Affirmative Action

[tony]

This conversation came up briefly yesterday. The basis of the conversation is that the Coast Guard has a program (of which I am looking into) where you can get a guarantee into Pilot training, but it is based on the demographics of the school you graduate from. (25% or more minority population) The initiative is to add diversity to the force. The program is not Affirmative Action because a white male at one of these schools qualifies, while a black male at a different school would not.

The convo got me to thinking. I've never been a staunch supporter of Affirmative Action, I do not think it is the role of government to force a company to diversify. But I do admire a company who prides itself on a diverse workforce, matter of fact I am more likely to spend my money with a company that takes care of its employees and offer opportunities that may not have been there before for certain people. Coca Cola, Delta, and companies in the like go out of their way to have diversity.

So my question is how do you feel about a corporation putting emphasis on diversity in their work place? And is Affirmative Action a form of reverse racism? Lets keep it mature, stupidity will not be tolerated. That is what the Whoreslounge is for.

[Tracy]

I am torn because I believe in diversity. At the same time, I believe that the BEST QUALIFIED applicant should get a job.

I understand the reasoning behind incentives for companies who diversify, because otherwise there could be a "conspiracy" to outcast certain people from certain jobs. I'm not sure that makes sense, so I will try to clarify. Let's just say that ACME is a billion dollar corporation with 10 board members who all play golf together on the weekends (birds of a feather type thing), etc. They are all good ol' boys who were raised that a N* has no place in a company like theirs. They could all confidentially band together and say we will never hire a N*. I mean, I know it happens. I would like to think that it doesn't in this day in age, but based just on comments from IA board members (not to mention ppl I know and see on TV, etc.), people still are racist. The incentives for companies who diversify makes sense on that type of level for me.

I don't agree with it because, like I already mentioned, I believe that the person BEST QUALIFIED for the job should get it. I don't believe that a Mexican should get a job just because he is Mexican and the company has a quota to meet, even though there might be a more qualified Caucasian.

I wish, and I know this is far fetched even in todays world of a black president, that we could all just get along. No pun intended. Then we wouldn't even have to have this discussion and the best person for the job would always get it. Utopia!

[Vteckidd]

My answer is kinda short, best candidate for the job.

Minority is a term that means there is less of one thing than another.

So in my opinion OF COURSE THERE IS GOING TO BE MORE WHITES WITH "xxxx" JOBS BECAUSE THERE IS MORE OF US. Thats what happens with a Majority.

Lets Diversify COngress please

Seriously though, i have no problems with funding education for less fortunate to a point, offering scholarships, work programs, training to people that may otherwise just not be able to make it. But im not for "you're a minority, you get the job cause too many white guys are here"

Thats racism.

its a touchy subject because if used correctly, it can be a good ting, but most often its used wrongly

[Vteckidd]

I am torn because I believe in diversity. At the same time, I believe that the BEST QUALIFIED applicant should get a job.

I understand the reasoning behind incentives for companies who diversify, because otherwise there could be a "conspiracy" to outcast certain people from certain jobs. I'm not sure that makes sense, so I will try to clarify. Let's just say that ACME is a billion dollar corporation with 10 board members who all play golf together on the weekends (birds of a feather type thing), etc. They are all good ol' boys who were raised that a N* has no place in a company like theirs. They could all confidentially band together and say we will never hire a N*. I mean, I know it happens. I would like to think that it doesn't in this day in age, but based just on comments from IA board members (not to mention ppl I know and see on TV, etc.), people still are racist. The incentives for companies who diversify makes sense on that type of level for me.

I don't agree with it because, like I already mentioned, I believe that the person BEST QUALIFIED for the job should get it. I don't believe that a Mexican should get a job just because he is Mexican and the company has a quota to meet, even though there might be a more qualified Caucasian.

I wish, and I know this is far fetched even in todays world of a black president, that we could all just get along. No pun intended. Then we wouldn't even have to have this discussion and the best person for the job would always get it. Utopia!

ok we really need to stop posting the same thing, this is 2 days in a row now, its like the twilight zone

[stephen]

tracy & kidd make excellent points. there's only one thing that i see A LITTLE different. creating diversity (because you have too much of one color) isn't necessarily a bad thing. there are plenty of black and white ppl who NEED to spend more time with the other race. i believe that will have an extremely positive effect on society as a whole. i don't think i'd be far off by saying that: think about your closest associates/friends that are a different race (outside of just IA). chances are you met those people at school or work.

of course, this wouldn't be positive for every job or person out there. it's just another way of viewing it.

[SLOWLYbtngU]

This conversation came up briefly yesterday. The basis of the conversation is that the Coast Guard has a program (of which I am looking into) where you can get a guarantee into Pilot training, but it is based on the demographics of the school you graduate from. (25% or more minority population) The initiative is to add diversity to the force. The program is not Affirmative Action because a white male at one of these schools qualifies, while a black male at a different school would not.

The convo got me to thinking. I've never been a staunch supporter of Affirmative Action, I do not think it is the role of government to force a company to diversify. But I do admire a company who prides itself on a diverse workforce, matter of fact I am more likely to spend my money with a company that takes care of its employees and offer opportunities that may not have been there before for certain people. Coca Cola, Delta, and companies in the like go out of their way to have diversity.

So my question is how do you feel about a corporation putting emphasis on diversity in their work place? And is Affirmative Action a form of reverse racism? Lets keep it mature, stupidity will not be tolerated. That is what the Whoreslounge is for.

When I was interning at the AJC I worked under the VP of Diversity and he was the one that made me realize how important diversity in the workplace was. I never really put any mind to it. Not that I didnt care but just never thought of it. I realized through him that sometimes the simplest things to me could be much more complex to a person from a different culture or background. I am all for companies that emphasize diversity, just as long as the minority/majority are the RIGHT choice. Meaning that they deserve the job because they are qualified and not because it's cool to just add a person to the workplace from Tonga....

[Tracy]

ok we really need to stop posting the same thing, this is 2 days in a row now, its like the twilight zone

Well, we used to like each other for A LONG TIME.

[Vteckidd]

tracy & kidd make excellent points. there's only one thing that i see A LITTLE different. creating diversity (because you have too much of one color) isn't necessarily a bad thing. there are plenty of black and white ppl who NEED to spend more time with the other race. i believe that will have an extremely positive effect on society as a whole. i don't think i'd be far off by saying that: think about your closest associates/friends that are a different race (outside of just IA). chances are you met those people at school or work.

of course, this wouldn't be positive for every job or person out there. it's just another way of viewing it.

there is something to be said for that, never really thought of it that way. This is a global economy, and working across races /religions/ creeds is prob a necessity in todays work place.

Interesting point.

Tracy, memories, like the corner of my mind............

[Tracy]

tracy & kidd make excellent points. there's only one thing that i see A LITTLE different. creating diversity (because you have too much of one color) isn't necessarily a bad thing. there are plenty of black and white ppl who NEED to spend more time with the other race. i believe that will have an extremely positive effect on society as a whole. i don't think i'd be far off by saying that: think about your closest associates/friends that are a different race (outside of just IA). chances are you met those people at school or work.

of course, this wouldn't be positive for every job or person out there. it's just another way of viewing it.

I agree with this totally! I believe that interaction definitely opens peoples eyes to other cultures and races. I mean, look at stupid (and I do mean stupid) things like The Real World. There is ALWAYS someone who has never hung out with a black person or a gay person and that person is always surprised that the "different" person is pretty much the "same" as they are. A lot of them say the experience changed their lives.

So, excellent post! I still believe that the best qualified should get the job. My dad is working his way through being a racists. Mostly because he has 2 black nephews that live in his house now. We used to fight about this constantly because I felt so bad for my sisters. My dad was really mean with some of the things he would say. I would NEVER let it slide. I always brought up this point (my dad is a 3 pk a day smoker): If you had a heart attack would you rather die than have the best doctor, who happens to be black, work on you? OR, would you rather have a less qualified white person work on you? of course, I would never get an answer, but I already knew what it was

[quickdodge®]

I am torn because I believe in diversity. At the same time, I believe that the BEST QUALIFIED applicant should get a job.

This really should NOT be a topic of discussion. This should be a "case-closed" order. I don't necessarily see your position as being "torn," Tracy. There is nothing wrong in believing in diversity while knowing that the best person for the job should be the one with the job.

This is a common sense question for which people make it senseless. Later, QD.

[Tracy]

This really should NOT be a topic of discussion. This should be a "case-closed" order. I don't necessarily see your position as being "torn," Tracy. There is nothing wrong in believing in diversity while knowing that the best person for the job should be the one with the job.

This is a common sense question for which people make it senseless. Later, QD.

I believe the best person for the job should get it, period. Like I already explained, but will do again, I am torn because I know there are still a lot of racist people in the world. The best person for the job may, in fact, be a minority. Because the world is still full of racism and the best person suited for the job may not get it in the type of example I mentioned above, I understand the want/need for diversity incentives for companies. If everyone knew how to behave ethically, we wouldn't even have to have this discussion. The unfortunate thing is – they don't and they have to be babysat.

[quickdodge®]

If everyone knew how to behave ethically, we wouldn't even have to have this discussion.

That's what I said. I just the phrase "common sense" in place of ethics. There's nothing wrong with a diversified workforce as long as everyone can/will pull their weight to the benefit of the company and consumer. Later, QD.

[Tracy]

That's what I said. I just the phrase "common sense" in place of ethics. There's nothing wrong with a diversified workforce as long as everyone can/will pull their weight to the benefit of the company and consumer. Later, QD.

Well, hell yea! :High Five: since we are on the same page!

[techlord]

In my experience with large companies including those that particularly serve the gov't it is IMO crap. While I personally do believe it is good to diversify but as everyone else has said the BEST should get the job and I know for a fact that this is not happening.

In fact, I have been told by personal friends as I was trying to move up the ladder that the mandate comes from HR most of the time.
Example: HR approves a list of 10 candidates (to hiring manager) the top 5 are HIGHLY recommended and justification MUST be provided for not choosing those. Corporations mandate their diversity and I think it is BS.

[tony]

Corporations mandate their diversity and I think it is BS.

BS if the person is still qualified? Maybe those "minorities" are qualified but are often overlooked in the recruitment process. Its one scenario but my point is just because a company chooses to diversify doesn't mean they are picking the less qualified candidate.

[techlord]

absolutely not...well qualified or best candidate? I am saying take the absolute best. My buddy for instance I had apply for a position that I know for a fact he was the best candidate (I do the same work and am the lead not the mgr) the guy is a technical genius but was passed up for someone qualified but not the best. I personally want to surround myself with the best of the best.

In addition what do you mean by overlooked in the process? Based on color of skin? I simply cannot believe that...look at our president elect, the majority HAS spoken. I am not saying there is not some bad apples out there, s*** even in law enforcement. Look at the recent shooting in Oakland, that cop is a POS. The rioting after the fact is stupid. Where is the end I dont know...

[stephen]

In addition what do you mean by overlooked in the process? Based on color of skin? I simply cannot believe that...look at our president elect, the majority HAS spoken.

you can't just look at ONE situation. just because the nation came together and elected a black president, doesn't mean as much as you think it does. take tracy's example for instance. she specifically stated that her father has "racist" beliefs, right? she knows, just like him and anyone else, that if his life was placed into the hands of a QUALIFIED black doctor...then he'll put his "racist ways" behind him in order to preserve himself. our nation has reached a point that no one has seen or imagined in YEARS, and obama SOLD himself to the people...bottom line. it wasn't like everyone got together and was like "hey...you know, we need a black president...let's not pass this one by."

on another note, there's a number of reasons why qualified people are passed over. you can't just use the excuse of race just because it's there (although we know that's an issue that DOES exist). one of the primary reasons is because it's cheaper. have you ever heard the term "over-qualified?" affirmative action allows EVERYONE the opportunity to pull the race card (as it seems in your post), that's the down side. if HR told your boy "hey, sorry...we need a black guy, maybe next time..." then i understand your gripe. i'm sure that wasn't the case, otherwise you might have a nice lawsuit on your hands.

[BABY J]

Food For Thought:

Should there be commemorative plates for Obama being the first African-American president? Or should he just be considered the next President?

Should they have made such a big deal when Dungy and Lovie Smith met up in the Super as the first black coaches to coach against each other in a Super Bowl?

The media hypes this shit up and puts it in people minds daily it seems.

Obama, Dungy, and Smith are all people, that have all accomplished something, not because they are black, but because of their hard work. I don't understand all of this? Aren't we past this as a society? (I know the answer) I look around the I.T career. Lots of whites. Lots of Indians (w/ a dot, not a feather - LOL), lots of Russians, lots of Israelis... not many blacks. With that said, I have NO problem saying that I am the REAL DEAL in this arena. NOT bc I am black - but bc I work hard - PERIOD. Furthermore - I am thinker. If you take those 2 traits and put them in ANY1 then they will be equally successful or more. It's not brain surgery. Do I feel like I have to be twice as good as the next white engineer - you bet your fucking ass -- and THEN some. But not b/c I am black, but b/c that is part of who I am. You're not gonna "almost" score as high as me on any aptitude test --- that is not acceptable for me. I am going to BURY you by a long-shot. I aim so high, that when I miss the mark I am still miles ahead of the next Joe Schmo. I want it said that J'son is a sharp guy --- not "sharp for a black guy." But like I said, the media will have to put that race-card spin on it.

You know what was kool about the old days? You could walk into a bar and some1 could say "get the fuck outta here you n1gg3r" -- or go to an interview and get "well, we don't hire n1gg3r$ at our firm no matter how smart you are boy." Why is that awesome??? B/c there was no guesswork - you KNEW who your enemies were and you didn't have to "guess". NOW, you sit at that same interview and get "well, the position is filled Mr. Johnson" or "we are looking for some1 w/ a different skillset" when what they REALLY mean is "well, we don't hire n1gg3r$ at our firm no matter how smart you are boy." I personally would rather know my enemy --- than having some1 I see as a friend go home to his wife or his boys and say "J'son is a n1gg3r and n1gg3r$ aren't good for nothing." AA fits in the category with a lot of other things w/ me -- "great idea/theme but either poorly executed or impossible to execute properly." Whoever coined the AA idea, I am with them - I can see how the IDEA came across in their mind. But in reality it fails.

[tony]

absolutely not...well qualified or best candidate? I am saying take the absolute best. My buddy for instance I had apply for a position that I know for a fact he was the best candidate (I do the same work and am the lead not the mgr) the guy is a technical genius but was passed up for someone qualified but not the best. I personally want to surround myself with the best of the best.

In addition what do you mean by overlooked in the process? Based on color of skin? I simply cannot believe that...look at our president elect, the majority HAS spoken. I am not saying there is not some bad apples out there, s*** even in law enforcement. Look at the recent shooting in Oakland, that cop is a POS. The rioting after the fact is stupid. Where is the end I dont know...

Best at what? Best GPA, best test scores? You can pick and choose what you want "the best" at but at the end of the day it comes down to what does this person bring to the table. You can have the highest qualified individual but that doesn't mean the person works well in a team environment. It doesn't mean that persons intelligence translates to results.

Time and time again the best results I've seen in any setting wasnt a group of individuals who were all top tier on paper, but they were individuals that worked well together and were passionate about what they do.

And by overlooked in the process I mean rather than going to say.. UGA or Auburn, what is wrong with recruiting at a smaller more diverse school if having a diverse workforce is important? Its not that you're picking anyone less than your qualifications because students at these schools are well qualified.. its just that they tend to be overlooked.

[ironchef]

Best candidate for the job period, doesn't matter if he or she is white, black, green, or purple. Diversity can be good because it will bring different view points into the mix, and different ideas that will help make for a better product or service. But, without the best candidates making that product or service, its not going to be as good as it can be.

[AirMax95]

Not sure if everyone knows the whole purpose behind the Affirmitive Action order, but IF by chance you do not I advise that you do some homework. Things are not as bad now as they were in the 60s, 70s, or even the 80s. Women, all women, are leaders in the corporate workforce. Ethinic presence in the corporate work place is still rising.

I am going to say my small piece without stepping on any toes, or affending anyone. Tim Wise said it best, "Indignation doesn't work for most whites". That simply means that the acts of the past (slavery, discrimination, lack of womens rights) were justified, but the turn of the tables SLIGHTLY is completly unjust. Now that there are white males being "passed" up for jobs its a horrible act. My question is though, how does one know that they are being passed up due to AA? Are people using the notion of AA being in place as a crutch when they can't land a job? Do these individuals who are being passed up look at themselves for an improvement? Sure, you can have tons of experience and be genius, but are you a job hopper? Are you a team player? Do you mesh well with people? Do your past employers give you a good wrap when you leave them? Tons more things come in to play when you are denied a job.

I know for a fact that I was hired because I OWNED every applicant that applied for the position I sit in at the moment. My boss and I were traveling when the discussion came up. He told me that I stood out from at least 100 people on paper, then sealed the deal on the interview. I strongly believe that the hatred of the past is slowly dwindling in the workplace. More and more managers are seeing the light, and workers of the new generations are realizing how ignorant discrimination and racism is. Baby J, I feel you on your post! Confidence, know-how, and drive will change the mind of 90% of people.

Affirmitive action, to me, was/is two-fold. It is a check system to ensure that women and minorities are not passed up for an open position based off gender and skin color. Plenty people will argue that the notion is not true, or do not apply in these times. Sorry to lay it to you, but it does. Second, it was hopefully an eye-opener to the individuals that felt discrimination was justified; to show them that anyone can posess the qualifications. From the 60s-80s blacks and women were PURPOSELY denied jobs. AA was a desperate push to further reduce discrimination.

AA should not have to be in place, but without its presence things could easily go back to how they were. There are still hiring managers, HR personel, and average employees that to do not feel that women/minorities belong. I do feel that the practice could punish those who had no hand in the hatred of the past. We can argue all day if there is a case of reverse racism/discrimination, and there is, but today people are paying for the treatment of people in the past.

Corporations should not be FORCED to diversify, but if they are to thrive in the future, it would be in there best interest. If they were to simply look at companies doing well, globally especially, they will be forced to diversify eventually. It allows them to take the company, and its offerings further.

I hope I made some sense here.

Cliffs:
1. We shouldn't have to force a company to treat people right
2. AA is a good program, but will never be able to be 100% correct.
3. AA is a form of reverse racism, but its hard to prove.
4. I love and appreciate my job.
5. Get your shit together and open your own doors when people close the door (getting a job) or change the locks on you (skipped for a promotion).

[Tracy]

w3rd

[redrumracer]

off topic, which initiative is this one? ive heard of several that are for both the Navy and CG.

[tony]

off topic, which initiative is this one? ive heard of several that are for both the Navy and CG.

Blue 21

[4dmin]

yes it is 110% racism. mechanisms like this just divide the population. i think we are heading down a very deep hole w/ race in this country and wouldn't be surprised to see mass rioting over such issues like this and immigration.

[Mike Lowrey]

I beleive that the person best qualified should get the job. As soons as you add race into the equation, it is racist.

[AirMax95]

yes it is 110% racism. mechanisms like this just divide the population. i think we are heading down a very deep hole w/ race in this country and wouldn't be surprised to see mass rioting over such issues like this and immigration.

I beleive that the person best qualified should get the job. As soons as you add race into the equation, it is racist.

Which brings us back to the reason why AA initiatives were put in place from the beginning. It will never end until raw hatred goes away.

...and Paul, we never fully climbed out of the racial hole; the shits more like a quicksand pit.

[BobbyFresco]

IMHO, I don't believe that AA is even relevant anymore.
To categorize every Black or minority or woman that is hired, promoted, given a scholarship, or what have you over a White man simply on the basis of diversity, would be asinine. Unless you are directly involved in the decision making and have that kind of insight, there's no way to prove that whatever decision was made came about because of AA.

The fact of the matter is women and minorities are now catching up due to more opportunities being present and I feel like some people get indignant because they feel like they automatically deserve a post and if the outcome is not as anticipated it then becomes an issue of not being hired or whatever the case may be, because of AA.

Whichever side of the fence you're on, it's a slippery slope.

However, I don't think this is an issue that will result in riots and all these extreme measures some of you speak of.

[BobbyFresco]

I also wanted to add that whoever is troubled by AA should not be angry with minorities and women because they were not responsible for implenting this practice. White guilt led to AA, along with MLK day and Black History Month. All implemented by what I would presume would be predominantly White lawmakers.

[AirMax95]

^^^Good post

[redrumracer]

Blue 21

thats what i fig you were talking about, our director of flight was in the navy and was talking to one of my classmates about that program. i looked into it several times. i really like the guaranteed flight spot for the program tho.

[BABY J]

Just be sure that you can pass a military flight physical - and yes it's different than a civillian physical. Also be prepared to pass water survival (sv80) (Tyndall AFB, FL or Fairchild AFB, WA) and SERE school (sv82) at Fairchild AFB. I can tell you everything you need to learn about passing both of those, to include the POW camp "simulation".

(welcome home after flying counter-drug missions in the Phillipines and S. America - we had on-station times of 17hours non-stop - bunch of aerial refuelings and a bunch of moutain dew - lol)


/off topic

[BABY J]

^^ And yes, I paid good money in the Phillipines for that fucked up haircut. Some things are just better in America.

[BTEC]

Best candidate for the job period, doesn't matter if he or she is white, black, green, or purple. Diversity can be good because it will bring different view points into the mix, and different ideas that will help make for a better product or service. But, without the best candidates making that product or service, its not going to be as good as it can be.

well said!!

[tony]

thats what i fig you were talking about, our director of flight was in the navy and was talking to one of my classmates about that program. i looked into it several times. i really like the guaranteed flight spot for the program tho.

I never considered the Coast Guard till I saw that initiative (plus the age thing) apparently Aviation slots are very competitive in the CG so to come in with a guaranteed spot is huge. Plus the mission of the CG is really starting to grow on me.

Just be sure that you can pass a military flight physical - and yes it's different than a civillian physical. Also be prepared to pass water survival (sv80) (Tyndall AFB, FL or Fairchild AFB, WA) and SERE school (sv82) at Fairchild AFB. I can tell you everything you need to learn about passing both of those, to include the POW camp "simulation".

(welcome home after flying counter-drug missions in the Phillipines and S. America - we had on-station times of 17hours non-stop - bunch of aerial refuelings and a bunch of moutain dew - lol)


/off topic

What airframe? I was applying for Loadmaster at my current unit but the recruiter f'd me and signed me up for Air Transportation. This fall I will apply for Nav within the unit so I'm going to try and schedule a Class III physical when I come back from training

[4dmin]

Which brings us back to the reason why AA initiatives were put in place from the beginning. It will never end until raw hatred goes away.

...and Paul, we never fully climbed out of the racial hole; the shits more like a quicksand pit.

no i understand that but i think we are certainly on the rise for racial tensions... presidency, bad economy, no jobs, etc... to me these are things to watch. it is pretty sad that in our 200+ years of history we still can't get over color of ones skin