who me?Originally Posted by nelson9995
who me?
....ur celica.....is. GAHDLIKE.
thank you playa!.. shes a keeper.
uhhhh...... yes, i won the debate about rotaries in lemans with flying colors.LOL You didn't even remotely prove me wrong, you ignored everything I stated. Your example was the 787B, which is the worst example. Rule books tried to push rotaries out, they never gave them the upper hand in professional racing. Your argument in that arena is hilarious.
Take the same car and same weight. One with a rotary one with an LS. $10,000 to spend on the engine ONLY. See which would win. Could be the V8, could be the rotary. Who knows. Comparing a 12A to an LS is just stupid though, I could be stupid and argue that a PP 12A would probably beat a stock LS, except my engine would costs more than a stock LS. lol
In my opinion the rotary MAKES the RX-7. There are other chassis out there just as able.
Stupid rotary race cars...
There was no debate about Le Mans though. Read the thread, I discredited the Le Mans win as "the big win" before we even argued it. Despite what you posted though there was no cheating involved, it's called luck, reliability, and the faster cars breaking down.
You don't realize that the rotary that I had made a lot more power than my 302 stock block ever could, do you?
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Build one, and I will go grab a GSL-SE and do a few suspension mods, and we can go to the track. I'm pretty sure that I will be able to lap you in a session on Road A. 302 makes about 180-190 rwhp stock, and I can easily get a 13b up to 150-160 rwhp with minor effort.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
The better driver will win, that is what will happen. $10K isn't needed for a rotary - period. Half of the money would be better spend on suspension, tires, etc.
Stock LS swap will run more than $5k. I sold a turboed 13b-REW complete setup with EMS and turbo/IC making more than 600rwhp for $3500. Good luck finding LS swaps for that.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Your memory does not serve you well.
Here is what you thought happened.
"zomg rotary won because rotary so awesome!!!!! YAYYYYYY!!!"
Here is the reality of what happened.
Rotary showed up, looked pathetic, got destroyed by every car on the track and was not competitive and was allowed to remove about 1/3 of the cars weight. acknowledging this advantage and their inability to actually out run other cars, Mazda ran a tire/fuel saving strategy and out lasted much faster cars and won the race without posting a single fastest lap.
You thought using a rotary saved a hundred pounds or so and was not a factor. You were unaware that the rotary was allowed to removed 500ish pounds from a 2000 pound car which was an insane advantage.
This is pretty much the case anytime a rotary is on a race track. It's never the better engine, but the rule book offers advantages.
You have NEVER seen me say the rotary won Le Mans because it was awesome. EVER.
Do you not read? Aside from ignoring every word I say, where are you even getting your information? Why are you even debating Le Mans when I have said, in this very thread, in the quote you quoted me on, that I never argued Le Mans and never said it was Mazdas big achievement for the rotary.
Saying it was slower than everything else though is comical, it wasn't the fastest, but out right speed doesn't always win endurance races. Once again, I said it was pure luck.
I also find it funny you act like I'm some stupid kid with no idea how racing works, rules, or history behind anything when you're contradicting yourself.
Go read rule books, review results, then get back with me. Until then, you're just throwing out BS. Saying rule books offer advantages to the rotary is just retarded. Do you think rule makers don't know anything they're writing? Explain why the air restrictors on the last rotary LMP cars were so small they were putting down GT horsepower. Silly rule books always favoring rotary engines.
i wouldnt care if your rotary made 3000hp, it has no business under the hood of a foxbody.
So now your argument is to say that what im saying is not true?
Ok.
I added more. lol
Not true about what? Le Mans? Show me where you're finding that, from what I always understood though there were two prototype classes, as that was the year the new F1 prototypes came out. The older cars faced a weight penalty as we typically see to make teams buy the new cars but the 787B was allowed to run at the new class weight versus adding weight like the others. Is that cheating or why it won? Definitely not. lol
Like you said, it was so slow who cared if it was a little lighter, right?
Need to send emails to rutroe about this. Topgear show about v8 swaps vs originals.
it wasnt a "little lighter".... it was much lighter. That is the only reason it won. I've spelled it out for you in the past. You take your time to research and prove me wrong.... if you can.... and if not, im going to go on enjoying my day and no longer waste any of my brain cells thinking about rotary engines.
That is not the reason why it won, you proved nothing by saying that, if that was the case why didn't the prototypes with the same weight won? Reliability and luck.
Like I said, it won because the faster cars broke, it was reliable, and they had good luck. It didn't matter on weight, what engine was in it, or what lap times it ran. WATCH the race, see how it unfolded, you will see it wouldn't have won otherwise. They ran a good clean race, the engine never had an issue, the car was solid, why argue that they won because they had an advantage? lol
Last edited by Elbow; 09-27-2012 at 01:30 PM.
No different than sticking a 302 in an Rx7.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
you guys are hilarious..
So you're saying being 1/4th lighter than the other cars was not a factor in reliability? The weight of the car doesnt effect the stress on the gearbox? brakes? tires? shocks?
The 787b did not record a single fastest lap. It qualified 17th. It received additional weight reduction because it wasnt a competitive car. Rotary engines in a even format will not win. If you give everyone a car that weighs X amount with the same tires, same body, same everything...... but allow them to use whatever engine they want, the rotary car will not be competitive.
there's a reason rotaries are not more common in the auto industry.
Putting a v8 in a rx7 is correcting a mistake.
What? Why so much bitching here?
Back on topic.
Turnout looked awesome. i'll likely be at the next one, so I'll bring my Nikon and get some neat pics.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth.
- John F. Kennedy
The white 510....... price?
I'm telling you not getting the extra weight the other cars in its class got did not effect reliability, can that up your fuel mileage and tire length? Yeah. Did the other cars suffer reliability issues from weight? No. Why didn't the cars with the same weight as the 787B win? If they added 2000lbs sure, maybe you'd have serious issues, but saying they only won because they didn't get the weight penalty other cars in the class did and were allowed to run the same weight as the new class is just stupid. But this is racing, teams do countless hours of testing, obviously parts are made to last and weight is a factor in those tests.
Go look at Le Mans results, you think every winning car sets the fastest lap?? lol It didn't receive weight REDUCTION, it wasn't forced to ADD weight as the older cars were, the newer cars ran just as light as the 787B but all had mechanical issues. I love how you're still arguing Le Mans though, it's the ONLY thing you could find that benefited the rotary and you're trying to sell it like hot cakes. You ignored everything else I ever said and you're sticking to this one race, which they happened to win. The underdogs beat the big boys, BIG DEAL. They didn't cheat, they were allowed to run the same weight as the top class prototypes, they got lucky and won overall. Simple as that.
NEWS FLASH: RACING IS NEVER AN EQUAL FORMAT UNLESS IT'S A SPEC CLASS. COMPETITION ADJUSTMENTS ARE MADE FOR ANY CAR, V8, V10, 4 CYLINDER, ROTARY. However, all equal cars, all equal HP, all equal weight, I don't see why the rotary wouldn't be just as competitive. It's a different kind of power and a different kind of driving technique. It's also funny that you keep saying rotaries get benefits in racing when it's typically the opposite, in professional sports car racing, specifically prototypes, rotaries have seemed to always face restrictions that would make them restricted and underpowered. Would they dominate everything if they could run at the same power as a piston car? Probably not, but they would have done better.
Rotaries aren't common in the AUTO INDUSTRY such as the street because they don't get that great of fuel mileage, many mechanics won't care to figure them out, and once again as far as economy goes it just doesn't make sense. In racing, different story, they are extremely popular in just about every type of racing. They are reliable, competitive, easy to work on, and make great race engines out of the box.
When will you realize how stupid this argument is? You're arguing your opinion, simple as that. You don't like rotaries and it pisses you off that anyone else does. The ONLY argument you have is from Le Mans in 1991. You ignore every other championship won by a rotary vehicle, every race win, and stick to Le Mans, despite the fact that nobody claimed that win as being the holy grail of the rotary success and that winning that had anything to do with it having a rotary. If it had a 4 cylinder it would be the same exact argument.
Go read the rule books and tell me where the rotary benefits and in which class. Until you do that, you're speaking baseless BS. Hell, according to your theory, rotary race cars should be dominating left and right because of their awesome class benefits. "Oh you have a rotary, here take 2,000lbs off we want you to be much faster than everything else."
I'd be glad to post some rules here for you to see how either cars are all made to be competitive, or how in some cases the rotary has faced hardship. I'm not saying the rotary was always faced with hate or something, I'm just saying they have had it harder than others before. I believe one of the reasons they were sort of pushed away in prototype races is they're too hard to make rules for. That and they wouldn't be competitive today in current ACO type sports car racing. For example in some classes the size of the rotary engine is literally multiplied by two to put it in a higher displacement class. Rule makers aren't stupid enough to say "oh, little engine, race with these Civics."
Example: SCCA GT2
20B (NA of course): 40mm restrictor, cc listed as 3924. Actual 20B cc listed as 1962cc, multiply that by two.
I'm not saying it's bad, as the RX-7 typically does well in GT2, although I don't think I see many 20Bs racing in it, but just an example. Anyone know what HP that would make? I believe a PP 13B in GT2 runs around 300 - 330whp so it would have to be similar.
Last edited by Elbow; 09-28-2012 at 06:52 AM.
Lighter weight definitely impacts wear on tires and brakes. It is a major factor. The lower torque also helps the tires last longer - perhaps the V8s need to reduce their torque to manage their tires better?
The rotary correctly assembled is extremely reliable though, especially in race configurations. There is a reason that rotarys are used in mini500 helicopters - and that was reliability with staying at high revolutions for extended periods of time. You won't see a V8 from a car put into anything like a helicopter, where you life depends on reliability.
In racing, the fastest car is the one that wins the race, by completing the race in the shortest period of time - not who turns the fastest lap. The fastest lap only matters in qualifying, when you are working to get your grid position.
Rotarys have been competitive in racing for decades, and all of their competitors have been piston-powered.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
So, if the rotary outperforms the V8 in a foxbody, wouldn't that be correcting a mistake also?
You have no logic in your reasoning, and it sounds like you have been raped by one too many rotarys.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
I dont need a shop class lesson.
787b was approx 500 pounds lighter than the minimum required weight of 2000 pounds for it's class. 1/4 total weight advantage is a major factor. I cant think of a single aspect of racing or a car's mechanics that would not be effected by that much of a weight difference.
When this car was forced to follow the rules for weight, it was not a competitive car and finished in the double digits. When it qualified at the required weight, it qualified 17th or lower. On race day, even with a 1/4 weight advantage, it did not post a single fastest lap of the day.
There is nothing you can possibly say to convince me that the weight of this car was not the #1 reason that it won.
This is the example i am using because this is the most notable race victory in the history of rotary engines.
Ford has been way more successful in racing than Mazda. Unlike Mazda, Ford makes the engine you need to win races.
But..... you may be on to something Dr Phil, i do have bad past experiences with Rotary engines...... i almost burned to death in a rotary powered vehicle that caught on fire.
Really? Ford has more success? Now you really are spitting out BS. Tell me how many sports car championships Ford won versus Mazda.
Did the 787 even go on to race more? Nobody has argued that it was slower than the other cars. You always argue some stupid point that isn't being discussed.
Rotary racing history is not being discussed?
I'll spell it out for you AGAIN sometime over the weekend, places to be atm. TTYL.
Seriously? Cut that shit out. No matter what you guys say, you're going to disagree so It's not worth saying.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth.
- John F. Kennedy
Well if you say something like that then obviously you need to back it up.
GTFO. Don't rain down on our fun! lol
Plus only one of us is speaking opinions. lol
Sounds good to me, i was tired of talking about this the first time.
I want that white 510 badly.
Looks like you do need more race class - the engine does not make a package win. It is the complete system - car, driver, team, etc.
The weight difference was 375 lbs not 500. And yes, 375 lbs is still significant. They were required to weigh in at 1830, while other C2's came in at 2205 (83%, not 75%). Were you aware that they also limited the power to 700hp from 900hp? That was strategic to increasing the reliability and fuel consumption.
Also, they qualified 12th, but were pushed back 7 places, as the 3.5 tired cars were given the first 7 spots. So, they had to come from 19th to 1st. Must have been a slow car to have done that.
If you think that weight alone is what caused a victory in an endurance race, then you have no clue about racing. It is only one factor, albeit an important one.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
As you are obviously aware, I have no issue with Ford, or Ford powerplants, and yes, Ford has had more overall motorsports victories than Mazda, as they compete in more categories, like off-road truck racing. Mazda has had more sports car class victories though, partially due to many spec classes that specify Mazda engines (Yes, Ford has some too). I though this was a specific discussion though, rather than all motorsports.
I'm guessing that you had a pulsation damper go bad - common problem with the Mazda fuel rail during that time period - but that is not a rotary issue, rather a fuel system design issue. The same fuel rail design on a piston motor would have had the same issue.
What fire did you have that was specifically due to a rotary engine design, and not the external parts, which are common to all motors?
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Stand in line. We all want it.
Lots of guys stick rotarys in them, personally, I like them Nissan powered though.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
That wagon looks dope!
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I've said everything i'm going to say about rotary racing in the other thread.
sr20 seems like it was meant to be inside of a 510, already done the sr20 thing and want more. Next project will be 2jz powered, whatever that project may be.
Sic looking old school rides. Kudos to all!! I'd like to witness one of these big old-school meets sometime…
How about next month? This is a monthly meet after all.
When and where?
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