When We Talk About Honda, Let's Be Honest

[Nerdsrock22]

So for whatever reason, I woke up at like 6 this morning thinking about the Honda/Acura brand. Nerdy? yes Important? Yes.

Frankly I hate where Honda and Acura are headed. The list of "desirable" cars being put out by the two is dropping.

1. The Insight
Complete half-ass attempt in my book. I understand their goal was to produce the cheapest hybrid, but frankly it just falls short on the quality. With an EPA estimate of around 43 mpg, a careful Fit driver could do just as well, for thousands less. Now, I would never consider buying an Insight no matter how good, but that leads us to the next point.

2. The CR-Z
Honda's new sport oriented hybrid scares me. While I understand the point, the idea of a barely sub-10 second 2-seater hardly stirs the pot, especially for what will probably amount to $25k.

3. The Civic Si
The next gen Civic worries me as well. With all the talk about hybrid this, and green that, I'm worried where the Si will end up. And even now, the car is long overdue for an overhaul. I mean, we've been able to buy a 200-hp K20 with a six-speed for around $20k since 2002.

4. The Newly Announced Sub-TSX Acura
I have no idea where this will fit, but I'm assuming it will be something akin to a CSX. I seriously doubt we need this, just put leather in the Si.

5. The TL
Performance is there, but Acura took its best design of the decade and turned it into a horrible, gaudy mess.

6. The RL
Certainly a cool, underappreciated car, but it doesn't look or perform like a flagship.

7. The Next NSX
was canceled. Along with its glorious V10. It will, however, it will be running in the Japanese Super GT next year.

What I would suggest:

Fix the Insight, however it needs to happen, make it feel like its worth $20k.

Release the Hybrid CR-Z, but also release a regular ICE model. I would think something like a K18 (or maybe the R18 with performance VTEC) with 185hp would be sufficient. It doesn't need to be fast, just quick. Try to keep this model under $20k to compete with the Toyabaru project.

Get the Civic Si out with 225 hp. Have a coupe, a sedan, and wagon.

Sell the hell out of the TSX wagon.

Bring the V10 to life. Perfect SH-AWD.

The TL would do fine how it sits, just prettied up a bit. Keep It Simple, Stupid. Acura does not put the V10 in the TL. Ever. Leave this to an "in-house" tuner, like Mugen. Sell 500 450hp AWD Mugen TL's (similar to the Mugen Si project) and call it a day.

Put the V10 in the NSX, the RL, and the MDX, all with SH-AWD.

Make the RL a true flagship, aiming for the A8. Techno-wizardry about, V6 or V10 power, rear-biased SH-AWD.

What do you think?

[thepolecat]

I'd buy a 225 HP SI Wagon in hearbeat. Love wagons!! Never going to happen though.

[Drummerboy]

Yes. On all accounts.

[Vteckidd]

Honda has done it right for over 30 years they see no need to change. Facts are they HATE the aftermarket crowds like us. Corporate Honda hates the stigmatism that comes from the "fast and furious" crowd.

They never built FAST cars, they built Commuter cars, WE made them "fast".

The CRZ will be awesome and they will sell the shit out of it. It is going to be the first truly fun sporty hybrid thats come out. HAve you looked at the tech it has in it?

The Civic SI will most likely go away at some point in the future. Honda has no RSX sucessor yet, and the SI they like to release for a few years then ditch it. Thats been their MO all along.

S2000 is gone, and wont be coming back for awhile. Insight will go bye bye i think next year due to the CRZ.


The fit has been a huge HIT. My friend couldnt even find one after cash for clunkers because they were sold out of 2009s from coast to coast (in 5 speed). Thats prob one of their hottest selling cars right now

Honda in these tough times is playing it smart. Sell affordable sporty commuter cars, WHAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS DONE. They are extremely smart when it comes to pulling a product off the market. S2000s are going to sell in this market neither is the NSX. They are smart to pull the NSX for now, theres no need for it.

[Nerdsrock22]

Honda has done it right for over 30 years they see no need to change. Facts are they HATE the aftermarket crowds like us. Corporate Honda hates the stigmatism that comes from the "fast and furious" crowd.

They never built FAST cars, they built Commuter cars, WE made them "fast".

The CRZ will be awesome and they will sell the shit out of it. It is going to be the first truly fun sporty hybrid thats come out. HAve you looked at the tech it has in it?

The Civic SI will most likely go away at some point in the future. Honda has no RSX sucessor yet, and the SI they like to release for a few years then ditch it. Thats been their MO all along.

S2000 is gone, and wont be coming back for awhile. Insight will go bye bye i think next year due to the CRZ.


The fit has been a huge HIT. My friend couldnt even find one after cash for clunkers because they were sold out of 2009s from coast to coast (in 5 speed). Thats prob one of their hottest selling cars right now

Honda in these tough times is playing it smart. Sell affordable sporty commuter cars, WHAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS DONE. They are extremely smart when it comes to pulling a product off the market. S2000s are going to sell in this market neither is the NSX. They are smart to pull the NSX for now, theres no need for it.

I have looked at the tech on the CR-Z, and actually am more excited about it than my OP lets on. In fact, part of my reason for selling the Fit so I can build up some cash in case the CR-Z rocks my socks off when it finally gets out.

I don't think I'm asking anything out of Honda other than their historical precedence. A 25hp bump in the Si (more conservative than the previous bump) is simply progress. I purposefully left the S2k out of the equation because I don't see a need for it. I think it served it's purpose as a trophy car, and lasted (probably) longer than it should have.

Honda is nailing the Fit, Civic, Accord, and SUV lines. Like they always have.

The Insight will stay with the CR-Z would be my guess. Honda will have to have a Prius competitor in this market.

My beef is with Acura. If Acura is going to be "Smart Luxury" as they hope for, they have some things to do. They sell 3 sedans that are offered with V6's. In fact, only one of them, the TSX is offered with anything else. Their flagship is hardly a flagship.

I'm not asking for RWD and V8's. I realize that's not Honda. I understand. But to play in the luxury game, you have to stand out...somehow.

[DustnU]

Great post, all those sound like winners to me. +repps

[quickdodge®]

Honda has done it right for over 30 years they see no need to change. .....
.....They never built FAST cars, they built Commuter cars, .....

That's all that needed to be said. The reason why Honda was initially brought over here was because Americans needed a car that was reliable and good on gas when the gas crisis hit in the early 70s. Honda came over and gave them exactly that. No need to change what has been a successful market to them.

Oh and Honda has been doing this for over 40 years for America, lolol. Hail my Civic is 30 years old this year alone. Later, QD.

[thepolecat]

^ indeed-

And they have had a very loyal following for that whole time. I know my family is a honda fam.

They were appaled when I got my Altima for my wife, but hondas are awesome and they know it so they didnt want to wark on the price like nissan was willing to do.

[Vteckidd]

yeah but ACura has never been the "top" luxury brand thats not their game. They have NEVER directly competed with Lexus or BMW or Mercedes.

They sell "affordable" luxury cars. What have they had in the last 10 years that was groundbreaking? The CL Type-S was a great car, the NSX was overpriced but it was extremely balanced. They have never had a car that really stood out to me IMO.

Until the TSX. I mean that car runs its own RACE CLASS and its a luxury sedan haha Its awesome that a $30,000 from Acura can do that. Sure its not as fast or loaded as say an "m3" or "is350" but its way cheaper too. "is350" MSRP is what $40,000-42,000 fully loaded? I dont think a tSX gets near there.

Even if it did, Acura sells to different kinds of people IMO.

I agree they need some type of flagship car and i cant believe they havent announced the replacement for the RSX yet. And i agree their line is kind of tired as they have the RL, CL and TL and it seems they all are hard to tell apart. They need to ditch at least one of them.

WIth no "RSX" successor i dont see how they will stay in business. They have always had that entry level "commuter/luxury" car

[Nerdsrock22]

WIth no "RSX" successor i dont see how they will stay in business. They have always had that entry level "commuter/luxury" car

Get hip to the news, bro.

[Vteckidd]

yeah but come on that was posted 2 days ago. We have yet to see pics, engine info, etc.

You think acura is just gonna go BAM heres the RSX Successor? I think we are still 1-2 years away from that

[Nerdsrock22]

yeah but come on that was posted 2 days ago. We have yet to see pics, engine info, etc.

You think acura is just gonna go BAM heres the RSX Successor? I think we are still 1-2 years away from that

Well sure, but I hardly doubt this will be an entirely new product on a stand alone chassis. Who's to say we won't just get the next CSX? Or God forbid some gussied up version of the Insight comparable to Lexus' HS250h?

Acura isn't going anywhere in 1-2 years. We aren't at mission critical.

[Vteckidd]

the RSX was discontinued in 2006. We are 3 weeks away from 2010.

I would find it extremely hard to believe that they have ANYTHING up their sleeves for 2010 in relation to a successor to the RSX. There no media on it to be found anywhere. This either means they are ditching that whole realm of cars and focusing on sedans, or they will phase the Civic SI out, and re-introduce something in 2011 for the Acura line.

we are at MINIMUM 1-2 years away from an RSX successor if there is one. They would have to announce it, promote it, debut it, then 6 months later it would hit the dealer assuming they have been testing this car in super top secret and no one has seen it. Same with whatever this new "flagship" car is going to be. There been nothing on it, so thats at minimum 1-2 years away.

I would put my money on the following:

CRZ is offered in 2 trim levels, 100hp and 160hp. That will be there sporty fun play car.

Civic SI goes away at the end of 2010 or 2011. Expect no significant changes.

Acura will announce a replacement for the RSX in 2011 and actually show it off.

The Fit stays as long as it keeps selling like it is unless it intrudes on the CRZ market which i dont think it will. the Fit is hondas sub $20,000 car, something the CIVIC used to be.

I honestly think with the CRZ, FIT, CIVIC, Accord, someone has to go. You have just too many models and trim levels out there.

[Elbow]

Honda has done it right for over 30 years they see no need to change. Facts are they HATE the aftermarket crowds like us. Corporate Honda hates the stigmatism that comes from the "fast and furious" crowd.

They never built FAST cars, they built Commuter cars, WE made them "fast".

The CRZ will be awesome and they will sell the shit out of it. It is going to be the first truly fun sporty hybrid thats come out. HAve you looked at the tech it has in it?

The Civic SI will most likely go away at some point in the future. Honda has no RSX sucessor yet, and the SI they like to release for a few years then ditch it. Thats been their MO all along.

S2000 is gone, and wont be coming back for awhile. Insight will go bye bye i think next year due to the CRZ.


The fit has been a huge HIT. My friend couldnt even find one after cash for clunkers because they were sold out of 2009s from coast to coast (in 5 speed). Thats prob one of their hottest selling cars right now

Honda in these tough times is playing it smart. Sell affordable sporty commuter cars, WHAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS DONE. They are extremely smart when it comes to pulling a product off the market. S2000s are going to sell in this market neither is the NSX. They are smart to pull the NSX for now, theres no need for it.

Well they sure do give club racers good deals so..

[Vteckidd]

Well they sure do give club racers good deals so..

i dont understand your comment

[Elbow]

i dont understand your comment

You said they hate the tuner people, however they do offer great benefits to club racers racing a Honda, so they must semi like the performance aspect of Honda.

[Vteckidd]

You said they hate the tuner people, however they do offer great benefits to club racers racing a Honda, so they must semi like the performance aspect of Honda.

i have a few friends in corporate honda and i know some people that work WITH corporate honda and they HATE the tuner crowd.

I dont think the people that run sanctioned events are what they are talking about. They mean the kids that are street racing and giving Honda a bad name.

[Elbow]

i have a few friends in corporate honda and i know some people that work WITH corporate honda and they HATE the tuner crowd.

I dont think the people that run sanctioned events are what they are talking about. They mean the kids that are street racing and giving Honda a bad name.

Ahh ok, well I misunderstood, continue on.

[TheChosenOne]

Nice thread. I do understand the frustrations with the Si, especially with it's lack of thrill compared to other performance cars in its class, but as previously stated, they aren't made to be fast and cool, but rather economical and affordable. To me, it seems, just lately that they have started to put a strong effort to make the cars more esthetically sleek and along with their flagship reliability and affordability. I love Honda just as much as anyone, believe me, but wanting something that isn't gunna happen is only gunna suck more.

[Vteckidd]

I think the SI does really well in its class. I mean what else is around its price range?

MSRP on the SI is $22000. It comes with MP3 hookup, Navigation(According to Edmunds but i think thats wrong, i thought navi was $1500 more).

Anything in its class is a pile of garbage in terms of performance. You have the Mazdaspeed 3 which isnt as good looking IMO, Toyota PRIUS (Seriously) , CObalt SS (arguably its closest competitor but it costs more and i dont think has the styling SI has), VW GTI

I can say out of all those cars id rather own the Civic SI. I just think the cockpit looks better and the outside looks better

[Nerdsrock22]

I think the SI does really well in its class. I mean what else is around its price range?

MSRP on the SI is $22000. It comes with MP3 hookup, Navigation(According to Edmunds but i think thats wrong, i thought navi was $1500 more).

Anything in its class is a pile of garbage in terms of performance. You have the Mazdaspeed 3 which isnt as good looking IMO, Toyota PRIUS (Seriously) , CObalt SS (arguably its closest competitor but it costs more and i dont think has the styling SI has), VW GTI

I can say out of all those cars id rather own the Civic SI. I just think the cockpit looks better and the outside looks better

I completely agree that the Si still outclasses everything. I just want to make sure that continues.

[EJ25RUN]

I dont think the people that run sanctioned events are what they are talking about. They mean the kids that are street racing and giving Honda a bad name.

You say that like there's something off about it.

[5speed]

Great thread. I agree on both arguments presented but technology has progressed enough now that we can have 225HP in an SI and have 32-35 hwy mpg, or any other car for that matter. I understand that Honda has always built commuter cars, but the fact is you don't go releasing a sports car like NSX and S2000, and then stop manufacturing them and expect consumers to not want another sports car. They built those to perfection, and I don't see why they wouldn't want to do it again.

[Nerdsrock22]

Great thread. I agree on both arguments presented but technology has progressed enough now that we can have 225HP in an SI and have 32-35 hwy mpg, or any other car for that matter. I understand that Honda has always built commuter cars, but the fact is you don't go releasing a sports car like NSX and S2000, and then stop manufacturing them and expect consumers to not want another sports car. They built those to perfection, and I don't see why they wouldn't want to do it again.

This really hits my point home. Honda is obviously known for their efficient commuters, but one has to recognize their sporting intentions as well. Honda's first production car was the S500, a quick and efficient roadster. Then you have everything from the Prelude, to the Si's, to the Type R's, and finally the NSX and S2000. Historically, Honda has been, and continues to be, a sporting brand.

I don't want a 400hp rwd Prelude replacement.

I just want to buy a competitive, relevant, fun to drive Honda in the future.

[5speed]

This really hits my point home. Honda is obviously known for their efficient commuters, but one has to recognize their sporting intentions as well. Honda's first production car was the S500, a quick and efficient roadster. Then you have everything from the Prelude, to the Si's, to the Type R's, and finally the NSX and S2000. Historically, Honda has been, and continues to be, a sporting brand.

I don't want a 400hp rwd Prelude replacement.

I just want to buy a competitive, relevant, fun to drive Honda in the future.

Exactly! I think that if they released a single sports car that they would benefit from it so much. To me its just an obvious path that should be taken. I don't think the consumers are asking much. We don't need both a super car that will compete with GTR or perhaps an LF-A, or another roadster to replace S2000. Just give us one... which I would prefer a roadster bc obviously it would be the more affordable and economically productive route.

[Nerdsrock22]

Exactly! I think that if they released a single sports car that they would benefit from it so much. To me its just an obvious path that should be taken. I don't think the consumers are asking much. We don't need both a super car that will compete with GTR or perhaps an LF-A, or another roadster to replace S2000. Just give us one... which I would prefer a roadster bc obviously it would be the more affordable and economically productive route.

I think it will be awhile before we see another roadster from Honda. The S2000 was more a celebration of Honda's 50th than anything.

A lot is riding on the CRZ for me. I drove the Insight and it didn't impress me much, and the CRZ is going to be sharing a similar powertrain. I know Honda can still make a great, fun-to-drive small car, because I love my Fit, and it makes do with 109 hp. I just wish we could get a regular ICE CRZ, with about 150hp.

[5speed]

Yeah, I know it the S2000 wasn't supposed to last long, but damn! It's too nice of a ride to write off IMO. Just a fast coupe would be nice, but new platform. Don't really care for another SI, though they are nice. I just wouldn't buy one. It is nice to see that Civics prices are starting to lower. Damn F&F movie inflation on the them is a bitch.

[HypnoToad]

I completely agree that the Si still outclasses everything. I just want to make sure that continues.

im a big fan of the new kia forte koup which will deff be aimmed at the SI,for bout $5k less.

id like to get one in the next year or 2.

[Nerdsrock22]

im a big fan of the new kia forte koup which will deff be aimmed at the SI,for bout $5k less.

id like to get one in the next year or 2.

I saw a blue one at Publix the other day. It was actually hot.

They are considering a Turbo version.

[HypnoToad]

I saw a blue one at Publix the other day. It was actually hot.

They are considering a Turbo version.

yea its alot like the blue on ur fit,deff looks nice.

they come along way,and thier line ups are starting to make a impact.

[5speed]

im a big fan of the new kia forte koup which will deff be aimmed at the SI,for bout $5k less.

id like to get one in the next year or 2.

Yep, I would go for the Forte also. Plus aftermarket parts are starting to boom for the koup, not to mention what can be learned from the Grand Am team in 2010 will show which is better.

[Nerdsrock22]

they come along way,and thier line ups are starting to make a impact.

Hyundai and Kia are the brands to watch for the next 5 years.

[wwli]

The younger generation is what drives America and this world, if auto manufacturers don't make cars appealing to them then they will eventually fail.

From the CRX days to now the CRZ it's being a big difference and Honda's cars are getting bigger and bigger which is a major down fall especially in the European Market.

I remember when Honda first introduced the MacPherson struts instead of the double wish-bone suspension on the 7th gen vehicles which IMO was a downgrade and it's being argued. Double-wish bone suspension is a good suspension, improve it not degrade it.

When that happened I thought Honda hired someone that used to work for the American auto makers.....seriously because it suck.

I am and will always be a Honda fan but it's from 1988 to 2000 for Civics.

[skacore]

I think the SI does really well in its class. I mean what else is around its price range?

MSRP on the SI is $22000. It comes with MP3 hookup, Navigation(According to Edmunds but i think thats wrong, i thought navi was $1500 more).

Anything in its class is a pile of garbage in terms of performance. You have the Mazdaspeed 3 which isnt as good looking IMO, Toyota PRIUS (Seriously) , CObalt SS (arguably its closest competitor but it costs more and i dont think has the styling SI has), VW GTI

I can say out of all those cars id rather own the Civic SI. I just think the cockpit looks better and the outside looks better

The new Civic SI doesn't even come close to the GTI in any category sadly. I've owned both a MKV GTI and an 8th gen Civic and I have driven the new SI. The only advantage the SI has is that it comes with an LSD stock.

[JITB]

I agree honda knows what they are doing, but i dont understand the Acura lineup at all.

I still get the TL and TSX confused, and its like the RL doesnt even exist at all.

I do think the RSx should come back or something sporty FWD from acura.

The Civic is good at what it is made for, but it just hasnt been that appealing to me after the mighty 2000 Si coupe! But it has kept its place as a reliable commuter car with good mpg. but i have always argued that the Civic is too expensive and it dont get any extras with the mid level model. But its well worth its price tag....i would just expect more for that price tag, especially when u compare it to others in its class.

The Si does alright, but its later generation has alto of competition, and you get alot more than you get for the tag of an Si.

[ash7]

From the CRX days to now the CRZ it's being a big difference and Honda's cars are getting bigger and bigger which is a major down fall especially in the European Market.

if you haven't noticed, every vehicle is getting bigger, you can thank crash safety ratings for that one. While a company has the freedom to design and produce a car that looks like anything they want (for the most part.) They DO have to fall within the guidelines of whatever countries they want to sell the car in. Here in the States it is the NHSTA.

I remember when Honda first introduced the MacPherson struts instead of the double wish-bone suspension on the 7th gen vehicles which IMO was a downgrade and it's being argued. Double-wish bone suspension is a good suspension, improve it not degrade it.

They reintroduced the MacPherson struts in order to keep production costs down. If i recall correctly, the old CVCC had MacPherson struts up front. They introduced them for the first time in 84 with the 3rd gens. QD can confirm that, hopefully.

I too do not like where Honda and Acura are headed with their lineups. But perhaps the thing i'm the least comfortable with, is how autos these days are not a "drivers vehicle" like they used to be. The Fit still maintains that image in my opinion; which may be part of the reason it is wildly popular. Whatever happened to "bare bones" vehicles?

-jonathan