Sex education in schools...?

[metalman]

i clearly understand your point, .........

if we pay a little more attention to obama's plan, and not tear it apart just for the sake of an argument....

Actually I am not quite sure you do understand my point.

1. We already have sex ed, I have no issue with general science/sex ed being given to students in age appropriate manner. I have no issue with information regarding STDs and the potential hazards of sexual behavior being given. Knowlege is good.

2. Before there was sex ed teen preg rates/stds etc were far lower, now with it theyre higher YOU DO THE MATH, after a point adding more sex ed doesnt work, people ALREADY know all about sex...and are DOING IT obviously. Teen preg rates are increasing....NOT due to any lack of sex/birth control info but as a result of the lack of MORAL INSTRUCTION from parents, misguided prioities, the idolization of sheithead role models by our youth, the lack of parenting, and the general moral decay of society. For those needing 'cited statistics' those facts alone should suffice.

3. Parents should quit asking the state to do THEIR JOB, which is THEIR DUTY as parents....that being the moral instuction of their children governed by their own individual concience and belief. The state should NEVER interfere with that process. Do so is far more dangerous then any situation we now face in this area. I would argue that one of the primary reasons we have these issues is that parents ARE relying on the state to do their job. That IS the problem to begin with. Increasing that state involvement will only increase the problems. We need increased parenting. The state CANNOT do the parents job. Its not possible, nor is it in keeping with the ideals of our constitution and great nation.


4. The ridiculous notion that increasing sex ed info or adding masturbation facts etc will somehow decrease preg rates or stds is absurd! Who in the hell doesnt ALREADY know about bean wacking or rocking the man in the boat??? Who doesnt know about condoms or other birth control? Perhaps they exist in some corner of the world but I have NEVER met such a person, even as a child back when sex was rarely spoken of. Are there really chicks here that got pregnant just because they didnt know they could diddle their own clit???
Are there guys here that got their GF preg all because they never heard of wanking the one eyed trouser snake??? I mean really! Thats BS.
All of this is 'adding additional info' is looking in the WRONG direction for answers to our sexual problems. Redundancy of info will not help us! Face it, kids ALREADY know all about sex, adding more redundant tech data really will accomplish nothing. Its not that I mind if my kids know about masturbation etc...they ALREADY know...and so do ALL their friends!!!
If thats really Obamas plan then he IS delusional. Do you really think kids acting out sexually dont know about masturbation?? Condoms?? Etc? Even kids in my "ancient" generation knew all about that stuff in lower elementary grades...and we had no sex ed in my school. In 2008 I find the notion that kids are 'unknowing' to be ridiculous. If anything, they probably know too much! lol..what they lack is an ability to make proper decisions with that knowlege. My mothers experience as a social worker mirrors all of this as well. Yes, more education is needed, a better quality education in a general sense...a better sense of PRIORITY for life decisions, a better example put forth by parents, parents more involved in PARENTING.

5. I have not torn apart Obamaramas plan...except inadvertantly perhaps.. as he has socialist ideas. I havent even studied his plan, as there are far more important issues to me concerning him, however, I have addressed some general principles on this interesting topic that I do have slight life experience in.

[Jaimecbr900]

Very good post Metalman.


You know what would probably go further in curbing unwanted teen pregnancies????? Substitute sex ed class with time served in a maternity ward of a hospital helping deliver an actual live baby.....or spend some tangible time working with social workers who visit with abandoned children.....or maybe make each student spend an entire week taking care of a newborn.....that may just go much further towards curbing teen pregnancies than explaining to them how to masturbate or put on a condom. As Metalman said, they likely already know how to do that anyway. The real hurdle is not that they "know" but in reality is getting them to apply that. Many parents go straight to the doctor's office when they find out their sweet innocent teen has BEEN having sex to put them on birth control as if pregnancy is the only issue. A vast majority of those same parents then just wipe their hands as if their job is done. Why is it so hard to sit sweet little Sally down and asking her, "hey, why are you having sex with little Joey?"...or maybe, "hey, there are other ways to show affection at your age like _______".....or "hey, the best birth control is the pill.....when you hold it really tight right here between your KNEES..... ".

You know what the gov't CAN do instead of this????? They can stand up and say, "If you have kids, then YOU take care of them because I'm not going to". The more that people know that they have a safety net, the more risks they take. Guys don't worry about getting a girl pregnant when they think the GIRL is going to take care of the problem if it happens. Girls don't worry about getting pregnant, when they know mommy is going to help them take care of little Johnny. Parents don't worry about their kids getting pregnant when they know the gov't is going to be there to give them WIC, food stamps, and welfare. It's a never ending cycle.

Know what I mean?

[stephen]

Actually I am not quite sure you do understand my point.

i'm quite sure i do...

1. We already have sex ed, I have no issue with general science/sex ed being given to students in age appropriate manner. I have no issue with information regarding STDs and the potential hazards of sexual behavior being given. Knowlege is good.

we both agree here.

2. Before there was sex ed teen preg rates/stds etc were far lower, now with it theyre higher YOU DO THE MATH, after a point adding more sex ed doesnt work, people ALREADY know all about sex...and are DOING IT obviously. Teen preg rates are increasing....NOT due to any lack of sex/birth control info but as a result of the lack of MORAL INSTRUCTION from parents, misguided prioities, the idolization of sheithead role models by our youth, the lack of parenting, and the general moral decay of society. For those needing 'cited statistics' those facts alone should suffice.

i've done the math, YOU haven't completed the equation. pregnancy rates aren't higher due to sex education...that's just a ridiculous assumption. the primary reason is the looseness of media, and other technology based entertainment. think about it...i'm not sure how old you are, but when i was in primary school (late 80s - early 90s) we didn't have programs like ADULT SWIM on cartoon based networks. you had to watch ren & stimpy/bevis & butthead/etc. on MTV. even on NICKELODEON, when did we see "clarissa explains it all" or the kids from "hey dude" making out? you watch high school musical or hannah montana, you're bound to find sexual innuedos. pop music wasn't nearly as vulgar as it is today with both lyrics and videos. THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO TEEN PREGNANCY...not sexual education.

3. Parents should quit asking the state to do THEIR JOB, which is THEIR DUTY as parents....that being the moral instuction of their children governed by their own individual concience and belief. The state should NEVER interfere with that process. Do so is far more dangerous then any situation we now face in this area. I would argue that one of the primary reasons we have these issues is that parents ARE relying on the state to do their job. That IS the problem to begin with. Increasing that state involvement will only increase the problems. We need increased parenting. The state CANNOT do the parents job. Its not possible, nor is it in keeping with the ideals of our constitution and great nation.

making a child AWARE of the bodies, and attempting to protect them from predators and the like, is far from a moral instruction. I DO AGREE that 5yr olds don't need to know about abortion, and even masturbation. they do need to understand that boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina. they need to understand that babies don't fall out of the sky. they need to understand that IT IS NOT OK for people to touch their private parts. the government is still ALLOWING it to be a moral/freedom of choice decision, by giving parents the RIGHT to choose whether they want their child to take a part in the curriculum.

4. The ridiculous notion that increasing sex ed info or adding masturbation facts etc will somehow decrease preg rates or stds is absurd! Who in the hell doesnt ALREADY know about bean wacking or rocking the man in the boat??? Who doesnt know about condoms or other birth control? Perhaps they exist in some corner of the world but I have NEVER met such a person, even as a child back when sex was rarely spoken of. Are there really chicks here that got pregnant just because they didnt know they could diddle their own clit???
Are there guys here that got their GF preg all because they never heard of wanking the one eyed trouser snake??? I mean really! Thats BS.
All of this is 'adding additional info' is looking in the WRONG direction for answers to our sexual problems. Redundancy of info will not help us! Face it, kids ALREADY know all about sex, adding more redundant tech data really will accomplish nothing. Its not that I mind if my kids know about masturbation etc...they ALREADY know...and so do ALL their friends!!!
If thats really Obamas plan then he IS delusional. Do you really think kids acting out sexually dont know about masturbation?? Condoms?? Etc? Even kids in my "ancient" generation knew all about that stuff in lower elementary grades...and we had no sex ed in my school. In 2008 I find the notion that kids are 'unknowing' to be ridiculous. If anything, they probably know too much! lol..what they lack is an ability to make proper decisions with that knowlege. My mothers experience as a social worker mirrors all of this as well. Yes, more education is needed, a better quality education in a general sense...a better sense of PRIORITY for life decisions, a better example put forth by parents, parents more involved in PARENTING.

if you don't believe that sexual awareness/eduction will not help to curb the statistics....all i can tell you is look at other countries like the Netherlands. it's true that it's not THE ONLY SOLUTION, but it's still a step. with your ideology, then programs like Planned Parenthood are useless. once again, you cannot compare your mothers job to this situation...it just doesn't work.

5. I have not torn apart Obamaramas plan...except inadvertantly perhaps.. as he has socialist ideas. I havent even studied his plan, as there are far more important issues to me concerning him, however, I have addressed some general principles on this interesting topic that I do have slight life experience in.

well, if you don't know obama's plan, then you can't properly debate on it. a lot of what you're saying, although true, has little to do with his plan. his first words to the plan in regards to kindergarten kids, has more to do with protecting children from those who try to take advantage of them by making them more aware. teaching children that their private parts are just that...PRIVATE PARTS, is a far cry from the government attempting to take control of our lives.

[metalman]

i'm quite sure i do...

Uhhh no I am afraid you dont. Your post below shows that clearly.

i've done the math, YOU haven't completed the equation. pregnancy rates aren't higher due to sex education...that's just a ridiculous assumption. the primary reason is the looseness of media, and other technology based entertainment. think about it...i'm not sure how old you are, but when i was in primary school (late 80s - early 90s) we didn't have programs like ADULT SWIM on cartoon based networks. you had to watch ren & stimpy/bevis & butthead/etc. on MTV. even on NICKELODEON, when did we see "clarissa explains it all" or the kids from "hey dude" making out? you watch high school musical or hannah montana, you're bound to find sexual innuedos. pop music wasn't nearly as vulgar as it is today with both lyrics and videos. THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO TEEN PREGNANCY...not sexual education.

Here's where you demonstrate you clearly dont understand what I have said.

I never said sexual education increased preg rates. I have already indicated all these (media etc) things you cite are part of the sexual revolution...and the part of problem....which is NOT a lack of information, but lack of responsible parenting and subsequent decision making.

The increase of sex education IS ALREADY IN PLACE....and KNOWLEGE ABOUNDS. There is no shortage of it. That in itself is completely ineffective in addressing the problem.....the increasing preg/std rates show that. There is NO lack of info. You would have to live in a cave to really believe otherwise....and even then you'd figure out how to wack your bean....nature itself takes care of that!! If you need futher instructions you must wear a helmet and ride a very short bus to school.

Everyone is already AWARE!! Not futher awareness is needed. What IS needed is responsible PARENTING and NO state program can provide that.

they need to understand that babies don't fall out of the sky. they need to understand that IT IS NOT OK for people to touch their private parts

Thats the thing...people ALREADY DO understand this. You continue to look in the wrong direction for answers. Perhaps youve been listening to Obama bullsheit I dont know.

once again, you cannot compare your mothers job to this situation...it just doesn't work.

Nothin personal, but thats about the dumbest thing you could post. Her job, and the others like it, have everything to do with this situation. Their duties are often a result of this situation and part and parcel of it. Their undertanding of what ails youth. the amount of typical sexual education rec'd, and the causes/effects of sexual decisions made likely exceed yours considerably.

well, if you don't know obama's plan, then you can't properly debate on it.

Well I dont have to study Obamas stupidity to figure out the truth.
I dont learn truth from studying fiction.
Nor do I need study his plans to carry on an itelligent conversation/debate here. But thanks.

[stephen]

ok...now that jaime explained your math to me, i understand. the fact of the matter is, NEITHER OF YOU still understands what this whole thing is really about. since i'm the one who's on the "obama bullsh.it wagon" let's see how you two compare to the "mccain bullsh.it wagon."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/us...heckpoint.html

if you don't care to read it...then i'll give you EXTENDED cliffs:

-much like the two of you...mccain accuses obama's plan as "COMPREHENSIVE SEX EDUCATION" for kindergarten students, which would be morally wrong.

-obama supported an "AGE AND DEVELOPMENTALLY APPROPRIATE" sexual education course.

-a quote from the article itself, "Mr. Obama stated that he understood the main objective of the legislation, as it pertained to kindergarteners, to be to teach them how to defend themselves against sexual predators." this is TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN PREVENTING TEEN PREGNANCY....THE BASIS OF YOUR ARGUMENT.

-ANOTHER QUOTE FROM OBAMA HIMSELF “I have a 6-year-old daughter and a 3-year-old daughter, and one of the things my wife and I talked to our daughter about is the possibility of somebody touching them inappropriately, and what that might mean,” Mr. Obama said in 2004. “And that was included specifically in the law, so that kindergarteners are able to exercise some possible protection against abuse, because I have family members as well as friends who suffered abuse at that age.”

-*IMPORTANT* Under the Illinois proposal, “medically accurate” education about more complicated topics, including intercourse, contraception and homosexuality, would have been reserved for older students in higher grades.

-my last quote from the article, "The instruction the bill required was comprehensive in that it called for a curriculum that went from kindergarten and through high school, not in the sense that kindergarteners would have been fully exposed to the entire gamut of sex-related issues."

in reference to teen pregnancy...the truth of the matter is, DOING SOMETHING is better than DOING NOTHING. we can all sit here and say that the current sex education has done nothing to curb teen pregnancy...but what more can we do? the fact of the matter is, THE PROBLEM EXIST, AND ALL TAX PAYERS HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. the government is offering ASSISTANCE, not control. i was wrong in saying that metalman's mom's job has nothing to do with the issue, it kind of came out the wrong way. what i really meant was, unlike her job, this curriculum/program is meant to educate children, the future...unlike social services involvement in families, this program give the parents the option to allow their child to take part FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY SEE FIT. having social services remove a child from a "broken home" does not give a parent OR child that right...it's either "fu.ck up...we take them...do good...you keep them."

with this information...you still believe that this plan is designed for the GOBMENT to take over your family???

[Jaimecbr900]

i'm quite sure i do...

No, I really don't think you do (see below).

i've done the math, YOU haven't completed the equation. pregnancy rates aren't higher due to sex education...that's just a ridiculous assumption. the primary reason is the looseness of media, and other technology based entertainment. think about it...i'm not sure how old you are, but when i was in primary school (late 80s - early 90s) we didn't have programs like ADULT SWIM on cartoon based networks. you had to watch ren & stimpy/bevis & butthead/etc. on MTV. even on NICKELODEON, when did we see "clarissa explains it all" or the kids from "hey dude" making out? you watch high school musical or hannah montana, you're bound to find sexual innuedos. pop music wasn't nearly as vulgar as it is today with both lyrics and videos. THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO TEEN PREGNANCY...not sexual education.

Your math is to a totally different equation and that is why he said you don't understand what he's saying. I'll let Metalman correct me if I'm wrong, but here is his equation:

A. BEFORE when there was little to no sex ed= LESS teen preg.
B. NOW when there is a ton MORE sex ed/info= MORE teen preg.
C. AMOUNT of info= no LESS teen preg.
D. CONCLUSION= INFO alone is certainly NOT the answer.

Right or wrong Metalman?

He's not saying that sex ed CAUSES more teen preg. He's saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[metalman]

No, I really don't think you do (see below).



Your math is to a totally different equation and that is why he said you don't understand what he's saying. I'll let Metalman correct me if I'm wrong, but here is his equation:

A. BEFORE when there was little to no sex ed= LESS teen preg.
B. NOW when there is a ton MORE sex ed/info= MORE teen preg.
C. AMOUNT of info= no LESS teen preg.
D. CONCLUSION= INFO alone is certainly NOT the answer.

Hey, someone read and understood!

Thanks Jamie.