What results can i get with a fully built z6 block and fully built d15 vtec head. Low 12 sec passes or lower. In a gutted cx hatch
Fully Built D16
What results can i get with a fully built z6 block and fully built d15 vtec head. Low 12 sec passes or lower. In a gutted cx hatch
i dont hink you will get any 12 sec pass, but wait for higher knowledge to chime in, this is just from "theoretically" thinking.Originally Posted by swolejamaica
i dont "think" u can make more(or too much more / or maybe not even) 200whp out of it..maybe though...
a fast all motor d series would eb sleepr though
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Might wanna run a f22 motor.. search bisi eziroisadglsflng or however u spell his last name
just do a boosted d.....all motor d wont give you the performance that you expect
FUCK B&D COMMUNICATIONS!
230 ish is possible about of them....
you will just need decide if this will be a street car or straight up drag car.
to get around 200 you will need to do pretty much everything possible and from there it's just buckets of money. 150-160 whp is quite easy to get out of them. and from there it gets more and more expensive. custom ITB's, form of engine management system, really good exhaust , extentsive head work / valve work and not just some hack job, probably matched cam, bored out block with lightened / balanced everything, and then ALOT of little odds and ends that must be needed.
heres some ideas though if you want like 80% stock parts.
bottom end
If you live in an area where 93/94 octane gas is not available, your best bet is to try to keep your compression below 12:1, in fact between to 11.5-11:1 would be ideal. The piston i prefer for all setups is the p29 from 88-89 Integra d16a1. This piston is also found under the pm7 designation in the Japanese DOHC ZC. The reason i like it is because i know it works for all setups; there are no valve relief issues re: big cams, head configuration, etc. The catch with this piston is it has a lot of dome, so you will need to tailor your compression ratio by using assorted headgasket thicknesses. This selection depends on some things-
1. Fuel quality/availability
2. Head; the z6 head combustion chamber is larger than the y8 head, enough that, all else equal, the y8 head can raise the compression ratio approximately 1/2 point vs. a z6 head.
These suggestions are assuming you have close to a stock surface level head…meaning unmilled or no more than .010 milled. If you have more than that milled, you need to adjust the headgasket choice accordingly using one of the reliable d-series compression calculators available. The headgaskets I suggest are OE Honda metal 3-layer, A’pexi 1.1mm (.043”) PN 814-h101, A’pexi 1.5mm (.059”) PN 814-h102, or Greddy 2mm (.079”)
Some baseline configurations…(ratios are approximate static compression, assuming stock bore and unmilled head)
- y8 head w/ 91 octane – 2mm HG – 11.2:1 CR
- y8 head w/ 93-94 oct – 1.5mm HG – 11:8 CR
- z6 head w/ 91 octane – 1.5mm HG – 11.3:1 CR
- z6 head w/ 93-94 oct - .037 OE HG – 12:1 CR
Please note: some of the 93/94 setups have more room for compression, so another .010 off of the head through milling would be ideal. Typically, a .5 overbore will add approx. 1/10 a point of compression. My ideal bottom end for this setup is composed of all stock components. The stock rods are capable and rather lightweight pieces which should be at minimum shot-peened, a process that is cheap and adds strength. I would even feel safe at 200whp if these rods were shot-peened and cryogenically treated, which is a deep-freezing process that even strengthens them further. A popular upgrade is installing ARP rod bolts. This stems from the fact that a high-compression D with a big cam needs some more revs than stock, and with a 90mm stroke, the stresses on the rod bolts are incredible. I recommend all new bearings, Honda OE pieces, color/ number matched to the crank and at minimum plastigauged. Cylinder treatment is up to you- I personally like to over-bore to 75.5mm…any added displacement helps a 1.6L. Nippon Manufacturing offers 76mm cast p29 pistons, however, I do not agree with going that big overbore. I believe there is a reason Honda offers a max .5mm overbore, and that is with a stock engine! At any rate, over-bore is not necessary: 75mm is more readily available used and boring cost additional dollars. Honda recommends that if there are no score marks and cross-hatch is visible, do not hone, however, I recommend to at the least check cylinders for ovalling and hone per Honda’s bore/hone specs. Honda OE rings are wonderful. Stock wrist pins are fine, but I suggest using new ones. Make sure that the piston tops are smooth: the better the polished surface, the less chance for detonation. Balance the entire bottom end to 10,000 rpm. I feel compelled to mention that there has been talk about the y8 oil pumps being inferior re: oil supply vs. z6. I have used y8 oil pump with not one issue of such starvation, however, if you prefer, manufacturer TOGA offers a higher volume oil pump for this application.
Head
People bicker about which head is supreme, however, I suggest using the head that is easiest to adapt to your chassis. If you have an EK, run a y8 head, if you have an EF/EG, run a z6 head. Whatever is easier. Besides the combustion chamber size differences, the shape of the chambers are different. The y8 chamber offers better resistance to detonation due to it having more quench area; part of the reason they made the CC smaller was to fit these areas. Make sure that all edges of the CC are smooth to prevent hot spots. Another performance difference is the ports. A z6 head has straight ports called tumble ports and a y8 head has off-set ports called swirl ports. Without getting too crazy describing them, the tumble ports can promote the best top end and the swirl port can offer better low rpm torque and better mixture and MPG with the right tune. A requirement for high-horsepower NA is porting. You NEED to have a properly ported head to eclipse 150 whp. Even a mild-port job will suffice, however, the more extravagant the porting, the more power potential. The cam to use is the Crower Stage 3 cam, hands down. Regrinds are limited (amongst other things) and other fresh billet cams are just not optimized the way the Crower profile is. It has the most advanced profile for these engines and offers the broadest power band. Again, this cam requires porting to be effective, and also you must install valve springs and Ti retainers, Crower. I use new stock keepers, however, you may feel inclined to use performance branded ones. Their Ti compound is very resistant to wear. An adjustable cam gear is necessary for tuning, I find that Crower Cams do not need incredible adjustment, however, please noteL there is a difference between z6 and y8 cam gears. The only cam gear I recommend is AEM. They have the difference between the keyways of the z6 and y8 nailed. Many manufacturers DO NOT! New OE timing belt is fine. OE valves are fine. A 3 angle valve job will assure consistent seat seal. I use OE Honda head bolts, however, they can only be used once so if you want to, ARP head studs are ideal for those of you who like to take the head on and off. Make sure to contact ARP for their recommendations on which combination or kit to get…block and head configurations cover a vast array of different ARP sets. I recommend using HYLOMAR spray gasket coating by Permatex. It is hard to find, but I do know that AEBS in CA sells it and some parts stores can special order it. Torque the head as per stock specs or ARP specs, however, if you are using an extension, remember to compensate by adding 5 ft/lbs or so on the wrench!
bolt-ons
I recommend a smooth-tract tube cold-air intake of 3” diameter. It provides a nice torque hump at low rpm and also offers access to more dense air. An upgraded throttle body is optimum, 62-65mm are popular options. The intake manifold is very important. My favorite is the Skunk2 offering. It is cheap and works well and has a 62mm ID TB bore. There have been issues with quality control with the entire Skunk2 line, however, several Skunk2 intake manifolds (h22, b20, sohc) were manufactured in factories with good QC so the risks are low. I have had no issues with mine nor has AgentJam. Fitment is poor in an EG, and really tight in an EF (but doable). EK fitment is fine, however, some adjustment will have to be done to a few brackets on the firewall. If you have an EG, I might suggest the Edelbrock unit. It is expensive, but is superior to any OE manifold. I do not know about adapting a tube cold air to it, since that manifold has a unique angle for the throttle body. Port-matching is ideal for this manifold to your head, however, I did not see a need for it with my particular setup. Inspect yours to see if the path of runner-gasket-port is smooth.
Header SMSP, BISI, RAGE, etc, these headers are not cheap. The exhaust is up to you, I just would make sure there are no sudden restrictions or dips in inside diameter. I prefer a 2.25 ID. Not having a cat is ideal, however, SMSP and others offer some high performance functioning catalysts if you can get away with that in your area. An ignition is not necessary, however, i feel it helps. A multiple spark unit with external coil assures complete combustion and spark survival in the storm of high-compression cylinder conditions. I prefer either NGK wires or Nology Hotwires (if you have the money). Both work fine, however, I have found various small improvements in a few areas with the Hotwires. Dyno sheets with these will be coming soon vs. NGK. Stock rotor is fine with an MSD Cap. MSD now offers performance rotors, this might be something to consider.
tuning
To assure your build doesn’t die from a dying fuel pump, I recommend an upgrade to a 255lph fuel pump from Walbro. Yeah, it’s overkill, but it cost the same as the 190lph and is not any less reliable, so just get it. A new fuel pump is a wonderful thing. Stock injectors are perfect for this build, provided they are not dirty. Most of the smaller displacement 1.6-.8 Honda injectors are 240cc. The lone exception is d16y7 injectors are 190cc, so do not use these. Your best bet is to send the 240’s you choose to RC Engineering to get them balanced and flowed. Fuel pressure regulator upgrade is recommended, even though you will have a tuneable ecu. The reason is optimum atomization occurs @ 55psi with these Honda injectors, which is a significant amount over stock spec. I got this information from SOHC VTEC legend Nathan Tasukon who did extensive testing with his company Motec. I like the on-rail AEM unit as it is perfect. It’s got a reliable diaphragm, and adjustable return orifices, meaning you won’t have issues with the big fuel pump like you would if you used a modified stock FPR (like the Vortech, B&M, Hayame, etc). The spark plugs to use are NGK bkr6e-11 or 7e-11. The heat range depends on a few things. If you are running the lower tier compression levels (<11.5:1), then a 6 should be fine year-round. If you are in the higher compression bracket, then you might want to run a 6 in cold weather and a 7 in hotter weather; that is what I do. To get the target NA power levels, obd1 conversion is necessary due to its extensive tuning capabilities, unless you are using an obd2 adaptable engine management like A’pexi Power FC or AEM EMS. The Power FC is an incredible value for what it offers. On-board parameter monitoring, knock monitor, etc & light adjustments via the in-cabin commander, with deep tuning capability via PC. It also features a very powerful idle stability feature which keeps the wild Crower 3 cam stable in all idle conditions. Some viable tuning options are Neptune, Hondata, Uberdata, etc. It has come to pass that RPM switches, VAFC, E-Manage, Z-Dyne, etc are not practical options for this type of setup. Full tuning range is required, both timing, fuel, and various other parameters where stock settings will not suffice. A capable tuner on a eddy-current type dyno is ideal for max power tuning, while still being able to tune other than full-throttle throttle positions/ vacuum levels.
hope it helps... got some of this off of another site and then editted to what i feel needed to be added.
-CJ
Thanks alot 4 info!!!
are u gonna d othe all motor d16?
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
unless you are going to run a custom crankshaft and run the car on alcohol with 14:1 compression you probably will not see 12's at all. Good luck, it's definately a project that no one else is doing, and for good reason.
cause 12secs is like 11k worth of work
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
it would be WAY cheaper just to do like everybody else and build a LS/VTEC or something like that. Like everyone else has said, 220whp (which is what you will need to run 12's) is going to cost you like ten grand. You can build a good LS/VTEC for like $4000 and it will make more power.
Land Rover LR3 HSE
Thats the problem everybody uses twin cams nobody tries the single... I want to try to get it into the 12s all motor.. If i cant with a fully built single then ill use nitrous. Dont really want to though. What numbers should i be getting with a fully built z6. The block is at my house right now. Bored .20 over wiesco high compression pistons. JE rods and wiesco rings and locking pins. Crank was knife edged, balanced and blueprinted.
you need to talk to Bisi.. that dude can build a freakin D. I know alot of what i know about it from him . before the F he ran the D and could get down into the 11's and i believe faster. your going to have to have a VERY light car though.
-CJ
the last D series NA motor that came through here that made over 190whp, blew up 20 dynos later. Impressive motor, but they are PURPOSE BUILT RACE MOTORS, they do NOT last.
150-160whp D series is a STRONG NA motor with TONS of work and money in it, and it wont go 12s.
you could just buy a GSR an have the same power out of a STOCK MOTOR an it would probably cost WAY less.
Or
Turbo the D series an pwn everyone.
NA d series is cool for a race car. Call BIsi, i suspect his motors run $10,000-15,000
there is a reason why everyone runs DOHC
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IMO , if you want to be cheap, do Rods, Pistons, and put a 250shot on it
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^^^ ahahha like me i gotta put nos on mine lol
project- boost coming soon!
^^^ thats the only way it will get into the 12's...
Land Rover LR3 HSE
OK.....well i guess ill put it in a crx gutt it out and 100shot or just sell the block. i have a d series on boost already but its at 8psi on stock internals and tuned on hondata. about to sell it!!!lol
allmotor D16 is not the way to go but i went 1250s on 190whp 170trq i got 12 passes on it and it blew up i had more fun and less money in D turbo--- the d that blew up at mainstream was a fully built motor had every thing you could put in it -- it was built by rs machine it has bisi cam-head-header it will be forsale if you are interested i am going to fix the motor and it will go 12s scott tuned he is a very good tuner thanks for all the help
i didnt want to say it was you lol.
but yeah i cant beleive those numbers, thats CRAZZY! but i suspect those motors are only made to last that long.
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Mr.2jzkidd,
but if you think those numbers are crazy then you need to look up some JG motors , bisi, endyn, etc. most have broken 200 and ive seen some motors that are all out motors in the mid 200's.
-CJ
yes thay are shop cars thay did not have to spend any money i only have $3500 in this motor with a little help from bisi he gave me the cam and i made that power with 96-97vtec mani it was not with carbs like everybody else
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