made in america must make a comeback!

[silversol]

'Made in America' must make a comeback
There is value in working with your hands.
By Paul Sedan

from the November 28, 2008 edition


Charlotte, N.C. - One thing the financial crisis shows is that the United States is in trouble because Americans have stopped making stuff.

It used to be that we made a lot of stuff: televisions, clothes, washing machines, radios, typewriters, shoes, telephones, and furniture. And we also used to make the stuff out of which stuff was made: steel, aluminum, plastic, rubber, glass, and electrical components. Today that's largely made overseas. They send us their stuff and we send them our money.

It also used to be that Americans liked to make stuff. Think of all the things Thomas Edison invented. Or consider Henry Ford, who made the car affordable, perfected the assembly line, and paid workers a decent wage. Countless others, such as my grandfather, worked as toolmakers and machinists because they liked to work with their hands. Today we rely on people around the world to do that innovation for us.

To be sure, outsourcing has some benefits, but the danger in abrogating our desire to make things is that, in doing so, we forget what made America great. It wasn't manipulating money; it was hard work and persistence. It wasn't "flipping houses"; it was having a dream and being patient and self-sacrificing to achieve that dream. It wasn't speculative gambling; it was belief in a line of labor that rewarded honest risk. Forgetting that contributes to America's deterioration.

Nowadays, young people want to work in the financial industry (at least until recently). While money managers may be worthy occupations – we do need capital to meet payroll and buy the goods and machinery used to make stuff – focusing solely on such jobs removes us from the mainstream of making useful things, which, in turn, provide jobs and help to make everyday life more enjoyable and productive.

This is where we have to start questioning what's at stake. Are we truly satisfied with letting someone else make everything we need? If so, when the time comes for repair and maintenance, who will do the work?

more...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1128/p09s02-coop.html

[SLOWR/T]

So true. This is why I refuse to shop at Walmart. 95% of things there are made in China

[BanginJimmy]

made in america is going to become more rare with the rise in minimum wage. Why should you pay someone $7/hr + for a job that only requires a $2/hr unskilled worker.

[STRteg]

made in america is going to become more rare with the rise in minimum wage. Why should you pay someone $7/hr + for a job that only requires a $2/hr unskilled worker.

[Vteckidd]

Sorry, stuff NOT being made in AMerica, is AMERICAs problem, not anyone else.

with unions, workers rights, escalating costs, etc outsourcing HAS to be done.

We HAVE to have stuff made in CHina, we HAVE to have stuff made in mexico, canada, etc.

Our "entitlement" society thinks that they deserve $80,000 a year to be a janitor, or a screw turner at GM. Who do you think shoulders that financial burden? the company, which has to find ways to cut costs or raise prices, or both.

Look at anything that is american made, it almost always fails or just doesnt make any profit.

Until we learn as a society that a $20,000 a year job is ONLY WORTH $20,000 a year, not $60,000, not 100,000, not $80,000, kiss Made in America good bye.

Unless you want to start paying 200% increase in costs of items.......

[Vteckidd]

It also used to be that Americans liked to make stuff. Think of all the things Thomas Edison invented. Or consider Henry Ford, who made the car affordable, perfected the assembly line, and paid workers a decent wage. Countless others, such as my grandfather, worked as toolmakers and machinists because they liked to work with their hands. Today we rely on people around the world to do that innovation for us.

Difference is, back then people knew the meaning of HONEST WAGE. and they lived within their means.

Today most people make $50,000 a year and live like they make $200,000. When people bought houses like our parents and grandparents, it was to stay in them for 20 years.

WHen people lost their jobs, they had savings, today, people have CREDIT, and thats it. or they used to.

The housing collapse, the bailout, the Big 3, all this is so much more than economic problems. its society as a whole, thinking they are ENTITLED to things they havent worked for.

Everyone was drunk on greed. The banks were lending to people that werent qualified, the people borrowing could only see that new ESCALADE they were going to be driving or that house that was going to make them $200,000.

No one thought "what about the negative side effects"

[Professor Swagger]

Difference is, back then people knew the meaning of HONEST WAGE. and they lived within their means.

Today most people make $50,000 a year and live like they make $200,000. When people bought houses like our parents and grandparents, it was to stay in them for 20 years.

WHen people lost their jobs, they had savings, today, people have CREDIT, and thats it. or they used to.

The housing collapse, the bailout, the Big 3, all this is so much more than economic problems. its society as a whole, thinking they are ENTITLED to things they havent worked for.

Everyone was drunk on greed. The banks were lending to people that werent qualified, the people borrowing could only see that new ESCALADE they were going to be driving or that house that was going to make them $200,000.

No one thought "what about the negative side effects"

QFT

[Apollo]

Americans like to watch TV, play on Internet , play video games and drink beer,and shop. We have become a lazy society. Population is the problem not enough jobs for everyone so they have to cut wages to create more jobs so everyone can work. Back in the day like the wild west for example people(Towns) helped each other out and now its all about individuals, the family idea is about to be extincted because they way the world has changed. Im sure there is more to this problem but this is just some...

[BanginJimmy]

Americans like to watch TV, play on Internet , play video games and drink beer,and shop. We have become a lazy society.

very true, and this also touches on what Mr Kidd said. We are quickly becomes an entitlement society. Too many people think they are owed something just because they were too lazy to get it for themselves.

Population is the problem not enough jobs for everyone so they have to cut wages to create more jobs so everyone can work.

Population is a HUGE problem worldwide. There needs to be something done to combat the huge rise in population that we are seeing now. It is getting to the point that the world isnt producing enough food to feed ourselves and this is only going to get worse in the future. Even here in the US we are encroaching into our farmlands to build neighborhoods and subdivisions. The result, every year we have that much less land to grow food on. That means that farmers have to make a choice, reduce the acreage they grow on every year, or run the risk of burning out the soil.

I have seen some graphs that say that the Chinese will basicly brred themselves into a VERY drastic population downturn around 2050 though. Because parents want sons and not daughters, there is actually becoming a shortage of women in the population. Its said that starting in about 2050 that shortage will be so bad that there wont be enough working age adults to sustain their economy, let alone the largest standing army in the world.

Back in the day like the wild west for example people(Towns) helped each other out and now its all about individuals, the family idea is about to be extincted because they way the world has changed. Im sure there is more to this problem but this is just some...

this is a new day though and it started in the early 70's, women were no longer expected to stay home and raise the kids, they now not only getting jobs for extra income, but in real careers that rival or even surpass their husbands. This means that kids are left alone MUCH more often and at a younger age. So instead of geting out of the house to get away from parents, as I did when I was a kid, they stay home and watch TV and/or play Street Fighter 86 Zulu or whatever it is.

Side note: I will still dominate ANYONE is street Fighter 2 Alpha


It is also important to note that the US is quickly growing in average age. Between 1990 and 2000 the average age of Americans grew by about 2.5 years.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/.../cb01cn67.html

If this trend continues, the US may also reach a peak population sometime around 2050, but our decline will come at a MUCH lower rate than the Chinese. Something else I found intersting. The largest, by percentage, family makeup in the US is a married couple with no chuildren. I cant find the article I read that in so you will just have to take my word for it.

[silversol]

Sorry, stuff NOT being made in AMerica, is AMERICAs problem, not anyone else.

with unions, workers rights, escalating costs, etc outsourcing HAS to be done.

We HAVE to have stuff made in CHina, we HAVE to have stuff made in mexico, canada, etc.

Our "entitlement" society thinks that they deserve $80,000 a year to be a janitor, or a screw turner at GM. Who do you think shoulders that financial burden? the company, which has to find ways to cut costs or raise prices, or both.

Look at anything that is american made, it almost always fails or just doesnt make any profit.

Until we learn as a society that a $20,000 a year job is ONLY WORTH $20,000 a year, not $60,000, not 100,000, not $80,000, kiss Made in America good bye.

Unless you want to start paying 200% increase in costs of items.......

but yet its ok of them to import this crap tax free and expect us to still buy it? and with rules and regulations unions,the fda all that shit is there for a reason. a little lead based paint on childrens toys never hurt anything right?In 2007 thousands of family pets worldwide died due to melamine tainted wheat and rice protein imported from China! why the fuck do we need import wheat and rice based dog food from china! melamine tainted dog food this shit what also found in infant baby forumula! for those who dont know what meamine is.

Melamine is an organic base chemical most commonly found in the form of white crystals rich in nitrogen. It is commonly used to make plastics, counter tops, glue and a host of other industrial processes. It is not approved by any national or international governing body for use in food, food products or food processing.
So how could this highly toxic chemical end up in our food supply? that is what those rules and ruglations and shit are for!

[EmminoDaGreat]

Mike. From Vteckidd to Politickidd

[Vteckidd]

LOL ive been thinking about running for office............

[silversol]

this is such bullshit!! you guys are saying americans dont deserve to make a decent living! are you fucking kidding me! who cares if they sweep floors or turn screws at gm they still deserve to make a decent wage! but yet you bitch about a auto worker working in a hot factory shift after shift makeing 30$ a hour! but yet you say absolutly nothing about the ceo's getting 20 million dollar boneus!

that is perfectly fine he did a good job even with record losses! pull your head out of your asses! no one on the planet is worth 20 mil a year! but you sure will bitch about a guy making 30$ a year turning screws in a factory! even tho the average toyota worker in japan makes a average 35$ hour and german auto workers get close to 40$ hour! but yet they keep importing this crap tax free! And more americans lose jobs!

Americans like to watch TV, play on Internet , play video games and drink beer,and shop. We have become a lazy society! what a load of shit with record number of people unemployed! hell they can sit at home go broke if they cant make a decent wage! whats the point of going to work at a slave wage? if walmart raised the price of every thing in there stores buy 1 cent they could more that afford to pay employees well over 10$ a hour but i am sure you guys will say they are not worth that! but what are they to do? if they cant make a liveing? i am sure there a lot of rice rich republicans to rob!

and while you young republicans that have your head up your asses! That think you have a lot in common with those ceo's making milions and billions! you dont! you have more in common with the crazed lunatic living under a bridge that you ever will with those guys! and that is how those guys see you as!

[2.25teg]

this is such bullshit!! you guys are saying americans dont deserve to make a decent living! are you fucking kidding me! who cares if they sweep floors or turn screws at gm they still deserve to make a decent wage! but yet you bitch about a auto worker working in a hot factory shift after shift makeing 30$ a hour! but yet you say absolutly nothing about the ceo's getting 20 million dollar boneus!

that is perfectly fine he did a good job even with record losses! pull your head out of your asses! no one on the planet is worth 20 mil a year! but you sure will bitch about a guy making 30$ a year turning screws in a factory! even tho the average toyota worker in japan makes a average 35$ hour and german auto workers get close to 40$ hour! but yet they keep importing this crap tax free! And more americans lose jobs!

Americans like to watch TV, play on Internet , play video games and drink beer,and shop. We have become a lazy society! what a load of shit with record number of people unemployed! hell they can sit at home go broke if they cant make a decent wage! whats the point of going to work at a slave wage? if walmart raised the price of every thing in there stores buy 1 cent they could more that afford to pay employees well over 10$ a hour but i am sure you guys will say they are not worth that! but what are they to do? if they cant make a liveing? i am sure there a lot of rice rich republicans to rob!

and while you young republicans that have your head up your asses! That think you have a lot in common with those ceo's making milions and billions! you dont! you have more in common with the crazed lunatic living under a bridge that you ever will with those guys! and that is how those guys see you as!

bump for a very good point

[Vteckidd]

this is such bullshit!! you guys are saying americans dont deserve to make a decent living! are you fucking kidding me! who cares if they sweep floors or turn screws at gm they still deserve to make a decent wage! but yet you bitch about a auto worker working in a hot factory shift after shift makeing 30$ a hour! but yet you say absolutly nothing about the ceo's getting 20 million dollar boneus!

No you are only seeing YOUR side of the argument. Let me explain:

The CEOs making 30MIllion while their company tanks, IS A PROBLEM. I never said it wasnt, go read my post in the BAILOUT thread, im against it, we are in DANGEROUS territory. Think about it......
1) GOVT Bails out the Auto INdustry, that means we are giving money to poeple that run a shitty business and made BAD BUSINESS DEALS with the UNIONS. The handwriting has been on the wall for A LONG TIME.

2) If we bail them out, the GOVT wants a "car czar" to oversee the companies that get the money from the GOVT. Thats about as close to socialism as it gets, so what happens when we have the GOVT telling the "companies" what to do and how to invest their money and run their business? DANGEROUS, absolutely dangerous considering the govt cant run ANY thing right now correctly.

3) Do you really think they can take 25 billion and turn their companies around in 6 months or less (remember the bail out money is only to get them to March). What if the recession DEEPENS? what then, bail them out again? INflation? wheres the money coming from? Our money printers are running out of ink.......

4) How can we sit here and justify giving them money, when their execs are making MILLIONS while the company is going down in flames?

I assure you the answer is not paying the janitor $80,000 a year, and paying the CEO $28,000,000. No the answer is, if we want a LONG TERM FIX we let them go into bankruptcy an restructure. Not give them a handout that almost certainly is not going to work.

Furthermore, alot of the GM workers make WELL over $30 an hour, im sorry but $30/hour to do MENIAL jobs is not cost effective. Thats $60,000 a year roughly, and these are LOW END FACTORY JOBS. No one DESERVES anything an that is my point. But the real problem is with the unions.

Did you know that they employ more people than is needed. Example, a certain job calls for 100 workers at GM Plant. They hire 125. The extra 25 people are their IN CASE one of the 100 slots doesnt show up. But if all 100 peple are there, the extra 25 get paid FULL SALARY even though they do NOTHING. ALot of them admit to playing cards or just hanging out doing absolutely NOTHING. How is that cost effective?

$2000 of every car sold goes to their extremely expensive PENSION Plan. How is that a good business model?

IIRC GMs healthcare is also one of their most expensive plans out there for them in terms of COST.

So, you got 28MILLION a year CEO, employees making way over what they SHOULD be making, pension plans and healthcare plans put in place by the unions that are much to expensive, how do YOU PROPOSE THEY MAKE MONEY? If you think the answer is MAKE MORE CARS HERE then you have alot of business classes to take.

FYI Jap cars are made in the USA an they make it work, how is that?

that is perfectly fine he did a good job even with record losses! pull your head out of your asses! no one on the planet is worth 20 mil a year! but you sure will bitch about a guy making 30$ a year turning screws in a factory! even tho the average toyota worker in japan makes a average 35$ hour and german auto workers get close to 40$ hour! but yet they keep importing this crap tax free! And more americans lose jobs!

The difference is the Germans and the Japs dont have UNIONS,not like ours at least, and they are making a PROFIT. Toyota overtook GM in marketshare a few years ago. Hell if the company is making money pay whatever you want.

Microsoft employed more millionaire secrataries than anyone in the world (because they took stock options), but they were MAKING MONEY, so who cares.

WHen you have an industry that has time and time again FAILED, you have to fix it.

As far as importing tax free that isnt true. You have no idea how the industry works. Almost ALL the foreign cars are built HERE, IN THE USA, EMPLOYING AMERICAN WORKERS!@ From BMW in South Carolina, to Honda in GA an Ohio, to Toyota, etc. Alot of the AMERICAN Cars are outsourced, again, because of the incredible costs associated with their UNION STRUCTURE

Americans like to watch TV, play on Internet , play video games and drink beer,and shop. We have become a lazy society! what a load of shit with record number of people unemployed! hell they can sit at home go broke if they cant make a decent wage! whats the point of going to work at a slave wage? if walmart raised the price of every thing in there stores buy 1 cent they could more that afford to pay employees well over 10$ a hour but i am sure you guys will say they are not worth that! but what are they to do? if they cant make a liveing? i am sure there a lot of rice rich republicans to rob!

Record number of unemployed? its at 6.7%, Carter was well over 15%.

Minimum wage is about to be raised to $7 an hour in 2009, if you want to make a DECENT WAGE, get an education. If you want to make a decent wage, learn a skill. But, also realize that not every job pays $100,000 a year. You are WORTH what you are WORTH, and a janitor is not worth $80,000 a year sorry. He doesnt get to drive a Ferrari, he doesnt get to own a $700,000 home.

WHen did this country become about making the RICH POORER instead of the POOR RICHER? I mean come on!

WalMart pays actually pretty well for what they employ which is STOCKERS and CASHIERS. But im sure you think they should make $60,000 a year for ringing up your $2 a gallong milk

The comment about raising everything a penny is so ludicrous im not going to go into it. Why should a company shoulder the burden to pay their employees more than what they are WORTH? Most of them make a decent living. But come on you really think there is a CAREER in working at Wal Mart as a Cashier? If that is your career choice then you shot awfully low in terms of your life goals.

and while you young republicans that have your head up your asses! That think you have a lot in common with those ceo's making milions and billions! you dont! you have more in common with the crazed lunatic living under a bridge that you ever will with those guys! and that is how those guys see you as!

We dont have anything in common with the big shot CEO, none of us do. But what SOME people understand is that a person should be paid what they are WORTH. There are things that determine that, like EDUCATION, TEST SCORES, PERSEVERANCE, JOB PERFORMANCE, ETC

NOT, hey that guy makes more, I DESERVE MORE!

MADE IN AMERICA will only drive YOUR cost of goods UP, and we will then LOSE EVEN MORE JOBS , then i suppose you will make a thread how the EVIL CORPORATIONS OF THE WORLD HAVE DONE YOU WRONG.

The answer IMO is the Fair TAx, and i hope we move in that direction.

[SPOOLIN]

Unions have screwed American Manufacturers into making everything overseas or mexico. Its our own (american workers) damn fault for all of it.

[Vteckidd]

Unions have screwed American Manufacturers into making everything overseas or mexico. Its our own (american workers) damn fault for all of it.

Sad but absolutely true.

[Vteckidd]

Lets also play devils advocate, answer these TRUTHFULLY

Have you ever:
Bought anything from Autozone?

Bought anything from Pep Boys?

Bought anything from Advance Auto Parts?

Bought anything from DC SPorts ?

Bought Anything from AEM?

Bought Anything from TEIN ?

Bought anything from Greddy?

Bought anything from Comptech?

BOught anything from Summit Racing?

Bought anything from Samsung/Panasonic/Toshiba/Sony?

Do you own a PLaystation or Xbox?

Have you ever bought Games for Playstation or Xbox?

Have you ever bought a Cell phone?

Have you ever bought a cell phone Charger/battery/Carrying Case?

Have you ever bought a CD?

Have you ever bought a Camera/Camcorder?

Have you ever bought a Domestic made car?(Ford Dodge GM Chrysler Jeep)

HGave you ever bought a FOREIGN Car? (german or japan)


And you people that think we are massively outsourcing are running with HYPE an nothing more.

Heres a nice term to learn, GDP

There are no official figures on the total number of jobs that have gone overseas, but in May 2004 the Labor Department made its first-ever report on the portion of "mass layoffs" attributable to "overseas relocation." Their survey showed that only 2.5 percent of major layoffs in the first three months of 2004 were a result of outsourcing abroad.

That survey only covers companies that have laid off 50 or more workers at one time for 30 days or longer, and so may not be representative of all companies and all job loss. But it gives scant support for Kerry's theme.

Trying to assess whether offshoring might actually be a larger problem than the Labor Department figures indicate, veteran Democratic economist Charles Schultze tried another approach. He reasoned that if America's production needs were increasingly met by foreign outsourcing (and cheap imports) this would be shown as a rise in the value of U.S. imports relative to the overall economy, as measured by Gross Domestic Product, or GDP. But what he found was that the ratio wasn't rising at all - it had leveled off since 2000. He concluded that "there is nothing in the data to suggest that large increases in. . . offshoring could have played a major role in explaining America's job performance in recent years. "

Schultze: It is clear that offshoring has had a relatively modest impact on unemployment when compared to all the other economic factors that create and destroy jobs week by week in the U.S. economy.

He also said that offshoring only holds down US job growth in the short run. Over time, he said it is beneficial:

Schultze: In the short run, an increase in offshoring reduces U.S. job growth. But in the long run it improves the standard of living, increases real wages, and increases the country's economic growth.

Schultze is now Senior Fellow Emeritus at the Brookings Institution, with impeccable Democratic credentials. He was President Lyndon Johnson's budget director in the 1960's, and was chairman of President Carter's Council of Economic Advisers back in the late 1970's.

Even backers of Kerry's proposed solution concede that the problem is relatively minor. One of those backers is Christian Weller, senior economist at the Democratic-leaning Center for American Progress. Weller acknowledges that the problem of outsourcing is not large when compared to overall levels of unemployment. He said in an article on the subject:

Weller: While offshoring has taken the spotlight in the national debate, estimates of the jobs lost due to this practice amount to between 300,000 and 995,000 over the last three years. Only a fraction of the jobs America has lost, but hardly insignificant.
Yet, even though offshoring accounts for a relatively small portion of U.S. unemployment, it deserves our immediate attention. For one, the pain and suffering of those who lost their jobs are real. Moreover, for those who still have jobs, offshoring has contributed to the stagnant wages and declining benefits.

Another assessment comes from Ben Bernanke, Chairman of the economics department at Princeton University and also a governor of the Federal Reserve. In a speech at the end of March he estimated that the total number of jobs lost to "offshoring" at roughly one percent of all jobs lost.

Bernanke estimated that over the past decade the US economy lost an overall total of about 15 million jobs each year for all reasons, while creating an average of about 17 million new jobs each year - a huge rate of "churn" as countless businesses fail or downsize while others grow or are created. Of that 15 million annual gross job loss, he said the portion due to outsourcing is quite small. Bernanke cited a 2003 study by the Wall Street firm of Goldman, Sachs & Co. that estimated outsourcing abroad had averaged between 100,000 and 167,000 jobs per year since 2000. And he said offshoring would remain a minor factor even if the figure grew larger:

Bernanke: Two hundred thousand jobs per year amount to a bit more than 1 percent of the 15 million gross jobs lost each year. . . for all reasons. Quantitatively, outsourcing abroad simply cannot account for much of the recent weakness in the U.S. labor market and does not appear likely to be an important restraint to further recovery in employment.

The Upside to Outsourcing

Recent studies show that when companies move some jobs abroad the savings stimulate job creation at home. Matthew Slaughter, a Dartmouth economist, looked at foreign and domestic job growth in multinational corporations from 1991 to 2001. He found foreign affiliates of American companies added 2.9 million workers to their payrolls overseas, but at the same time those companies added 5.5 million US employees to their payrolls.

And a study released by the private economic consulting firm Global Insight in March looked at outsourcing in the information technology (IT) sector. It found that outsourcing generated a net gain of 90,000 jobs during 2003, in both IT and non-IT sectors. Furthermore, the study found that the cost savings of IT outsourcing lowered inflation throughout the US economy, increased consumer spending, and "contributed significantly" to the overall growth of US GDP. It said that by 2008, "real GDP is expected to be $124 billion higher than it would be in an environment in which offshore IT. . .outsourcing does not occur. "

Global Insight's research was supervised by Lawrence Klein, a Nobel Laureate and Professor Emeritus at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business. He told FactCheck.org:

Klein: In the initial phases of IT offshoring there is a loss of jobs, but the overall impact on the economy will be favorable. Because companies are paying lower costs, they have more money for investment which leads to an increased demand for labor. This does not indicate a 1-to-1 ratio of jobs gained to those lost, however the overall economy will benefit from offshoring.

Bernanke, the Princeton economics chairman, also said in his speech that the US gains more from "insourcing" of jobs than it loses from outsourcing. He said that in 2002, the most recent year on record, the US exported $29 billion in "business services" while importing less than $11 billion. And he said the jobs that are being gained are generally higher-paying jobs than those that are being lost.

Bernanke: An important reason for the U.S. trade surplus in business services is that this country provides many high-value services to users abroad, including financial, legal, engineering, architectural, and software development services , while many of the services imported by U.S. companies are less sophisticated and hence of lower cost.

Is It Bush's Fault?

Kerry is correct when he says the US tax code creates an incentive to move jobs overseas. But that's not Bush's fault, as Kerry and his supporters often say.

Media Fund Ad:
"It's about Jobs"

Announcer: During the past three years, it's true George W. Bush has created more jobs. Unfortunately, they were created in places like China.

Announcer: Bush's policies have encouraged the loss of nearly 3 million jobs.

Announcer: He supported tax breaks for corporations that ship jobs overseas.

Announcer: George W. Bush is taking America in the wrong direction. It's time to make America work for every American.

For example, see this Media Fund ad claiming "Bush's policies encouraged the loss of nearly 3 million jobs."

In fact, tax experts say the incentive has been there for decades - since there has been a corporate income tax. It's not Bush's doing.

The incentive exists because the US taxes corporations at rates higher than most other countries. According to the Institute for International Economics, the effective rate for US corporations was just over 30% in 2002, while mainland China's effective corporate rate was only 11.3%, Britain's 18.2%, Mexico's 15.1% and Indonesia's a miniscule 0.2%.

Furthermore, the US also attempts to tax money that US-based companies earn in other countries, but only after those profits are brought back to the US. That means profits that remain overseas, perhaps invested in new factories in low-tax countries, never get taxed at the higher US rates. And that's been true through both Democratic and Republican administrations.

Even the Institute for International Economics, which disagrees with Kerry's tax proposal, acknowledges he is correct that the current system is unfair. A recent report states:

IIE: Senator Kerry's diagnosis - that the US corporate tax system disadvantages firms that produce in the United States - is basically correct. Moreover, US corporate tax rates are sufficiently high that some multinational corporations may be tempted to deploy strategies that book profits in low-tax jurisdictions.

To fix the tax problem, Kerry has come up with a proposal to tax businesses on their foreign income right away. Corporations would still get a credit for any taxes paid to other countries, as they do now, but would no longer be able to defer the US taxes indefinitely.

At the same time, Kerry would cut the corporate tax rate by 1.75 percentage points, to a top corporate rate of 33.25 percent. He also would offer a one-year "tax holiday" to businesses that repatriate earnings that have been parked overseas for years, avoiding all US taxes. And he would offer a tax credit to companies when their US hiring exceeds previous levels.

It's complicated and controversial. Kerry's plan wouldn't impose US taxes on income earned by producing and selling goods in another country. Len Burman, a former Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary for Tax Analysis, told the Washington Post that this will almost certainly be "extremely complicated" to enforce. It could also encourage gamesmanship, should businesses try to avoid US taxes by selling their goods to foreign wholesalers, who can then export back to the U.S. or other countries, thereby avoiding US taxes on the profits from those sales.
The Bush administration doesn't support Kerry's plan. To that extent there is a genuine issue here. Bush supports a measure that would give US-based multinationals a larger tax credit on their overseas income. Democrats argue that idea would only increase the incentive to move jobs overseas; the Bush administration argues that it would help US firms compete globally with foreign firms that avoid US taxes altogether.

Would Kerry's Plan Fix Offshoring?

Whether Kerry's plan would have much impact on the movement of jobs abroad is debatable, to say the least. It is impossible to measure exactly how much the tax code exacerbates global outsourcing. Companies argue the main reasons they locate plants in other countries are lower wages and proximity to foreign markets, not taxes.

Even supporters of the Kerry plan concede that tax breaks aren't the main reason for offshoring. Christian Weller told the Cleveland Plain Dealer :

Weller: There are so many things that go into companies' decisions to move jobs overseas . . . I think taxes are a very small part."

Others agree. David Wyss, chief economist for Standard & Poor's, was quoted by The Associated Press :

Wyss: The tax deferral is a very minor reason for why companies move jobs overseas.

Critics of Kerry's plan see some big drawbacks. The IIE analysis calls it "misguided" and says it could be a boon to foreign-based multinational corporations as they compete globally with US-based companies. Japan-based Toshiba could produce products in India or China and ship them to the US or other countries without having to pay the higher US taxes that the Kerry plan would impose on IBM or Texas Instruments, for example.

Kerry's proposal may be worth considering anyway -- that's a matter of opinion. A supporter of the proposal, Bob McIntyre of Citizens for Tax Justice, told the Washington Post that, as a company, "you may go to India or China or Ireland for the wage differentials -- there's nothing we can do about that. But we don't have to pay you to go there."

Still, there's little reason to believe that Kerry's plan would end offshoring, or have more than a minor impact on net job growth in the US.

[Daveparts]

Dear Mr. Kidd,

Where to start? I hope you know more about racing than you do economics, you mention, "Look at anything that is American made, it almost always fails or just doesn’t make any profit." Where is the header that you advertise made? Before you answer that remember that you where made here in America too?

You talk of an entitlement society but point blank I think that you are just throwing words around that you really don’t know the meaning of. The Ford Plant in Hapeville paid 10% of the taxes for the city of Hapeville those fat lazy union workers are gone so who pays those taxes now? You do. The paychecks earned by autoworkers fueled the economy, they had discretionary income to spend on frivolous items like headers. Wal-Mart employees don’t have discretionary income, they don’t buy headers. In fact they don’t buy much of anything they are non- participatory in this society so they will never by a header and they will never buy from anyone who will take the profit earned from selling to them to buy a header.

While its fun to grab your dick in one hand and your wallet in the other you are in a shrinking pool. The number of your potential customers shrinks every day until you become irrelevant. You favor teenage girls working 12 hours a day on wooden benches and living 20 to a room so you can buy a cheap cell phone or Barbie doll or what have you. But remember this every American dollar earned by American workers goes through the domestic economy seven times. Every dollar shipped over seas is gone forever.

So let me ask you a final question. Why do you hate the country of your birth? Is it because you think you are better than some body or they are all worth less than you are? If you need a cop or the fire department you know they will send a lazy uneducated American to rescue you. You’ll want them to save you from a wrecked car or a burning building but you don’t think they are worthy of a decent income.

I’m going to use a name here that I’m sure you’ve never heard of because it is in books not Hot Rod magazines or Archie Comics. Eugene C. Debs and this is what he said 70 years ago in answer to those who think like you.

"Now my friends, I am opposed to the system of society in which we live today, not because I lack the natural equipment to do for myself but because I am not satisfied to make myself comfortable knowing that there are thousands of my fellow men who suffer for the barest necessities of life. We were taught under the old ethic that man's business on this earth was to look out for himself. That was the ethic of the jungle; the ethic of the wild beast. Take care of yourself, no matter what may become of your fellow man. Thousands"

[Vteckidd]

Dear Mr. Kidd,

Where to start? I hope you know more about racing than you do economics, you mention, "Look at anything that is American made, it almost always fails or just doesn’t make any profit." Where is the header that you advertise made? Before you answer that remember that you where made here in America too?

My parts manufacturing is overseas. The reason it is overseas is because it COSTS too much to make it HERE. Materials, taxes, employees, welders, shop space, etc is just too expensive.

So either i make it here and my headers cost $1000 to the point no one can afford them and i go out of business which means im not paying taxes as i have no job, selling a good or service, growing my business etc or

I make them overseas and sell them for $400-500 and people can afford them.

The market is the market, there is demand for it, and if i dont do it someone else will.

Dont forget my business is in AMERICA and i pay taxes HERE, and i will eventually employ american workers here in time once i get big enough. Just because i have a product made overseas doesnt make me unAmerican, it makes me a good BUSINESSMAN.

Simple Business model really, Sales price - Cost=Profit. The lower my COST the more money I MAKE, the more money my business makes, the more money i have to SPEND on the US economy etc etc etc

OR

I could employ UNION people here and make no money

you choose

You talk of an entitlement society but point blank I think that you are just throwing words around that you really don’t know the meaning of. The Ford Plant in Hapeville paid 10% of the taxes for the city of Hapeville those fat lazy union workers are gone so who pays those taxes now? You do. The paychecks earned by autoworkers fueled the economy, they had discretionary income to spend on frivolous items like headers. Wal-Mart employees don’t have discretionary income, they don’t buy headers. In fact they don’t buy much of anything they are non- participatory in this society so they will never by a header and they will never buy from anyone who will take the profit earned from selling to them to buy a header.

Hey i have no problem with Fat Lazy Union workers, if the BUSINESS IS MAKING MONEY, but its not, its FAILED. ITS FAILED FOR 30 YEARS. So what do you think should happen? we should keep the plant open because its paid its FAIR share of taxes even though it was costing a company MONEY because they couldnt turn a profit?

I mean seriously have you ever run a business? or are these just all BOO HOO the poor american worker rants?

I dont sell headers to people that cant afford them. If you work for Wal-Mart making $7 an hour, i dont expect you to buy a $1000 header or a $500 header. you prob cant afford it. Just like Ferrari doest sell cars to guys like me, cause i cant afford it. Just Like Mortgage companies dont sell $500,000 houses to people that cant afford it, OH WAIT, forget that last part

But look the world needs $7 an hour employees, they need ditch diggers, they need people who for whatever reason, will never get ahead. Im sorry if that is cruel, but thats the truth.

What would we do without garbage men, janitors, etc. we wouldnt have DIRTY JOBS on Discovery thats for sure lol, but what im saying is not EVERYONE can make $100,000 a year, its stupid to think they can, and its stupid to think that MADE IN AMERICA is going to fix ANYTHING , it will only make it WORSE.

We do live in an entitlement society, people think they are OWED something. I DESERVE a house /car/clothes/ loan i cant POSSIBLY afford. I could go buy a $30,000 car right now with $10,000 down and get approved, but you know what, i shouldnt, i cant really AFFORD it. Sure i could eat ramen, and cut back on entertainment, etc, but its a bad investment for me. Id rather drive a $5000 car i paid cash for an invest in other things.

While its fun to grab your dick in one hand and your wallet in the other you are in a shrinking pool. The number of your potential customers shrinks every day until you become irrelevant. You favor teenage girls working 12 hours a day on wooden benches and living 20 to a room so you can buy a cheap cell phone or Barbie doll or what have you. But remember this every American dollar earned by American workers goes through the domestic economy seven times. Every dollar shipped over seas is gone forever.

Your rhetoric is awesome, typical i suppose. My sales have actually only increased this entire year despite the GLOBAL ECONOMIC downturn.

YOu can use the excuse that China is a major problem but sorry, its not as you think. None of my products are made by 12 year old girls, and none of them are slave laborers lol.

I really wish i could discuss in detail, but that is proprietary information pertaining to my business so all i can tell you is that the manufacturing happens over there for a reason, its too expensive to do it here.

Fix that an i will be happy to make it here

So let me ask you a final question. Why do you hate the country of your birth? Is it because you think you are better than some body or they are all worth less than you are? If you need a cop or the fire department you know they will send a lazy uneducated American to rescue you. You’ll want them to save you from a wrecked car or a burning building but you don’t think they are worthy of a decent income.

LOL

I dont hate my country, im very patriotic.

I dont think im better than anyone else.

I never said EVERYONE was lazy an uneducated. But the SOCIETY HAS TO BE BUILT AROUND THE BEST GET AHEAD.

WE DONT REWARD MEDIOCRACY

Think about that for a moment.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Teachers, Firemen, Policemen, Doctors, Nurses, etc etc etc, but that doesnt mean we should give them all $500,000 a year in pay.

Firemen and POlice are actually paid pretty well, but Detectives are paid more, and require a college Degree, hmmm wonder why.

I am NOT college educated, i went for 3 years an dropped out. I do not fancy myself smarter or better than anyone else within reason.

Define "DECENT INCOME"

Last i checked they made over $40,000 a year STARTING OUT, full benefits, pension, 401K, whats wrong with that?

If you are a COP, you are doing a great service, but that doesnt ENTITLE YOU TO SOMETHING SOMEONE ELSE HAS. You chose that path, and i dont know about you but if a COP makes a TOP salary of $90,000 a year (meaning he caps out at that much) then i would expect to live the life of a $90,000 a year person.

My father joined the military at age 26, he knew that he was going to get a guaranteed salary, but there is no way he was going to make $100,000 a year until AFTER he retired at age 50.

So growing up we didnt live ballin out of control, we were actually pretty poor. Now he makes over $300,000 a year, but hes Evil, shame on him for making so much money. Evil person! How dare he make more than a policeman!

I dont expect you to understand, based on your post it was full of emotion and rambling. So i appreciate your opinion, but i think you are wrong.

[Vteckidd]

Now i will say that im not AGAINST MADE IN AMERICA stuff. Im merely stating that it CANNOT make a comeback in this country the way things are RIGHT NOW.

We would need a HUGE Revolution that would cripple the Unions, lower manufacturing costs, re-evaluate pay for jobs, abolish the income tax and move to a fair tax, and most importantly stop bailing out FAILING companies.

Let the Free Market run its course.

[EJ25RUN]

I could careless.

As a consumer, i have the right to choose.

[SampaGuy]

So I clicked on the link to find out who the fuck could write an article that retarded. The website is "The Christian Science Monitor" (wtf?) and then I scroll to the bottom, and I was not surprised:

Paul Sedan is an artist in North Carolina. His day job is in carpentry.

You know, if Joe from bumblefuk, NC had the answer to the financial crisis, I dont think it would be happening in the first place.


Do you really want America's economy to be based on low-skill labor and industry? Like Mr.Kidd said, outsourcing is not un-American. If somebody is willing to get paid less for the same shitty job let them take it.

Look at Germany for example. They have to import most natural resources, because they barely have any. Labor is extremely expensive. Yet they are the 5th largest economy in the world, with a country about as big as Georgia. Why? Because they have know-how. They know how to make a Porsche, BMW, Mercedes. Also a leader in banking.


I shouldn't have to say that the world gets smaller everyday. Globalization is the future. Adapt or get left behind!! (not saying that the US is not, this is meant for stupid people who still think protectionism is the way to go, like the author of the article).

[Daveparts]

Dear Mr. Kidd,

You love your country all right, like an Alabama country boy loves his sister.
You are obviously very young because you have little vision you think, this week, this month, this year.

Like a child at Christmas your concern is only for what’s under the tree for you. You fail to understand that prosperity would help your business and conversely economic hard times will hurt your business. Unlike you I have worked in manufacturing, I have worked with both foreign and domestic companies. You are an importer not a manufacturer and you are small time, I can tell that because if you had a product of any true merit the Asian supplier would steal your idea and you would wake up one day to find that you were competing against yourself in the market place.

Of course they would have a huge cost advantage because they cut you out of the business model. Have you ever tried to win a patent fight in an Asian court? Ain’t gonna happen!

You quote pay statistics that you know nothing about, my wife is a Paramedic $30K
with bullshit insurance, cops $28K and guess who pays to have their uniforms pressed.
Now a Union Paramedic makes $50 K and maybe does a little racing on the weekend.
No one is saying everyone deserves $500K that is your ranting likewise earning money isn’t bad its good the more money we have in this country the better. The Asian economies understand this, that is why they place restrictions on importing goods into their countries.

Japan for instance is famous for telling manufacturers wishing to import into Japan, No!
There is no market for that here. The import duty to ship a car into Korea is 25% for the Koreans to ship one here is 1%. You can import all the cars into Japan you like but the Japanese won’t buy them because it is considered bad taste for a Japanese to drive a foreign car it is looked down up and as I’m sure you are aware in Japan appearance is everything.

The Asians have built car factories here, because now it is the Americans who work for peanuts and ask no questions. Toyota gave their employees a $20,000 bonus this year, only their Japanese employees. The American employees were told to go back to your shack Negro’s we’ll call you when we need you. The state of Georgia gave Kia motors $100,000,000 in tax abatement do you know who is going to make up the difference to the state? You are, and if Kia decides to close a factory, well you’re a businessman. Which one would you close, the one that doesn’t cost you anything if it sits idle or the one at home where you are liable for benefits?

[BanginJimmy]

. You can import all the cars into Japan you like but the Japanese won’t buy them because it is considered bad taste for a Japanese to drive a foreign car it is looked down up and as I’m sure you are aware in Japan appearance is everything.

Actually you are wrong here. When I lived in Japan, owning a foreign made car was a luxery item that only the upper class could afford. Caddies cost in upwards of 100K (in dollars) because of the import duties, exchange rates, and the simple fact that a luxery vehicle draws a larger price. You are right about apprearance though. Driving a foreign made car gives the appearance of money and power.

[Vteckidd]

Dear Mr. Kidd,

You love your country all right, like an Alabama country boy loves his sister.
You are obviously very young because you have little vision you think, this week, this month, this year.

Like a child at Christmas your concern is only for what’s under the tree for you. You fail to understand that prosperity would help your business and conversely economic hard times will hurt your business. Unlike you I have worked in manufacturing, I have worked with both foreign and domestic companies. You are an importer not a manufacturer and you are small time, I can tell that because if you had a product of any true merit the Asian supplier would steal your idea and you would wake up one day to find that you were competing against yourself in the market place.

Of course they would have a huge cost advantage because they cut you out of the business model. Have you ever tried to win a patent fight in an Asian court? Ain’t gonna happen!

You quote pay statistics that you know nothing about, my wife is a Paramedic $30K
with bullshit insurance, cops $28K and guess who pays to have their uniforms pressed.
Now a Union Paramedic makes $50 K and maybe does a little racing on the weekend.
No one is saying everyone deserves $500K that is your ranting likewise earning money isn’t bad its good the more money we have in this country the better. The Asian economies understand this, that is why they place restrictions on importing goods into their countries.

Japan for instance is famous for telling manufacturers wishing to import into Japan, No!
There is no market for that here. The import duty to ship a car into Korea is 25% for the Koreans to ship one here is 1%. You can import all the cars into Japan you like but the Japanese won’t buy them because it is considered bad taste for a Japanese to drive a foreign car it is looked down up and as I’m sure you are aware in Japan appearance is everything.

The Asians have built car factories here, because now it is the Americans who work for peanuts and ask no questions. Toyota gave their employees a $20,000 bonus this year, only their Japanese employees. The American employees were told to go back to your shack Negro’s we’ll call you when we need you. The state of Georgia gave Kia motors $100,000,000 in tax abatement do you know who is going to make up the difference to the state? You are, and if Kia decides to close a factory, well you’re a businessman. Which one would you close, the one that doesn’t cost you anything if it sits idle or the one at home where you are liable for benefits?

Id love to go off and write another 4 page novel about how you are wrong, but ive said my piece, sorry you just dont get it.

Cheers

[SPOOLIN]

Daveparts = dumbass +1