How do the rest of Ya'll feel about it?
Personally, I say fuck em. We just gave out $700 billion and they haven't even spent that yet.
Auto Bailout?
How do the rest of Ya'll feel about it?
Personally, I say fuck em. We just gave out $700 billion and they haven't even spent that yet.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10Originally Posted by AlanŽ
"Let Detroit Go Bankrupt"
either way we are paying for their loss. bankruptcy isnt free and those debts dont just disappear. taxpayers foot the bill for it. also it will cost a hell of a lot more than 25 billion to pay for their bankruptcy than to give it to them up front. but on the other hand, i dont agree because we dont have the money to bail them out but its one of those damned if you do, damned if you dont.
EF SQUAD FTMFW!!!!
well if we're bailing out the banks , why not the big 3. More ppl will lose their jobs if the big three goes down than any bank. I still believe we shouldn't have bailed any of those compaines out to begin with, but if we bail one out then we should bail others out too
2006 Evo IX - Bolt ons
Why because it's only fair?
I find it funny that we have foreign auto makers here in this country that can build and assemble cars here and ship them back to the EU and they aren't running back to the German, Japanese, Korean Govt's begging for money. Obviously the way that the companies are structured, doing business isn't working. The big Three are big through 2 billion a piece A MONTH. Also did you know that GM is paying more people through pensions than they currently employ? Add in the fact that the Unions won't even negotiate with the Big 3 and we end up where we are right now.
Sorry just because we gave out $700 Billion to companies that shouldn't have got it in the first place doesn't mean we should just continue handing out money because we can.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
I believe congress approved 700 billion in bailout, like it or not the money will be spent on compaines. I think that money should have went to buiulding up u.s. infrastructures and also develop our own energy. But b/c that money will not be used I rather that money go to a industry that really needs the help, b/c a lot of people will be affected if they go under. Also more gov't oversight will come with the bailout which will hopefully stop this from happening again
2006 Evo IX - Bolt ons
Your explination makes no sense. You do realize that any "oversight" made over money lent to corporations still doesn't effect how the company is run or how it is structured it just makes sure that the money doesnt go to places it shouldn't it still doesn't fix the underlying root problem of the fact that whatever business plant that a company is using doesn't work. If that's what you want let's just spend all our money for the next 2 decades and buy up every major corporation and run them.
Cause that would really work considering Social Security prolly won't be around for either of us.
I agree with you the money should have been spent internally.
Does it suck that people are losing their jobs? Yes but what good does it to do to just keep throwing good money after bad meanwhile nothing changes.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Nothing really to agrue about, I didn't support the bailout from day one (could expalin why I suck at explaining it) and you can look up my early post. I find it funny that politcians asked for 850 billion and I still believe they don't know where to spend it at. There is no real plan for the money and which only makes me more anger that the 850 billion passed with know real plan on how to use it. Screw both parties and f Bush for hurrying that bill threw the house and onto the senate. I don't support stimlus checks and bail out packages, it only hurts the country later.Your explination makes no sense. You do realize that any "oversight" made over money lent to corporations still doesn't effect how the company is run or how it is structured it just makes sure that the money doesnt go to places it shouldn't it still doesn't fix the underlying root problem of the fact that whatever business plant that a company is using doesn't work. If that's what you want let's just spend all our money for the next 2 decades and buy up every major corporation and run them.
Cause that would really work considering Social Security prolly won't be around for either of us.
I agree with you the money should have been spent internally.
Does it suck that people are losing their jobs? Yes but what good does it to do to just keep throwing good money after bad meanwhile nothing changes.
2006 Evo IX - Bolt ons
Thats actually not true. A few of the foreign automakers are asking for money from their respective governments the same as the Big 3 are asking for it from our government. Also, there are more than three companies after the money from the bailout, not just Detroit. What happens when the Big 3 do go bankrupt? Between the three of them they employ approximatly 3.5 million Americans. If each were to cut their workforce by a third (which is likely if faced with bankruptcy) thats about 1 million people out of work in one blow. Then when production and R&D is cut, what happens to their steel, or glass, or other suppliers? They have to lay people off to make up for the loss in revenue. If the Big 3 to go down, the rest of the contry will go with them.
Actually it is
http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/19/news...inese_auto.ap/
The chinese are the only ones going to their government for help. The Germans, Britts, Etc. haven't reached that point yet.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
I read a while back that if the Big 3 were to go under it would cost more than 10 million jobs in the US over about a 5 year span. That includes the actual corporations, their suppliers, then the last to go will be the dealerships and mechanics.
well yeah....plant employees, dealers, salesmen, parts sales, it would all crumble...you also got to remember our military is supplied w/ american vehicles...parts and so forth. You name it and everyone gets hit when they go under but hey thats life man. Shit happens thats why they made the t shirts that say SHIT HAPPENS......cause it always does
I wonder if they go under can I get an american car for really cheap?????
That may be but it's called the business cycle. Bad underperforming companies fall all the time, they are then replaced by those who are better, more organized ones. It's Capitalism. And while it may suck to think 10 million more Americans will be out of work, why should we (The Tax-Payer) reward the Big 3 for poor business choices. This bailout is simple...the Democrats dont want to let GM go into bankruptcy because it would hurt their reliable union votes. Bailouts wont bring profits back. This will just become a perpetual drain on taxpayers to support UAW workers.
x2
Shift_Clean
LOL. Speaking of oversight I almost forgot.
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/11/hbc-90003837
Party leaders on Capitol Hill were supposed to name a special oversight commission to check how the bailout was using its legal authorities, according to the law. But over a month has passed without a single name put forward.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Let them fail. They have failed to innovate over the last 20+ years and now feel that taxpayers should pay for there failures. Honestly, if you look at a GM (Chevy) 305ci or 350ci engine from the 70's and the ones of the late 90's, before the switch to the 327ci engine, there is no innovation there. The same applies to Ford's 302ci or 351ci engines and same applies to Chrysler engines (2.5L 4cyl or 4.0 6cyl or 5.9l 8cyl) There is no innovation.
I will agree with redGT on saying let them fail. If they would have spent all this time trying to make their product more marketable to the public instead of just turning a profit, they wouldn't be in this mess. The best examples of innovation come from foreign car companies.
Let them fail and relearn what it takes to make a business successful.
PS - I know both GM and Ford have been in business for over 100 years, however, the market changes and businesses must adapt, they haven't.
92 EH2 - Current "We will build him, better, stronger, faster."
98 EJ8 - Stolen (Thieves)
The easiest example is Nissan bankruptcy 10 years ago. They hire Carlos Ghosn and he turns them into an ultra profitable company.
GM needs to realize that selling 6 of the exact same car with different badging isn't gonna work in a world with common sense and the lie that is "buy American" isn't working anymore. Especially when the laid off GM auto workers go to the Nissan, Toyota, Kia, BMW, Mercedes, Subaru, and Honda plants to seek work and build Japanese cars stateside.
That guy is top one the most..if not THE MOST respectable person in the Auto Industry.
Leisa and S. 4 Life NM?
+1
They need to declare bankruptcy and reorganize. Otherwise we will be bailing them out 5 years from now again.
I mean my uncle made a GREAT point, the airlines went bankrupt (delta did) and now they are stronger because of it. Of course my uncle got a pay cut but the company is stronger and more viable now than it was before.
GM and FORD need to go into bankruptcy, they need to re-evaluate their pensions, wages, etc. They need to figure out why their cars dont sell. I mean why are they paying $2000 PER CAR THEY SELL TO RETIRED WORKERS?
Theres almost no money left for a profit.
The initial shock would be bad if they go into bankruptcy, but, hey, only the strong survive
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
Kevin (Kustom Buildz) I had a good conversation off of here and one thing that he and I disagree on is timing? Kevin seems to think that doing it after the economy swings back up would be better and I disagree. The last thing you want is to have the Big 3 go down during an upswing. When the market starts going back up and the big 3 go under it would be a huge step back.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
i say fuck them on 1 hand on the other. something has to happen, if they go down lost of jobs go with them. im at the point were im getting ready to ask for a 10 billion dollar bailout for myself and go on vaction.
read my post. Job security is not a guarantee in life.
thats very true this day in age. people getting laid off from companys they been with for 20+ years.
They should have invested more time and effort in innovation, and advancing their product, instead of bullshit patriotic marketing schemes, and ways to sell the same shitty car under different brand names.
Their products have been garbage for decades now, and now the very people who don't want to buy their shitty products anymore are supposed to cover the bill to keep them from going under? I think not. You keep a business afloat by offering a competitive product. All the big 3 had to do was open a single car magazine in the past twenty years, to know where they were falling short.
Believe me, this is going to happen. Probably exactly how the first bailout happened. It gets voted down, but then special interest groups that have their dicks in Washington's ass get involved, regardless of their relevance to the plan, and all of a sudden it gets approved. Funny how the first bailout didn't pass until another 150 billion was added, and that extra money isn't going to any troubled lending company.
i wouldnt call them garbage
corvette,CTS,G8,GTO,camaro,mustang,sky,cobalt ss are fine cars for wat they are....but most of thier cars are shit
personlly my camaro is the only GM id buy and reason i have it is because,i like how it looks,i like how it drives,i like the torque,i like ttops,i like how easy it is to mod them and for not much money,how reiable it is and gas milage it gets..
but if i get something else id deff upgrade to GTO,SL500 or 540
has every one in america lost there heads! let the big three fall are you guys fucking stupid! this is part of the problem in america just tell every one to go fuck themselfs! do you guys realise how many jobs would be lost? not just from the big three but the mile long list of smaller companys that supply the big three! the economy is tanking because people dont have jobs! people are not spending money because of it! we need to get americans working i honesty think we should tax the shit out of these imports that china and japan has flooded the market with! that way it would be cheaper to build here in american what we need that way americans are working and our money is staying here in the u.s where we need it!
Hella stock member!
afuckinggree
You do realize that a ton of import manufacturers have factories in the states now? And that domestic car manufacturers have plants in foreign countries right? The Toyota Camry is built in Kentucky, while the Ford F series is built in Mexico. The Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon is built in Mexico aswell. Honda has six facilities in Ohio, and BMW has a huge one in South Carolina.
So yeah, lets tax the shit out those damn japs for not employing more American workers.
now u see the light
Foreign carmarkers already know that; that is why they build plants in the US to avoid the taxes and at the same time, still produce a better quality automobile for lower cost.
It is time for the Big 3 to open their eyes to what the market wants instead of rebranding vehicles. Innovation breeds success, just ask the foreign carmarkers.
92 EH2 - Current "We will build him, better, stronger, faster."
98 EJ8 - Stolen (
Wow seriously?Think about this for one second.
1. The Big Three are no longer making money
2. Because of this they are laying off people
3. They are no longer making money because people aren't buying their shit for 2 reasons
1. Their products are no longer competitive
2. The Economy is down the tubes
With that said answer me this....
How does throwing $25 Billion dollars of Tax Payer money fix 3 Companies that are no longer competitive because
1. The business model that they are using has them burning through billions A MONTH.
2. Their products are no where near as competitive as others.
Prime example. Look at the new mustang coming out. The car has been out 45 years and still doesn't have a Independent rear suspension? Why in the last 5 years as other cars in the same price range does it still not have Brembo's? Why in the world would anybody spend $37K on a fully loaded V8 Mustang that makes 325 and gets 23 MPG HWY.
WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU BUY IT?!?!?!
When for the same money you could get a 335i. Has 300hp. Gets 30MPG HWY. Has a Independent rear suspension. Has run flats. And when you grab something inside it doesn't feel so damn cheap.
Seriously the quality of the products the Big 3 make is crap compared to European and Japanese cars.
And your Idea to tax, tariff them to make buying American the only solution si ridiculous. You do realize, BMW, Subaru, Toyota, Kia are all foreign car companies with Plants right here in the U.S. employing American workers. You're so worried about workers what do you think those companies will do when their products don't sell? LAY OFF AMERICAN WORKERS.
BTW they tried this cockamanie idea back in the Colonial days and guess what happened? They figured out ways to get the better products in under the radar because even though the local product was cheaper it still didn't change the fact that the local product WAS SHIT.
So to summarize.
We have a failing Economy, Credit Lenders tightening tighter than a virgin. And you want us to throw MORE tax payer dollars at a company with a failing business plan simply to save jobs. Yet.....(and this is what I find amusing)you want us to tax the fuck out of foreign automakers who HIRE AMERICAN WORKERS.
Throwing our money at a company will not fix anything. The government can give them the money and say "Here's what you can do and here's what you can't do". It can't go in and tell the company how to restructure it so that it can be competitive and do what you want ultimately which is to prosper, grow, hire more people, pay more taxes.
What the government can do, is tell them "Nope sorry, no can do". You know what will happen? The wheels inside people's heads will start turning and a fire will get lit under someones ass and they will figure out how to make the problem work. But ultimately the products also need to become better. And that will take 5 years.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Note #1:Wow seriously?
1. The Big Three are no longer making money
This is true.
2. Because of this they are laying off people
Also true.
3. They are no longer making money because people aren't buying their shit for 2 reasons
1. Their products are no longer competitive
Yes, but this is turning around. Look at the new Impala from Chevrolet. It won car of the year with a beautiful interior, clean exterior and a tried and true drivetrain - sounds like the right direction.
2. The Economy is down the tubes
Of course, this is hurting everyone.
With that said answer me this....
How does throwing $25 Billion dollars of Tax Payer money fix 3 Companies that are no longer competitive because
1. The business model that they are using has them burning through billions A MONTH.
They are in big trouble right now!
2. Their products are no where near as competitive as others.
Already mentioned
Prime example. Look at the new mustang coming out. The car has been out 45 years and still doesn't have a Independent rear suspension? Why in the last 5 years as other cars in the same price range does it still not have Brembo's? Why in the world would anybody spend $37K on a fully loaded V8 Mustang that makes 325 and gets 23 MPG HWY.
I for one do not understand this move at all. The car has not really changed, yet they have sunk major $$ into marketing and promotion of this new year model. They are tight on money right now! They are paying their marketing guys pretty well and somebody there has thought this through. Maybe this jolt in hype of the Mustang will boost sales numbers in a critical time. Maybe not, but what other options do they have?
WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU BUY IT?!?!?!
on IMPULSE! The beautiful tool of the marketer
When for the same money you could get a 335i. Has 300hp. Gets 30MPG HWY. Has a Independent rear suspension. Has run flats. And when you grab something inside it doesn't feel so damn cheap.
You just outlined what NEEDS to change!
Seriously the quality of the products the Big 3 make is crap compared to European and Japanese cars.
atm, yes! its not good!
And your Idea to tax, tariff them to make buying American the only solution si ridiculous. You do realize, BMW, Subaru, Toyota, Kia are all foreign car companies with Plants right here in the U.S. employing American workers. You're so worried about workers what do you think those companies will do when their products don't sell? LAY OFF AMERICAN WORKERS.
Very strong point, the big 3 are not American companies because they employ Americans, they are American companies because they are owned by Americans. So these changes you guys are proposing are shooting at the wrong targets.
BTW they tried this cockamanie idea back in the Colonial days and guess what happened? They figured out ways to get the better products in under the radar because even though the local product was cheaper it still didn't change the fact that the local product WAS SHIT.
True that
So to summarize.
We have a failing Economy, Credit Lenders tightening tighter than a virgin. And you want us to throw MORE tax payer dollars at a company with a failing business plan simply to save jobs.
YES view note #4
Yet.....(and this is what I find amusing)you want us to tax the fuck out of foreign automakers who HIRE AMERICAN WORKERS.
"Shooting at the wrong target" as mentioned before
Throwing our money at a company will not fix anything. The government can give them the money and say "Here's what you can do and here's what you can't do". It can't go in and tell the company how to restructure it so that it can be competitive and do what you want ultimately which is to prosper, grow, hire more people, pay more taxes.
View note #4
What the government can do, is tell them "Nope sorry, no can do". You know what will happen? The wheels inside people's heads will start turning and a fire will get lit under someones ass and they will figure out how to make the problem work. But ultimately the products also need to become better. And that will take 5 years.
Oh nooo! It will take far longer than one design cycle unless... (note #3)
The automakers are in trouble BECAUSE of the economy. They weren't making awesome cars that outsold everybody a minute ago before the economy took a turn for the worse. No, it is just now so plain and obvious. So now their unfocused round-about methodology and company structures are showing their true colors and they are not pretty. The automakers are being put to the test right now.
Note #2: The Problem
can be summarized with one word. Politics. Here in the free world we have some expectations to fill. We must appease our customers and employees. What do they want? Well, they want security in static regulations. Lock me down on guarantees! So back in the day when the industries were harmful towards the employees there was need for some action against this. Enter the UNIONS! Woohoo! Now we have a big force to stand up for us employees while we are oppressed. Times have changed and the original intention of this action has been lost in smoke. Now we have huge loop holes to weaken and threatin automakers particularly. The leverage these Unions have on the automakers is unreal! This isn't the whole bit bout politics, but I will not go into the others.
Note #3: The Solution
well, no one knows the solution, but here is my thought. The automakers are hurting right now in particular(note #1). As is all of America. The problem with the companies is their structure. So, the solution to that in my opinion is to corner them into having to restructure.
This means:
1) They fall
2) They ask for help
3) They recieve help and in return allow for some regulated restructuring
My thoughts on this is through bankruptcy
Bankruptcy eliminates unions from the equasion. cite: Delta airlines chapter 13
I do not know the details of how they can turn around and restructure, but here are my concerns:
1) They need to do a proper job of restructuring to allow for a better product (more competitive)
2) They do not sacrifice too much control to the gov't
Note #4: What do we do now?
GIVE THEM THE BAILOUT!
But you said they need to go under and restructure!
Yes, you heard me right. The automakers MUST restructure, but why now? They are supporting alot of jobs along side the foreign automakers in the US. Maybe now is not the opportune time to drop that much American industry.
Key point here: The bailout will not solve the underlying problem. It will put it off! I know all about this, I am a procrastinator
So when do we need to allow them to get back on their feet on their own, rather than picking them up? How 'bout in the rehab facility, not the battlefield amidst gunfire.
NIKON Squad | D90
Do you realize that even with a bailout, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD STILL LOSE THEIR JOBS?
That is what GM will have to do downize and close many many more plants to become profitable again. You cant feed money into a failure so they will have to completly restructure. (Something they will have to do whether money comes or doesn't).
And why would we tax something that is a good product just to help GM? Does that make sense in a capitalist economy? People still havn't forgiven Harly Davidson for doing this in the 80's.
Oh and did you read my post? You do know there is a HUGE Kia plant being finished on the Georgia Alabama border? Why cant these people just go get work in a foreign plant located in the USA? These plants also get supplies from similar companies as GM if it is cost effecient.
Don't let GM lobbiest lie to you. In a free market, i shouldn't be taxed on buying a better product. These auto workers chose where they work and just like i had to leave the car business because there was no money left, they will have to do the same.
i heard that, but part of you wants to say fuckem because its like damn, how can a company like those be in such bad shape, it has to be because of business mistakes and what not on there behalf. maybe not budgeting properly, mishandling of funds, you never know
I say yes, b/c if any of those companies go under..its gonna affect everyone. those companies keep the US alive.
In the efforts that people are putting in for these "companys" to continue operating they could turn some of the ideas that they have and use them. The auto company is looking for money 25 billion and that money isn't to bail them out of anything. If you read the fine print of why they want the money is to pay for their people who are collecting pensions. Not to keep them afloat, but only to pay the amount of money they owe. Something that they are unable to turn into a profit. This problem is only going to grow if we do indeed give them the money they are asking for. Because we will only allow the company to continue paying these people and more people will retire and then we will be in even bigger shit. I say they figure out how to pay the people they currently employ less. The import industries here in the US pay their employees almost half of what the "America" indust. pays its employees. That is the biggest problem is we pay twice the annul income and when the company can pay some guy in mexico say 20 dollars a day for work and here in the states pay someone 75+ dollars an hour and we wonder why they outsource all these jobs. Hell if I were in charge of the comp. I would do the same thing. People here are way to greedy to understand that in order to keep their job they will have to take some burden on their shoulders too! now tell me what you all think about that!@
Robbie, welcome to the forums. Hope you become active on here.
Anyways GOOD FUCKING POINT. God I almost forgot about the whole pension thing.That's another god damn problem. The unions won't even talk about negotiating something much less meet them at the negotiating table. If they would sit down and talk to the corporations this would take a HUGE load off the corporations backs.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
I'm gonna start at the top and work my way down.
The Impala in my opinion is a step in the right direction but the Big 3 have a looooooooooooong way to go. You say you don't think they can turn it around in one design cycle but, me being an optomist when it comes to cars I think they can.
Impulse is part of why we are where we are right now. I think after this people are going to be MUCH smarter buyers which means that all sectors of the market become more competitive.
Response to Note 1:
They are in trouble because of a big combination of things The Economy, The pensions, The Unions(you could roll them into one big ball), The credit markets tightening up etc. But like I have been saying they simply aren't competitive they have been slowly been losing their grip on the market for the last few years. No one can deny that. The numbers don't lie.
Response to Note #2
You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't have said it better. The unions pretty much IMHO need to be shown the door. It's amazing what Unions get away with. Not just in the Auto industry but look at any industry that has them. If Wal-Mart gets unionized you think shit will continue to stay cheap and they will still be competitive? Highly unlikely.
Response to Note #3 and #4
I rolled these two into one for two reasons:
1.I'm tired
2.You answered your own questons right here.
We have them right where we want them. You asked why do it in now? Because like you said right now we are in a battle to stay alive.So, the solution to that in my opinion is to corner them into having to restructure.
Think of it like this. You are a company in the middle of an economic down turn. There is nothing you can do about the fact that people are buying. But, you know things are gonna rebound. So what do you do? You start looking at ways to cut costs, do things better. But more importantly(if you're smart anyways)you look to the future. Cause when the economy bounces back you wanna come out swinging and start making up for all the down time. The last thing you wanna be doing is reorganizing an entire company during a HUGE economic upswing. Cause when it goes back down that just means less money to operate on while you're waiting on it to bounce back.
Anyways I'm hitting the sack.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
The only way for these companies to succeed is to go bankrupt, thus being forced to restructure, make better business decisions, and hopefully learn some accountability. Throwing money at the problem is only going to delay the inevitable. Since when is it the governments job to interfere with the free market anyways? If the big 3 can't get their shit together, let those with new/better ideas take their place.
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