Obama's "impartial" town hall meeting...

[BanginJimmy]

Wow...somehow TARP and Czars got brought into this?
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anyways
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One of the biggest problems with this health care issue is that it's an incredibly complex thing that involves a lot of unknowns and things that are hard to quantify. People seem to be listening more to politicians and political commentators than to doctors and economists. That's why you hear so many complaints about things that aren't even in the bill (e.g. death panels). I'm not implying there aren't plenty of reasonable objections out there, just that those aren't getting as much attention as the bullshit. Neither side has convinced me yet.

Doctors and economists have been quoted a few times in various threads. They all pretty much say the same things though.

Economists tell us that Obama's numbers dont work out and that socialized healthcare will cost about double what Obama's predictions say. They also say that Obama's cost savings will do little to nothing to offset costs and may even make it more expensive.

Doctors are telling us that tort law, malpractice insurance, and price fixing(medicare) are major factors in driving up costs. The only factor addressed in the current bill is medicare payments which this bill cuts. That would actually make the problem worse, not better.

What do you need to be convinced?

Costs? medicare was expected to cost about 100B over 10 years when it first came into effect, the real costs was about 9x that. In fact, every year medicare and medicaid pay out about 70B in fraudulent claims.

Quality? Ask anyone on medicare and medicaid how they feel about the quality of care. Then combine that with the quality of service that you get at the DMV and there you have it. It will take about 2 years and 2 trillion dollars before the first priority of socialized heathcare will be cost savings, quality will be a distant second.

[Total_Blender]

Quality? Ask anyone on medicare and medicaid how they feel about the quality of care.

Most people I know on Medicare/Medicaid are OK with the quality of care. And my dad and the other vets I know seem to like the VA (granted, Dad used to complain A LOT 5-6 years ago when he was fighting them over his Agent Orange benefits, but they have gotten better recently).

Rationing, quality of care, etc I really don't see how those are any different than what you'd get with a private insurance company. Private insurance denies treatments and "pulls the plug" on people all the time.

[David88vert]

Rationing, quality of care, etc I really don't see how those are any different than what you'd get with a private insurance company. Private insurance denies treatments and "pulls the plug" on people all the time.

Obama's healthcare bill does not rule out rationing, so people want to know what the rationing limits are before this kind of healthcare plan is enacted nationally. Is that too much to ask? So far, Democrats have been systematically side-stepping the question.

Good read on reality. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/ma...lthcare-t.html

[bu villain]

Doctors and economists have been quoted a few times in various threads. They all pretty much say the same things though.

Economists tell us that Obama's numbers dont work out and that socialized healthcare will cost about double what Obama's predictions say. They also say that Obama's cost savings will do little to nothing to offset costs and may even make it more expensive.

You think Obama is pulling his numbers out of his ass? He has economists who tell him what they think it'll cost. My point is that, not all economists agree but that too many people (not saying you are one of them) are complaining over talking points (e.g. death panels) which are not legitimate and it takes away from the legitimate concerns. I believe cost is a legitimate concern.

Doctors are telling us that tort law, malpractice insurance, and price fixing(medicare) are major factors in driving up costs. The only factor addressed in the current bill is medicare payments which this bill cuts. That would actually make the problem worse, not better.

I am 100% in favor of tort reform. It would be great if something like that could be added to this bill. If its not then hopefully another bill very soon.

What do you need to be convinced?

Costs? medicare was expected to cost about 100B over 10 years when it first came into effect, the real costs was about 9x that. In fact, every year medicare and medicaid pay out about 70B in fraudulent claims.

I personally don't feel well enough informed of what the true cost would be and so I can't make a fully informed decision. Even if Obama's estimate is wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't worth the cost. Also, instead of just throwing out a big number (70B) how about comparing it to on a per capita basis to what private insurers pay out in fraudulent claims. That would be a much more useful indicator.

Quality? Ask anyone on medicare and medicaid how they feel about the quality of care. Then combine that with the quality of service that you get at the DMV and there you have it. It will take about 2 years and 2 trillion dollars before the first priority of socialized heathcare will be cost savings, quality will be a distant second.

In my experience, people on medicare and medicaid are about as happy with it as people who are on private insurance plans.

[zspeed24]

In my experience, people on medicare and medicaid are about as happy with it as people who are on private insurance plans.

Most of these people have to pay for a suplimental insurance in order for everything to remain covered.

[bu villain]

Most of these people have to pay for a suplimental insurance in order for everything to remain covered.

Which is exactly why I think private insurance and a public option can coexist. The public option could cover a more basic level of coverage and then people can go to private companies to go above and beyond. The hard part is striking the right balance.

[David88vert]

Which is exactly why I think private insurance and a public option can coexist. The public option could cover a more basic level of coverage and then people can go to private companies to go above and beyond. The hard part is striking the right balance.

That is the only reasonable government involved option. That is possibly doable (key work possilby) if only the most basic life saving operations/treatment were covered for citizens and documented aliens (those here legally). Anything not critical would be covered privately.
Of course, emergency care cannot be denied currently, so why do we need more money thrown at it, and more government intervention?