..People pay $900 for iPads
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012...0-for-an-ipad/
Santorum to sick kid: Dont complain about $1 mil drug costs...
..People pay $900 for iPads
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012...0-for-an-ipad/
That was a RIDICULOUS comparison, buying an Ipad is a personal choice but getting schiz or other diseases rarely is. But the drug companies do have a right to charge what they do even though it sucks for people who are not rich, but life isn't fair so oh well.
I don't think Rick understood Penicillin and how it was distributed to save lives. Because a life is more important than the cost of producing something to save a life.
CHASE ->>> WHAT MATTERS
I didnt bother with the article or anything. Just a quick question on this part.Originally Posted by blaknoize
If a company gives away this product and they are losing money on it, why would they continue to produce it? Eventually they wouldnt have the money left to produce it anyways.
Simple, we all pay for it's production and distribution and research. Problem totally resolved. WE as in me, you, them and even the people that need the drug/care. As endlessly argued a time before. A FairTax for FairCare. But to others, I'm a radical with those simple fair "we all care" and "we all can" ideas.
CHASE ->>> WHAT MATTERS
So you didn't read the article. You have no idea what we're talking about
To give you an idea, we're talking about a presidential candidate incorrectly comparing and justifying the high cost of medication (a necessity) to an iPad (a luxury). A sick kid asks Santorum what he plans to do about the artificially inflated cost of meds, to which he replies "Don't complain, people spend $900 on iPads so it's ok"
To sum it up, the government has allowed big pharma to turn life saving medicine and practice into a profit-making machine. Is it legal? Absolutely. Is it right? Not at all.
Staunch Conservatives will argue till they're blue in the face "hey it's legal! Why should they give their product away? Life's not fair, deal with it!" Typically this is the position they take (with this and entitlement programs) until the shoe is on the opposite foot. They come down with a case of something nasty, or they shoot themselves in the leg, and have to spend thousands of dollars on treatment, medicine, or will have to be laid out (or off from work). ONLY THEN will their position change when they look at the hospital bill they can't afford, or as they're signing their name on the check they get for medical leave or unemployment.
I remember Fox's Megan Kelly was a big opponent of entitlement programs. You couldn't tell her differently. Then she got pregnant. She announced her maternity leave was just around the corner, and one of her guests called her on it. Her story did a complete 180 and she flipped her shit on him.
"Let's take away entitlements, just don't take away my entitlements..."
If you think medicine costs actually reflect the cost of research and development as they are, I have a bridge on the west coast you might be interested in.
Lot of drugs are researched and developed in universities, where theyre already funded by tax payer money. Nothing about the production process causes them to lose money. They spend 3-5x more on advertisement than they do on development and production. There's no way to justify the pricing, it's only priced that way because it's life saving. What's next??? how about if you're trapped in a burning car, the fireman comes up and says "i'll pull you out of this car for $1million". Would be the exact same thing. If not for turning a profit why would they continue to produce it? just taking a guess here.... but... to save lives?
Just a little info, but somehow I doubt the right people will read it
http://pipeline.corante.com/archives...a_rebuttal.php
If I don't need it or want it why should I be forced to pay for it? Why is it my responsibility to pay for your medication?
As for the cost of medication there is one large factor that no one mentioned. Mass tort law and the costs associated with it. Just yesterday I saw a commercial from The Relion Group advertising that tylonol causes liver disease and you could be eligible for a cash settlement if you ever took it.
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My taxes pay the road you drive on, the police who travel your county, firefighting services in your area and the public works. Why is it my concern that you can make it to work safely and fight bits of crime or stop your home from setting someone elses home on fire? It isn't my responsiblity at all, but my taxes help your area, even if I never travel through your area.
As far as the medication goes: I MAY need the medication or you MAY need it later in life. The cost wouldn't concern me because one day I MAY need it, or my neighbor MAY need it. I don't have to know you to be able to help. It is life, not profit. If you've been condemned to die in X amount of time but have a window to survive and just need X $'s but u can't seem to get it because
A: you've been jobless due to your illness and B: you don't have the money
Lets assume you are a working buddy of mine but I dont know you personally. You've been on leave due to this sickness with partial pay (to maintain the home, etc) and you've maxed out the coverage your insurance allows and have neared the final stages of whatever treatment it is (cancer treatment for this issue). You are like 2 weeks from being released, the insurance company says: "Hey guy, you're costing us to fukin much, we understand you have cancer and you're actually almost done, but we arent about to pay the last 2 weeks of your treatment." So.. you're notified that you must leave if you can't get money. Now you KNOW this cancer can return if not removed in totallity, u can't stop treatment now but u dont have enough money to save your own life.
WTF sense would it make for me to know this and they know this, but since you are now broke, you cannot save your own life. You die because you didnt have some fukin money, not because you weren't TRYING to take care of yourself, just over money. But if we were ALL paying for your health and help, as well as you paying for ours. No one would have to worry and could live healthy. Because we all want to live and ALL have the power to help one another. I'm not going to be selfish and watch you die over some damn money. Money isn't important when it comes to being alive.
CHASE ->>> WHAT MATTERS
This same old tired argument?
I use the roads, as does everyone else. Police and fire provide me a service, even though I may never need them directly.
A. You hit on one of the portions of Obamacare I do like. Caps on coverage pretty much eliminate the benefits of the coverage for some serious illnesses.
B. You still havent told me why it is my financial responsibility to take care of your 'buddy'. I have much better things to do with my money than help a lifetime smoker with lung cancer.
C. Why should I buy insurance to start with if I know momma govt is going to come in and pay my bills for me? Look at all that money I could save every month if I wasnt paying for insurance.
Can't read it at work, but medical care is too complicated to answer in a 20 second sound bite.
How do you bring down costs of drugs? You expand coverage, offer more generic options , cut down research costs.
Giving it away for free doesn't solve the problem.
Taxing people for it like blacknoize suggests , just shows the small grasp on healtchcare costs most Americans have. You'd have to increase taxes 400% to break even on medical care.
Healthcare is a for profit business, if everyone wanted to spend their research dollars and Dole out free medicine, nothing is stopping them. But research and drugs, manufacturing costs money.
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
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Right. Just not as much money as they lead you to believe
I never have used the fire department and have never used the police so why am I paying for them and their services? I also never drive down your street or use that street or highway to travel on my daily commute, but my taxes are paying for it. I also will never travel to most any place that the military is at right now but I'm apparently taxed for it.
Whether that person is my buddy or not. Being alive vs some denomination of money is unimportant. We create the money anyway, why can't we use it to keep someone else alive. Their work may indirectly impact your life. And yes, it's the same old argument because it makes sense.
Why die because you just dont have enough money? Is money THAT important to you that you'd rather die? You dont say a thing about your money being spent on fighting wars with other people you don't know just to end their lives. But you complain about a few dollars going to help someone you dont know. Yall are fukin backwards. It's life!!
CHASE ->>> WHAT MATTERS
Even if you may not use them directly, they provide you a service. Just like your car insurance, even if you never get into an accident or file a claim, they provide you a service that you pay for.
You didnt even bother to explain why I should buy any insurance at all if govt is going to force you to pay for my health care. Why should I use my money to pay for it if the govt will do it with someone else's money.
This has nothing to do with war. You are simply trying to sue that because you dont have any answers to my questions. I have already answered you regarding running out of coverage. Now it is time you tell me why I am responsible for other's health expenses.
Actual drug development isnt the highest cost. The biggest cost is in the trials and certification process.
Doctors and pharma also have to worry about trial lawyers going after them. The costs to protect themselves from both valid and frivolous lawsuits is huge. The costs of malpractice insurance have boomed over the last decade which also adds to the costs.
This belief that every person malignant a profit is Scrooge mcduck sitting in a smoke filled room laughing at all the poor people is really just a joke.
So how much profit should a company make? By your insinuation you should have some idea, how much is too much and how much is too little?
Furthermore you act like there is no cost to associated with making a product like they just make up money values. Instead of trying to tell people they make too much, how about removing the burdensome crap that inflates their product. Like frivolous lawsuits, allow buying across state lines, etc.
If cost doesn't come down after that.....then we can look at other alternatives
Who do you want doing the research and development if you legislate profit? Ever thhink that maybe these people will just say "screw it" and close up shop?
Either post solutions or quit complaining
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
People that try to turn a profit aren't Scrooge McDuck. People that try to turn a profit off of human misery and disease is a different story...
It's a good thing most of the world doesn't think this way. Lol
well i mean you guys offer no solutions. YOur solution is to make it free. or to tell people to "have a heart" and give away medicine for free.
Thats not a solution, thats rhetoric. Thats uneducated , non thinking, liberal left wing crap. Its not possible. I havent seen one person post anything relevant. All ive seen is strawman comments and conjecture.
First lets not confuse HEALTHCARE with DRUG COMPANIES:
As much as you guys wont admit it, businesses and medicine costs MONEY to produce. Theres the R&D, trials, testing , bottling, manufacturing, etc. that stuff just doesnt appear from thin air when you go to the store and buy cold medicine or fill a prescription. Someone designed, bottled, researched, made that medicine. It has to be rigorously tested because any side effects that are not issued can lead to million dollar lawsuits and the company going under.
You guys act like theres a pill to cure cancer and the evil drug companies wont give it to people with cancer unless they have insurance. That is simple NOT the case.
The fact is very FEW people in this country are WITHOUT health insurance. Very few people DIE because of lack of health insurance. Very FEW people dont have health insurance because they cannot "afford it". MOST people CHOOSE NOT to have insurance because they dont want to pay for it.
SO out of the less than 10% of the American Population who DOESNT have insurance:
Some are too poor too afford it- We should help them, have low cost catastrophic plans, free clinics, maybe vouchers for 3 visits a year. (most children have state free care anywhere in the nation FYI)
Some choose NOT to pay for it- Those people need to be educated and incentivized to buy it. I dont know how, but offering different plans to cater to their needs is best.
Instead of changing the entire system to cater to the VERY SMALL POPULATION affected, we should target savings where we can and exploit those areas. Reform the tort law system, improve upon preventative care, loosen standards (IE let a NP treat a common cold and write a prescription for low end antibiotics rather than have the $200/hr dr come in to do it), allow more competition by purchasing across state lines.
Santorums quote was stupid, but he is half right. People complain about the cost of insurance , but they are out buying $800 IPAds. If someone says "im too poor to have insurance" and they smoke cigs or drink beer frequently, i dont really have sympathy for them. Most people CHOOSE NOT TO BUY IT, rather than be too poor to have it
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-www.usedbarcode.net
i just looked over all my post, and I didn't see anywhere where I said "give it away free"
No human being should die because they can't afford treatment. Health insurance or not. "Very few" is unacceptable. Zero. Not one. Period. Providing the service and placing debilitating debt on people after the fact is no different
The whole healthcare/insurance situation is quickly becoming an industry that is trying their damnedest to turn a mega profit on human misery and disease, and it's despicable.
No you said
Insinuating the medical companies charge too much , and make "too much money". Blacknoize was the one advocating give it away for free, basically. Since you are an expert on medical drug costs, how much is TOO MUCH money for them too make?Right. Just not as much money as they lead you to believe
Nice strawman, but sorry, thats life man. If there was this massive epidemic of people dieing from cancer because they couldnt get treatment because of lack of insurance it would be all over the news. Its not, cause the cases are so few and far between it really doesnt happen as much as the left wants you to think.No human being should die because they can't afford treatment. Health insurance or not. "Very few" is unacceptable. Zero. Not one. Period. Providing the service and placing debilitating debt on people after the fact is no different
Its not acceptable for anyone to die, but show me raw numbers, i want to see these people who are dieing because of no insurance. The main problem we have is people going BANKRUPT from not having insurance.
There are so many free hospitals across the nation that give away free care.
The fact of the matter is that very very very very very small population of the country has the problems you guys are talking about. So, rather than attack that very small population and find solutions for THEM, you want to force the other 95% of the country to go bankrupt and pay for THEIR medical care, or have the GOVT take over it.
Strawman again. Its a for profit business buddy, how do you have a non profit based healthcare system?The whole healthcare/insurance situation is quickly becoming an industry that is trying their damnedest to turn a mega profit on human misery and disease, and it's despicable.
Have the govt run it? Ok, you realize you MUST TAX EVERYONE an extra 2.5 BILLION dollars a year just to BREAK EVEN right? You ok with that?
The FACTS are that the healthcare industry makes ON AVERAGE 3.5%-4.5% on insurance premiums. They average around $100 on a single person and $200 on a family person PER YEAR.
SO IF YOU STRIPPED AWAY ALL THEIR PROFIT ON THEIR PREMIUMS, YOU WOULD SAVE PEOPLE A WHOPPING $100-200 a YEAR . The healthcare problem has been largely exaggerated.
http://biz.yahoo.com/p/sum_qpmd.html
Yet another post from you with ZERO solutions.
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
i actually read the story, and frankly he has a point. FYI anything from MediaMatters or ThinkProgress is about as biased as it comes.
Hes right. I wish we lived in a world where people invested untold millions of dollars to create a drug just to drive themselves into bankruptcy in the name of helping someone else. But that isnt going to happen, ever. So once you get past that utopian dream Star Trek promised you, you can begin to understand and really come up with real world solutions to healthcare.“People have no problem paying $900 for an iPad,” Santorum said, “but paying $900 for a drug they have a problem with — it keeps you alive. Why? Because you’ve been conditioned to think health care is something you can get without having to pay for it.”
All hes saying is there is a double standard when it comes to healthcare. Someone develops a wonder drug and sells it for what they think the market price is, and people will complain. But people willingly spend $900 on IPADs and Flatscreen TVs and never complain.
If this kids mom has the choice between buying the $900 drug and a $900 IPAD, and she has an IPAD, do you have any sympathy for her?
BOth are products developed and researched and sold. Why is it ok to pay the asking price of 1 and not the other?
If you have insurance, the "$900" medicine isnt $900 fyi.
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
How about a plumber that fixes a leaking sewage pipe? Is he banned from making a profit on others misery and disease? What about an electrician? No power for the fridge means food spoils which leads to misery and disease. No profits allowed for him either. How about the IT guy? Most businesses these days are shut down if their network goes down. No work = no money which leads to misery and disease. No more profits for that guy either.
Before long, no one will be allowed to earn a profit.
I said nothing about making it free. It isn't free, it's paid by all of us. Whether we use it or not. Just like comparing us funding wars we aren't "using" or all of us paying for roads or public schools in our respective counties. Not all of us will use all of them, but we all pay for them to negate the cost of a single person paying for it's use. In most any other country that has abopted that idea understands that it isn't free. I've mentioned Norway as the head of this lil debate over life vs. money. No one cares just about "me" everyone cares about "them". I need dental work, I get it done when it's needed, not when I can afford it.
Otherwise, it would be like a pay-per-use toll and it could be staggering for us to use a single stretch of road if it were hardly used. But since we all seem to pay for it, the cost does down, whether we use it or not. My "solution" isn't free, it is a tax, as I've said before. We're paying for it, we may not use it, but if we DO use it, it wont break us or kill us because we can afford to pay for it.
The problem is that American Healthcare is privatized and must turn a profit, so you can hardly call them healthcare providers. They do enough to make a person believe they are cared for, but it is about money, if you don't have the money then "best of luck". And all of you are so dead-set on just making money vs living I can't comprehend it. But then again, isn't "health insurance" paid by the policy holder's that also pay for those who have sought care and failed to pay for it? Like I did when I was younger and couldn't afford to pay, oh yea we do! So isn't this just the same yet there are only a specific few that pay vs. EVERYONE paying? With or without research, it should be a common goal to insure we are all healthy since we all work to do the same things. Eat, sleep, live.
But I forgot, I'm in America and it's the American dream to have to worry about being a healthy adult and making a financial decision on something that shouldn't be a "financial" decision at all.
CHASE ->>> WHAT MATTERS
You could have skipped all the writing and said you believe in socialism and all of the great things it has done for the world.
BTW, last year US health care costs were about 2.7T. Who so you think is going to pay that? Even with a 50% cut in costs (which wont happen) that's an additional 1.7T worth of debt every single year and growing every single year. No one is going to raise taxes on it the pitiful poor and the rich don't make 1.7T a year.
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OH LOOK , ANOTHER STRAWMAN POST.
SO you believe in socialism. YOu really think our country can be compared to fucking NORWAY? REALLY? are you that incompetent?
YOu wrote a lot of useless bleeding heart bullshit, but again, offered ZERO SOLUTIONS and refused to answer ANY OF MY QUESTIONS.
Your answer is to make everyone pay for it, but when you say everyone, you mean the rich only? Or the govt pay for it? or tax people to pay for it?
You act like taxing everyone an extra $1 pays for top of the line healthcare. Govt cant simply PROVIDE healthcare, they have to pay for it. They TAX PEOPLE TO PAY FOR SOCIAL PROGRAMS. SO you are basically advocating that you lose more from your paycheck so others can have HC right?
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
Wow. You really reached for that one.
You are a special kind of person if you think someone with a broken pipe, a power outage, or a broken computer is somehow equal to someone living with a debilitating illness or condition.
Do you even know what a straw man argument is? I'll give you a hint: it has nothing to do with someone who has a different viewpoint than you
Obviously you have trouble reading , he clearly misrepresented my position several times. while continuing to play his own position with distorted facts
A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's positionThere i made it easy for you. Thats NOT what i said at all. so now thequestion is do YOU UNDERSTAND what a strawman is? or are you going to check my spelling next while largely ignoring all other major points in this thread?But I forgot, I'm in America and it's the American dream to have to worry about being a healthy adult and making a financial decision on something that shouldn't be a "financial" decision at all.
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Thank you for the definition, but what you posted isnt a strawman.
Youre right, now we should argue over what the definition of a strawman is, whiile you continue to ignore everything else of substance.
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
You kids may need it. Or your wife. Or your Parents.
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
We all agree it takes a lot to develop medicine. Whether it is paid for by the government or by private citizens, it is basically the same in the end. I think we can probably all agree we should make medicine as accessible as possible to those who need it. This is done by pooling risk and it can be accomplished by either private insurance or government insurance. The real issue here is that many people don't have insurance or are under insured.
so how do you insure the people without insurance (less than 10% of the population , and of that 10% do it because of CHOICE not because of economic problems)?
The under insured what you do is lower the costs for the insurance companies so they can pass the savings onto the consumer. Subsidizing only drives the cost UP (look at housing, education, etc).
They are going to completely overhaul the health insurance system as we know it for probably less than 5-7% of the population who TRULY cant afford insurance.
its retarded
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
The biggest problem with a government run system is that the government is HORRIBLY inefficient with pretty much everything that they do, almost universally over budget and time. Way too much red tape and bureaucracy for them to manage an entire healthcare system efficiently.
In the process they will cause rates to rise. The insurance industry got hundreds of new mandates to comply with under Obamacare. Each and every one of those mandates costs money, which will then be passed onto the consumer.
I do write a lot of bleeding heart messages with no solutions. It isn't my place to offer solutions on a board. But as a reasonable person it is possible. Which is why Norway has always been mentioned. Not one thing wrong with that country, they are soooo socialist but soooo much better off than us. So yes, I'm a socialist to you and your terms, but I'm really just another person that can't understand how some of these things are in the world, especially considering we are ("the richest country") in the world.
We take everything else from everyone else, why not take a working business model from another country who's society is living better than us? Norway, everyone's gettin money, everyone has healthcare, nearly ALL have homes that are owned. Oh and the country is still well in the black. I've said the samethings before like 2yrs ago. You can tell how well a country is by how it takes care of it's poor. My heart will continue to bleed, because that could of been me; the one homeless or jobless or in need of care because the country I was born in can't help me with anything but debt.
CHASE ->>> WHAT MATTERS
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