matter how much you wish it did. Your refusal to compromise with people you don't agree with is exactly why nothing gets done in this country. If that's what you prefer to trying to find common ground, then congratulations, our government is working exactly how you should expect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
It's not an answer, it's just the lesser of two evils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
You can't raise a kid on a deduction if you have no income.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
Why are you having kids if you have no income?Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Plus these are CREDITS for having children, its really quite simple. People get POSITIVE FUNDS IE THE GOVT PAYS THEM based upon credits and deductions.
FTR , poor people arent alone in this, there are other tax credits, deductions that should be abolished IMO.
Post last years tax return. I guarantee you , that your tax liability was less because of a child, and you received income credits due to having a child..Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Would shock me if you didnt use those deductions or credits.
They arent trained to flip burgers? be a janitor? Mop floors? turn wrenches? Say hello at Wal mart? Fold clothes?Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Not being prepared for the modern economy is not my problem quite frankly. If you cant figure out how to be productive, then you get to work the "crappy job" on your dime, not mine. I dont want to work $7/hr jobs, so I dont sit around bitching about not being qualified or trained. I go out and get training. I put myself through school. I learned a trade/skill. its not hard.
at some point you should be forced to take a job that is paying you that same on welfare. Otherwise you are just being lazy
Where would you rank "god bless planned parenthood" on the list of the stupidest things that presidents have ever said?Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Most definitely. If you want to talk taxes we can. As you know, most corporate welfare is rigged through the tax code.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
I know exactly how taxes work. Govt takes money from citizens and spends it in a manner proscribed by Congress.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
The 'interest' is paid in the form of a newly employed graduate who is no longer cashing a govt check. Instead they are writing a check.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
We both know that is a VAST minority of recipients, but in those cases, they obviously chose a poor area of study. I have no problems giving them a second chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
What about it? Its a program that falls under the umbrella of welfare isnt it?Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
No you dont, you just want to try to put a negative label on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Giving people money for an endless time period isnt working, its time to try something different. Its time to start teaching people to fish instead of just handing them fish every first and fifteenth. Maybe those on the left will be proven correct in saying people on welfare dont want to be there and just need a way out. Personally, I think the number of people that want off welfare is FAR under 50%. Most would rather just cash a check instead of working for one.
I've posted the article before and I'm not looking for it again. Norway had something like 5 years of unemployment. Amazingly, most people were finding work within a couple months of their benefits ending. They shortened the time to get it to 3 years and the same thing happened. People find a way to work and take care of themselves when they are forced to. The same would be true with welfare programs.
I'm sure there is but I dont even know where to begin. No one thing is going to fix the financial mess we are in as a nation. I believe you have to start fixing the problem with those that dont contribute to society first.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
I actually think the idea of the government providing welfare recipients with jobs or teaming up with corporations to provide them jobs would be great. Although we do need to be careful about having skilled people forced into a menial job just because they can't find an opening for their skills immediately either so we need to balance it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
Easier said then done. Some people think that misery and pain are the only way to motivate people, I happen to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
Being able to hold out for a better job is a luxury............ how in the hell did we get to a point where people who need government aid to live are too good to take certain jobs. If you're too good to work a job, then you dont need government aid. I dont want my tax dollars going to you being able to hold out for a good job. Get a job, then look for a better job.......Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
I want to bang my head against the wall sometimes when i read your posts...... it's time for people to pop the government's titty out of their mouth and grow up.
This is an incredibly stupid mindset. Do you honestly think someone that is working a job that is below what their education and experience demands will just stop looking for better employment?Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
So what will? Handouts didnt work. Please and thank you didnt work. Whats left?
i wish all of those dumb ass kids would listen to this speech, but i know they wont.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNXwKGZHmDc
It's a luxury that may be good for society. Taking a minimum wage job can adversely impacts a person's ability to get a better job that has a greater societal benefit later. I'm not saying someone should hold out forever for the perfect job. Just that if a neurosurgeon gets fired, he shouldn't go work at McDonald's the next day just to have a job because another hospital may not want to hire the neurosurgeon who's last job was McDonalds. Unfortunately hiring managers can be just as irrational and judgemental as the rest of humanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Handouts were never intended to be motivation. I think greasing the path to success is the best bet. That means improving education and training programs, making it cheaper and more easily accessible. Working with companies to figure out what the demand is and funnel people in that direction. I think those sorts of plans would be much more effective than just telling people to figure it out on their own with little to no help.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
I disagree with this part of your post. bu's post are always well thought out and void of personal attacks or insults (at least that I remember). While we may have differing points of view, his posts always make me think. "Left or right" everybody has hypothetical answers that can solve every issue. Problem with that is, we are human beings and as such we tend to screw things up and not do things perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
I believe we all want the same thing, just disagree on how to get there or on how to do it.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Personal insults do nothing to add to the discussion. As a matter of fact they usually inhibit a good discussion. If someone feels the need to attack people personally, I see that as a personal weakness and a sign of immaturity. It is like a child throwing a temper tantrum. I must admit, Sinflix tests my strength on that sometimes as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echonova
I agree with the rest of your statement as well. Human desires and goals are often universal. That is another reason why personal attacks are so juvenile. It's as if people can't fathom different perspectives on an issue.
How many more education and training programs do we need? We already spend FAR more than any other country in the world on per capita education and lets be honest, we arent getting even a fraction of our money's worth. Community colleges couldnt possibly be any cheaper or accessible. It took me less than 2 weeks from the day I walked in the door to start classes at West Ga Tech or whatever they call it now and it cost me about $400 a quarter between books and registration. It would have been much less if I had been eligible for HOPE.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
If you cant figure out on your own that you need some kind of education or job skills in order to get and stay employed I dont think college or tech school is going to help either. I dont think the 20yo mother of 3 has any hope of living above the poverty level either.
Like you said, we aren't getting or moneys worth. We need to do things differently, not just add more schools doing the exact same thing. And when I say education, I am talking about starting from preschool. Our school systems range from terrible to mediocre at best. We need to do betterQuote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
How can you motivate someone with no hope? If you want that 20yo mother to benefit society, you're gonna have to start with her having hope to live a better life.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
This is the dumbest shit i've ever read in my life.
Why should my tax dollars support your career strategy? If you dont want mcdonalds on your resume, that's your choice. If you cant afford to make that choice, then oh well. If you're a neurosurgeon and want to hold out for another high profile job, that's fine. I would too...... but you do it on your own dime. If you dont have that dime, then you do what you have to do to take care of yourself.
This is why BU's post anger and frustrate me. I actually have respect for him and think he is a smart and rational guy.... when i see someone like him come to the conclusions that he does, it makes me lose a little bit of faith in humanity. Blank never angers me, because i expect him to be irrational and stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echonova
I'm also pretty sure that i do not want the same things as some of the people here.
On this point we agree completely. Our schools are failing us and its hurting us as a nation, not just those that have the bad to mediocre education. The logical starting point would be to get the bad and uncaring teachers out of the classroom, but to do that the unions would need to be busted or somehow convinced to play along. We both know thats not going to happen though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Anyone, no matter their current station or class, can live a better, more financially stable life. If they dont already know that, its because they dont want to. You simply cant motivate someone to seek more for themselves if they dont care to better themselves. There is a segment of our population that is simply content living off the govt and blaming others for their own failures.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
I was speaking in a broad ambiguous term like "world peace", but I understand what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
And I agree.
Did anyone watch ABC News' coverage tonight on the fast food workers strike? One of the key people they showed was a young woman, who's statement was promoted by ABC as the main statement of the workers, as support for why the minimum wage needs to be more than doubled, from $7.25/hr to $15/hr.
Her statement was that she has 8 people in her household that her paycheck has to support, and that they were barely getting by. For this reason, McDonalds needs to pay her $15/hr, and if they think that $7.25/hr is enough (minimum wage), then they need to live her life and see how hard it is to get by.
Here is the problem with that.
McDonalds is a business, not a charity. It is there to turn a profit for its shareholders, not to support 8 people in return for the work efforts of 1. The business has no business of knowing how many people you are trying to support - only to pay you an agreed to wage for the work agreed to. As a worker, you are trading your time and effort in exchange for compensation (financial, health, etc).
This argument that minimum wage is not enough is an idiotic one. If it is not enough, then go find a job that does pay enough. Arguing that businesses should give you more for the same work effort just because you are trying to support more people than you should is dumb, and shows that the people making minimum wage don't understand even what the concept of work actually is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David88vert
I have a more basic question. WTF would be you even try supporting that many people while working a fast food job? I know nothing of this lady and I didnt see the coverage of her, but I am going to assume that her real problem is generational bad decision making.
Code words for smarter than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
The truth is, it's fiscally cheaper to give people welfare than it is to let them die in the streets, or "fend for themselves" as you say.
Was it you the other day that said businesses should be charitable when it came to emergency healthcare? Might have been someone else...Quote:
Originally Posted by David88vert
Is that the line they're handing out now-a-days? Lol. All this time i thought they were there to make shitty hamburgers and fries. Maybe next time Im there, I should ask for the diversified portfolio combo with a side of derivatives.Quote:
It is there to turn a profit for its shareholders
Its not, really. It's been to low for too long. $15/hr may be a bit much, but you don't ask for 50 cents more and expect them to throw 3 more dollars at you. I hear the same BS excuse about how we're gonna have to start paying $20 for a hamburger if minimum wage goes up, but it seems that the opponents excuses never stand up to simple math.Quote:
This argument that minimum wage is not enough is an idiotic one.
Im pretty sure that isn't anyone's argument. But then again, I hear about wealthier people getting COL raises (not performance based raises) all the time. Maybe we should take that concept away too. Or maybe the cost of living only increases if you're making a lot more than minimum wage. Maybe if your making minimum wage, gas is still 1.05 a gallon, milk is 1.50, bread is .89 cents, and rent is 200/month. It should be raised, and it should be indexed to inflation and production. If the cost of living goes up, minimum wage should go up. If someone is getting a non-performance based raise making 100k a year, someone making 15k should get one too. It doesn't matter how much you make a year, bread, milk, water, gas all cost the same whether you're a millionaire or whether you work at Mickey Ds.Quote:
Arguing that businesses should give you more for the same work effort just because you are trying to support more people than you should is dumb, and shows that the people making minimum wage don't understand even what the concept of work actually is.
And we need to stop pretending like everyone's home situation is the same. Children happen, regardless of income. Period. It's been happening that way for hundreds of thousands of years. It will keep happening that way until the end of time.
I didn't say anything like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Clearly, you have no experience working in corporations. When you have worked for a couple of Fortune 50 companies for a few years, come back and try to speak with some knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
They actually broke down the cost of making a $1 hamburger in the same report. $0.34 was the cost of materials, around $0.23 cents was the approximate rent, $0.25 went to pay employees, and $0.18 was the actual profit. If there were to raise minimum wage from $7.25/hr to $15/hr, as they are being asked to, it would increase the cost by 25%, and raise the cost of that $1 burger to $1.25. A $6.00 meal would become $7.50. That's your simple math being presented by McDonalds, liberal ABC News, and McDonalds.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
I'm pretty sure that you are wrong (as I actually watched it), and ABC News would say that you are wrong also - as that is the exact message that they broadcast on air at 7pm tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Companies not owned by the government determine how they give raises and bonuses - that's called being in business. Are you advocating that the government take over all businesses and determine what compensation that someone should be entitled to?
You seem to think that life should be "fair". You haven't yet woken up to reality. Flipping burgers at McDonalds shouldn't be a career.
Well, since you were so sure about it, I did some research to see what they said about it, and it seems that McDonalds did indeed get in the business of selling shitty hamburgers and French fries, and not what you said they were in the business for. You can read more about what they do hereQuote:
Originally Posted by David88vert
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonalds
I also did some research on the company I used to work for, BP. THEY said they're in the business of energy exploration and conversion, and not what you said. You can read more about what they do here...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BP
Profitability to shareholders is a RESULT of what they're in business for.
So, wrong as usual.
Is that the message they broadcasted at 7? Or was that your interpretation of said message?Quote:
I'm pretty sure that you are wrong (as I actually watched it), and ABC News would say that you are wrong also - as that is the exact message that they broadcast on air at 7pm tonight.
I don't think I advocated or implied that at all.Quote:
Companies not owned by the government determine how they give raises and bonuses - that's called being in business. Are you advocating that the government take over all businesses and determine what compensation that someone should be entitled to?
The reality is, everyone should be able to eat and live. Neither of which is a luxury. Especially to those that put fourth a marginal effort. This idea that people are making careers flipping burgers and living off welfare doesn't necessarily exist and is really just a generality that pundits and bloggers and generally angry and less knowledgable people have fabricated, and that you and others have latched on to, because its been presented to you ipse dixit. I would venture to say a very very small percentage of people who flip burgers for McDonald's woke up one morning and thought "Gee, I want to be the best shitty burger flipper this company's ever seen". You're using the exception as the rule so to speak, and that's really not how it works, in reality.Quote:
You seem to think that life should be "fair". You haven't yet woken up to reality. Flipping burgers at McDonalds shouldn't be a career.
So, assuming this is 100% correct (albeit limited) information, and the math works out as it should, and I could effectively double the minimum wage at McDonalds by charging an extra quarter for my dollar burger and current consumption rates remained stable, would this topple a US economy?Quote:
Originally Posted by David88vert
We know that marginal propensity to consume is higher in individuals with lower disposable income and lower in individuals with higher disposable income, what do you think will happen to the extra $8/hr: Will it be spent or saved?
You are proving to be less logical and more of a troll every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Thats the business they are in, not why they are in business.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
No, its the result of good decision making. This is the exact opposite of the type of decision making of a non management employee above the age of 20.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
This is a cute little rant and all, but what basis does it have in reality? Who is saying someone shouldnt have the ability to eat and live? It isnt McDonalds fault their employees are easily replaced and therefore, not worthy of higher salaries. If someone is working there after they get out of HS, or college if they go that route, that is the result of their own decisions. Its not McDonalds or BK's or Dominos job to support your lifestyle. It is on you to gain the necessary education and experience to find employment that will support your lifestyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
If i was jobless, on welfare, food stamps and sat at home smoking weed all day, you would be in here defending my honor.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
I find that hard to believe.... seeing as how i walk past homeless people all the time and it doesnt cost me a dime.
Everyone does have the right to eat and live. I like eating lobster and living with a bunch of shit to play with. That's why i put in the work to get a good job. If people dont like mcdonalds and riding the bus, they should do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Running a cash register at a gas station is not the same as working with executive management. When you have put some time into helping executives scope out a 25 year plan for a company, let me know.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Generating profit is the whole reason that a company exists, you believe that their goal is to sell fried burgers and greasy fries as a favor to society? LOL
Actually, it is what they broadcast - I'm not interpreting it. Your attempt to imply that it is not is a failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Re-read your statement and then work on improving your communication skills then. How exactly were you proposing that businesses be stopped from giving COL increases? Wouldn't that be through a law? If not, how would you enforce it?Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
I agree with the italized part.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
I can tell you from firsthand experience that you are 100% wrong that people are not making careers flipping burgers. When I was first out of high school, I worked at a local Burger King for a couple of months. I was the youngest person that worked there. The two ladies that made biscuits every morning had been there for close to 20 years each, and received government assistance, and provided for their families off their salary. Our main guy that made burgers during the lunch rush also had been making fast food burgers for over 20 years, and was very good at it. He did not have kids, but did support his mom as she lived with him in his rental house. Only one of them could afford a car. All three of them were white (not black), and all made more than minimum wage, but only by a little bit. None of them were looking for a better paying job, they just went day-by-day, with no ambition to move from their current employment.
These aren't exceptions to the rule - go walk in you local fast food restaurants at lunchtime and see if you have just kids working, or grown adults that have been doing this for awhile.
My statements haven't come from others - I've seen it in real life. You should try it sometime.
This information was broadcast on ABC News, so you can research and review it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
If you were to double minimum wage, then costs would rise 25%, that is what they made very clear. Anyone who has taken a Econ 101 course would know that as cost rises, demand decreases, so it is unlikely that current consumption rates would remain the same.
One industry, like fast food, does not have the capability to topple the US economy - I would hope that you already know that. To even ask that question is not logical.
Spent.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
What you seem to not comprehend is that this would not be a "raise for fast food workers". This would affect all industries that have workers currently paid under the "new minimum wage rate". We both know that this new rate will not be $15/hr - that would be too big of an increase, too quickly. The effect would be devasting on the economy, as employers would adjust their rates to keep their profit margins, making the prices of many items rise quickly. Of course, the prices on some items can only rise so much, or enough people will quit buying them, causing the businesses to close, and putting those workers in the unemployment line. Those striking workers don't think about that though, and it appears that you don't think about that either.
Ok. If you took away welfare altogether at this very second, do you think that homeless population would increase or decrease?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
I did a tiny bit more than run a cash register.Quote:
Originally Posted by David88vert
Maybe you should ask McDonalds why they're in business.Quote:
Generating profit is the whole reason that a company exists, you believe that their goal is to sell fried burgers and greasy fries as a favor to society? LOL
It was a hypothetical statement.Quote:
Re-read your statement and then work on improving your communication skills then. How exactly were you proposing that businesses be stopped from giving COL increases? Wouldn't that be through a law? If not, how would you enforce it?
Seems as if your statements are anecdotal evidenceQuote:
I can tell you from firsthand experience that you are 100% wrong that people are not making careers flipping burgers. When I was first out of high school, I worked at a local Burger King for a couple of months. I was the youngest person that worked there. The two ladies that made biscuits every morning had been there for close to 20 years each, and received government assistance, and provided for their families off their salary. Our main guy that made burgers during the lunch rush also had been making fast food burgers for over 20 years, and was very good at it. He did not have kids, but did support his mom as she lived with him in his rental house. Only one of them could afford a car. All three of them were white (not black), and all made more than minimum wage, but only by a little bit. None of them were looking for a better paying job, they just went day-by-day, with no ambition to move from their current employment.
These aren't exceptions to the rule - go walk in you local fast food restaurants at lunchtime and see if you have just kids working, or grown adults that have been doing this for awhile.
My statements haven't come from others - I've seen it in real life. You should try it sometime.
I would say the demand curve for a dollar hamburger is a bit flatter than other things...Quote:
Originally Posted by David88vert
Ok, so we went from talking about McDonalds to the entire group of people making minimum wage, and we went from talking about doubling minimum wage, to not doubling minimum wageQuote:
What you seem to not comprehend is that this would not be a "raise for fast food workers". This would affect all industries that have workers currently paid under the "new minimum wage rate". We both know that this new rate will not be $15/hr - that would be too big of an increase, too quickly. The effect would be devasting on the economy, as employers would adjust their rates to keep their profit margins, making the prices of many items rise quickly. Of course, the prices on some items can only rise so much, or enough people will quit buying them, causing the businesses to close, and putting those workers in the unemployment line. Those striking workers don't think about that though, and it appears that you don't think about that either.
We know that $15 is a starting point for a negotiation. So lets say they settle on $10, which is reasonable.
Using our same marginal propensity to consume, what do you think people making minimum wage are going to do with the extra $3/hr? Will it be spent or saved?
I doubt that you had the ear of the executives of BP. And certainly not included in any long-term strategy planning.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
I know why McDonalds is in business. They certainly aren't there to take money from the shareholders and give it to the employees.
So, you can use hypotheticals and it should be taken as a serious discussion point, but if I use real life experience, then that is anecdotal evidence, and shouldn't really be considered? Considering that you have no scientific or statistical evidence to support your statements, it appears that once again, I am the only one bringing any evidence to the table.