So.. she doesn't know what the Bush doctrine is..

[Jaimecbr900]

Good response, no sacasm. Your response is definitaly something to take into consideration.

Thank you.

We should not sit back and wait, but I have always questioned our tactics and motives in the past. The "cause and effect" theory needs to be taken into account. I will get flamed for saying this, but talking with some sense to people makes a big difference. Being cocky and arrogant can get you into trouble. That goes for the US and every other nation.

While I understand what you're saying, rationale has never been a terrorist/dictator/enemy attribute. Know what I mean?

World History shows us that sitting back and doing nothing nets you nothing. Look at Poland. Its invasion sparked our involvement in WWII. I bet if they had the capabilities they would NOT have waited for Hitler to march on in. Look at Israel. The size of a postage stamp, yet because of it's military capabilities it has been able to defend itself against much larger countries because it doesn't sit on it's hands when it gets bombed. Look at Vietnam. Even WITH the U.S. help they still got invaded by N.Vietnam. Look at France.....well, France is just France and we all know what that means.... Seriously, sitting back and waiting on "sanctions" and "diplomacy" often times only prolongs the inevitable. Nothing more.

The Bush Doctrine is a bully tactic......"hey i think you are harbouring terrorist, gotta attack ya"! I don't think Clinton herself would have continued it, but rather she would be easily influenced.

See, this is where you and I probably disagree.

The "Bush doctrine" is active rather than passive. I'm all for that. Follow my logic here for a minute:

IF YOU KNEW by a vast majority of the evidence that 9/11 was being planned, would YOU wait to act? I'm willing to bet that if you ask any one of the families of the more than 3000 people that died that day would say "absolutely not".

This is the premise of the so called "Bush doctrine". No more being sitting ducks and REACTING to terrorist threats. The warm and fuzzy world would have everyone believe that is a much more "peaceful" solution. The reality is that neither logic nor words are going to persuade someone who deep down in their core of beliefs thinks that he/she is acting upon their GOD'S command. As has been shown in this forum a million times before during Religious debates, Religion is based on FAITH and NOT necessarily LOGIC. So it's like fighting a fire with gasoline. Eventhough gasoline is cool and wet like water, it's not. Well, "talking" and "bargaining" with terrorists will NEVER work. They truly believe, right or wrong, that they are on a mandate from their GOD himself to KILL ALL OF US for a ton of reasons. Being passive only gets you DEAD with these people. Is that what you want?

The "IF" statement is null and void, beacuse IF said ties were an issue he would not be where he is right now. Ties to Bin Laden and Sadam didn't stop the other two now did it?

Its not null and void at all. Follow my point:

4 short yrs ago, Obama was a relative unknown. If today he were to still be a relative unknown, do you think that he....as an individual citizen....would NOT be on someone's, somewhere "watch list"????

I just read about a guy that is RETIRED MILITARY full blown home-grown U.S. citizen. Mr. Joe poster boy for Americana as there could be, right? Well, because he married a woman, that LATER converted to Islam, he is NOW.....years AFTER he's already honarably served his country....not being allowed by the U.S. gov't to obtain a passport due to the Patriot Act. A simple passport that you or I could probably get without any difficulty. Why? Because somewhere behind some concrete bunkered walled place, someone found some kind of tie between the wife's Islamic church and terrorism. Who knows how those dots got connected, but they did.

So do you honestly think that due to Obama's ties he would be any different? I seriously doubt it. Wouldn't surprise me if he was already on someone's list somewhere until probably recently.

BTW, there is a big difference in having ties in your background and making ties once you get into office. If the President of the most powerful country in the world is asked to be a diplomat and deal with other leaders who LATER turn out to be our very own enemy, it's not the same as when you VOLUNTARILY make friends in low places on your way to becoming a man. One is voluntary and the other is in the course of doing business. That's very different in every regard.

[metalman]

The "Bush doctrine" is active rather than passive.
.

The problem I have is with what some of that 'action' is.

Bush has implemented measures to allow marshall law and suspension of other freedoms I cherish in certain rather vague circumstances...all in the name of "security". I find that whole concept very troubling. FWIW, I find the concept of Obama being president troubling as well.

I have no problem with action...when its warranted against other countries/enemies...I just dont buy the 'sacrifice personal liberty for security doctrine' that seems to be part of the Bush doctrine...or accompanies it.

I favor a "mind your own business and carry a big stick" policy, if you go to war with an enemy you should seek to uttery destroy them more like Hiroshima, not waste lives and money as in the examples of Viet Nam and Iraq.

[4dmin]

The problem I have is with what some of that 'action' is.

Bush has implemented measures to allow marshall law and suspension of other freedoms I cherish in certain rather vague circumstances...all in the name of "security". I find that whole concept very troubling. FWIW, I find the concept of Obama being president troubling as well.

I have no problem with action...when its warranted against other countries/enemies...I just dont buy the 'sacrifice personal liberty for security doctrine' that seems to be part of the Bush doctrine...or accompanies it.

I favor a "mind your own business and carry a big stick" policy, if you go to war with an enemy you should seek to uttery destroy them more like Hiroshima, not waste lives and money as in the examples of Viet Nam and Iraq.

too bad mccain didn't know you wanted to run for VP - you'd have my vote.

[metalman]

too bad mccain didn't know you wanted to run for VP - you'd have my vote.

haha...you'd be the only one!

I should add that I much prefer diplomacy to war. Every effort should be made to prevent war. But once someone has demonstrated that they are my enemy I am willing to kill them down to the last woman and child...or until they agree to MY reasonable and humane terms, much like WW2 Japan. The notion that the brainwashed children of your extremist enemy are not a "threat" is a false one. American politicians should stop asking its faithful servicemen to fight these namby pamby halfassed 'wars'. If you dont want to utterly KILL ALL the enemy you should stay at the negotiating table.

[4dmin]

haha...you'd be the only one!

I should add that I much prefer diplomacy to war. Every effort should be made to prevent war. But once someone has demonstrated that they are my enemy I am willing to kill them down to the last woman and child...or until they agree to MY reasonable and humane terms, much like WW2 Japan. The notion that the brainwashed children of your extremist enemy are not a "threat" is a false one. American politicians should stop asking its faithful servicemen to fight these namby pamby halfassed 'wars'. If you dont want to utterly KILL ALL the enemy you should stay at the negotiating table.

i agree 101% i can't stand the "dimplomatic war" - we don't live in civil war times where everyone walks onto a field and fires face 2 face

[Jaimecbr900]

#1. I'm not a conspiracy loon. YOU know me better than that Paul. BTW, thanks for the drugs and the ride home last night. Tell Kate she's awesome.

#2. We have to look at the big picture. This Political correctness crap is what has got us to where we are now. I totally agree with Metalman in the respect that war should be all or nothing. Tip toeing through and trying to be all "green" about it is only going to net further wars because the job doesn't get done once and for all, i.e. Iraq.

#3. Diplomacy only gets you so far when you're dealing with real loons. At some point you will have to start shooting. Everyone recognizes this, except the pacifists. They want to "talk" about it. At some point, you have to feel confident that the job will get done if the chips are down. Especially when you are talking about national security.

#4. There will never be 100% proof when it comes to conspiracy. You can only prove so much. Terrorists are never going to show their full hand. So therefore, at some point, leaders have to make a decision BASED UPON the intel and information they are given.

[AirMax95]

While I understand what you're saying, rationale has never been a terrorist/dictator/enemy attribute. Know what I mean?

World History shows us that sitting back and doing nothing nets you nothing. Look at Poland. Its invasion sparked our involvement in WWII. I bet if they had the capabilities they would NOT have waited for Hitler to march on in. Look at Israel. The size of a postage stamp, yet because of it's military capabilities it has been able to defend itself against much larger countries because it doesn't sit on it's hands when it gets bombed. Look at Vietnam. Even WITH the U.S. help they still got invaded by N.Vietnam. Look at France.....well, France is just France and we all know what that means.... Seriously, sitting back and waiting on "sanctions" and "diplomacy" often times only prolongs the inevitable. Nothing more.

Here again I agree completely. If there is a known threat we should definately defend ourselves to the fullest extent possible. My concern is the basis of much of our past "fights" were big lacks of commuinication all over. I like the notion of Obama talking to the world leaders, building a positive rapport. Sure it is the "nice" way to do things, but it could work. Now when people dont want to reason or are just set on violence.....

See, this is where you and I probably disagree.

The "Bush doctrine" is active rather than passive. I'm all for that. Follow my logic here for a minute:

IF YOU KNEW by a vast majority of the evidence that 9/11 was being planned, would YOU wait to act? I'm willing to bet that if you ask any one of the families of the more than 3000 people that died that day would say "absolutely not".

This is the premise of the so called "Bush doctrine". No more being sitting ducks and REACTING to terrorist threats. The warm and fuzzy world would have everyone believe that is a much more "peaceful" solution. The reality is that neither logic nor words are going to persuade someone who deep down in their core of beliefs thinks that he/she is acting upon their GOD'S command. As has been shown in this forum a million times before during Religious debates, Religion is based on FAITH and NOT necessarily LOGIC. So it's like fighting a fire with gasoline. Eventhough gasoline is cool and wet like water, it's not. Well, "talking" and "bargaining" with terrorists will NEVER work. They truly believe, right or wrong, that they are on a mandate from their GOD himself to KILL ALL OF US for a ton of reasons. Being passive only gets you DEAD with these people. Is that what you want?

I agree again! If we KNOW for SURE, then we take care of business

I was referring to the Doctrine as a whole. One of the biggest points in the doctrine is that "replacing dictatorships with democratic governments is both morally justified, since it leads to greater freedom for the citizens of such countries, and strategically wise, since democratic countries are more peaceful, and breed less terrorism, than dictatorial ones". While I agree with the notion, Iraq has proven that it is not that simple. The country still can't stand on it own two feet. Some people don't want our theories and beliefs.

Also, the notion that we the United States has the right to treat countries that harbor or give aid to terrorist groups as terrorists themselves is completely understandable, if you have the correct intel and SOLID proof. If the US keeps walking around pulling the "accusation" trigger, you can only wonder when a country/nation is going to call it quits. Many military analyst felt that our approach would cause nations to create weapons of mass destruction to defend themselves of a random invasion by the US. *cough cough N.Korea is not playing, lol.*

As long as we are doing theses proactive invasions, with good intel for the RIGHT reasons, then the doctrine is fine. GW scares me, as does McCain, with their personal intentions. I see GW's goal on the surface, but its whats beneath that scares me.

Its not null and void at all. Follow my point:

4 short yrs ago, Obama was a relative unknown. If today he were to still be a relative unknown, do you think that he....as an individual citizen....would NOT be on someone's, somewhere "watch list"????

I just read about a guy that is RETIRED MILITARY full blown home-grown U.S. citizen. Mr. Joe poster boy for Americana as there could be, right? Well, because he married a woman, that LATER converted to Islam, he is NOW.....years AFTER he's already honarably served his country....not being allowed by the U.S. gov't to obtain a passport due to the Patriot Act. A simple passport that you or I could probably get without any difficulty. Why? Because somewhere behind some concrete bunkered walled place, someone found some kind of tie between the wife's Islamic church and terrorism. Who knows how those dots got connected, but they did.

So do you honestly think that due to Obama's ties he would be any different? I seriously doubt it. Wouldn't surprise me if he was already on someone's list somewhere until probably recently.

BTW, there is a big difference in having ties in your background and making ties once you get into office. If the President of the most powerful country in the world is asked to be a diplomat and deal with other leaders who LATER turn out to be our very own enemy, it's not the same as when you VOLUNTARILY make friends in low places on your way to becoming a man. One is voluntary and the other is in the course of doing business. That's very different in every regard.

I follow you, but this is America. If they wanted to pull Obamas card they would. Now if he DOES get in office and screws us, then I say mail him to N. Korea.