To those of you who said the healthcare bill isn't going to affect us

[Bajjani]

Catepillar is one company within an industry of MANY construction companies. If I want to base the state of the economy on one corporation's hardship then we've been doomed well before Healthcare reform. The gauge of how successful healthcare reform is or isn't will not come for years, all legislation is forward looking and rarely if ever gives an immediate impact.

Do you think before you write this shit? Are you suggesting that this is a one time event that will not be repeated into other industries/corporations? Did I not specifically say this was going to happen yesterday, and look at this, it did. And are we going to make it to that 10 year mark to base the success of this bill? I don't give a shit how forward you look in the future, you learn to crawl before you can walk, you can't just say lets change shit to this.

The Law of Unintended Consequences <----

Do you know what the immediate impact of this bill is? Increased taxes. Do you know what this bill says? It says you get taxed an extra 8-20%. It says if you DON'T buy APPROVED health insurance, you have to pay more taxes. It says if companies don't provide you with health insurance, they have to pay fines.

Please go do some damn research before you say anything else.

[tony]

Do you think before you write this shit? Are you suggesting that this is a one time event that will not be repeated into other industries/corporations? Did I not specifically say this was going to happen yesterday, and look at this, it did. And are we going to make it to that 10 year mark to base the success of this bill? I don't give a shit how forward you look in the future, you learn to crawl before you can walk, you can't just say lets change shit to this.

The Law of Unintended Consequences <----

Do you know what the immediate impact of this bill is? Increased taxes. Do you know what this bill says? It says you get taxed an extra 8-20%. It says if you DON'T buy APPROVED health insurance, you have to pay more taxes. It says if companies don't provide you with health insurance, they have to pay fines.

Please go do some damn research before you say anything else.

Any legislation that was pivotal had unintended consequences but there is a legislative process that corrects those consequences as time continues. No law is perfect when it is first drawn up, this is why it is a process. Corporations such as Catepillar voice their concerns as they did in that letter and the officials of which we have elected determine if those grievances are valid against the need of the citizens. This is POLS101 but you want me to research? Trust me I am very well versed in politics, come with something that I don't explain to my 8 year old on a daily basis.

[Bajjani]

Any legislation that was pivotal had unintended consequences but there is a legislative process that corrects those consequences as time continues. No law is perfect when it is first drawn up, this is why it is a process. Corporations such as Catepillar voice their concerns as they did in that letter and the officials of which we have elected determine if those grievances are valid against the need of the citizens. This is POLS101 but you want me to research? Trust me I am very well versed in politics, come with something that I don't explain to my 8 year old on a daily basis.

Voice their concerns in this letter?

"We are disappointed that efforts at reform have not addressed the cost concerns we've raised throughout the year."

Democrats are making behind closed door deals and you're talking about a process? Really? Bribery? The problem with the Democrats is they IGNORED all the concerns, they didn't pay attention to ANY of the consequences, and they bribed their way through the voting process.

Take your POLS101 class elsewhere, I don't care what you think you know, you're talking like you don't know anything. You asked me to counter a statement that said "we're all caterpillar employees." The IMMEDIATE affects of this bill are increased taxes and costs to companies. The benefits won't be seen for at least two years. We're already in a recession. Where is the logic here? Explain to me how this is helping our country one tiny bit.

[tony]

Voice their concerns in this letter?

"We are disappointed that efforts at reform have not addressed the cost concerns we've raised throughout the year."

Democrats are making behind closed door deals and you're talking about a process? Really? Bribery? The problem with the Democrats is they IGNORED all the concerns, they didn't pay attention to ANY of the consequences, and they bribed their way through the voting process.

Take your POLS101 class elsewhere, I don't care what you think you know, you're talking like you don't know anything. You asked me to counter a statement that said "we're all caterpillar employees." The IMMEDIATE affects of this bill are increased taxes and costs to companies. The benefits won't be seen for at least two years. We're already in a recession. Where is the logic here? Explain to me how this is helping our country one tiny bit.

What legislation doesn't have closed door deals? That is a Washington problem not a healthcare problem.

My number one question that I have for people that want to quote increased taxes and cost of the bill, how do you think uninsured individuals have their medical bills paid under the current system? They obviously don't pay for it, the taxpayers do and yet the individuals incur a mountain of medical bills that they will never pay off. So whether we admit it or not under the current system taxpayers still pay medical bills for citizens and Illegal Immigrants.

I said what I did about being Catepillar employees because Catepillar employs maybe 100,000 individuals, shareholders are about 40,000 and stakeholders I don't know, we'll be generous and say 400,000-500,000.. There are over 30 million uninsured individuals, furthermore the job of elected officials is to do the good of the people, not the good of the Corporation, but that comment is based more on ideology. If you are a corporatist of course you would disagree.

[Bajjani]

What legislation doesn't have closed door deals? That is a Washington problem not a healthcare problem.

My number one question that I have for people that want to quote increased taxes and cost of the bill, how do you think uninsured individuals have their medical bills paid under the current system? They obviously don't pay for it, the taxpayers do and yet the individuals incur a mountain of medical bills that they will never pay off. So whether we admit it or not under the current system taxpayers still pay medical bills for citizens and Illegal Immigrants.

I said what I did about being Catepillar employees because Catepillar employs maybe 100,000 individuals, shareholders are about 40,000 and stakeholders I don't know, we'll be generous and say 400,000-500,000.. There are over 30 million uninsured individuals, furthermore the job of elected officials is to do the good of the people, not the good of the Corporation, but that comment is based more on ideology. If you are a corporatist of course you would disagree.

This is where it really kills me. Whats good for the people is to have a strong economy with a lot of jobs. This bill will make companies (not just corporations) have MORE cost per employee. That means less employees will be hired, and cuts will be made where cuts can be made. That means less jobs. That means more people getting free healthcare. That means taxes continue to rise. We're dooming ourselves to a cycle which will weaken our economy, in my opinion. This is going to slow if not halt our recovery.

[tony]

This is where it really kills me. Whats good for the people is to have a strong economy with a lot of jobs. This bill will make companies (not just corporations) have MORE cost per employee. That means less employees will be hired, and cuts will be made where cuts can be made. That means less jobs. That means more people getting free healthcare. That means taxes continue to rise. We're dooming ourselves to a cycle which will weaken our economy, in my opinion. This is going to slow if not halt our recovery.

Then you absolutely believe in Trickle Down Economics right?

[Bajjani]

Then you absolutely believe in Trickle Down Economics right?

I believe in logical reasoning.

[Vteckidd]

What legislation doesn't have closed door deals? That is a Washington problem not a healthcare problem.

Will you concede that this was NOT THE PROMISE Obama made during his campaign. This is not CHANGE if the same "washington politics" is being used. I thought this was supposed to be CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN, and CHANGING THE POLITICS OF OLD, and CHANGING WASHINGTON. What happened to all that? Instead the democrats did business as usual, except this time it was on a much larger scale than anything we have ever seen before. Ive said it MULTIPLE TIMES, they BRIBED people for votes, they brokered shady backdoor deals, they completely ignored their constituents IMO (although that will have to wait until november to be proven), and if the replublicans did it this way i would be saying the EXACT SAME THING. How did they pass this bill? They didnt do it the way our founders intended, they used a loophole, which yes has been used before, to pass something that is 15-20% of our economy. That in itself is wrong IMO

My number one question that I have for people that want to quote increased taxes and cost of the bill, how do you think uninsured individuals have their medical bills paid under the current system? They obviously don't pay for it, the taxpayers do and yet the individuals incur a mountain of medical bills that they will never pay off. So whether we admit it or not under the current system taxpayers still pay medical bills for citizens and Illegal Immigrants.

I agree 100000% , we are all paying for it SOMEHOW SOMEWAY under the current system. If you have insurance, you pay for people that dont already as that is built into your plan. We do not refuse medical care in the USA even if you are dead broke. However, no one is saying that we shouldnt fix this current system. I watch Rachel Maddows show last night just cause i like to watch the other side sometimes. Holy shit what a bunch of lies she was spreading saying "the republicans want to repeal this act and reinstate the current system that allows THEIR insurance companies to run things. They want people to die and go broke" That is totally FALSE. No one has EVER SAID THAT.

I beleive it is an ECONOMIC ISSUE, meaning we need to find ways to LOWER COST so people can AFFORD IT. Offer Tax Credits to businesses to give them incentive to provide a healthcare plan, im all for EMERGENCY CATASTROPHIC insurance for people so they can handle the big ticket items. There were ways of expanding coverage reasonably and easily without the govt takeover. There were ways to attack this without allowing the Govt to now dictate to the insurance companies what they can charge. I mean you realize that now an insurance company must burden the SAME COST as well as cover MORE people for LESS money right? In what economic world does that WORK?

As i have said 10029309023920 times medical care is not expensive. What do we deal with most? UTIs, strep throat, FLU, colds, sprains, broken bones , etc. Most colds, infections, sprains can be handled my RNs or NP at clinics often for prices LESS THAN $100. We needed to expand the RN and NP to deal with the easy stuff. I mean if you get cancer without insurance or a broken leg ,yes its incredibly expensive and we should have attacked ways to deal with that issue. But just blanket covering everyone doesnt solve it IMO

I said what I did about being Catepillar employees because Catepillar employs maybe 100,000 individuals, shareholders are about 40,000 and stakeholders I don't know, we'll be generous and say 400,000-500,000.. There are over 30 million uninsured individuals, furthermore the job of elected officials is to do the good of the people, not the good of the Corporation, but that comment is based more on ideology. If you are a corporatist of course you would disagree.

I agree with you on this actually. I agree that Catepillar in the scheme of things is a relatively small percentage of the uninsured. But how many other companies are going to go through with this? What if all major industries as we know it see these kind of cost increases?

My question to you is if these fortune 500 companies start seeing these kinds of cost increases, is it worth proving healthcare? How do you think they will recoupe these costs? Prudence demands a man of your intellect to know that either they will LAY PEOPLE OFF or they will RAISE THEIR PRICES, or they will FREEZE HIRING/WAGES.

SO like ive said all along you will have your healthcare at the expense of your job because this bill doesnt attack the ROOT causes of COST and why people cant afford it.

[Vteckidd]

Will you concede that this was NOT THE PROMISE Obama made during his campaign. This is not CHANGE if the same "washington politics" is being used. I thought this was supposed to be CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN, and CHANGING THE POLITICS OF OLD, and CHANGING WASHINGTON. What happened to all that? Instead the democrats did business as usual, except this time it was on a much larger scale than anything we have ever seen before. Ive said it MULTIPLE TIMES, they BRIBED people for votes, they brokered shady backdoor deals, they completely ignored their constituents IMO (although that will have to wait until november to be proven), and if the replublicans did it this way i would be saying the EXACT SAME THING. How did they pass this bill? They didnt do it the way our founders intended, they used a loophole, which yes has been used before, to pass something that is 15-20% of our economy. That in itself is wrong IMO


I agree 100000% , we are all paying for it SOMEHOW SOMEWAY under the current system. If you have insurance, you pay for people that dont already as that is built into your plan. We do not refuse medical care in the USA even if you are dead broke. However, no one is saying that we shouldnt fix this current system. I watch Rachel Maddows show last night just cause i like to watch the other side sometimes. Holy shit what a bunch of lies she was spreading saying "the republicans want to repeal this act and reinstate the current system that allows THEIR insurance companies to run things. They want people to die and go broke" That is totally FALSE. No one has EVER SAID THAT.

I beleive it is an ECONOMIC ISSUE, meaning we need to find ways to LOWER COST so people can AFFORD IT. Offer Tax Credits to businesses to give them incentive to provide a healthcare plan, im all for EMERGENCY CATASTROPHIC insurance for people so they can handle the big ticket items. There were ways of expanding coverage reasonably and easily without the govt takeover. There were ways to attack this without allowing the Govt to now dictate to the insurance companies what they can charge. I mean you realize that now an insurance company must burden the SAME COST as well as cover MORE people for LESS money right? In what economic world does that WORK?

As i have said 10029309023920 times medical care is not expensive. What do we deal with most? UTIs, strep throat, FLU, colds, sprains, broken bones , etc. Most colds, infections, sprains can be handled my RNs or NP at clinics often for prices LESS THAN $100. We needed to expand the RN and NP to deal with the easy stuff. I mean if you get cancer without insurance or a broken leg ,yes its incredibly expensive and we should have attacked ways to deal with that issue. But just blanket covering everyone doesnt solve it IMO



I agree with you on this actually. I agree that Catepillar in the scheme of things is a relatively small percentage of the uninsured. But how many other companies are going to go through with this? What if all major industries as we know it see these kind of cost increases?

My question to you is if these fortune 500 companies start seeing these kinds of cost increases, is it worth proving healthcare? How do you think they will recoupe these costs? Prudence demands a man of your intellect to know that either they will LAY PEOPLE OFF or they will RAISE THEIR PRICES, or they will FREEZE HIRING/WAGES.

SO like ive said all along you will have your healthcare at the expense of your job because this bill doesnt attack the ROOT causes of COST and why people cant afford it.

bump