What is Fair? (Taxes)

[BanginJimmy]

The first definition - "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods". The government/people collectively own the police and fire departments, administer them, and they distributes those services to the people.

If this is the definition you want to use then so be it. I guess you think fires and crime are the production they control.

My real question to you here is... Is every conceivable socialist program inherently bad?

Bad in intentions or bad as in poorly run and managed.

I cant think of a single socialist society that isnt poorly run.

I already agreed Obama has some socialistic elements. Do you say Obamacare is a socialist program? If so, how would you describe a single payer system that would differentiate it from Obamacare?

If I had to pick I would say fascist.

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[bu villain]

If this is the definition you want to use then so be it. I guess you think fires and crime are the production they control.

No it is the service of law enforcement and fire control/rescue they control. If you want to argue that providing essential services is meaningfully different than production of a physical product that's up to you but we are getting further from the central argument which is still:

The government collects revenue unequally from the citizens and redistributes that money unequally in various ways (e.g., tax cuts, government services, social programs etc). That alone is not enough to label the people who advocate such initiatives as socialists. Both sides of the isle support redistribution, only in different configurations and yet neither side are socialist as they both largely advocate private markets.

Bad in intentions or bad as in poorly run and managed.

I cant think of a single socialist society that isnt poorly run.

I'm not advocating a completely socialist society, far from it. As I said before, there are more than two choices. I feel our democracy is poorly run (despite it being run better than most) but that doesn't mean there is no merit in democracy and capitalism. Instead of looking at it in a such a black and white way, I want to take the best ideas from many different ideologies.

If I had to pick I would say fascist.

Then you have a completely exagerated view of what is fascist. Most first-world countries have some sort of single payer system. To label that as fascist is farcicle. Unless you are arguing the representative governments of all these countries are shams, the laws they pass, by definition, can't be fascist as the primary feature of facism is that it is dictatorial not representative.

[BanginJimmy]

Most first-world countries have some sort of single payer system. To label that as fascist is farcicle.

Single payer is the perfect definition of socialist.

Unless you are arguing the representative governments of all these countries are shams, the laws they pass, by definition, can't be fascist as the primary feature of facism is that it is dictatorial not representative.

I guess I wasnt clear. Obamacare is a rooted in fascism. Privately owned companies with complete govt control.

I did make it clear that I only though Obama was fascist on his economic issues.

[bu villain]

Single payer is the perfect definition of socialist.

I agree but that's not what you said before. You said Obamacare was socialist and single payer was fascist.

I guess I wasnt clear. Obamacare is a rooted in fascism. Privately owned companies with complete govt control.

I did make it clear that I only though Obama was fascist on his economic issues.

Still not facism. Government control is not fascist when the government is elected by the people.

[BanginJimmy]

I agree but that's not what you said before. You said Obamacare was socialist and single payer was fascist.

If I did, I was backwards. Obamacare is fascist, single payer is socialist.

Still not facism. Government control is not fascist when the government is elected by the people.

And again. Obama's economic philosophy is rooted in fascism. I understand that we are not a fascist country.

Obama is stretching a bit towards supreme power though.

First is was the Black Panthers and simply ignoring voter suppression and intimidation.
Then it was sidestepping bankruptcy law for the UAW.
Then is was ordering the justice dept to ignore federal immigration laws, in effect, offering amnesty without congressional approval
Then it was sidestepping Congress in welfare work requirements.
Now Obama is offering to pay legal bills and judgements to defense contractors if they agree to violate the WARN Act.

[bu villain]

Obama is stretching a bit towards supreme power though.

First is was the Black Panthers and simply ignoring voter suppression and intimidation.
Then it was sidestepping bankruptcy law for the UAW.
Then is was ordering the justice dept to ignore federal immigration laws, in effect, offering amnesty without congressional approval
Then it was sidestepping Congress in welfare work requirements.
Now Obama is offering to pay legal bills and judgements to defense contractors if they agree to violate the WARN Act.

You forgot the worst one of all in my opinion: The ordered killing of American citizens without trial. This is one of the main reasons I will probably vote for Johnson. I still do not believe facism is the proper word to describe our ongoing expansion of executive power as it will roll back as soon as we stop voting for people who want to expand it.