Bailout fails and so do stocks!

[4dmin]

Read below and discuss.

Asked whether majority Democrats would try to reverse the stunning defeat, Hoyer said, "We're certainly not going to abandon our responsibility. We'll continue to focus on this and see what actions we can take."Several Republican aides said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., had torpedoed any spirit of bipartisanship that surrounded the bill with her scathing speech near the close of the debate that blamed Bush's policies for the economic turmoil.

Without mentioning her by name, Rep. Adam Putnam, R-Fla., No. 3 Republican, said: "The partisan tone at the end of the debate today I think did impact the votes on our side."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26884523?GT1=43001 <<< full story

and http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...es-092908.aspx






I find it really stupid reps are complaining about Pelosi's speech making references to Bush policies... if thats why reps didn't vote and not b/c of the bill itself that means they are more worried about appearances then doing their job. no if, then, buts about it....


i'm waiting to see what mccain/obama take is on this now.

[BanginJimmy]

I find it really stupid reps are complaining about Pelosi's speech making references to Bush policies... if thats why reps didn't vote and not b/c of the bill itself that means they are more worried about appearances then doing their job. no if, then, buts about it....

She alienated dems too obviously. With a party line vote it would have passed so dont start the "its the reps fault" BS. It is a crappy bill, and made worse by Pelosi's partisan rant.

[The Ninja]

Good.

[Alan®]

She alienated dems too obviously. With a party line vote it would have passed so dont start the "its the reps fault" BS. It is a crappy bill, and made worse by Pelosi's partisan rant.

X2 People have been calling congressman on both sides of the isle and 9:1 nobody is happy about this. I'm not the least bit surprised btw

[4dmin]

She alienated dems too obviously. With a party line vote it would have passed so dont start the "its the reps fault" BS. It is a crappy bill, and made worse by Pelosi's partisan rant.

i didn't say sh!t on whose to blame what i said was if that was the reason for not supporting the bill was b/c of a speech rather then bill itself then that is retarded. anyone should agree to that. they are supposed to be helping out our economy and putting pride aside.

[tony]

If the repubs shot it down I commend them on doing so. Its a good day to buy some stock actually if we know this will eventually pass.

edit: Hopefully it wasnt shot down because of Pelosi and because banks need to figure this **** out on their own.

[The Ninja]

[BanginJimmy]

If the repubs shot it down I commend them on doing so. Its a good day to buy some stock actually if we know this will eventually pass.

edit: Hopefully it wasnt shot down because of Pelosi and because banks need to figure this **** out on their own.

I sold off a couple thousand shares of Freddie I bought at .52 so it was a pretty good day for me on that note. Maybe I will get lucky and see them tank again and buy again and restart the process.

[Alan®]

I sold off a couple thousand shares of Freddie I bought at .52 so it was a pretty good day for me on that note. Maybe I will get lucky and see them tank again and buy again and restart the process.

trippling your money ftw

[mmmmpsi]

To be honest I'm not surprised it failed.. People are just really sick of taxpayers having to foot the bill for companies making bad decisions.. NOW they are going to have to bail themselves out... The people that made these bad loans etc.. ALL would have gotten exactly how much money the would have even after the failure.. This is absolutely disgusting.. They should be fired they shouldn't be given hundreds of millions of dollars worth of severance packages.

Hey look at the bright side. Oil is under 100 bucks again :P

[mmmmpsi]

Dow Jones Industrial Average. INDU (INDEX)
N/APre-Market After Hours N/AChange: N/A N/AVolume: N/A
10,502.52
Change:-640.61 -5.75%
Volume:223,616,267

Ouch.

[mmmmpsi]

Lets just say the HELL with all of this and start all over again from scratch.. Cause that is about what it's going to take..

Dow Jones Industrial Average off 724.56 points to 10,418.57

[Alan®]

George Washington is rolling over in his grave with a big ass Facepalm saying "I told you idiots not to have parties but noooooooo"

[mmmmpsi]

And there she blows!!

10,365.45

Change:-777.68 -6.98%

Volume:382,359,876

[integra938]

Maybe the banks will stop being money hungry now,jacking rates up like crazy on people that cant pay high ass rates.

[Brick]

Maybe the banks will stop being money hungry now,jacking rates up like crazy on people that cant pay high ass rates.

If you can't pay the rates, don't get the loan. That includes what the rate might be later if you don't get a fixed loan. Your every day Joe Idiot is just as responsible as the banks that gave them the money.

[falconey]

this bill better not ever pass

[Vteckidd]

Just shows how partisan and how the pelosi/reed congress can't get anything done, again.

Props to the republicans and dems for sticking it to her

[alpine_aw11]

Just shows how partisan and how the pelosi/reed congress can't get anything done, again.

Props to the republicans and dems for sticking it to her

Pelosi is seriously Lucifer incarnate. She's truly worthless.

[Alan®]

Can't wait to see congres's approval rating after this

[BanginJimmy]

honestly, it should go up. For once they actually did the right thing.

[Vteckidd]

nice rhetoric but passing a bad bill is doing their job? Gimme a break Paul.

I find it really stupid repses to Bush policies... if thats why reps didn't vote and not b/c of the bill itself that means they are more worried about appearances then doing their job. no if, then, buts about it....


i'm waiting to see what mccain/obama take is on this now.

[OG-Skinny]

I'd say give the $700 Billion bail out to taxpayers with homes. Give everyone $100,000 to pay off a house note, or pay some of it. That's make the taxpayers happy, as well as saving the banks asses.

[green91]

Investors with money in these mis-managed stocks are pulling out and driving these stock values down. This is NOT a true indicator of the economy though. I would rather see a portion of the 700bn go to raising FDIC limits, tackling energy problems & adopting a plan for managing loans.

[Vteckidd]

fact is there is zero leadership on both sides.

[ironchef]

I'd say this seals the deal for Obama to win, people are going to realize that republicans were the ones behind the bill not getting passed, thus creating the **** storm today and more than likely tomorrow.

As far as why the $700 billion should be passed (even though everyone agrees that its wrong, its pretty much the only option) heres a good post I read on another forum that summarized it pretty well.

I was in the mortgage business for 2 years and my degree is in Finance. Not saying that makes me the end-all, be-all of Financial/Economic knowledge, but it probably makes my guess about 25% better than the average joe. LoL.

Anyway, you're oversimplifying the problem. It wasnt just that the real estate became over-valued and over-speculated, it was also the types of instruments used to finance that activity. Giving high-risk loans to speculators was a dumb idea, but almost every single bank out there was doing it.

When that mixture of R/E bubble + high risk lending practices combined with spiking fuel costs, which then diffused out into the market & began to reflect in the cost of human necessities that usually require transport to be brought to the the consumer (namely, food), most consumers started tightening their budgets. As consumers had less to spend (because gas & food were costing more), many businesses started to see sharply decreased revenues. With the decreased revenues came job cuts. With job cuts and increased costs for other necessities, many of those high risk loans started to go into default.

As increasing numbers of loans started defaulting, the banks began offering less of those easy-to-get loans... and since people now had less money to spend anyway, there was sharp drop in home sales... less loas + less people asking for loans = WAY less home sales.

As Economics 101 teaches us, price is determined by the market at the point where supply and demand cross. Decrease the demand to buy houses, and it'll mean more and more houses on the market waiting to be sold (increased supply). Soon, it wasnt just speculators that couldnt get out of their mortgages by selling the house... it was the Average Joe that was now having to spend more for the basics, and maybe his wife lost her job at some retail place because sales were way off.

So at that point, middle America was starting to see a snowball effect... costs for fuel and food steadily increasing, lots of job cuts, adjustable rate mortgages start kicking in, which all combined just about killed all demand for new homes. As demand falls, so do prices/values. The bubble pops.

Now, the problem isn't really the value dropping as such... its that the mortgages are being dafaulted on at an alarming rate. And when the bank/lender has to take back a house and sell it at auction, they can rarely get even 75% of the value because they are selling it for cash. Not to mention that the avg joe that cant afford his mortgage payments often didnt have the money to do basic upkeep for a long time- so the houses themselves are often in need of many repairs. So, banks are taking back homes that have dropped in value by about 20% already, then when they auction them off they're only getting 65%-75% of that value even on perfectly good houses & much, much less on the houses that need repairs- taking huge losses.

As the banks start taking those huge losses, not only does their own stock drop, but all the institutional investors start loosing money on the income streams (bundled mortgages) they purchased. Now **** really hits the fan.

Avg Joe is now paying more for everything, and if he was lucky enough to have a retirement fund, it's probably dropped by 20%-25% as the market sinks. Airfare is higher so less people travel, causing many airlines to go out of business leaving thousands of people (like Avg Joe) unemployed. The retail sector is also crashing as people are spending less and less on non-eesentials. More layoffs and cutbacks there. And the more sectors that get hit hard, the more people are put out of work. The more people are put out of work, the more they default on their mortgages. The more the defaults pile up, the more deep losses the banks and large investing institutions (Retirement funds, Insurers, etc) take, so the less they are able to remain liquid.

So, it's a snowballing effect. And the real solution is stop the defaulting of mortgages, thereby cutting the losses on Wall Street and haulting the plummetting worldwide economy. The govt plan is to enable the treasury dept to actually buy those mortgages like an investor, in their entirety from the banks. Now the banks wouldn't have risky loans on the books and they'd feel more confident about their own futures, so they'd go back to doing what banks do- lending money for profit.

As for what the govt plans to do with those risky mortgages... well, thats whats taken so long to debate. My guess is that they'll put in place quite a few programs to help people stay in their houses, even in default. The govt doesnt want those damn houses any more than a bank does, so keeping Avg Joe in his house- even if he's out of work and not making payments- is probably better than taking a 50% loss on a $250K loan... about 10 million times over.

There ya go... that should make it all clear as mud for you. Any questions???


-CP

[Vteckidd]

that would be all fine and dandy except dems control congress. Not one republican needed to vote yes for this to pass. Obama and pelosi can't even lead a majority of congress in their own party.

[TIGERJC]

i am glad it didn't go through, hopefully the money will be spent on something that will actually benefit the u.s. long term like investinmg that money into edu, energy and infrastructures

[ironchef]

that would be all fine and dandy except dems control congress. Not one republican needed to vote yes for this to pass. Obama and pelosi can't even lead a majority of congress in their own party.

That is a valid point, but the more important one is that pretty much everyone should've voted yes. This shouldn't be a bipartisan effort. Unite the parties and get this **** straightened out.

[blaknoize]

Sure wish I actually had stock... I woulda done the same as jimmy... then shorted them bishes.

[4dmin]

nice rhetoric but passing a bad bill is doing their job? Gimme a break Paul.

mike you are have one of the most biased opinions on here... you obviously didn't read what i posted. and being the car industry doesn't qualify you or i to decide if the bill can fix our problems. furthermore your president + admin (head of treasury) made the bill.

i said it is ridiculous if the reason they didn't vote was b/c of speeches. if it would fix our economy then support it and put pride aside. i am not for bailing out high $ execs that screwed us and you should know that i'm for obamas taxe plan .

that would be all fine and dandy except dems control congress. Not one republican needed to vote yes for this to pass. Obama and pelosi can't even lead a majority of congress in their own party.

neither could bush/mccain or the rest of the reps... why do you think pelosi is where she is now

[stephen]

i don't understand...we all agree that the $700B bail out isn't exactly fair to us, right? well, we lost over 1 trillion dollars today in the stock market, partly due to the failure of the bail out. it almost seems like we're cutting off our nose to spite our face...where's the logic?

[rehab]

On the micro level, let me see if I have this whole thing figured out, correctly:

Home loans were made to people who probably couldn't make the payments (subprime), but the lenders didn't care because they were not only going to package and sale the mortgage but when, not if, the borrower defaulted, the rising value of real estate plus their limited payments would make reselling the house profitable even highly profitable. This was okay until the inflation in house prices stabilized or dropped and the number of repackaged bad loans was realized.

The ****ed up part being that whoever made the original loan was long ago removed from having to deal with any risk because they sold the **** with the gravy.

It was a big fat game of musical chairs, but as more and more chairs were being removed everyone just hoped the music wouldn't stop rather than covering their asses?

Not a Einstein-level of analogy obviously, but is it accurate?

[Vteckidd]

neither could bush/mccain or the rest of the reps... why do you think pelosi is where she is now

Pelosi only has HERSELF to blame.

Fact is, and Clinton came out an said it too this week, the DEMOCRATS have had their pockets lined by Fannie and Freddie for YEARS. Barney Frank shouldnt even be allowed to show his face.

Bush, Mccain, and others all pushed for Reform as long ago as 2000. The DEMS BLOCKED IT EVERY TIME. So lets not kid ourselves who is to blame.

If the Dems were so for "the middle class" and protecting the TAX PAYERS, then why were they trying to get HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS from this plan to donate to their ULTRA LEFT WING Lobbyists, Labor Parties, and organizations.

THey wanted 200 MIllion to go to ACORN

Clinton even tried to get reform done, and under him the Dems blocked anything he tried to do.

Fact is YOUR party has had control over the Congress for 2 years, they have done as much as Obama has, which is NOTHING.

For pelosi to make that rant today shows just how STUPID she is, and how she is trying to rewrite history.

I mean come on you guys are on crack. Why are you allowed to REWRITE HISTORY to make it sute your party.

I want to throw this out there even though because you have made the argument the war is bringing the economy down too.

80% OF CONGRESS VOTED FOR THE WAR. It wasnt about WMD, it wasnt about going affter 9/11 terrorists, go read what its about. Obama wasnt for the war, great, he had NO POLITICAL STAKE IN ANTHING Its easy to say you are against something when your vote doesnt count cause you werent even in the senate or house.

Obamas TOP ECONOMIC ADVISOR used to run Fannie Mae and LEHMAN BROTHERS, so you want to talk about GREEDY CEOs, look at who is advising OBAMA.

Pelosi is a loud mouth and she got ****ED today, and im glad they didnt pass a bad bill.

[Alan®]

i don't understand...we all agree that the $700B bail out isn't exactly fair to us, right? well, we lost over 1 trillion dollars today in the stock market, partly due to the failure of the bail out. it almost seems like we're cutting off our nose to spite our face...where's the logic?

In all actuality we would have lost that money one way or the other. I have been reading a lot of stuff that says this $700 billion will prop us up for a short amount of time and then it would come crashing down. There was also stuff in there that would have effected those homeowners who actually paid their mortgage but were unfortunately surrounded by those who were irresponsible and bought houses they couldn't afford.

This bailout is not a guarantee. There's a good chance it could work and there's a good chance it won't. Nobody knows.

[Alan®]

THey wanted 200 MIllion to go to ACORN

Yea I read that as well. WTF

[4dmin]

Pelosi only has HERSELF to blame.

Fact is, and Clinton came out an said it too this week, the DEMOCRATS have had their pockets lined by Fannie and Freddie for YEARS. Barney Frank shouldnt even be allowed to show his face.

Bush, Mccain, and others all pushed for Reform as long ago as 2000. The DEMS BLOCKED IT EVERY TIME. So lets not kid ourselves who is to blame.

If the Dems were so for "the middle class" and protecting the TAX PAYERS, then why were they trying to get HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS from this plan to donate to their ULTRA LEFT WING Lobbyists, Labor Parties, and organizations.

THey wanted 200 MIllion to go to ACORN

Clinton even tried to get reform done, and under him the Dems blocked anything he tried to do.

Fact is YOUR party has had control over the Congress for 2 years, they have done as much as Obama has, which is NOTHING.

For pelosi to make that rant today shows just how STUPID she is, and how she is trying to rewrite history.

I mean come on you guys are on crack. Why are you allowed to REWRITE HISTORY to make it sute your party.

I want to throw this out there even though because you have made the argument the war is bringing the economy down too.

80% OF CONGRESS VOTED FOR THE WAR. It wasnt about WMD, it wasnt about going affter 9/11 terrorists, go read what its about. Obama wasnt for the war, great, he had NO POLITICAL STAKE IN ANTHING Its easy to say you are against something when your vote doesnt count cause you werent even in the senate or house.

Obamas TOP ECONOMIC ADVISOR used to run Fannie Mae and LEHMAN BROTHERS, so you want to talk about GREEDY CEOs, look at who is advising OBAMA.

Pelosi is a loud mouth and she got ****ED today, and im glad they didnt pass a bad bill.

mike you make some of the most ignorant post... you obviously know a lot less then you make yourself out to know. you need to actually READ more on everything you have stated b/c you are grossly inaccurate on a lot of it.

bush/mccain couldn't get any reform to pass when their own party REPUBLICANS HAD MAJORITY. i already had to point that out to your far far right nut swingers in another thread. furthermore mccain isn't clean from ties to freddie/fannie he too accepted money and this is know. his economic advisor was the head lobbiest for them and had a 50 million dollar budget between 03-06. what is even better is mccains reform bill for housing market wanted to do away w/ lobbiest in this market yet he hired one to work for him

get your facts straight mike. both parties reps/dems + mccain/obama have their hand in this no one is innocent.

[man]

i didn't say sh!t on whose to blame what i said was if that was the reason for not supporting the bill was b/c of a speech rather then bill itself then that is retarded. anyone should agree to that. they are supposed to be helping out our economy and putting pride aside.

Tell that to Pelosi also... Funny how you only see one side of things

[4dmin]

Tell that to Pelosi also... Funny how you only see one side of things

you are another moron too who obviously doesn't READ much. i'm one sided for holding people accountable for voting on the issues not their pride

thats a dumb f*cking statement. i would love to know your education and what you do for a living.

[Vteckidd]

problem is paul you are so far left its impossible to have any kind of argument or contructive debate. You an Tony are so out there lol

I mean you didnt answer 90% of my questions still.

I still love you and ive come to grips that the "kool aid" drinkers might just get it when this country goes into a deep recession if Obama gets in