Are we blind, or playing stupid?

[geoff]

Ok, there are alot of posts to respond to, so for the sake of responding so you might understand, I will address each one of you individually.

Sinfix:

What did God accomplish by punishing David with war and bloodshed? how did he use women in David's life as pawns for such punishment? are people just God's play things to be moved around?

David was the first appointed king of Israel by God Himself. David was held to a higher standard than the rest of society, much like one in power (president of USA) would be today. When he sinned against God he also sinned against the people as he was to lead by example. The punishment of war and bloodshed was that David would not rule a kingdom of peace. He would be stressed and always on alert to threats coming to destroy him.

God gives an army the power to conquer a city, they do, then they take slaves and rape women. Now he's left with a new group of people that he just empowered that need to be punished? Seems like an endless cycle.

First of all you are implying that every city that was conquered meant every woman was raped. The fact is that they took some of the women in and made them their wives not just some sex toy that they abused and then tossed aside. Yes it is an endless cycle, God blesses people and we sin against Him. The punishment for sin is death, yet God shows us mercy and gives us endless opportunity to turn it around. Much how society treats convicts. Do you believe that instead of someone going in and out of jail that they should be executed after 3 or four felonies? Funny how when we jail these convicts; they serve time to be "rehabilitated", we release them and they break the law again only to be rehabilitated again. We do this endless cycle and are considered "just" yet when God does it you seem He is playing games. That does not seem very rational to me.

It being "normal" for a daughter to be sold into slavery doesnt make it right. Why doesnt the bible just address that as being wrong? why isnt slavery and rape condemned in the bible? The daughter accepting this fate doesnt make it right either. To say she would "want" to is a bold statement. You act as if women had any choice about anything in that time period. Of course she wanted to..... over death.

I have said it many times before, God does not condone either. For the sake of this becoming an extremely long response I will post the Biblical view of slavery and rape after I respond to blankcd.
If my family was starving and I could not find work, I would sell myself to slavery that they might be ok. You might say that it is wrong but thats how loyalty and self sacrifice works.

If God doesnt involve himself in man's choices, how did he decide the fate of so many? Why couldnt David's wives chose to be loyal to him?

He doesn't have to involve Himself in man's choices to decide their fate. We have free will. He set up the rewards and consequences and gave a guideline on how one is to conduct themselves. Cause and Effect is a natural law my friend. If you sleep with a woman who has aids and you did not use a condom, guess what, you now probably have aids. It's not that David's wives were unloyal to him. They were taken from him in conquest. Everything he held dear was stripped from him.

You cant play both sides of the fence..... you cant claim that God has a part in all of the victories, then blame man for all of the wrong doing. God's might allowed a city to be conquered, but man's free will allowed women to be raped and slaves to be had, it doesnt work that way.

Excuse me but how can you put the deeds of the few on God? He did not make them sin. Your quote above is like stating that America as a whole had victory in the war in Iraq, some soldiers decided to mock prisoners and take pictures and abuse them. That means that America as a whole is supportive of this and condones it. No sir, that's not how it works. You can very much separate the deeds of men from the powers in charge.

If i own a business that does house cleaning and i send a murderer to clean your house and he kills your family. That is my fault. If God empowered people to overthrow a city and take slaves and women, then he empowered them to take slaves and rape women. You cant accept the victory without accepting the casualty.

If you hire a man and he kills my family, you are not to blame....the man is. If you hire a man TO kill my family, then yes you also have fault. God did not instruct the Israeli people to go take a city and rape the women.

How many wars have been fought over religion????

Just because someone or some peoples fly the banner of Christ or Allah or Buddha and start a war does not mean they are fighting for their religion or that god. Many a times they fight in the name of God only to further their own personal lust for power and ambitions. Hitler was supposedly catholic, did God sanction him to slaughter the jews? Do the actions of Islamic Jihadists' mean that every muslim should be feared as a terrorist?

So i guess the crusades was the same as christians holding a mobile job fair and going around giving people the option of accepting the terms of christianity?

You must not know your history on the crusades. They were in fact a response to muslim raids and invasion for hundreds of years. Check here...History of the Crusades

Slavery is a touchy issue due to the dark history surrounding it. Is slavery wrong, yes. Did it happen, yes. Does is show bad of Gods' character, no. I will show below what the Bible says of slavery.

I have a 15 year old daughter. I have always told her that if she has sex before she is married that she will no longer be welcome under my roof and that i will ship her off to boarding school until shes 18 and never speak to her again. She is well aware of this strict punishment that i predetermined. A week ago i find out that my 15 year old daughter is pregnant, but she swears on her life that she has never had sex. My neighbor tells me that it must be a miracle, i think she's just lying to me. What do you think?

Not exactly sure what the point of this is? In this scenario I would assume that your neighbor is full of crap and deflowered your daughter and your daughter is scared for her life to tell you the truth.

When you say God used David's wives to punish him.... How? How did God have control over David's wives and what they did. God had the power to make David's wives not be loyal to him but he didnt have the power to stop "his" soldiers from raping women?

You misunderstood the scriptures my friend. David's wives were taken from him, they did not cheat on him.

As you said, you are no Biblical scholar, and you would probably readily admit that you have not read much of it. It is understandable that a lot of it would not make sense to you. I am fine with questions. I am not fine with someone taking a scripture and twisting it or showing it out of context to match their agenda or view.

[geoff]

Blank cd:

Good, cause I don't think you even understand what you're saying. Lol.

Typical atheist response. You don't add anything to the debate and dodge questions. Instead you simply say , " haahaa dummy, your stupid and wrong". Good job sir, you sure showed me.

So the bible says "slave", but means "paid employees"? Why the inconsistency? Something change in translation/revision?

Once again taking words out of context. I believe I used this to describe those slaves that willingly sold themselves to a master.

Didnt see that in the commandments, must have missed it.

I will address this and the matter of slavery in detail in my next post. Give me time to gather the scripture.

Rape and adultery, two different things.

Huh? Did you just ignore all other 30 something odd words that were included in my response? How did you interpret me saying rape and adultery were the same? I stated that the man who raped the woman would have to marry her and could not marry another according to the law. If he divorced her, he would be commiting adultery. It may not seem big to you, but to them, they tried to live according to Mosaic Law and to please God.

Hardly. Lol. You've just shown that you can interpret the bible different than me.

Once again, typical atheist comment. You completely ignored my sound evidence and dismissed it as insufficient. I did not merely show you a different interpretation of the scripture. I showed you the literal interpretation. You showed me a skewed view on the scripture that match your faith atheist agenda.

So, for a book open to interpretation, the literal way I interpret it is wrong, and the way YOU interpret it is correct, am I right, or am I off base with this?

And yes, I and the rest of my fellow humans are the ultimate authority for morality.

You did not interpret it a literal way. To be interpreted literally would mean you read it and then understand the words as they are written without any sort of hidden meaning. What you did is read a scripture from a book you have obviously not read about a religion you obviously know nothing about and then stuck your interpretation of it into the mix.

I could name quite a few religions and Christian churches that condone it. And science has shown that homosexual behavior occurs in nature, as well as humans. So it is in fact a natural behavior.

Oh please show me a religion that says its normal for same sex marriages and condones homosexuality. Please show where it says it in said religions holy scriptures or book. As far as Christians condoning it, they are no Christians at all. They teach against the scriptures that they claim is their ultimate authority. And yes it happens in nature but as said by randomguy that it does not make it natural or right. Incest is also found in nature. So is sex of an older gender with one that has just come to maturity. Yet we do not condone a mother/son, brother/sister/ cousins sexual relationship. We do not condone a 40 year old man having sex with a girl that just reached maturity ( right around the age of 13 ). So, why do some condone same sex relationships but condone incest and pedophilia even if it is consented? And you and the rest of humanity are the standard of high morality? Hmmmm how many genocides have taken place without a religious base? I can name what happened in Somalia, Burma, hitler...ect....

And right and wrong have been open to interpretation by man kind during certain eras. Slavery for example. You point out that it homosexuality happens in nature and does not take away anyone else's rights....true...but neither does incest or pedophilia or bestiality, or necrophilia. So what are your views on that? I do not judge gays as people. Yes when I think of homosexual sex i think its disgusting much like a gay man would think a vagina is nasty. Do I hate them, no. Do I agree with their choice of lifestyle, no. Do I think homosexuality should be considered "normal", no. It is unnatural in the fact that men and men and women and women are not designed to have intercourse with one another. The anatomy just does not add up. And take religion or God out of the debate, two men and two women can never reproduce, and sex in its most primitive form is a tool for reproduction. You do not have to agree with my point of view on this...you asked me a question and I gave you my own personal oppinion. Do not make me out to be some kind of insensitive prick or monster because I don't support gay marriage.

[geoff]

I don't care about judging others like that or telling others what to do. I'm stating that just because something exists in nature doesn't mean anything. Even in nature you can see self-destructive behaviors. I guess this can go much deeper than the scope of this convo and at the end of the day it'll turn back into apples and oranges. It'll probably come down to what you consider to be the meaning of life or the importance of biological progeny.

To answer your question, I don't think it infringes on anyone else. I also don't think anyone can tell someone who to pair with, but I think it's a common notion that organized religions are (allegedly) "life frameworks for success". Your genes likely won't be carried on should you voluntarily stray from this "framework", which allegedly seeks to guide you to success (depending on religion, either spiritually or worldly). Success is subjective, but imagine a colony of only homosexuals existed on an island, somehow. How long would their kind survive? Surely genes wont flow as well as in the general population. Is this good/bad? Should whatever happens after the scope of your life matter to you? Lol probably the fundamental argument.

very well said, but be careful, you might be made out to be primitive, barbaric, or insensitive and trying to deny simple freedoms with views like this.

[geoff]

Scripture against slavery.
Exodus 21:16-"He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."
Leviticus 25:17" ye shall not therefore oppress one another."
Deuteronomy 15:9-10 "Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him naught; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee."

Deuteronomy 24:14-15 "Thou shalt not oppress a hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates: at his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it, for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee."

Isaiah 58:6-"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? ... To undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"

Matthew 23:10- "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Galatians 3:28-"There is neither bond nor free ... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Amos 1:6-9 "Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they carried away captive the whole captivity, to deliver them up to Edom:But I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof:And I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod, and him that holdeth the sceptre from Ashkelon, and I will turn mine hand against Ekron: and the remnant of the Philistines shall perish, saith the Lord God.Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Tyrus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they delivered up the whole captivity to Edom, and remembered not the brotherly covenant."

Scriptures against rape:

Deuteronomy 22:25-27 "But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her."

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 *If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

And the New Testament furthers this:

Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Sexual immorality includes adultery, premarital sex, incest, rape, homosexuality, bestiality, necrophilia, ect...and I already know theses scriptures will not be a satisfactory answer to you and that's fine. I am showing you scripture evidence that God does not condone these things, this, with a historical understanding of Israel in this era and basic insight into the scriptures as a whole will show my point. Accept it or not, doesn't matter how you twist it, truth is truth.

[cyb593]

The Bible was always meant to be a "GUIDE," that's it. Not what is for sure going to happen. The Bible is a lot of stories written by MEN. Not GOD!! Remember this, where there is man there is error. Not to mention, how many times it was translated from language to language? What about the other books that were rejected by the council of Nicea? Why weren't those counted. Those books could completely contradict some of these other ones and a lot of versus do. Hence the reason it is supposed to lead you down a narrower path not show you exactly what to do. It is analogous to Aesops Fables, it is supposed to show you right from wrong, as a guide.

Don't get me wrong, i am a Christian. But a lot of what the Bible says should not be taken literally. At the very least, it should be viewed through the lens of the cultural context that it was written in. For example, according to the Bible you shouldn't cut your hair, touch a pig, eat shellfish, etc. And lets not forget all of the priests that were using the Bible (only one copy, held in the church, and written in Latin) to control there congregations when common people had almost no education so they couldn't read it themselves. What makes you think the translators didn't have their say in what the Bible translated too?

You should base your life on what is right and do what is best for your family. Teach them to do good and keep them from doing evil. Introduce them to God and let me pick what path they want to take. I think a lot people look way too deeply into arguing what religion is right and what is wrong. People fail to realize that the majority of them get you to the same place, God. It might be under a different name, but they are all worshiping the Big Man upstairs. Why can't it be this way? Furthermore, i feel that the main purpose of the Bible is to convey the immeasurable depth of God's love for all people. It should never be used as a weapon against others, to point out faults and tear people down.

As for the sex before marriage, if someone is in love with someone else, committed exclusively to that person, acting responsibly, and willing to accept the physical and emotional consequences, then why not? The government's piece of paper (marriage license) doesn't mean anything in Gods eyes.

As for the end of the world, it will come when it is time. You have nothing to fear if you have an understanding of your Creator and try to live as an example of His love either way.

[Sinfix_15]

Ok, there are alot of posts to respond to, so for the sake of responding so you might understand, I will address each one of you individually.

Sinfix:


David was the first appointed king of Israel by God Himself. David was held to a higher standard than the rest of society, much like one in power (president of USA) would be today. When he sinned against God he also sinned against the people as he was to lead by example. The punishment of war and bloodshed was that David would not rule a kingdom of peace. He would be stressed and always on alert to threats coming to destroy him.


First of all you are implying that every city that was conquered meant every woman was raped. The fact is that they took some of the women in and made them their wives not just some sex toy that they abused and then tossed aside. Yes it is an endless cycle, God blesses people and we sin against Him. The punishment for sin is death, yet God shows us mercy and gives us endless opportunity to turn it around. Much how society treats convicts. Do you believe that instead of someone going in and out of jail that they should be executed after 3 or four felonies? Funny how when we jail these convicts; they serve time to be "rehabilitated", we release them and they break the law again only to be rehabilitated again. We do this endless cycle and are considered "just" yet when God does it you seem He is playing games. That does not seem very rational to me.


I have said it many times before, God does not condone either. For the sake of this becoming an extremely long response I will post the Biblical view of slavery and rape after I respond to blankcd.
If my family was starving and I could not find work, I would sell myself to slavery that they might be ok. You might say that it is wrong but thats how loyalty and self sacrifice works.


He doesn't have to involve Himself in man's choices to decide their fate. We have free will. He set up the rewards and consequences and gave a guideline on how one is to conduct themselves. Cause and Effect is a natural law my friend. If you sleep with a woman who has aids and you did not use a condom, guess what, you now probably have aids. It's not that David's wives were unloyal to him. They were taken from him in conquest. Everything he held dear was stripped from him.


Excuse me but how can you put the deeds of the few on God? He did not make them sin. Your quote above is like stating that America as a whole had victory in the war in Iraq, some soldiers decided to mock prisoners and take pictures and abuse them. That means that America as a whole is supportive of this and condones it. No sir, that's not how it works. You can very much separate the deeds of men from the powers in charge.


If you hire a man and he kills my family, you are not to blame....the man is. If you hire a man TO kill my family, then yes you also have fault. God did not instruct the Israeli people to go take a city and rape the women.


Just because someone or some peoples fly the banner of Christ or Allah or Buddha and start a war does not mean they are fighting for their religion or that god. Many a times they fight in the name of God only to further their own personal lust for power and ambitions. Hitler was supposedly catholic, did God sanction him to slaughter the jews? Do the actions of Islamic Jihadists' mean that every muslim should be feared as a terrorist?


You must not know your history on the crusades. They were in fact a response to muslim raids and invasion for hundreds of years. Check here...History of the Crusades

Slavery is a touchy issue due to the dark history surrounding it. Is slavery wrong, yes. Did it happen, yes. Does is show bad of Gods' character, no. I will show below what the Bible says of slavery.

Not exactly sure what the point of this is? In this scenario I would assume that your neighbor is full of crap and deflowered your daughter and your daughter is scared for her life to tell you the truth.


You misunderstood the scriptures my friend. David's wives were taken from him, they did not cheat on him.

As you said, you are no Biblical scholar, and you would probably readily admit that you have not read much of it. It is understandable that a lot of it would not make sense to you. I am fine with questions. I am not fine with someone taking a scripture and twisting it or showing it out of context to match their agenda or view.

I dont guess there's anyway to prove to you the extent i've explored christianity. I'm not some guy who went to a rock concert and then became anti-christian because i thought it was the cool thing to do. I was raised christian with christian parents. I started going to church around age 4-5 and went to church into my 20s. The first half of that experience, i believed. I've probably read 75% of the bible. At one point in my life my goal was to read the bible entirely, but as time went on i faded away from that. I havnt picked up a bible in 5 years. I cant quote and go into details about bible references enough to be credible in your eyes, but i know the extent that i've "given christianity a chance". Growing up, everyone i was around was christian, all of my friends were christian, i had no negative influence towards christianity what so ever. I believed everything about it. I remember praying at night when i heard my parents arguing and worrying about what would happen to people when they died.

At some point the doubt started creeping in and i always kept it to myself. The only thing that turned me away from the bible was the bible. Things i read started to not make sense. Things i listened to in church started to not make sense. I tried to believe and had no reason or benefit of not believing. Being a nonbeliever would only alienate you when everyone around you is a christian. I almost married the preacher's daughter. Everyone ive ever been around was a christian. I went to a preppy school where everyone was christian. Nobody convinced me to feel the way i feel.

One day you just wake up, look yourself in the mirror and be honest that you dont believe. Brainwashed by the fear of punishment and hell you're scared to think it or say it...... but once you look yourself in the mirror and realize that it isnt real, it's like the weight of the world is lifted off your shoulders. The moment i stopped believing my life improved so much. No more stress, no more worry, no more thinking about death.

I didnt stop enjoying the company of the people i was surrounded with, i just dont believe in it. Not one fiber of my existence believes that Jesus is real. Not one molecule that makes me who am believes .00000001% that Jesus is real. I havnt believed for over a decade now. I've been to church 100s of times since i stopped believing. I'm not in a ACDC shirt sitting in the back row giving people dirty looks, i look just like everyone else, i clap when they sing, i shake hands and talk to people...... but i dont believe 1 word of any of it.

I had a roommate for about 3 years and he was a major christian, prayed every time he ate, always prayed at night before bed. Sometimes id walk thru the living room and see him on his knees praying on the couch. He was aware that i was an atheist and he would always say that i was probably one of the most moral person that he knew and it absolutely amazed him that i was an atheist. I've slept inside a preacher's house 100s of times, sat at their table, ate and talked with them.... you wouldnt know i was an atheist.

My life is better without religion. It's that simple. The same way you probably feel sorry for me when you read this, thinking about what i am missing out on, i feel the same way about you. I feel sorry that you cant experience what i do and feel the peace that i feel.

anyways, long story short.... you couldnt be more wrong about my experience with christianity. I have read the bible, ive lived the church experience and it wasnt for me. When i was 12, i played mortal kombat till my fingers bled..... but i cant remember a single finishing move if you asked me. That doesnt mean it didnt happen. I've read 75% of the bible, but i havnt picked it up in 5+ years.

[geoff]

2timothy3:16- "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Acts 2:38,39-"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

Matthew 23:36-40 "36*“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38*This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

1john 4:1-6 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

Man I could go on and on with hundreds of examples where you are wrong. How can you profess to be a Christian (Christ like) and believe there are many ways to God? Every word you said contradicted not only the Bible but the entire faith itself. Do not be confused with teachings of false prophets that would make you to conform to the world and turn you into a "modern liberal" Christian. We are to be in the world not of it. You deny the Word of God as authority and write it off as a work of man to guide us. And the part about sex before marriage...not one in the Bible or in the Christian faith does it condone this. Either you are misguided and confused or a safe atheist. By that I mean that you profess to believe yet deny the commanded lifestyle of righteousness. One who lives how they please but believes simply being "good" is enough. I direct this scripture at exactly what you said and those who follow this belief.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

[geoff]

I believe even atheists would know that what your saying does not follow the teachings of Christ.

[geoff]

Sinfix: I appreciate your honesty. I also appreciate you being so open. Don't think that you are the only one that has had doubts or what not. Also, don't think that you are the only one with worldly experience. I have done just about everything under the sun. I am not the poster boy image of Christianity. We have different stories and different end results, but we both faced the same thing. I was raised in church till 10. It was in the Romanian language and I never understood it or had "faith" from 10 till 19 I was not around anything Christian. I drank, smoked bud, partied, slept around, ect...one day that all got old. Some how some way I came to know God again. This time in a deeper more personal way. I have eye witness miracles and been the subject of some. I know from my own personal experience God is real. It has been a year since I had anything to do with church (my own struggles and battles there). I since slipped back into the man I was before Christ found me. I admit this to my shame. You and I are now the same. I have belief but live as if I didn't, that puts me in the same boat as those that do not believe at all. A Christian will face trials in life that test ones faith to the limit of breaking. What saddens me most of all about your story was that you couldn't hold on to yours. You reached a transition in your faith. One where God no longer saw you as a "babe" that could only take the work as "milk to a babe" but rather as a man whom was ready to recieve the "meat" of the Word and go to a level of spirituality that few men obtain. To say you could have been great in the Kingdom is putting it lightly. Again I am saddened that you could not experience that. You say you feel sorry for me, don't. I have tasted much of what the world has to offer and it was bitter. My relationship with God was as honey to my lips. I indeed feel sorry for you that you could not experience what I did. If you ever find yourself in the position I am in now to try and regain your faith and find God again, I weep for you. It is all but impossible to achieve. The Bible says itself it is 7 times harder to come back. It leaves a man empty, feeling lost in the world yet also lost in the Kingdom. But, if you do one day try again, I will tell you Gid never left you. He is right were you left Him, waiting. Listen closely and you still might hear that still small voice, the whisper of Divinity. I will pray for you. You may not care for that, but sometimes it takes the plea of one on the behalf of another to catch His attention. If you could only find the faith of a musterd seed, it would remove mountains of doubt. I will quote something you have heard before in closing, " you may have lost faith in God, but He never lost faith in you." God bless.

[.blank cd]

I believe even atheists would know that what your saying does not follow the teachings of Christ.

Looks like cyb is the only thing left giving Christianity a positive look. He's definitely not a true Christian, and that's a good thing. True Christians are irrational and dangerous people who misinterpret the scripture, and who use it to try and manipulate others because they believe they've been divinely instructed to do so.

[geoff]

Blank your idea of Christianity is wrong. It is not a religion to appease men, but to please God. What you have seen of the "church" is not what the image of Christ is. Some would use Christianity as a tool of fear to bully others and obtain some personal agenda. That is not my religion. Still waiting for your reply to my rebuttle...

[Sinfix_15]

who does more harm to the world? Atheist or televangelist?

[geoff]

A televangelist is not a Christian. I have never read anyone in the Bible having to pay for miracles. Those men are actually charlotans. To say that there are false teachers and that Christianity has a smeared name is putting it lightly. Too many opinions, too much greed, too much agenda. Christianity needs to get back to the fundementals.

[Sinfix_15]

A televangelist is not a Christian. I have never read anyone in the Bible having to pay for miracles. Those men are actually charlotans. To say that there are false teachers and that Christianity has a smeared name is putting it lightly. Too many opinions, too much greed, too much agenda. Christianity needs to get back to the fundementals.

I feel you're in the minority even among "your people"

[geoff]

Meaning?

[Sinfix_15]

Meaning?

Meaning that there's a lot more blood sucking vultures like televangelist in the world than somewhat reasonable people like you who want things to be "back to the fundamentals"

[bu villain]

By villain: what would be enough for you to believe?

I take things on a claim by claim basis. I don't see the bible as either being all true or all fiction. I already believe in many things that are in the bible. I believe Jesus existed, he had disciples, etc. There is a enough objective evidence from outside the bible to support this. I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to support that he was anything more than human. I frankly can't fathom how many of the major claims made in the bible could be proved or disproved since they are supernatural.

[bu villain]

And yes it happens in nature but as said by randomguy that it does not make it natural or right. Incest is also found in nature. So is sex of an older gender with one that has just come to maturity. Yet we do not condone a mother/son, brother/sister/ cousins sexual relationship. We do not condone a 40 year old man having sex with a girl that just reached maturity ( right around the age of 13 ). So, why do some condone same sex relationships but condone incest and pedophilia even if it is consented?
...
It is unnatural in the fact that men and men and women and women are not designed to have intercourse with one another. The anatomy just does not add up. And take religion or God out of the debate, two men and two women can never reproduce, and sex in its most primitive form is a tool for reproduction.

Just wanted to respond to this because this is such a common argument:

First of all, homosexuality is found in nature. Therefor, by definition, homosexuality is natural. It is pointless to argue about because it doesn't matter anyways. We don't make laws based on what is natural (e.g., killing).

Now that's out of the way. Lets make explicit why homosexuality is distinctly different from the other situations often brought up:

Homosexuality - Two consenting adults
Pedophilia - A child is not considered able to give consent due to the lack or maturity/brain development
Incest - A child of an incestual couple is at a much higher risk for birth defects due to the lack of gene mixing.
Beastiality - Similar to a child, we cannot determine consent and can't even say they have the brain development to understand such a notion.

Geoff also talks about anatomy/reproduction. Certainly we don't prevent infertile people or people who don't want kids at all from getting married so we can not say marriage is about reproduction. Heterosexual couples do lots of things with their anatomy that will never produce a baby, so I don't understand why anatomy matters.

If you want to have a good argument about why we shouldn't allow gay marriage, you need more convincing arguments.

[Sinfix_15]

Just wanted to respond to this because this is such a common argument:

First of all, homosexuality is found in nature. Therefor, by definition, homosexuality is natural. It is pointless to argue about because it doesn't matter anyways. We don't make laws based on what is natural (e.g., killing).

Now that's out of the way. Lets make explicit why homosexuality is distinctly different from the other situations often brought up:

Homosexuality - Two consenting adults
Pedophilia - A child is not considered able to give consent due to the lack or maturity/brain development
Incest - A child of an incestual couple is at a much higher risk for birth defects due to the lack of gene mixing.
Beastiality - Similar to a child, we cannot determine consent and can't even say they have the brain development to understand such a notion.

Geoff also talks about anatomy/reproduction. Certainly we don't prevent infertile people or people who don't want kids at all from getting married so we can not say marriage is about reproduction. Heterosexual couples do lots of things with their anatomy that will never produce a baby, so I don't understand why anatomy matters.

If you want to have a good argument about why we shouldn't allow gay marriage, you need more convincing arguments.

[geoff]

^ I could debate this, but it is off topic. Each side I believe can make a strong argument. But I will say this, the government did not force this on anyone. The people voted and the majority rules in this country. The people of the GLBT community can fuss all they want. It was put to a vote and the majority spoke. That is a simple fact.

Now, anyone care to discuss the points I made or are we in a general consensus that the Buble does not condone slavery and rape?

[Sinfix_15]

^ I could debate this, but it is off topic. Each side I believe can make a strong argument. But I will say this, the government did not force this on anyone. The people voted and the majority rules in this country. The people of the GLBT community can fuss all they want. It was put to a vote and the majority spoke. That is a simple fact.

Now, anyone care to discuss the points I made or are we in a general consensus that the Buble does not condone slavery and rape?

I think the answer is both. The bible both condones and condemns slavery and rape. The bible is a paradox, it offers you what ever answer you're looking for because it offers both answers.


a modern day jury would convict God assuming the story given was accurate. If God gave someone the power to conquer a city and then they enslaved and raped the women inside that city, he would be an accomplice. The people around Jerry Sandusky are being held accountable for allowing it to happen. What God did (according to the story) would be like handing Jerry Sandusky the key to the boys locker room.


Numbers 31:7-18
7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba —the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army —the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

[.blank cd]

^ I could debate this, but it is off topic. Each side I believe can make a strong argument. But I will say this, the government did not force this on anyone. The people voted and the majority rules in this country. The people of the GLBT community can fuss all they want. It was put to a vote and the majority spoke. That is a simple fact.

It's definitely a secular issue, but the Christian right has yet to come up with a strong secular argument against it, and since science isn't on their side, and since the only Christian argument against it only applies to themselves and not other people, they never will. The tyranny of the ignorant masses will suppress the rights of the few in this case. Refer to the presidential election of 2004 if you wanna learn more about "Majority Rules in America"

[geoff]

The Bible does not condone it. Show me a scripture that says God commanded the Israelites to rape and take slaves. You can't because it's not in there. The Bible is as much a historical account as filled with Gods commands. The scripture you put up are an account of the Israelites in the wilderness who went to conquer the Cannanites. They were a nation of idolaters and sacrificed their children to false gods. God told the Israelites He would give them that land, but they were to destroy the inhabitants for their false worship and all of their goods. Moses is angry because they did not do as they were commanded. The first of the 10 commandments is hear o Israel, the Lord thy God is one God. And you shall have no other gods before Him. The punishment for sin is death. The Israelites were to carry out this punishment and failed to do so. There are laws and consequences for braking them. You do not have to agree just as you do not agree with modern law/punishment. It does not change the fact that those were the rules. As far as rape goes, those men took the virgins as there wives. Marriage then was a business arabgement where love was hardly ever a factor. But the women were to be treated as one with the man. Abuse against a wife was punishable by death sometimes.

[geoff]

Blank cd: you seem to make this out to be a Christian only issue yet you failed to provide any writings of any religion that says two men having sex or getting married are supported. And regardless of how you twist it, the voters spoke. The ignorant masses? Yes I forgot that the atheists are the "enlightened ones". Get over yourself man. You have shown what little comprehension you have of my religion. You show everyone that you are the "ignorant" one when you try to use my own beliefs against me, again without the slightest comprehension of what you are even trying to use against me. Your idea of a perfect society is one where everyone gets paid the same regardless of what their job is, no rules, no God, no consequences. Then you will be truly "free".

[Sinfix_15]

Blank cd: you seem to make this out to be a Christian only issue yet you failed to provide any writings of any religion that says two men having sex or getting married are supported. And regardless of how you twist it, the voters spoke. The ignorant masses? Yes I forgot that the atheists are the "enlightened ones". Get over yourself man. You have shown what little comprehension you have of my religion. You show everyone that you are the "ignorant" one when you try to use my own beliefs against me, again without the slightest comprehension of what you are even trying to use against me. Your idea of a perfect society is one where everyone gets paid the same regardless of what their job is, no rules, no God, no consequences. Then you will be truly "free".

The richest man in the world is an atheist. Several geniuses are atheist. An overwhelming majority of scientist are atheist. There's plenty of people more intelligent than us that do not believe in god. It's not a misunderstanding.... its a choice. The choice to side with rational explanation over having faith.


i dont understand how you can view them taking the virgins as their wives as an acceptable act..... what of the boys and nonvirgins who were slaughtered?

[geoff]

Sinfix: my point is that blank cd and most atheists would make it seem that believers are simply stupid. I have seen the movies religulous and the God delusion. Both Dawkins and Mayer made no sense to me or had any intelligent response to remarks of those that have beliefs. Any opposition to their "rational" ideals and atheist belief was laughed at and mocked. They commented that it was "ridiculous". They don't ever have an intelligent debate or comebacks. I saw a video of a lecture Dawkins gave where one Christian stood up and asked, "well, what if you're wrong?" Dawkins replied, "what if I'm not". Seriously? This man is supposed to be an intellect and avoided debate by simply shrugging it off as non sense. You expect me to believe in a theory that says everything came from nothing, for no apparent reason, and for no purpose, then again for no reason a star eventually evolved into me? A theory that in itself tries to explain nature yet goes against the laws that govern it. And you call believers irrational...lol. Science is not all knowing, and cannot explain everything. It cannot explain the supernatural at present. That does not mean the supernatural is to be dismissed as a fairy tale. Their is evidence to suggest a creator, or rather that a creator is possible. Yet atheists dismiss it as poppycock. As an atheist you have no belief in anything and shouldn't really care about another's beliefs. So why go around try to put down those that have a belief? Is there maybe a hidden agenda, you tell me.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: my point is that blank cd and most atheists would make it seem that believers are simply stupid. I have seen the movies religulous and the God delusion. Both Dawkins and Mayer made no sense to me or had any intelligent response to remarks of those that have beliefs. Any opposition to their "rational" ideals and atheist belief was laughed at and mocked. They commented that it was "ridiculous". They don't ever have an intelligent debate or comebacks. I saw a video of a lecture Dawkins gave where one Christian stood up and asked, "well, what if you're wrong?" Dawkins replied, "what if I'm not". Seriously? This man is supposed to be an intellect and avoided debate by simply shrugging it off as non sense. You expect me to believe in a theory that says everything came from nothing, for no apparent reason, and for no purpose, then again for no reason a star eventually evolved into me? A theory that in itself tries to explain nature yet goes against the laws that govern it. And you call believers irrational...lol. Science is not all knowing, and cannot explain everything. It cannot explain the supernatural at present. That does not mean the supernatural is to be dismissed as a fairy tale. Their is evidence to suggest a creator, or rather that a creator is possible. Yet atheists dismiss it as poppycock. As an atheist you have no belief in anything and shouldn't really care about another's beliefs. So why go around try to put down those that have a belief? Is there maybe a hidden agenda, you tell me.

I dont doubt that their could be *something* out there that created us, i just dont believe the jesus christ story. Hard to imagine that we're the only planet with life on it, why wouldnt the bible address any of that?

why be anti-christian and put those down that have a belief? I dont particularly care about how you live your life, im happy for you if youre happy with christianity. Me personally, my only "beef" with it is the effect it has on my life. If christianity had no hand in politics or law, id have nothing against it. The bible is your law, chose to live by it. Dont force me to live by it. You dont need a law passed to follow your law. The laws that christians try to pass are put in place for people like me, to force me to live by your standard. Every day when i come home from work, i drive past about 50 churches.... i read their signs and such, look at their crosses they hang up... i have no problem with it, drive right past and go on with my life. I want the same from christians. If you dont want your kid playing that video game with nudity in it, dont buy it. If you dont like Metallica, dont go to their concerts. If you dont like internet porn..... thats why google has a safe search. If you dont want to marry a man, dont....... You're more than welcome to "drive right past" all of these things and continue living your life for God.

[.blank cd]

I saw a video of a lecture Dawkins gave where one Christian stood up and asked, "well, what if you're wrong?" Dawkins replied, "what if I'm not". Seriously? This man is supposed to be an intellect and avoided debate by simply shrugging it off as non sense.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence

You expect me to believe in a theory that says everything came from nothing, for no apparent reason, and for no purpose, then again for no reason a star eventually evolved into me?

The same way you expect me to believe that everything came from nothing for no apparent reason or purpose, only my argument has physical evidence to support it.

A theory that in itself tries to explain nature yet goes against the laws that govern it.

How does it do that? Try not to use made up thermodynamics arguments, especially if you're not familiar with thermodynamics and entropy, because they've all been properly debunked. The explanation is there. Just because you don't believe it or understand it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

And you call believers irrational...lol. Science is not all knowing, and cannot explain everything. It cannot explain the supernatural at present.

Nor does it try to explain the supernatural, because thats what it means: not natural. Science is going to be there in your everyday life, you can't just dismiss parts of it because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs

Is there maybe a hidden agenda, you tell me.

Knowledge, because religion tells us it's ok to not understand the world


Unitarian Universalism and Pastafarianism both take a positive stance on homosexuality.

[S4saken]

Damn I hate bible thumpers who try to push religion on other people. If God is real let all the non believers burn in hell, whats it to you you'll be in heaven bored out of your mind with all the shit you consider sin out of the picture.

The bible is written so generally that you can pull a line out of it and say the bible predicted it.

I used to work at juvenile justice center with a Jehovah Witness who was alway preaching what was right and wrong, one night one of the kids (about 11 or 12 years old) got out of bed and walked into another room and punch another kid, the Jehovah yanked the kid out of the room and chocked him the fuck out with both hands around his neck, it took me and another counselor to pull him off.

The point of that cool story is that you guy walk around pointing out other peoples faults and shit and are just as bad.
You pass judgment on people do not believing what you believe, to me that's just as bad a racism.

What an epic fail thread, WTF is it doing on a car enthusiast forum?

[geoff]

Sinfix: I will say this, "if a man stands for nothing, he will fall for anything". Where do we draw the line on appeasment? There will always be some new minority group that screams that their constitutional rights are being impeded. Take incest for example. It does no harm to anyone. It does not Impeed on anyone's rights. As yo stated above, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex, therefore contraceptives can be use and their is always abortion right? You ask any couple that practices it and they will say they genuinely love eachother. Therefore, why make it illegal? Is it because society sees it as "disgusting" or "perversion"? How conservative of us. By your own definitions, it should be legal. Two concenting adults, practicing a relationship that harms nor impedes on rights, no need for offspring, and effects no one else, and it occurs in nature. So why is it wrong? I can see the point you make. I am not one that holds up a "God hates fags" sign. But at some point, morals and values must be upheld otherwise one thing leads to another and this world goes beyond redemption.

Blank: Science would not agree with your statements about a lack of evidence being just cause for dismissal. After all, at one point we could not explain gravity or the laws of thermal dynamics. That does not mean they didn't exist until we had the means to study them. I can offer you the how, when, why and by whom life came from. Your theory leaves many more questions to be answered. I can even show you evidences that point to a creator. One does not view a piece of art and assume it just appeared, we know it was created by an artist. I can give you many examples of "holes" in your theories and scientific explanation. I can also ask you one simple question, why did life create itself from nothing? Also, you gave me two examples of modern religions that support gay marriage. Unitarian universalism and pastafarianism are not religions, with the later being an actual parody religion. The universalists have no central belief nor practices. They are a modern group of appeasers that want to make everybody feel good. You also failed to answer the actual question I asked. I asked you to provide me with a single scripture from any religions holy writings that supported gay marriage. I have come to understand that you may not have a mind of your own. That your religion is google search. You sir are informant and foolish. Don't believe me, I can show you tangible evidence that proves this. Your own words paint this vivid picture. you have not shown the slightest comprehension of my religion or made even a single intelligent rebutall against any of my points.

[S4saken]

And just so you don't think that I'm against Christianity or that I think Christians are stupid let me just put it out there that I am happily married to a Christian woman.

We talk about why I don't believe in the bible and why she does and we respect each others views. I don't try to convince her that the bible isn't true and she doesn't try to get me to believe that it is.

Our 6 year old daughter says Grace before every meal and preys before she goes to bed, I'll even read her a bible story occasionally. She asks questions that to me are really hard to answer, she'll say thing like " why did they throw rocks at her" or "it sounds like they killed him, why did they do that?" I try to give her an unbiased answer because I want her to make the choice herself when she is older whether she wants to believe or not.

I come from a Christian family as well and I see the disappointment in my mothers eyes every time it brought up that I'm aithiest.

So my beef isn't with Christianity, it with Christians or any other overly religious person trying to sell religion like its a fucking extended warranty at Best Buy. I don't need it so stop talking to me about it.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: I will say this, "if a man stands for nothing, he will fall for anything". Where do we draw the line on appeasment? There will always be some new minority group that screams that their constitutional rights are being impeded. Take incest for example. It does no harm to anyone. It does not Impeed on anyone's rights. As yo stated above, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex, therefore contraceptives can be use and their is always abortion right? You ask any couple that practices it and they will say they genuinely love eachother. Therefore, why make it illegal? Is it because society sees it as "disgusting" or "perversion"? How conservative of us. By your own definitions, it should be legal. Two concenting adults, practicing a relationship that harms nor impedes on rights, no need for offspring, and effects no one else, and it occurs in nature. So why is it wrong? I can see the point you make. I am not one that holds up a "God hates fags" sign. But at some point, morals and values must be upheld otherwise one thing leads to another and this world goes beyond redemption.

who decides morals and values? pretty big difference between what you think is moral and what i think is moral. I look at porn daily. I wouldnt marry someone without sleeping with them.... a thousand times. I curse hourly. I think birth control is the greatest thing since the color television. I dont care if guys marry each other, more women for the rest of us. Nudity is great, i wish there was more of it.

Yet somehow... someway.... i live a perfectly moral life and cause no harm to anyone. Ive never been arrested, never stole anything, and never been in trouble. I feel my lifestyle is perfectly moral. When i chose to go to church, i follow the rules and blend in, i dont stand out front with picket signs like they do at Marilyn Manson concerts. I compromise with christians.... personally, i think a picture of someone nailed to a cross is much more obscene than a nude female, but i'm ok with these images being displayed openly.

The problem with this battle between religious and nonreligious is that the religious side feels that they have the authority over the nonreligious.

[.blank cd]

Take incest for example. It does no harm to anyone. It does not Impeed on anyone's rights. As yo stated above, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex, therefore contraceptives can be use and their is always abortion right? You ask any couple that practices it and they will say they genuinely love eachother. Therefore, why make it illegal? Is it because society sees it as "disgusting" or "perversion"? How conservative of us. By your own definitions, it should be legal. Two concenting adults, practicing a relationship that harms nor impedes on rights, no need for offspring, and effects no one else, and it occurs in nature. So why is it wrong? I can see the point you make. I am not one that holds up a "God hates fags" sign. But at some point, morals and values must be upheld otherwise one thing leads to another and this world goes beyond redemption.

An incestuous relationship between two consenting adults isn't wrong, it's taboo. Incest should not be criminal unless it infringes on someone else's liberties, like if one of the parties were a minor or otherwise not be able to think for themselves.

Who's the ultimate authority on this worlds morals and values? Christians? And under who's fine judgment makes the call on the worlds redemption? Christians? There are 7 billion people on earth, and sorry to say, you are in the minority with only 2 billion worldwide followers. 5 billion people got religion wrong and will burn in hell. So when you ask if it's worth gambling eternity for, it seems as if the odds are stacked in my favor.

Hate to break it to ya but morality doesn't come from a book. If it does for you, what does that really say about you? The only thing stopping you from murder, rape, theft, deception is 1000 pages of mistranslated text from 2000 years ago?

Blank: Science would not agree with your statements about a lack of evidence being just cause for dismissal. After all, at one point we could not explain gravity or the laws of thermal dynamics.

As a student of science, science rarely disagrees with me. Again, what can be ASSERTED (not hypothesized) without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence

That does not mean they didn't exist until we had the means to study them. I can offer you the how, when, why and by whom life came from.

And unless you can show physical evidence for your theory, you have a conjecture. We do not have means to study that which transcends reality.

Your theory leaves many more questions to be answered.

Luke 11:9

I can even show you evidences that point to a creator. One does not view a piece of art and assume it just appeared, we know it was created by an artist. I can give you many examples of "holes" in your theories and scientific explanation.

I don't assume art just appears either. I know someone created it. There's physical evidence for the artist too: I can touch him, talk to him, ask him about his feelings, I can touch the paint, the brush, the pencil. I can paint with the same tools. I can even find out where those tools come from.

I can also ask you one simple question, why did life create itself from nothing?

No one ever said life came from nothing, except the bible. Genesis 1 says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Logically, before this happens, we must infer that there was nothing (other than himself). Life obviously comes from something. That's one of those things fundamentalist Christians either don't want to ask or are afraid of the answer because it goes against what their bible says.

Also, you gave me two examples of modern religions that support gay marriage. Unitarian universalism and pastafarianism are not religions, with the later being an actual parody religion.

Pastafarianism has scripture, followers, and a deity. What more do you need? The same can be said about Christianity.

You also failed to answer the actual question I asked. I asked you to provide me with a single scripture from any religions holy writings that supported gay marriage.

The new testament takes a neutral stance on homosexuality. Its only mentioned a few times in the Pauline epistles, zero times in the gospels, nothing in hebrews, acts, revelation, or john. Any inferred passages are ambiguous or have disputed translations. But feel free to quote some scripture and interpret it in your own way. I can put a neutral stance in my positive column, but most Christians will still believe its wrong

[geoff]

S4saken: no one forced anything on you. You came in here and posted. I never pushed my beliefs on anyone in here or condemn anyone to hell. I posted up about myself, that I am in no shape to judge anyone. I firmly believe that those who point fingers should be careful, they have three pointing back at them. Even my Bible says the same thing. My problem with some on here try to use scripture and my own beliefs to make a point against me. I don't go to an engineer and tell him how to build a bridge because I don't know what I'm talking about. You paint an accurate picture of a lot of Christians, but not all. A true Christian does not force beliefs on anyone. They are to share their personal testimony, give the message of salvation, and the let God do the rest. They do so out of love. To us, we see a world commuting suicide and care enough to try and stop them. Like I said to Sinfix, Christianity has wandered off the path. We need to get back to simple fundementals. Your wife still talks to you about it because she loves you, but leaves it to you to make the choice, as every man does. Sounds like God blessed you with a good woman.

Sinfix: I see your points, but you still did not address mine...I'm still waiting.

Blank cd: First off, If you believe in the freedom of incestual relationships, maybe you should start a movement. I would argue that you stand as a minority with your views on incest. We all have a conscience instilled in us by God and do not need a book to give us morality. I'm not sure where you ever got me saying this.Further more, like I said my belief can give answers to all the questions and I can show evidences that point to a purpose and design of life that dismisses claims that everything is random. You still didn't answer my question of why. To simply deny that there is a possibility of a creator is foolish. Science aims to find truth no matter where it leads, except today it's more like science is out to prove God does not exist. I can get in a science debate with you if you want, but let's take that to another thread and stay on topic here as this will get lengthy. You ignored my comment about the universalists and chose to stick with pastafarianism...sad. Pastafarianism is a joke...literally...therefore it can not be taken seriously. You still didn't show me any holy writings that support gays, guess google let you down. Speaking of which, your argument about homosexuality in the New Testament is yet another fail. Your argument looks much like one on Wikipedia...nice try though. Here is a link you might want to read...www.bible-truths.com/homosex. You are describing to me beliefs of the new age "modern" church that seeks to appease everyone, condemn no sin, and has cast aside their own scriptural beliefs so that they may grow and take in more money. They are as corrupt as the catholic church. Seriously man, do some research before you post. I will say it again, you have no knowledge about my faith or religion. You have the words of men that have come up with their own ideals. Further more, the only scripture being mistranslated here are the ones you provided that are the interpretations of those who would change the meaning to fit their modern and misguided agenda. One can not simply change scripture to fit in with today's lost world.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: I see your points, but you still did not address mine...I'm still waiting.

I agree with blank on incest, it's not something i condone, but i see no reason to criminalize it assuming said relationship follows other laws in place. The argument against it would be birth defects.... but i dont see women getting thrown in jail for drinking and smoking during their pregnancy, so why should that be treated any different.

It's not that i stand for nothing. I feel we're still seeking the answers.... i dont think anyone knows anything about anything. At one time we thought the world was flat...... when i look up into the sky and see millions of stars we cant reach and then go for a ride in my car powered by fossil fuel, i just dont think myself or any man walking this earth has the answers for the creation of the universe. Any evidence that supports the existence of Jesus Christ doesnt sway me either. I dont doubt that Jesus was real or that some of his stories were accurate. I dont think there is any way of proving that he was the son of God. The only historical evidence that supports him being the son of God is that other people believed he was. How would you even begin to prove a claim like this?

Do i believe Jesus was real? yes.
Do i believe Jesus died on a cross? yes.
Do i believe that Jesus told people he was the son of God? yes.
Do i believe that Jesus had a following of people who believed what he told them? yes.
Do i believe he is the son of God? No, absolutely not.
Do i believe there is a God? Maybe... maybe not. I'd like to think that there is, but im not going to pretend there is to make me feel better about life. And i would hope someone powerful and all knowing would not care about petty things like the bible's description of sin. It just doesnt make logical sense.

why are these things a sin? why are we so different from everything else in nature? The 1st commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." if you're the only God... what is the point of even saying this? who are you even referring to......... it's like if you and your wife were stranded on an island together and you're questioning her about sleeping with a coworker... i just dont get it. God sounds very jealous and vengeful. Jealousy generally stems from insecurity, why would God be insecure?

The stories just do not make logical sense. The 1st 3 commandments sound like a jealous rant..... of a MAN...... not a God.



If this all happened in 2012, it would have lasted for about 30 minutes with 3 commercial breaks. Mary would have been on Maury Povich getting DNA results from some of the local farmers, after a dramatic pause he would have said "Mathew, you ARE the father!!!!!" and that would have been the end of christianity before it ever started.

[geoff]

Sinfix: I dare describe you as an agnostic more that an atheist. That being said, you said that you can't believe Jesus was the son of God. But you admit that's what He taught and He had a significant group following Him. There could therefore be two conclusions. Either He was who He said He was, or a lunitic. Seeing how He had a large following that grew greatly withing a few generations would point to Him being legitimate. After all, there is a new 2nd Messiah among us( the Hispanic guy) claiming to be the son of God. Where is His nation of followers, where is his historic movement? Why does he not put his claims to test? Christ did, He died, and according to His followers rose again. I respect you man, you seem like a guy I could have a beer with. Unlike blank cd, you are rational and admit you don't think anyone has it completely figured out. The difference between me and you, I have faith in the history and spiritual teachings of Christ.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: I dare describe you as an agnostic more that an atheist. That being said, you said that you can't believe Jesus was the son of God. But you admit that's what He taught and He had a significant group following Him. There could therefore be two conclusions. Either He was who He said He was, or a lunitic. Seeing how He had a large following that grew greatly withing a few generations would point to Him being legitimate. After all, there is a new 2nd Messiah among us( the Hispanic guy) claiming to be the son of God. Where is His nation of followers, where is his historic movement? Why does he not put his claims to test? Christ did, He died, and according to His followers rose again. I respect you man, you seem like a guy I could have a beer with. Unlike blank cd, you are rational and admit you don't think anyone has it completely figured out. The difference between me and you, I have faith in the history and spiritual teachings of Christ.

Well.... the only thing it takes to be a leader... is followers. That doesnt mean you're anyone of significance and using your own argument against you, other religious figures have more followers than Jesus, so they must be real also? I think the reason Christianity is such a wildfire historically is just a case of perfect time and place. As i said jokingly before, if this story happened tomorrow, it would have never got started. The technology you would use to refute Jesus' claims didnt exist at the time. I'm also not ruling out the possibility that he was a lunatic. That's exactly what you would say to someone if they made this claim today.

It would be like if i had a drag race on a country road and claimed i ran 9s. Everyone who watched it saw my car pop a wheelie and fly by, nobody doubted the car was fast... but who really knows if it was a 9 or not. I could claim 9s... and nobody could really prove me wrong, but i couldnt really prove i was telling the truth either, no matter how many onlookers supported my claim. Maybe the entire crowd believed i ran 9s...... still wouldnt make it true. Maybe it was... maybe it wasnt... given the evidence you have, it's easier to make a case that it didnt happen or was exaggerated. A scientific explanation would be something like "the length of road was only 1.5 miles, on a dusty road its safe to assume the 60ft was 2 seconds or above, with the rate of speed it would take to make a 9 second pass, he probably wouldnt have had time to stop the car if he went that fast, plus the car's gear ratio wouldnt support a top speed fast enough to make a 9 second pass"......

but.... even using all of that logic to refute the claim.... it still doesnt prove it isnt true. That's how i look at this argument.... the only reason we cant clearly prove that youre wrong is because it simply cant be proven. Maybe one day we'll get some new info to work with..... who knows. I'd personally like to think that the truth is a much bigger story than what any of us believe. Looking at the universe, we're a spec of sand on the beach.


And i agree... you're definitely someone i could see myself getting along with.

[.blank cd]

I think the reason Christianity is such a wildfire historically is just a case of perfect time and place.

There is a specific historical reason Christianity is so widespread, and if it weren't for this reason, Geoff would be on here preaching about some other god, probably Mithras.

[geoff]

Sinfix: I meant a literal beer lol.

Blank: and what is this historical specific occurrence that causes me to believe in Christ and not some other god?

[geoff]

I have a question for you guys. You don't believe in the ultimate good, what about evil, ghosts, demons, aliens?