Thinking of starting a new project, what engine should I use?

**allmotoronly** · 09-27-2006, 09:09 PM

Ok guys, I am thinking of starting a new project. Chassis will be a 99-00 civic coupe. As for the engine, I have not made up my mind on anything yet. B-series, H-series, F20B, K-series.... All have ups and downs. My budget on the engine should be about $4k. I like the B-series engines and H series engines, but for some reason I am not very fond of the K-Series... I guess I'm too old school for i-VTEC. Also I am MUCH more familiar with the B/H series. I have always wanted to swap a JDM accord SiR-T F20B (200HP, 142tq, 7450rpm redline, 1997 cc) into a civic chassis. It is about the same price as the H22A and has some advantages over the H22A. One being that it has steel sleeves, not FRM. Another is that the head is almost the exact same as the JDM H22A type S engine. Also it has a 88mm stroke (90.7mm in a H22A), which means it has high rev capabilities. It has a 85mm bore (H22A has 87mm). Together, these measurements allow the engine to rev higher while having the same piston speed as a H22A. At about 7400rpm the F20B pistons are travelling as fast as a H22A at 8000 rpm. It doesnt sound like a lot but the cylinders will wear less at the same rpm as a H22A. I have seen these engines pull 9k rpm in stock form with different valvesprings all day long. I know these same specs are possible (and probably easier) with a B-series, but everybody has a B-Series these days, and my big plan is to do something that you don't see a lot. I have done the H22A thing a few times. I like it, but the piston rings are shit. Let me know what you guys think.

**CSquared** · 09-27-2006, 09:41 PM

Other: LS1

**2.0civic** · 09-27-2006, 09:42 PM

turbo d series or GSR...type r will kill your budget

**2.0civic** · 09-27-2006, 09:43 PM

or a b20 with room left for good mods

**allmotoronly** · 09-27-2006, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by CRAMERIZKING

Other: LS1

uhhh good luck getting that to fit in a civic. besides... LS1's are slow and weak compared to what I have in my other car... REAL muscle.

**allmotoronly** · 09-27-2006, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by b18hatch

turbo d series or GSR...type r will kill your budget

the GSR engine will run me about $2500... for that I can have an H-series or the F20B... why would you go with the B18C1?

BTW... using a D-series never crossed my mind. SOHC=boring.... I am addicted to 3 rocker VTEC.

**dwnsthGABOY** · 09-29-2006, 05:35 PM

K20a FTW, my second choice would be a jdm gsr motor, but u are right everbody does have a b series engine and hopefully in a few weeks I'll become one of those ppl. LOL!!!

H22a>h22a4, but H22a type-s owns both of those.

**aaronfelipe** · 09-29-2006, 05:39 PM

K24.

**allmotoronly** · 09-29-2006, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by dwnsthGABOY

K20a FTW, my second choice would be a jdm gsr motor, but u are right everbody does have a b series engine and hopefully in a few weeks I'll become one of those ppl. LOL!!!

H22a>h22a4, but H22a type-s owns both of those.

yea I had a H22A SiR S-Spec, which is a type S engine with a LSD tranny instead of the ATTS tranny. it was hard as shit to find though...

**N/A EK** · 09-29-2006, 09:41 PM

H22A S-Spec or Euro-R 220hp

**allmotoronly** · 09-29-2006, 10:14 PM

I prefer the Euro-R engine over the type S due its subtle differences. The cams in the euro are not quite as hot as the type S, but the euro-r intake manifold more than makes up for it. I have seen a euro-r engine with type S cams put down around 210whp, which is probably about 235 fwhp or so. The euro-r tranny is a lot better than the ATTS type S tranny which is identical to a USDM prelude SH tranny. Most people think the jdm type S engine and the Euro-R engine are the same, but the cams and intake manifolds are different. the bottom end has the same specs though.

**§treet_§peed** · 10-01-2006, 11:21 PM

D SERIES FTMW YO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**§treet_§peed** · 10-01-2006, 11:29 PM

here's a few suggestions...

**§treet_§peed** · 10-01-2006, 11:30 PM

either a EV1, C32A, SR20Dett, 2JZGTE, or 351 Windser (sp?)...

**HalfBaked** · 10-01-2006, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by §treet_§peed

SR20Dett

DAMN AN SR20DETT?!

TWIN TURBO SR20?

HELL YA!

TWIN TURBO 4 CYL FOR THE WIN!

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 12:55 AM

I'm always partial to h22a type S and the spec S along with the F20B.

I say go with the F20B!

**R_Rated** · 10-02-2006, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by HalfBaked

DAMN AN SR20DETT?!

TWIN TURBO SR20?

HELL YA!

TWIN TURBO 4 CYL FOR THE WIN!

with a good set of headers!

i'm glad I read before replying.... I was going to crack the SR20 joke!.... maybe he should go RB!

**allmotoronly** · 10-02-2006, 07:19 AM

ok I'm pretty sure none of those will fit into a civic chassis without extensive modifications which I do NOT want to do...

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by allmotoronly

I prefer the Euro-R engine over the type S due its subtle differences. The cams in the euro are not quite as hot as the type S, but the euro-r intake manifold more than makes up for it. I have seen a euro-r engine with type S cams put down around 210whp, which is probably about 235 fwhp or so. The euro-r tranny is a lot better than the ATTS type S tranny which is identical to a USDM prelude SH tranny. Most people think the jdm type S engine and the Euro-R engine are the same, but the cams and intake manifolds are different. the bottom end has the same specs though.

yep... I concour with this you man...

here is another choice to consider. the prelude SIR spec S. Same damn engine as the type s but has a single runner intake manifold as the euro r. The only damn reason this engine doesn't beat the type s engine in performance is because it didn't get the 2.25" exhaust system from factory like the type s did. sir spec S tranny is also the same as the usdm sh/base and jdm type s. The only difference is that the T2W4 sir spec S tranny has LSD; unlike the type s and sh bullshit electronic shit that only kicks in when your pretty much going to die if you don't hug a corner at full throttle at high speeds. I can't wait to get rid of in a couple of days

...

^^^disregard all of this... I just read that you already had the sir spec s engine....

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 02:32 PM

GSR, with $4000 you can do a GSR with cams, clutch, mount kit, more if you shop around.

H22s might be "better" for the money, but they have:
1) Shit transmissions when it comes to GEARING
2) They dont have as much aftermarket support
3) They are VERY inconsistent, some make 155whp, some make 175whp stock.
4) Cam choices suck, except for PRO series from SKunk2 IMO
5) Cable shifters, require ALOT more wiring and fab work to fit in a civic
6) Emissions NEARLY impossible if you care about it

GSR, best motor for the buck hands down.

If you plan on doing the work yourself, id prob get an ITR motor, for the Tranny and the cams. Its the best motor to have if you plan on doing NOTHING to it, ask Tom aka b18C5_eh2. He has had his ITR for more than 5 years, an ran 13.2s in it, BONE STOCK motor. He also has quite a few kills includnig an h22 EG that made 193whp

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 02:37 PM

Mike do you mind posting some gear ratios so we can compare?

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 02:38 PM

sure

H22 Gear Ratios=SHIT
GSR=Better

**BTEC** · 10-02-2006, 02:39 PM

GSR

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 02:39 PM

lol... I want numbers.....

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 02:50 PM

for example:
92-96 vtec prelude tranny gearing:
1st: 3.307
2nd: 1.950
3rd: 1.360
4th: 1.034
5th: 0.787

Final drive:
4.266.

just want you to prove your point. I've heard that and have yet to see a gearing chart for b series so here is your chance to prove that the gearing is indeed better.

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 02:52 PM

honda-tech.com has the gear ratios

Or PM skunked on HT and ask him how switching to a GSR tranny on his H22 netted him a .4 second faster time CONSISTENTLY over his H22 tranny in the 1/4 mile

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 03:04 PM

mike it depends on what tranny... I'm looking at a chart here with about 10 different tranny that can bolt to the h22 motor. most guys that swap h22's into hatches or whatever, almost 95% or more of them have m2a4 or a m2f4 or the m2y4 trannies which are not racing trannies IMO. which I agree with you are SHIT! But if they ever tried T2T4 or U2Q4 or T2WA (and a couple of other's I won't list) it more than likely would be a different story...

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 03:14 PM

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1475661

READ and LEARN

H22 tranny
12.62's at 107mph

With GSR TRANNY
12.23@112mph
12.28@114mph

Only mod he did was switch to a STOCK GEARED GSR tranny, he picked up .4 in the quarter along with 5-7mph trap speed.

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 03:26 PM

Like I stated in my last post. He had the wrong gearing tranny. The tranny he has is the same tranny gearing I actually posted a few post back. post numbers of a gsr tranny and I'll post one of a more respectable tranny for the H. don't reply by say pm somebody because you made a statement so back it up. I Want to see gearing numbers.

I like I said in my last post... 95% of the poeple with h22 swaps have a forth gen prelude tranny.

Post gearing numbers for gzzer and the type r and we can have a discussion. I really could care less if in the end the gearing of which is better. I don't think its fare for you or anybody else to say h22 tranny = shit when you are comparing a regular h tranny to a gzzer or type r when there are at least 5 other h trannies with better gearing than can be found; just rare to come across. post the gearing and I'll post the gearing of the top notch h's and we can take it from there....

T.E.L.

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 03:33 PM

why do i have to do all the reasearch for you? i know the answer cause i have DRIVEN, BUILT , RODE in cars with all kinds of different combos. Since you think there are these RARE H22 trannys out there that are SO MUCH better, please, feel free to teach me something, im all ears. Why do i have to come up with all the info? if you think your teaching me or telling me something i dont already know, please, ive built plenty of NA cars, my last B SERIES 2.0l made 237whp, highest in the state still to this day.

The reason people have those trannys is because they are READILY AVAILABLE. If theres some EURO-R spec S JDM SIRG tranny out there that is better than anything ever made, please locate me one, and let me know how much it costs.

Bottom line is if you want EASE of swap, MASS market of parts that WORK, endless room to grow, Tons of OEM interchanability from trannys , pistons, timing belts, cams, BETTER GEARING OPTIONS

GSR/ITR>H22

H22s can make good power, but i only reccomend them if you KNOW what you are doing, and are competent in what it takes to do the swap, wiring, and what it takes to make them make power. but like i said, in the end, the tranny is always your weak link.

THE ONLY H22 ON IA THAT REMOTELY IMPRESSES ME IS GOINFASTERTHANU, a STOCK h22 with bolt ons making 19xwhp. Other than that, im not impressed with the H series at all.

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 03:41 PM

lol why you getting defensive? Who asked you to do research? Aren't Mr. B series? I thought you could've given me a quick gearing ratio of the top of your head I guess not.

you made a statement I said to back it up that's all. it was a perfect oppertunity for you to shine and your backing down?

Don't worry... those rare trannies you want to see... I'll drive my car to your shop in a couple of weeks and you can see one...

Didn't know you would've gotten so defensive. I thought forums were for debates but I guess not...

I already know how you feel about h series. in fact when it comes to honda I feel the same about b series. i don't have anything against that. I just want to post gearing ratios so we can compare... I'm not trying to bump heads with you guy... Just want something to compare thats all. jeez...

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ludester

lol why you getting defensive? Who asked you to do research? Aren't Mr. B series? I thought you could've given me a quick gearing ratio of the top of your head I guess not.

you made a statement I said to back it up that's all. it was a perfect oppertunity for you to shine and your backing down?

You want me to argue things that have already been argued on this board 20,000,0000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.04 times already.

Opportunity to shine? HAHA, i dont need to spit out gear ratios to "shine". Sometimes, i expect people to take a little work on themselves, do a little reasearch, come up with their own ideas. I dont have to post the answer to everything, matter of fact i rarely post in the tech forums anymore unless i see a lot of misinformation being thrown around, like i see in this thread.

If you want to challenge yourself, go look up Gear vs Gear, FD vs FD, and feel free to expound on it. Tell me why a GSR or ITR tranny, or even a B16 tranny is better than an H22 in all motor, why would you want to have a horter gear, and when does it become too short? remember GEARING vs RPM as well as thats a direct coorelation.

my only point was that the B series transmission are more setup for ALL MOTOR than the H22. You want me to GIVE you info, i dont think i need to. You said that the H22 trannys were better, and there are RARE transmissions that are better than B series, PROVE it, post up about it man. Im sure if you are making this arguement you have the info to prove me wrong.

**allmotoronly** · 10-02-2006, 04:06 PM

thanks for the imput guys!

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 04:12 PM

OK heres a HINT of INFO:

My CRX had a 187whp GSR motor in it:
PR3 pistons
Stock Rods
Rocket Motorsport M22X cams
ANR header

My CRX Weighed 2172 WITHOUT ME IN IT, so i weigh 200lbs. thats almost 2400lbs.

ON STREET TIRES (kuhmo HP4 passenger tires) i ran 13.8@103mph with a 2.0 60ft

ACCORDM3 has 227whp H22, with H22 Trans. ON SLICKS AND DRAG RADIALS he is running 13.4-13.8s trapping 103mph. His car prob weighs a good 100lbs less than my old CRX.

so i made 40whp less, 30TQ less with a heavier car an trapped the same speed. what does that tell you? he needs a better geared tranny an i guarantee he would be deep in the 13s if not high 12s, with 107-108 trap

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. 2JZKIDD

You want me to argue things that have already been argued on this board 20,000,0000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.04 times already.

Opportunity to shine? HAHA, i dont need to spit out gear ratios to "shine". Sometimes, i expect people to take a little work on themselves, do a little reasearch, come up with their own ideas. I dont have to post the answer to everything, matter of fact i rarely post in the tech forums anymore unless i see a lot of misinformation being thrown around, like i see in this thread.

If you want to challenge yourself, go look up Gear vs Gear, FD vs FD, and feel free to expound on it. Tell me why a GSR or ITR tranny, or even a B16 tranny is better than an H22 in all motor, why would you want to have a horter gear, and when does it become too short? remember GEARING vs RPM as well as thats a direct coorelation.

my only point was that the B series transmission are more setup for ALL MOTOR than the H22. You want me to GIVE you info, i dont think i need to. You said that the H22 trannys were better, and there are RARE transmissions that are better than B series, PROVE it, post up about it man. Im sure if you are making this arguement you have the info to prove me wrong.

amen... you are right I have done the research already.. but I was hoping you could prove me wrong lol. I don't want to prove anybody wrong. I want a discussion about the two series of tranny so that people can make there own decisions vs listening to what someone says. People respond to RAW fact better than they do opinion one would think.

challenge myself? lol i could care less why I b16 or a gzzr or type r tranny is better. Remember i feel the same way about b series as you do h series so i don't care. I'm looking for raw facts not opinion. The guy you posted about from h-t I'm well aware of him but you have to consider that the tranny he was using did not even have lsd(4th gen vtec); but his gzzr tranny did LSD. ofcourse your going to run a faster 1/4 time based on that alone. so that is not an empiracle fact because all things were not equal...

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ludester

The guy you posted about from h-t I'm well aware of him but you have to consider that the tranny he was using did not even have lsd(4th gen vtec); but his gzzr tranny did LSD. ofcourse your going to run a faster 1/4 time based on that alone. so that is not an empiracle fact because all things were not equal...

ahhhh but if you run big enough slicks, A differential does not matter.

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. 2JZKIDD

OK heres a HINT of INFO:

My CRX had a 187whp GSR motor in it:
PR3 pistons
Stock Rods
Rocket Motorsport M22X cams
ANR header

My CRX Weighed 2172 WITHOUT ME IN IT, so i weigh 200lbs. thats almost 2400lbs.

ON STREET TIRES (kuhmo HP4 passenger tires) i ran 13.8@103mph with a 2.0 60ft

ACCORDM3 has 227whp H22, with H22 Trans. ON SLICKS AND DRAG RADIALS he is running 13.4-13.8s trapping 103mph. His car prob weighs a good 100lbs less than my old CRX.

so i made 40whp less, 30TQ less with a heavier car an trapped the same speed. what does that tell you? he needs a better geared tranny an i guarantee he would be deep in the 13s if not high 12s, with 107-108 trap

but it still falls back on what tranny they were using (speaking of the guys with h22's that your referring to above).
I can almost garauntee you most people with a h22 swap have a forth gen vtec tranny. Which I do agree with you they are shit for n/a. H has way better trannies out there. Like i posted above eariler I'll try drive my car to MS in a couple of weeks and you can look at a t2W4 tranny.

You also have to factory driving skills. No saying that the guys with the h22's can't drive and your better driver out of all of them. Not to mention I doubt these times you posted all things were equal. Same day/temp/track/driver fatigue/ etc.. etc...

All I asked was for you to post up a gear of the gzzr tranny and would post one of the better trannies for the H so we could compare...

T.E.L.

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by allmotoronly

thanks for the imput guys!

go with the f20b man.... it has a high rev capability and has room for improvements.... your one step ahead of me if you do this cause the f20b is going to be my next project. Since they can be found for right around $1500.

**Ludester** · 10-02-2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. 2JZKIDD

ahhhh but if you run big enough slicks, A differential does not matter.

big enough slicks??? what does that have to do with gearing ratio of a gsr and gear ratio of a more racing h series tranny?

Not a thing.... post a gear ratio....

**Vteckidd** · 10-02-2006, 04:40 PM

Trans Code T2T4
1: 3.285
2: 1.956
3: 1.344
4: 1.034
5: 0.787
Final Drive 4.266

GSR Tranny
1: 3.230
2: 1.900
3: 1.360
4: 1.034
5: 0.787
Final Drive 4.4

B16 Tranny
1: 3.307
2: 2.105
3: 1.458
4: 1.107
5: 0.848
Final Drive 4.4

T2T4 is a decent geared tranny, but still has a 4.2 FD and a longer 3rd gear vs the GSR. B16 tranny destroys the F20B trans everywhere.

Now, FIND ME A F20B SIR ACCORD TRANNY, find me a place i can buy one tomrrow. Cause i can make a phone call and get 10 /B16GSR trannys if i need to.

Advantage, GSR/B16

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