my 5th bmw

[DinanM3atl]

It very well may be and you probably stumbled upon it. I am arguing the fact of someone calling me a dumbass like I don't know what I am talking about. If you got all that for 450 dollars I would say you got a heck of a deal.

What I was replying to is the false information. There ARE suspensions available, there ARE wheels available and there ARE brakes available. You can make a VERY capable car while maintaining the 4 lug. Look around they exist.Hell look at Thomas, he runs Hawk Blues on stock e30 brakes with no cooling and look how capable it is...

Sure there are more options, some even may be cheaper, but what Thomas said is false. Let alone running those 17" Contours and the unsprung weight they bring with them. On top of that wider tires do not automatically equal more traction. I don't have the time but just go look at McCoy's tire threads but wider doesn't equal more traction. There is more than tire width when you are looking for maximum traction.

I don't just go for what is "cheap". I won't put heavy 17" wheels on a car that runs best with 15s or 16s. If I am going to run a 17" wheel I will atleast get it in the proper offset which +41 is NOT the proper offset and something that is lightweight.

I know right. I have DS2's with 245 on the rear and im putting down 360hp to the wheels and 440 foot pounds of torque, run's 11.6 in the quarter and spinning tires all the way down the track....! And trust me even after the 5-lug im still having traction issues. Im sure it would alot worse. All i have to say is drift car

What does that read to you? That reads that even after he did the 5 lug he has traction issues and that it would be a lot worse if it was 4 lug. That is why I replied that the amount of lugs have nothing to do with the traction.

Maybe it is poor tire choice coupled with an IRS which is not the best for a drag racing situation. It is not horrible but it certainly is not the best. Improper air pressure or wrong rear springs and shocks. There is way more to this equation then worrying about how many lugs you have on the car.

Let me rephrase what I said. MOST of the time doing a 5 lug swap on an e30 is for bling. So you can tell people that you did a 5 lug. Yes there are exceptions to this rule of course as nothing is set in stone. Maybe you want to run a certain wheel and it is not made in 4 lug so you MUST do the 5 lug to mount it up. However if you are going racing then it really is not needed. Look at the drift car they worked on. 4 lug with larger brakes and 16 wheels. Works fine.

I like Thomas(and you Jason) but I am just not going to be called names by someone that said putting 100 octane race fuel in added power when running it in a stock M20. Sorry.

[speedminded]

It very well may be and you probably stumbled upon it. I am arguing the fact of someone calling me a dumbass like I don't know what I am talking about. If you got all that for 450 dollars I would say you got a heck of a deal.

Only $900 for that brake kit? That's pretty good! It's going to cost me that much to build mine with the Porsche calipers. I found the 5-lug conversion for $800 including the diff then should be able to sell it for at least $400...so yeah $400 or less for everything! I've heard of people spending up to $3,000 for a 5 lug conversion, lol! I'll still need coil-overs or may go with the complete E36 H/I-stock kit from Turner, not sure...see what sponsors are willing to do first!


For non-track driving I want to run OEM BMW wheels, either M-parallels, Road stars, or the Style 5 BBS RS from the 528i sport. Of course those wheels will only work/look good if on an e30 with flares or maybe have the wheel shaved to change the offset...

[kendogg]

Goddamnit, now I've been sucked into this too :sigh

5 Lug conversion is a bling mod. It is pointless and stupid. What does it give you? A better choice of wheels that are too big for the car?

The car will handle better on 15s than it will on 17s. 225.50.15 in either an Azenis 615 or Hankook zz2 is what you need and all you need. Rims that fit this size tires are plentiful. In fact I have one set on my e30 now and another set in my garage. 16s are even just a touch too bi but not too bad.

and while your boys car does look decent. The wheels look way too big and it is jacked up now... 15s on a slammed e30 with 225 tires tucked is the way to go if you are going for looks.

If you are going for performance then 15s with 225s and a decent spring/shock combo with some upgraded sways and replace all the bushings so they are fresh is the way to go.

Cliff Notes:

5 Lug swap on e30 is for bling. There is no real benefit.

I will agree that nine times out of 10, when a 5 lug is done, it's done as a 'bling', or mod-list mod. Something to attach nicer, or bigger wheels to. However, there are times and ways when swapping to the E36ti/MZ3 suspension can be beneficial.

Halston do you even know what you are talking about.... You must be a dumb ass. Sorry but PLEASE shut up....! I mean think about your options on Wheels/Offsets, Susspension/Bigger Brakes! No real benefits OK...


I know right. I have DS2's with 245 on the rear and im putting down 360hp to the wheels and 440 foot pounds of torque, run's 11.6 in the quarter and spinning tires all the way down the track....! And trust me even after the 5-lug im still having traction issues. Im sure it would alot worse. All i have to say is drift car

I'll totally agree, as I stated above, that the 5-lug conversion does increase your options in available wheel sizes. Will they be correct or 'proper' for every application though?? No. That is something that needs to be decided by the owner of the car.


Same goes for bigger brakes. Simply swapping in 318ti or MZ3 brakes all around isn't a very good substitute for the stock brakes of the car, it effects the brake bias (obviously, because the vehicles are different dimensions, weights, etc., and require different amounts of braking forces at the front vs the rear of the vehicle). This was demonstrated one day when I was following you and Geoff on 85N right after you did your 5-lug swap - you went to hit the brakes, and your rears locked up – forcing you into the next lane to the left. Thankfully, you're an experienced driver, and you were able t handle it just fine. However, recommending things like this to people who may not be as experienced as you may be a means to disaster.


Suspension – as far as I'm aware, front springs/struts are of quite similar design between both vehicles, and rear geometry is identical between both setups. Eccentrics are available for the rear for camber and toe adjustment. This isn't going to change regardless what setup you have on the vehicle. Front suspension is still a modified McPherson strut – there are camber plates available for both, offset LCAB's, etc., so again, front alignment adjustability isn't a question for either setup either – both are fully available, and roughly the same price between both vehicles.


However, when it comes to springs/shocks – Simply swapping in E36 parts into an E30 isn't the right way to go either. Kinda like how I referred to the brake issues when simply swapping from one vehicle to another. Springs rates for packaged springs (example: H&R Race springs, a matched set F&R) are going to be a different front vs. rear for an E36 ti, MZ3, and an E30. This isn't optimal for handling. Same for shock/strut valving, these won't be optimal fr the vehicle either. Pricing is a bit more expensive for both springs and shocks (brand new, retail) than they are for an E30, and are of the same basic design. There is no added benefit here.


As far as your power claim goes – have a dyno graph or a timeslip to scan and show by chance?? A video from the strip would be preferred, but I understand, I myself included, rarely have a video camera onhand for anything worthwhile.

Really... Where are the wheel limitations? You just don't know of any of the wheels available or they actually don't exist? I think most of the e30 forums would disagree with this statement. Sure it might be a little cheaper to grab up some OEM wheels that don't fit properly and slap them on there and run 245s out back which don't fit either but it certainly has boat lots of more traction than 235s on properly fitted wheels right?

What suspension? You can get coilovers to shocks and springs. JUST like a 4 lug car. So again WHAT is the limitation? You could run motons on an e30 with race springs. The amount of lug bolts you have has ZERO bearing on what suspension fits or is possible. Hell Ground Control makes a Track kit for 1400 dollars. So what is the problem here?

What about brakes? Hmmm these would seem to work just find in one of the many 15 or 16" wheels available for the e30 in the correct offset...


5 lugs doesn't give you more traction... I don't know where you came up with that idea... That just doesn't make any sense. How does adding 1 lug per corner give you more traction?

The name calling really isn't necessary. When you get right down to it you do NOT need to do a 5 lug swap. Sure you may have some cheaper options in wheels but the 4x100 has a BOAT load of wheels in varying offsets and some without the proper offset can be made to fit with some proper spacers from H&R with the Trak series. There are suspension options.

Bottom line is you can build a badass car without doing a 5 lug. End of the story.

More than likely you wont' be sheering off wheel bolts so I don't see how 5 lugs is going to stop you from breaking stuff. You may break some axles but there are plenty of e30 guys running the stock stuff out back with some decent power.

The UUC big brake kit is still up in the air as to if it lives up to it's claims or not – AFAIK, there hasn't been any un-biased testing or results.

In this particular situation it's not needed unless he plans to put big numbers down or even up to 300+hp it may be ok.
I've seen countless axles on the forums sheered at the hub on stock e30's running higher power setups.

The e36/z3m suspension is a later and updated design used on several different models for over a decade after the e30. The debate will never end between what is better on the track though because it's up to the driver. Would anyone agree the e36/z3m suspension is more predictable?

Obviously 4, 5, or 8+ lugs isn't going to give you more traction but it all depends on what wheels you want to put on it, and what you have available, and what you can get cheap...

As for upgraded brakes, I bet my COMPLETE 5 lug conversion including the M Coupe rear and the '97 M3 front subframe, suspension, and M3 brakes is less than HALF the price of that brake kit......oh yeah, came with a '90 e30 M3 4.10 LSD diff too so subtract what I can sell that for and I'll have pocket change into my entire conversion

Axles can break on a stock E30 from hard drag strip launches. It's not rocket science than these cars were not designed for drag racing from a dig, and the IRS is a limitation.


I'd like to know where you got your information of the newer E36ti/MZ3 being 'updated'. As I stated above, the rear geometry is identical, and the front can be adjusted to be very, very close to the same range of adjustability, depending on what parts/bushings, etc. are used. The only difference is in the rear – the rear trailing arms, and possibly the subframe, are a bit stiffer, proving for less movement of those parts. However, Thomas isn't having that issue either, as his are reinforced quite well (Thanks again Thomas, for doing mine like this as well ).


And no, I don't agree - the E36 chassis itself is more predictable – not the MZ3 or 318ti cars. 325, 328, M3, etc. - the newer, re-designed E36 rear suspension geometry is what makes those cars more predictable, not the ti/MZ3 rear subframe and arms. They are twitchy as well, any differences will be in the chassis, NOT the suspension geometry – because it's the same. Ask ANY MZ3 owner, and they'll tell you the same thing.


You won't get $400 for a small case 4.10, unless you sell it local to a fool. If so – sell mine too, and I'll buy another for what they really cost

[speedminded]

You won't get $400 for a small case 4.10, unless you sell it local to a fool. If so – sell mine too, and I'll buy another for what they really cost

Looks like you're right, i was told the 4.10 rearend w/ axles, etc. from the e30 M3 was worth $500...there's a diff on bimmer forums that's been hit with few broken fins for $300 but the rest are in the $200-250 range. Seem to be going for $300 on dtmpower & e30tech too. As long as I can get a 2.93 LSD out of it I don't care how much it brings!

[kendogg]

Looks like you're right, i was told the 4.10 rearend w/ axles, etc. from the e30 M3 was worth $500...there's a diff on bimmer forums that's been hit with few broken fins for $300 but the rest are in the $200-250 range. Seem to be going for $300 on dtmpower & e30tech too. As long as I can get a 2.93 LSD out of it I don't care how much it brings!

Clarification - E30 M3 is a medium case diff, not a small case, my mistake, I dind't see it was from an M3. This should bring a few mor dollars, but I can't see people paying more than $25-$50 over what a small case would go for.