Just wondering where every one stands on this issue. Personally I am totally against it, I think this will cause more issues than it will ever fix. If you look at every other country they have tried this it hurts the public as a whole.
Socialistic health care
Just wondering where every one stands on this issue. Personally I am totally against it, I think this will cause more issues than it will ever fix. If you look at every other country they have tried this it hurts the public as a whole.
Try not. Do or Do not.
Hurts the public how?
I was watching jeopardy the other week and the final jeopardy question was something along the lines of 'What are the emerging major economies in the world?' I forget the question verbatim, but there was four of them.
Brazil
Russia
India
China
Guess what they all have in common? Just take a guess...
edit: I just used up all my luck for the month cause I just happened to find the question.
Economically a universal healthcare plan is genius, short sightedness and partisan politics will have you believing that is the fall of a nation. I'll explain more when someone inevitably rebuts my point.Forbes magazine uses "BRIC", an acronym for these 4 large nations advancing in economic power
Last edited by tony; 06-16-2009 at 05:20 PM.
Originally Posted by tony
I will knock on your post a bit. China is a communist state. India has a class system. Neither is very forthright in their reporting of interior conditions to the international media.
I do know that none of those countries have healthcare that even approaches healthcare in the US though.
How do you think that universal healthcare is a good thing? We dont even have a way to pay for 1% of the annual costs.
are you serious? you think they're all emerging economies based mainly on the fact that they have socialized healthcare?
I will say that I am against any form of universal healthcare because of the huge costs and expansion of govt it will create. Because there is currently nothing to base a discussion on, I will only point out our govt's current destructive attempt at healthcare. Any reform plan that is endorsed by anyone that endorses Medicare will be horribly corrupt and wasteful. I do expect it to cost somewhere in the area of 1T a year though within 3 years of full inception. I get that number by taking Obama's price tag and multiplying it by 10.
I will say nothing further until dems (along with the RINO's) shit out a hot steamy turd of a bill and try to shove it down our throat.
England also has the same type of system we (USA) are trying to put into effect. Ask any Englishmen about their health care the woes that follow. If you think the ED are over crowded now just imagine the mass exodus by personnel ( MDs, DOs, RNs, LPNs, Techs, and other supportive staff) when they pay drops ( it's not the reason most of the medical field is in the profession). I also have in my possession the SMGs' ( Standard Medical Guidelines) that most English EMS services use. The government wont allow the Paramedics and EMTs in those services provide interventions unless certain parameters have been met. The issue with this style SMG is that certain Signs and symptoms are late and now means you have delayed pt care to a point that they are now considered critical. The reason they have to delay Pt ( patient ) care is because the governments (" competitive") health care plan will not pay for the interventions. On another note I personally know two paramedics that work in London, who have told me multiple horror stories where a pt could have been saved/salvaged if they could have performed certain interventions. The average wait in England for a surgery is close to 2 years. The average wait on advanced imaging appointments range form 6-8 months. Current wait times for any of the above in the US is approx. 1 week. The average wait time in one of England's ED ( emergency Dept.) is about 10-16 hours. This is just the waiting room times and it doesn't matter if you are triaged critical or noncritical. The average wait time in a US ED is about 5 hours. Now mind you these issues did not exists prior to the English socialized health care. Not to mention the almost $3 trillion price tag attached to it, and the fact that it will run private health insurance out of business.
Try not. Do or Do not.
One country doesn't define an entire healthcare system. Ask someone from France how much they enjoy their health care, or any of the 4 countries I referenced.. even Canada (I personally have friends there that laugh at our system)
And for the record I've waited months for an operation in our current system.. and waited an entire night for my son to get attention in the ER when he was having seizures, so to think that our system is great would be ignorant.. the laundry list of issues with our broken system goes on. Healthcare is not an industry that stands for profit, it is there for the people. You don't pay a premium for the Fire department to put the fire out in your house, obviously you couldn't do it yourself. You don't pay a premium for the police department either, these are basic necessities within a society.. and the ability to seek medical attention is no different.
From the Economic standpoint, imagine how much more entrepreneurship and innovation we would have when people don't have to worry about health care when they venture out on their own and start their business. Furthermore a lot of you get it F'd up when it comes to a universal plan, its not like nobody pays anything.. there is still a premium to pay but it is substantially less than the $200-$2000 a month premiums you see now.
Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, WHILE he was having seizures. What the hell? I'm restraining myself from taking that personal but I will chalk that up to ignorance. You don't call a "PCP" while your 2 year old child is seizing.
I think this why the opposition to an affordable healthcare plan is frail, there is barely an understanding of the REAL problem and it gets addressed with half ass bandaid fixes like calling your PCP. Fortunately I have probably one of the best health care plans in the country and I don't even pay for it but I still see how fallacious it is for millions of Americans to be without healthcare. Whole families of hardworking individuals getting laid off from GM, Ford, the banking industry, whatever left without any healthcare. Not only that but those with jobs are still paying ridiculous premiums to insure their family.
Now am I saying the people don't have a responsibility either? No, the reason why Hong Kong's plan works so well is because they really stress a healthy lifestyle and one of the dead weights on our current healthcare plan is obesity. That needs to be addressed and individuals need to take accountability of their own health as well.
No ignorance here it was a serious question, you said he was seizing without giving any more information. Typically with a child that age it is a febrile seizure activity, hence forth the question about contacting a PCP. 90% of the time the only issues that warrants a trip to the emergency room or calling 911 is if the seizure activity last for longer than 3-5 mins or if he is having repetitive seizures with little or no break in between. The later of the two above described seizure activity is known in the medical field as status epilepticcus and does warrant contacting 911. I did not mean anything said to be personal, or any of the question(s) to be to prying. Simply stating the majority of the fields opinion as I work in it on a daily basis. If I hurt your feelings I am truly sorry as I understand it was your child further more if you want to use an example please bring the supporting data to go along with it IE; how long it last ( not your geustimation but actual time), how may times it happened, and what the final diagnosis was.
Try not. Do or Do not.
No offense taken, reps given
I wont comment on France's sytem, but saying Canadians like their system over ours is either a lie, or 1 mans opinion. Every survey I have seen from Canada says that a vast majority hate their system because of the rationing and and the high costs. The Canadian govt had to go as far as outlawing private insurance because people with means were opting out of the plan.
I know all about the waiting lines in an emergency room. When you finally see the doc, they basicly blow you off. That isnt a product of our healthcare system though, that is a result of people using the ER for a PCP.
Yes, there are alot of issues, but not nearly as many as the issues with the current govt medical plan.
Why should it not be an industry to make a profit? Pharmacudical corporations risk 10's of millions of dollars to develop a drug. They should get all the profit they can on that one because the next one might not work or sell.
Not at all the same. FD and PD dont develop anything. They dont manufacture anything. You dont pay a premium for the grocery store either and food is also a basic necessity. Maybe you think the govt should take them over also?
And imagine the complete lack of innovation that is emblematic of Socialist healthcare states. Look at the massive taxes paid by the general population in those countries you listed. Look at the rationing and the lower quality care they have.
How much less? Who is going to pay the difference? How do you know it will be less as neither Obama, nor congress, have released any details.
The govt is already making me pay for the medical care from people too lazy to get an education and therefore a job. I know that is hard to swallow right now because of the economic and job issues, but that laziness is not a new condition and rewarding that will only make the problem worse. I would rather all those lazy asses starve to death or die of the common cold than use my money to pay for their food or medical care. I have no issues with the concept, not the current system, of paying for the retired or elderly, but paying for medical care for people perfectly capable of working is well beyond my realm of charity.
As for the 200-2000 a month, you get what you pay for. If you want a plan that costs you $50 a month, you can get a major medical plan. If you want on that pays for everything, you have to pay for it.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Government Healthcare is not the answer. I have also never seen anyone severly sick or seizing in an ER waiting. Not calling you a liar but if that was the case you should have taken that up with hospital administration, not blame it on the Govn't. People should take a look at the problems and figure out the cause and stand up to it yourself. Not immediately blame the government.
Not once did I blame the government, I knocked the current system. When people reference the long lines you have for a Universal Plan I reference the long wait we have under the current system.. the difference? One is more affordable than the other.
Considering the fact that no details have been furnished as to what type of healthcare system Obama wants I will call BS on this one. This type of conjecture from everyone from average posters on car forums to Senators will only hurt the fight to block it.
Actually in a round about way you do pay a premium for the fire dept and police dept. Let me rephrase you don't but buisnesses do. More often then not when a big company opens a store they will purchase an aperatus for the county or city, same goes for police. Any time a chemical or even a shipping company opens a ware house or plant guess who pays for the haz-mat training and aperatus... The new company. If a company has a spill they purchase new equipment for the response team as part of the fine. The other part of that premium is S.P.L.O.S.T. funds and not to mention speeding tickets, fines, fees, taxes. I am sorry you and you child had to wait all night in an ED but chances are there people there that were sicker than he was ( did you contact your pcp before rushin of to the ED chances are it would have saved you a trip). The reason you pay a premium for health care is because we use specalized equipment that is more or less 1 time use. Do you have any idea how much EMS and EDs hemorage on a daily basis because of Medicare and Medicaid? The group slated to run this new program run the aformemtioned ones. I agree our health system is broke, but governmet health insurance is not the answer.
Try not. Do or Do not.
Actually we rank 37th by the World Health Organization
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
I didnt see any criteria used to rank, they also quit ranking back in 2k. The WHO is also very anti American.
Wow, just WOW!
So, let's get this straight.........
Tony, you WANT the same gov't that heads up and oversees such efficient organizations as Medicare, WIC, Unemployment, VA, and Social Security (which is been at the edge of being bankrupt for YEARS, only to be kept above water by TAX PAYERS that will likely NEVER get to use a single "benefit" from it when it's THEIR turn at it)????? That SAME gov't???? The one that has so much red tape that it takes a VETERAN more time to get the same treatment a CIVILIAN, and far more often than not when they finally do get it it's sub par???? THAT gov't???? All in the name of what? Saving money? Really? A bargain is only a bargain if you receive something of VALUE. Sub par medical care is better than none, but STILL WORSE than proper care regardless of cost.
No disrespect with this analogy at all, but how would you of felt if when your son was seizing the staff at the hospital told you that they could only give him an aspirin or you had to wait 6 mos to have him CT scanned???? Or how about if they'd told you that you could ONLY see Dr. Frankenstein, because he's the only one "approved" under the Universal Health Plan, to just find out whats wrong with your son? Do you really want to be neutered in your choices of medical care by some politician on the hill in D.C. that has never sat in an E.R. with his/her son seizing dictating what, when, and where YOU take your child for necessary care????? I damn sure don't.
If centralized healthcare was such a great thing, why are Canadians PAYING out of their own life savings to cross the border and receive health care THEIR gov't has denied them? There are not just one or two cases of that. Matter of fact, I read about a company that is taking advantage of that and arranging for Canadians to travel to the U.S. for medical care due to the volume of people wanting it.
If someone else telling you what to do and money saving was the ultimate goal, why are HMO's not as popular health plan when people are given a CHOICE here in the U.S.? It saves you money, right? So why is it that the overwhelming majority of working Americans CHOOSE to PAY higher premiums to have more CHOICES and FLEXIBILITY? Is it because they like to waste money, or is it because they recognize or have experienced the downfalls of having someone in a suit making choices for them about their health care? I can tell you from experience of having had BOTH an HMO and a regular full choice health insurance that I most definetly prefer the latter.
Have you ever been to any of those 4 countries that you mentioned are all happy go lucky with their centralized gov't run health care system? Go there. Break a leg or cut yourself there. See how long it takes to be seen. See what kind of "care" you get. I've seen with my own eyes hospitals in other countries where patients, bleeding, seizing, really hurt patients are left literally in the hall way on a stretcher WAITING to be seen for DAYS because they have NO doctors nor room in their "gov't" hospitals. I had a cousin that almost delivered one of my nephews on the floor in the hallway at one of those great "gov't" hospitals while just waiting to be seen......6 hours later. 6 hours! And she was contracting, water broke, screaming in pain pregnant. Even Ray Charles could see she was delivering.
So please, don't give me this nice rosy view of how Obama's idea about saving money is so great. All it does is make gov't BIGGER and MORE in control over it's masses.......wait, that sounds an awful lot like????? Socialism maybe? Hmmmm, funny how that works. Didn't the most suppressive socialist governments in HISTORY use propaganda to convince their masses that what they were doing was for THEIR good, THEIR advancement.......we all know how that turned out.....even if you only read public school textbooks you know the answer to that.
Keep politicians out of your life. That's what will make your life better.
You should listen to this guy. He speaketh the TRUTH.Wow, just WOW!
So, let's get this straight.........
Tony, you WANT the same gov't that heads up and oversees such efficient organizations as Medicare, WIC, Unemployment, VA, and Social Security (which is been at the edge of being bankrupt for YEARS, only to be kept above water by TAX PAYERS that will likely NEVER get to use a single "benefit" from it when it's THEIR turn at it
No disrespect with this analogy at all, but how would you of felt if when your son was seizing the staff at the hospital told you that they could only give him an aspirin or you had to wait 6 mos to have him CT scanned???? Or how about if they'd told you that you could ONLY see Dr. Frankenstein, because he's the only one "approved" under the Universal Health Plan, to just find out whats wrong with your son? Do you really want to be neutered in your choices of medical care by some politician on the hill in D.C. that has never sat in an E.R. with his/her son seizing dictating what, when, and where YOU take your child for necessary care????? I damn sure don't.
If centralized healthcare was such a great thing, why are Canadians PAYING out of their own life savings to cross the border and receive health care THEIR gov't has denied them? There are not just one or two cases of that. Matter of fact, I read about a company that is taking advantage of that and arranging for Canadians to travel to the U.S. for medical care due to the volume of people wanting it.
If someone else telling you what to do and money saving was the ultimate goal, why are HMO's not as popular health plan when people are given a CHOICE here in the U.S.? It saves you money, right? So why is it that the overwhelming majority of working Americans CHOOSE to PAY higher premiums to have more CHOICES and FLEXIBILITY? Is it because they like to waste money, or is it because they recognize or have experienced the downfalls of having someone in a suit making choices for them about their health care? I can tell you from experience of having had BOTH an HMO and a regular full choice health insurance that I most definetly prefer the latter.
Have you ever been to any of those 4 countries that you mentioned are all happy go lucky with their centralized gov't run health care system? Go there. Break a leg or cut yourself there. See how long it takes to be seen. See what kind of "care" you get. I've seen with my own eyes hospitals in other countries where patients, bleeding, seizing, really hurt patients are left literally in the hall way on a stretcher WAITING to be seen for DAYS because they have NO doctors nor room in their "gov't" hospitals. I had a cousin that almost delivered one of my nephews on the floor in the hallway at one of those great "gov't" hospitals while just waiting to be seen......6 hours later. 6 hours! And she was contracting, water broke, screaming in pain pregnant. Even Ray Charles could see she was delivering.
So please, don't give me this nice rosy view of how Obama's idea about saving money is so great. All it does is make gov't BIGGER and MORE in control over it's masses.......wait, that sounds an awful lot like????? Socialism maybe? Hmmmm, funny how that works. Didn't the most suppressive socialist governments in HISTORY use propaganda to convince their masses that what they were doing was for THEIR good, THEIR advancement.......we all know how that turned out.....even if you only read public school textbooks you know the answer to that.
Keep politicians out of your life. That's what will make your life better.
Plus, having FIRST HAND experience with such a system, I can absolutely tell you: IT IS A BAD IDEA.
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
just for the record, almost all my family still lives in china. my mom was once an RN there a long time ago. i've had my fair share of exposure to what happens in the hospitals there. sure it's for the most part "free" or of low cost and available to everyone, but goodluck trying to get in when you really need to. there's a reason that ppl with money will "tip" their way into better doctors and less wait times. in fact when my cousin was diagnosed with leukemia 3 yrs ago, we had to seek quite a few connections to get him into a good clinic to be treated, else he would've been sol.
Not once have I mentioned Obama in my post but he still gets thrown in. Again, a lot of you don't understand the structure of a Universal Healthcare system.. you see this program of everything government.. government hospitals, government equipment, government (enter whatever you want).
A universal system does nothing but reduce the cost of healthcare so it is easily affordable and obtainable for persons like me who can afford coverage and those making $6.50 an hour who cannot. It also takes away the notion that life decisions our decided on a cost basis and not a need basis. For every story I hear about someone in another country WAITING for something I can give you another story of someone REJECTED because they did not have adequate insurance or the procedure was not cost effective.
With a Universal System you still have the private industry.. all the plan is doing is providing coverage. Is it perfect? No, but at the least you don't have millions of citizens walking around without health insurance which inadvertently still costs the taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars.
What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system. I don't see how some of you can think it has this great negative impact but can't fathom the idea that it has a great impact in another way as well.are you serious? you think they're all emerging economies based mainly on the fact that they have socialized healthcare?
Arguing for the sake of arguing gets old.. nothing is taken away from it but "you are wrong and I am right." The opposing views here, I'll take the time to research each one and reconsider my position.
i'm sorry but that just doesn't make any lick of sense to me. things that they do have in common that can actually contribute to their economic upturn can be items they export, surge in jobs due to cheap/readily available labor, a government not in chaos, but universal healthcare??? really???
i can't speak to each of those countries in great detail, but it is pretty common knowledge that russia obviously has dissolved (at least on paper) its communist regime. china has long been instituting more capitalistic ideas which has greatly helped its economy flourish. india has been a hotbed of at least call center jobs. brazil, i have no clue, maybe ed can chip in.
Dude, you really don't get it do you? Do you even know HOW they will reduce the cost of healthcare? For one, to give you GENERIC medicine. Say goodbye to your Allegra and your Claritin... here's a box of tissues. (just to put it in a perspective/ example). And they will only operate you when it is ultimately and absolutely necessary. No, for real. They will try everything and the kitchen sink hoping that you will die before that costly operation. Trust me man. Cost cutting and medical care do not belong together. I would definitely do not want to be in a country where they are CUTTING CORNERS with my health to make it 'affordable' for the rest.
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
Let me give you one example of first hand experience: Say right now you have a nice medical benefit that includes dental, vision and health. Here comes Socialist Medicine:
you: "Hi Doctor"
Doctor: Hey there.. ok so let's see what we're dealing with here.....
hmmm.. looks like you're going to need braces. That'll be $ 2000
You: "impossible.. here's my social healthcare card'
Yes, but that only covers for MEDICAL procedures
You: 'and?...;
Well, under the policy, braces are considered a cosmetic procedure. It is not life threatening, hence not medical...
You: ' oh....'
Yes, I also see that you have some cavities.... and oh.. I see a tooth here that would need a crown.. would that be ceramic or porcelain?
You: 'hmm whichever is nicer'
Doctor: The porcelain is 4000 and the ceramic is 6500
You: 'but my social healthcare...'
Doctor: yes yes, I told you already..... it only covers medical issues. Crowns are a cosmetic addition. They are not necessary. A man can live without teeth. Not life threatening.
You: 'Ok ok.. well, is there ANY procedure that my social healthcare covers???'
Doctor: ' why yes... it covers cavities....'
You: ' Great !! it covers the filling?'
Doctor: " No... it only covers the removal of the tooth... "
You: '.............'
Doctor: "but look at the bright side.... with the social healthcare, you get 2 yearly checkups for free... ain't it a DEAL???"
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
$6500 for cavities - you are an idiot, an obvious lemming of the propaganda machine.Let me give you one example of first hand experience: Say right now you have a nice medical benefit that includes dental, vision and health. Here comes Socialist Medicine:
you: "Hi Doctor"
Doctor: Hey there.. ok so let's see what we're dealing with here.....
hmmm.. looks like you're going to need braces. That'll be $ 2000
You: "impossible.. here's my social healthcare card'
Yes, but that only covers for MEDICAL procedures
You: 'and?...;
Well, under the policy, braces are considered a cosmetic procedure. It is not life threatening, hence not medical...
You: ' oh....'
Yes, I also see that you have some cavities.... and oh.. I see a tooth here that would need a crown.. would that be ceramic or porcelain?
You: 'hmm whichever is nicer'
Doctor: The porcelain is 4000 and the ceramic is 6500
You: 'but my social healthcare...'
Doctor: yes yes, I told you already..... it only covers medical issues. Crowns are a cosmetic addition. They are not necessary. A man can live without teeth. Not life threatening.
You: 'Ok ok.. well, is there ANY procedure that my social healthcare covers???'
Doctor: ' why yes... it covers cavities....'
You: ' Great !! it covers the filling?'
Doctor: " No... it only covers the removal of the tooth... "
You: '.............'
Doctor: "but look at the bright side.... with the social healthcare, you get 2 yearly checkups for free... ain't it a DEAL???"
Under Canada`s plan dental care is provided up until you are 10 years old. Then you are on your own, most decent employers provide a dental plan since it is fairly cheap. And if you dont have a dental plan, dental care in the province I live in is less than half what it cost in Georgia. I know I have lived in both places and I have been sick in both places as well.
I had a very severe inflamation of the intestine here in Canada. I went to the ER, got a private room almost instantly (within the hour) saw a doctor, they hooked me up on an IVY antibiotic solution, the next day I passed a Cat Scan because they wanted to make sure there hadent been a tear anywhere in my system. Spent 3 days in my own room at the hospital with a nurse could walk in 30 seconds after I press the little button. After 3 days I had recovered they sent me home with an appointment to come back a week later. A week later they did a colonoscopy just to make sure everything was still good in there.
Is UHC expensive - yes it is. Is it the horrible system the right wing propaganda machine makes it out to be. Most defenetly not.
If I was poor i'd rather be sick in Canada than in the US
If I was middle class, I'd rather be sick in Canada than in the US
If I was rich, I'd rather be sick in the US than in Canada
But I'll tell you about a system that I think is crappy, a half socialised system where anyone can get the care they need but where only a segment ofusers pay for and where the insurance company get their cut no matter what. A system where you, the insured, pays for a person who can afford to put 24's on a new Tahoe but doesnt buy healthcare because they dont want to pay for it.
this has been a very interesting thread. i've been hearing the news on this and have been doing research trying to get more informed. while i'm generally leaning away from UHC...i think jfman's statement above pretty sums it up exactly.
i'd like to ask you guys this - how responsible should we be for our neighbor's health/well-being? and how does that weigh against how responsible ppl should be for their OWN health/well-being? what do you think is a good ratio?
Learn to read before replying.
I said $ 6500 for dental crown.
...idiot...
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
If you were poor, of course you would want free healthcare.
Middle class, of course you would want healthcare, but what is the REAL cost of it? You get what you pay for.
If you were rich, you would stay as far from Canada as you could. Low quality care compared to American standards. Also VERY expensive. It is actually more costly for the average person than the American system, people just dont see it because it is embedded into their taxes.
This is exactly what the dems are proposing. Make those evil rich people that prey on you poor underprivileged folk pay for it. I wonder how long it will take for companies to start eliminating healthcare completely after the dems get health benefits taxed on top of taxing the business at a higher rate.
I'll gladly wait an extra hour or two..even a month I don't care if it means that the person that is building the roads I drive on, the individual who makes my sandwich at Subway.. the teacher who teaches my child in school can all get the healthcare they require because currently a lot of them cannot.
And I have Cigna Dental coverage and still paid that much for braces, again.. seems like the only difference between the current plan and a universal plan is affordability. I give you real life examples, you give me propaganda stories to attempt to scare people to agree with you. I'll put my original statement Standard form, let me know if it is invalid.
There are 4 major countries emerging economically.
Of that 4, all of them operate under a Universal Healthcare system that provides affordable healthcare to their citizens.
It is safe to say that a Universal plan has contributed to the success of these rising economies.
i still need more hard facts/numbers in order to believe that. otherwise it is a mere coincidence, just like they all have paved roads, running water and electricity.
Mere coincidence? This is exactly what I'm talking about, the inability to rationally consider the opposing view rather than opposing just because.
There are what.. like 200 independent countries recognized here in the U.S. 30 of those provide universal healthcare to their citizens.. 7% of all independent countries but 4 of the 7% sit at the top of the list economically and you think it is coincidence? That is no coincidence, statistically not even for 1 of those countries should be on the list.
Healthcare is a MAJOR facet of an economy, its not just roads. That is like saying the education system has nothing to do with society.
There is alot more to an economy than healthcare. Which ones of the countries you listed can really be trusted to accurately illustrate the level of coverage they have. India still has a class system and many rural areas that have barely basic medicine. The same is true of Brazil. China is a communist state and any news that comes out of the country is suspect at best. Russia's economy is just starting to develop so of course they have a huge boom in economic activity. None of their economies are based in the healthcare industry either. So yes, I will call it a coincidence.
You didnt mention the complete lack of healthcare innovation that arises from socialist medicine countries. Why do you think that is?
This is Obama's baby, so of course his name is going to be thrown in. You dont understand what they want to do either, as no bill has been presented.
What else would like you to call a govt mandated healthcare plan? The govt sets the rates, they set the deductibles, they set the level of care you are allowed to get. Everything will be determined by the govt, and when healthcare gets more expensive, the govt will simply step in and take over healthcare completely.
Just look at what medicare/medicaid does to healthcare now. It is grossly expensive, hemorrhaging with with fraud, and employs practices that would be illegal for a private insurance company to use. The added costs of doing medicare business are paid by people that pay for their insurance.
How do you think it will do that? Medicare currently has 200 million people paying into the plan and it is broke, at the same time it is causing docs to pass costs on to private insurance because Medicare pays a set price for a procedure, whether it covers the costs or not.
Now you double the ranks of people using the system, and claim it will be cheaper?
Let me guess, that wont happen because Obama says so right? Get off the kool-aid bro, it is really rotting your brain. The ONLY thing that every universal plan has in common, from India, to Brazil, to Cuba, is rationing of care based on cost and age.
Absolutely wrong and it has been proven wrong every time it has been tried. Hawaii is a perfect example in the US. They had a program for subsidized healthcare for children only, and it lasted a whole 7 months before it exceeded 2 years worth of budget. Why did this happen? Because working people saw that they could save a ton of money by letting the govt pay for their kids care instead of them paying for it themselves.
Canada is another great example. A law was passed in Canada to outlaw docs from using private insurance. How do you think the private insurance industry is doing in Canada when it is illegal for people to use it?
There is a lot more to an economy than healthcare but healthcare makes up 60% of the GDP in any given country, don't give me that crap about it doesn't matter. Gov't moves mail and freight every day but FedEx and UPS are still competitive.. just one example of the government being a part of a private industry that is still competitive.
Hawaii budgeted their universal healthcare for those children who did not have coverage, what ended up happening was people DROPPING their oh so great private coverage to get the universal coverage.. which the program did not account for. If there is something to blame for the Child Healthcare in Hawaii blame it on bad planning, not the system. Apparently the system was good enough for people to drop their private coverage.
wtf???? facts and proof now bc that reeks of bs.
You're right I'm way off, I was quoting funding for the Recovery Act that is being proposed. Around 15% is the range of GDP for healthcare in the U.S, I had to go and look rather than remember. Interestingly enough while looking I noticed that our spending under the current system is higher percentage wise than all other countries except for one in all U.N countries.
I also found that Pharmaceutical sales went up 22% in the countries I quoted, Pharmaceutical companies actually expanded into these markets because of the opportunities.. that is kind of on the contrary to this idea that there is no private market under a universal system.
healthcare is 17% of America's GDP.
US Mail is also heavily subsidized and costs tax payers billions a year. If the post office was expected to be self sufficient it would not be competitive.
The same will be true of socialist healthcare. If it is expected to be self sufficient it will be hugely expensive and provide lower quality than a private plan. If it will be funded by taxes, it will be hugely expensive, although to a differnt payer, and provide lower quality care.
I'm anxiously awaiting a response of the gap in Healthcare GDP in the US vs other countries with a Universal Plan that have lower GDP percentages and expansion of pharmaceuticals in their countries. If our current system is so great and the scare of universal care is the cost then why is our system the most costly compared to other countries?
never said our current system is "great" or even close to it, but that doesn't mean converting to universal healthcare would make it go down either. it's a shitty system indeed, but mostly for the really poor and well, i don't really want to get into a discussion/debate on what i think about the really poor and how a lot of them handle their own situations any way.
fact of the matter is, to me, if you can work and do work and make somewhat smart decisions in your life then you should have no problems being able to afford a healthcare plan that won't bankrupt you.
The fact that they have care is only part of the issue. You also have to ask how much it costs, what kind of quality there is, and how much access there is to it.
I should have stuck with my first impulse and not entered this thread until there is a bill to discuss. Everything we are talking about right now means absolutely nothing as the bill that we get out of congress will most likely not look at all like any other country's system. Right now, I base my comparisons on medicare because that is what we currently have. When we actually have a bill to look at, I will come back to this thread, or most likely start a new one to discuss that.
Bottom line about all this really is:
CONTROL/VOTES.
It's really simple. Does anyone want the Gov't to be in charge of the health care system? Look at how they do with the things they oversee NOW. Medicare, Social Security, VA, HUD, Medicaid, IRS, etc. Are any of those shining examples on how to run anything? Any of those supporting or self sustaining? Any of those at the top of anyone's "prefer" list? Yet all of the masses are lining up and salivating about this "free" health care they so deeply desire, i.e. leaves them more money to buy other things, without ever stopping to think about the very first question.......WHO is going to be in charge of this? The Gov't is who. The same one that is chock full of lifetime politicians who have never worked in the private sector in their entire life yet are going to be making CEO-like decisions that could ultimately cost many their lives. Hmmmmmm, that sounds logical to me......
So we FIRE our leader every 4 to 8 years, only to jump up and down and make him now our supreme ruler over our health.......all in the name of castrating you and guaranteed votes.......yummy yummy for my tummy, sounds delicious.
People are so gullibable. Just because it says "free" somewhere they think it COSTS nothing all the time. Tell you what, I got "free" turds for all of ya......want em?.....but they're "free", right????? Polish a turd all you want, in the end......it's always going to be a turd. Bigger Gov't is that same turd only polished and BIGGER. Want some???? Be my guest. I'll pass.
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