Carry on campus?

[SampaGuy]

and i CAN see the other side of the argument, but it is fundamentally flawed bc it assumes for ppl that they do not have any sense of SELF RESPONSIBILITY.

Your side of the argument is just as flawed because it assumes that people DO have any sense of self responsability. It assumes that people are always going to have their safety switch on, never going to pull out the gun during times of extreme anger and what not, etc...

and the fact of the matter is, if we start limiting things like where law abiding citizens can legally carry, where does it stop?

What??? If we start limiting? Wasnt there a bill passed allowing people to carry inside restaurants and marta? And now you want to be able to carry inside schools? You tell me, where does it stop?

[81911SC]

Your side of the argument is just as flawed because it assumes that people DO have any sense of self responsability. It assumes that people are always going to have their safety switch on, never going to pull out the gun during times of extreme anger and what not, etc...



What??? If we start limiting? Wasnt there a bill passed allowing people to carry inside restaurants and marta? And now you want to be able to carry inside schools? You tell me, where does it stop?

\
It's not an assumption when it's backed up with facts.

[SampaGuy]

\
It's not an assumption when it's backed up with facts.

So its a fact that people who have their concealed weapons permit never make mistakes and never **** up?

[81911SC]

So its a fact that people who have their concealed weapons permit never make mistakes and never **** up?

Quote me where I said that. You're ignorant as balls if you disagree with my post.

[SampaGuy]

Quote me where I said that. You're ignorant as balls if you disagree with my post.

What did u mean then? What are the facts that prove that everyone has self responsability?

[BlkCD5]

originally posted by JConner
no you would not! People that can get a lisence to carry are not idiots that would shoot some guy because he looked at his girlfriend.

Believe it or not, they're still some college students who are that immature. Jealousy is a *****. Have we forgotten about the high and middle schools as well. Maybe we should allow them to carry as well. Early well known cases started mostly in middle/high school and progressed to colleges.

While it might be safer, I don't see the law getting passed. In most of the cases, they have serious mental baggage and they planned their attack. Also they ended up committing suicide, after their shooting spree. You really think that guy will care if students around him are carrying? More than likely, he'll find the "ideal" place. He's still gonna shoot, even if he gets lit the **** up anyways.

[ShooterMcGavin]

So its a fact that people who have their concealed weapons permit never make mistakes and never **** up?

i would say it's a fact that almost all the ppl that go crazy w/guns DON'T have a legal carry permit.

[GSRteg®]

i would say it's a fact that almost all the ppl that go crazy w/guns DON'T have a legal carry permit.

True

[Jaimecbr900]

Ok, since being "emo" is something people seem to be worried about........


How many teens die every year by their own hand.......DRIVING???? Compare that number to the allegedly astronomical number of suicide with guns by the same age group.

Come back and report so we can see which is more "dangerours".....guns or cars.

What gun control people don't seem to understand is that if you take away the guns from law abiding citizens the only ones left with guns will be the criminals and police. Which one do you think outnumbers which?

Police can't do it alone. Police can't be everywhere all the time. It is and should be up to each of us to initially protect ourselves and others. The ironic thing is that most, if not all, gun owners are willing to save the hide of those same pundits that would love to take away that same gun that may save their life. This is America after all.....

[Jaimecbr900]

Wow! What truly amazes me is that people with such lack of general common sense are allowed to roam free, not only in the halls of said "higher" learning institutions, but down Main Street, U.S.A. I mean this with all sincerity.....some of you REALLY need to NOT reproduce. Seriously.

#1. Police and their departments ARE NOT designed in any way shape or form with the ability, nor more importantly the capabilities to protect EVERYONE at ALL TIMES. It is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY to achieve this. You would need such an astronomically large police force in order to physically have enough police officers roaming the streets to then be in the correct proximity to stop a crime as it is happening. Which begs the LOGICAL question.....WHO exactly is responsible for protecting ME? Answer? YOU. That's it. YOU. The police can help. The police may even be able to stumble upon a scene and prevent some crimes. But the bulk of their job and work go towards RESPONDING to calls AFTER the crime has been committed. So if you're banking on the Police ALONE to somehow protect you from being killed or seriously injured from some random unexpected crime, then you're either A: retarded, or B: have no logic.

#2. CCW holders are NOT police officers. They are merely people who apply the logic from above to their daily lives. They DON'T wait around for police to save their lives. They have a mindset that IF NECESSARY they will protect themselves and maybe others. Do you want to be in the same room with someone like that when some lunatic is walking down a hallway taking human target practice or would you rather just coward under a desk and wait until it's YOUR turn?

#3. Gun ownership has a ton of benefits, one of which is as a deterrent. Criminals, even those that seem like they've lost their minds, steer clear of guns and dogs. Why? Because there are TONS of softer targets for them to hit IF that's their purpose. Do you really think that some kid that's pissed off at the world would walk into that school and start shooting IF he KNEW there was a high possibility the "school" would shoot BACK????? Ummm, NOOOOO is the likely answer.

Let's look at it another way:

Prisoners, as in STILL IN prison, HATE prison life and swear they will "never do it again" WHILE they are IN prison. Judging by the return rate of most prisons, that tune changes the minute their feet hit the outside. Right or wrong? Well, go ask ANYONE that has EVER been SHOT if they would want to be shot again. I'd be willing to bet that short of the occasional wannabe hardas$, 100% of them would say "no". Which do you think is a more powerful deterrent? Now take that and compound it by applying it to a "criminal" who would rather go back to jail than get shot. Still think that prison, police, and getting in trouble are deterrents to these people? Hell no. Getting shot damn sure is though. This is why and how guns deter crime. If YOU had to choose between getting 3 squares and not having to work for a living albeit confined or getting SHOT and possibly being DEAD.....which would YOU choose? Do you think a criminal is any different in that respect?

#4. Why do people think that if you carry a gun you are suddenly and automatically reverted back to the Wild West and become crazed with wanting to shoot everything? That is moronic. I'm willing to bet that most of you that I've met IRL had no clue that I was packing when I met you, yet there is very high possibility that I was. That's the purpose of a CCW. It's not to walk around with two holsters and a bandolier full of shells on your chest. I would much rather stand next to someone that takes a proactive approach to protecting themselves/their family, than stand next to some idiot that happens to run faster than me.....as in, "I don't have to be faster than the bear, just faster than YOU....."

#5. Why do so many of you want to succumb to someone else whose only advantage is that he/she is using a weapon? A gun is nothing more than a weapon.....a tool. It is inanimate. Mere paper weight until it's picked up. Right? So why would anyone coward down to another human being just because they happened to have picked up that tool first???? I'm a firm believer of the addage that says, "don't bring a knife to a gun fight.." If you have the gall to pull out a gun on me, by God you'd better be ready to get shot yourself because that's exactly what's about to happen to you. If not, then put your gun away and move on.

#6. I'm sick and tired of people insinuating that people that carry guns are somehow "paranoid" or "scared" and that is the reason they carry. I'm going to say for the record that I've gotten in more fist fights than 95% of everyone reading this long ass post. So I can say w/o remorse that I'm by far NOT scared to trade lumps with someone. Now only if someone had taught the same things to the CRIMINALS..... Again, refer to #5 above. I'm prepared, NOT scared. There is a difference. BIG difference.

#7. I know LOTS of LEO's. I mean LOTS. I almost became one myself not too long ago. I can attest to the FACT that not all of them are marksmen. So, if you're depending on "police" to somehow come when summoned by some great big "P" being flashed up in the night sky, ala Batman......it's not the way it happens. They are human just like anyone else. They just happen to step up and do a job 99% of us aren't willing to do. Like I said, that's been my calling, so I'm not knocking it at all. I'm just tired of everyone thinking that is the ONLY answer to crime. It's not.


In closing, I'd like for the pundits to think about one thing:

Why do you bother worrying about the person that announces he/she is willing to defend themself when this world is chock full of losers that don't have the guts to? Worry about the coward that plots and schemes to take what belongs to you instead of the person that is willing to HELP you keep it.

[ISAtlanta300]

Wow! What truly amazes me is that people with such lack of general common sense are allowed to roam free, not only in the halls of said "higher" learning institutions, but down Main Street, U.S.A. I mean this with all sincerity.....some of you REALLY need to NOT reproduce. Seriously.

#1. Police and their departments ARE NOT designed in any way shape or form with the ability, nor more importantly the capabilities to protect EVERYONE at ALL TIMES. It is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY to achieve this. You would need such an astronomically large police force in order to physically have enough police officers roaming the streets to then be in the correct proximity to stop a crime as it is happening. Which begs the LOGICAL question.....WHO exactly is responsible for protecting ME? Answer? YOU. That's it. YOU. The police can help. The police may even be able to stumble upon a scene and prevent some crimes. But the bulk of their job and work go towards RESPONDING to calls AFTER the crime has been committed. So if you're banking on the Police ALONE to somehow protect you from being killed or seriously injured from some random unexpected crime, then you're either A: retarded, or B: have no logic.

#2. CCW holders are NOT police officers. They are merely people who apply the logic from above to their daily lives. They DON'T wait around for police to save their lives. They have a mindset that IF NECESSARY they will protect themselves and maybe others. Do you want to be in the same room with someone like that when some lunatic is walking down a hallway taking human target practice or would you rather just coward under a desk and wait until it's YOUR turn?

#3. Gun ownership has a ton of benefits, one of which is as a deterrent. Criminals, even those that seem like they've lost their minds, steer clear of guns and dogs. Why? Because there are TONS of softer targets for them to hit IF that's their purpose. Do you really think that some kid that's pissed off at the world would walk into that school and start shooting IF he KNEW there was a high possibility the "school" would shoot BACK????? Ummm, NOOOOO is the likely answer.

Let's look at it another way:

Prisoners, as in STILL IN prison, HATE prison life and swear they will "never do it again" WHILE they are IN prison. Judging by the return rate of most prisons, that tune changes the minute their feet hit the outside. Right or wrong? Well, go ask ANYONE that has EVER been SHOT if they would want to be shot again. I'd be willing to bet that short of the occasional wannabe hardas$, 100% of them would say "no". Which do you think is a more powerful deterrent? Now take that and compound it by applying it to a "criminal" who would rather go back to jail than get shot. Still think that prison, police, and getting in trouble are deterrents to these people? Hell no. Getting shot damn sure is though. This is why and how guns deter crime. If YOU had to choose between getting 3 squares and not having to work for a living albeit confined or getting SHOT and possibly being DEAD.....which would YOU choose? Do you think a criminal is any different in that respect?

#4. Why do people think that if you carry a gun you are suddenly and automatically reverted back to the Wild West and become crazed with wanting to shoot everything? That is moronic. I'm willing to bet that most of you that I've met IRL had no clue that I was packing when I met you, yet there is very high possibility that I was. That's the purpose of a CCW. It's not to walk around with two holsters and a bandolier full of shells on your chest. I would much rather stand next to someone that takes a proactive approach to protecting themselves/their family, than stand next to some idiot that happens to run faster than me.....as in, "I don't have to be faster than the bear, just faster than YOU....."

#5. Why do so many of you want to succumb to someone else whose only advantage is that he/she is using a weapon? A gun is nothing more than a weapon.....a tool. It is inanimate. Mere paper weight until it's picked up. Right? So why would anyone coward down to another human being just because they happened to have picked up that tool first???? I'm a firm believer of the addage that says, "don't bring a knife to a gun fight.." If you have the gall to pull out a gun on me, by God you'd better be ready to get shot yourself because that's exactly what's about to happen to you. If not, then put your gun away and move on.

#6. I'm sick and tired of people insinuating that people that carry guns are somehow "paranoid" or "scared" and that is the reason they carry. I'm going to say for the record that I've gotten in more fist fights than 95% of everyone reading this long ass post. So I can say w/o remorse that I'm by far NOT scared to trade lumps with someone. Now only if someone had taught the same things to the CRIMINALS..... Again, refer to #4 above. I'm prepared, NOT scared. There is a difference. BIG difference.

#7. I know LOTS of LEO's. I mean LOTS. I almost became one myself not too long ago. I can attest to the FACT that not all of them are marksmen. So, if you're depending on "police" to somehow come when summoned by some great big "P" being flashed up in the night sky, ala Batman......it's not the way it happens. They are human just like anyone else. They just happen to step up and do a job 99% of us aren't willing to do. Like I said, that's been my calling, so I'm not knocking it at all. I'm just tired of everyone thinking that is the ONLY answer to crime. It's not.


In closing, I'd like for the pundits to think about one thing:

Why do you bother worrying about the person that announces he/she is willing to defend themself when this world is chock full of losers that don't have the guts to? Worry about the coward that plots and schemes to take what belongs to you instead of the person that is willing to HELP you keep it.

Jaime, you are my bro and you make some very good points.

However, I am going to play a bit of devil's advocate here.

This is another example of trying to tackle a problem with another problem. There are wacko's with gun on campus. So let's give everyone a gun and let them carry. Isn't the real problem the wacko with the gun in the first place? I think it would be far more effective keeping the wacko off-campus to begin with. There are a lot of measures we can take i.e. Metal detectors, increased security, increased pat-downs, dogs.. yes... i know.. it sounds a bit over the top, but ever been flying lately? Is there a reason they won't let passengers carry on plane's ONLY US marshalls (and some pilots)?

This whole debate rests on a lot of assumptions: Assumptions that ALL licensed gun carriers would be able to stop the thread point blank with one-shot, one kill. that all carriers are totally CAPABLE of knowing their weapons and extensively trained in proper usage. That ALL carriers are mentally stable enough to warrant them carrying a deadly device. That ALL carriers can exersice enough control when going friday night binge drinking not to pull out their weapon because someone called them Cracker or the N* word. That all carriers would remember to put the safety on at all times to prevent accidental discharges.

And everyone assumes the 'Hero' scenario where the good kid with a gun will take the bad guy in class and save the day. I think the real world scenario would be quite different. No one knows how you would react in such situation unless you actually find yourself in one. I predict a lot of kids running would get shot by stray bullets rather than by the wacko himself.

Now it does not mean I am against guns or against carrying. I just think that there is a time and place to have a weapon, and other areas who should remain 'off-limits. But of course, it seems we can have neither. most campusus don't provide appropriate measures to ensure a student's safety, so it is up to the individual to defend himself.

I just think issues like these should be carefully evaluated, as it is not as easy a 'yes' or 'no' solution as it seems.

[ShooterMcGavin]

it's always hard to follow up one of jaime's posts, as he has a way of taking words right out of your mouth. but i would like to just throw a few more points onto some of what he's already said. with regards to:

#1 apparently ppl here have never heard of the Peelian Principles, which are the basic foundation of modern policing.

1) The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

2) The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.

3) Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

4) The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

5) Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

6) Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.

7) Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

8) Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

9) The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.



#3 absolutely, i've said it once and i'll say it a million times more, there's a VERY good reason why shootings happen in schools, malls, restaurants as opposed to a gun store or a gun range!



#4 wild wild west mentality or not, if you allowed guns EVERYWHERE today to those who had a concealed carry permit, i will openly admit there's a great chance that some of those idiots will blast off and do something stupid. however, i guarantee you that those idiots will quickly kill each other off bc the simple fact of the matter is, an idiot with a gun is still an idiot.

[ShooterMcGavin]

What??? If we start limiting? Wasnt there a bill passed allowing people to carry inside restaurants and marta? And now you want to be able to carry inside schools? You tell me, where does it stop?

that bill was passed but has NOT been signed into law. not to mention we are hardly the first state to allow carry into such places.

what i refer to is the liberals that would sooner do away w/the 2nd amendment than anything else. "leaders" such as our great mayor who was just quoted yesterday saying:

“The presumption has to be, if this bill passes, that there are concealed weapons by people who just might get mad with them,” Franklin said. “The presumption needs to be, in order to have a safe city, that there are no concealed weapons. And only those who are acting criminally might have them.”