Import Tuner's Got my back! H22 head + F23 Block

[TheChosenOne]

Yes, we've been here before. And I know I originally renounced my ambitions to throw my money away on a half-assed motor build attempt. But just hear me out!

In this month's issue of Import Tuner (pg. 89 i think) They had an article about the little know "K-Killer" that can be built for a third less! Money is ALWAYS an issue, but what's more important is the sheer ease that they say the engine can be built by. All the simple version of the build calls for is a H22 head, an F23 block, and K-series pistons.

Now, Mike, go easy on me cause I just want some input from ATL all motor gurus on whether this is legit. In the past, I presented the hybrid build, and was shunned because of it's price tag compared to a Stock H22.

Now, I already know that the build has to be mated to a b-series tranny to compete with a semi-built K, but I'm not even trying to be the fastest. In a nut shell, all I want to know is can this be done as easily as the mag states?

[Vteckidd]

don't believe everything you read. I read the article with enough money anything is possible but I've seen more problems out of g23 than they are worth. Personally I'd rather use a stock h22. I'm just not a fan of matting a sohc with a dohc cause a mag said it was ok.

[ash7]

shoot man, give it a shot - learn about both the block and the head and why they can be put together. And if it makes sense, then do it. Very interesting to see what you wind up with bro.

-jonathan

[mirz833]

it can be done i have that right now but not k pistons jet thats next

[TheChosenOne]

don't believe everything you read. I read the article with enough money anything is possible but I've seen more problems out of g23 than they are worth. Personally I'd rather use a stock h22. I'm just not a fan of matting a sohc with a dohc cause a mag said it was ok.

Oh, of course. Import Tuner is not the final word on my decision, but all that it shows, is that it ran. And it ran WELL, with Dyno numbers to prove it. I'm almost willing to say that with that header you've come up with that I could put down 200+ to the wheels with a stock head and just pistons and a tune.

shoot man, give it a shot - learn about both the block and the head and why they can be put together. And if it makes sense, then do it. Very interesting to see what you wind up with bro.

-jonathan

Thanks man, but people have been messing with this build or stuff similar to it for almost five years now. I hope I can figure out the sure do's and don't of it so I can make it happen without too many doubts.

it can be done i have that right now but not k pistons jet thats next

Nice! If you don't mind me asking, what's your setup?

[mirz833]

got h22 head/tranyy f23 block and some other basic shit

[Vteckidd]

the problem is to do it right it will cost alot of money. machine work, bearings , pistons, oem parts, cams, header, etc etc etc

You could buy an h22 longblock with cams and a header an make 190whp no problem.

I dont know if you are into building a motor, i see no advantage the F23 gives you over say a OEM H23VTEC. Why mix an match ?

The LSVTECs have been proven to be reliable as long as you build them right. I have only seen 1 or 2 G23s that were actually worth what it cost the end user

[TheChosenOne]

the problem is to do it right it will cost alot of money. machine work, bearings , pistons, oem parts, cams, header, etc etc etc

You could buy an h22 longblock with cams and a header an make 190whp no problem.

I dont know if you are into building a motor, i see no advantage the F23 gives you over say a OEM H23VTEC. Why mix an match ?

The LSVTECs have been proven to be reliable as long as you build them right. I have only seen 1 or 2 G23s that were actually worth what it cost the end user

True, but that's not my question. Yeah, it might cosr more than an H22, but I didn't compare it to that... I'm trying to be more along the lines of a K.

Check me out, and advise where you see fit:
H22 head - 300
F23 Block - 100
K20 pistons - 200
Bearings, head gasket, & head studs - 400

Now, these are rough estimates, and I know nothing goes as planned, but $1000 for an OEM G23 build isn't that bad. Of Course I still need to tune it, slap a header on and get a tranny, clutch and axles. All in all, that's right at $2,500 for a full swap that SHOULD have around 12:1 compression and be putting down more than 200.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[WhiteAccord]

If your going to half ass anything, it of course would cost less. For the decent build for the G23 should cost you about 4k give or take. Your also for getting there will be machine work that will be needed.

With alot of research on the N/A G23 it isnt a reliable motor. Ive seen a couple half asses builds on the G23(Cheap) all have failed on reliabilty.

[xdavidscenex]

yeah can check onecamonly.com most ppl on there are using big block sohc[f22 and f23] with gsr bearing design. you have to get some work done to the crank.

[TheChosenOne]

If your going to half ass anything, it of course would cost less. For the decent build for the G23 should cost you about 4k give or take. Your also for getting there will be machine work that will be needed.

With alot of research on the N/A G23 it isnt a reliable motor. Ive seen a couple half asses builds on the G23(Cheap) all have failed on reliabilty.

If I was going to half ass it, I would have stated that in the beginning. There are people on H-T that have been running G23's for 30,000+ miles. I am well aware of machine work that will be needed, but are you?

Let me make this clear:MONEY IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE, BUT RELIABILITY IS MORE IMPORTANT! Enough with the post about if you build it cheap it wont last long... NO SHIIT! I'm not a noob, so please don't try me like one.

Please read the original post before posting you opinion on whether i should build it or not b/c if that was the case I would have post a poll. So far, only minor machine work is needed. I'm looking for more significant information that will help me with the build such as piston choices, clearances, and tolerances. Would OEM bearings be a better choice than ACL bearings? Will an extra oil line to the head be necessary?

[mirz833]

Look people if he wants to do it let him do i have that set up and i like it so let the man do his thing. IF you guys can help him then do so dont try to tell him what to do with his $......... i say do it man i suppppport you ok and trust me you can kill some k and s2k subaru evo g37 and other shit like that if you dont trust me i can get some people that worrre there with me when i raccced them and if you get like some nos you be in 12 but you will need slicks and lsd
/ here is a vid me killing a k and i speak from experience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wspe0g54Ds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjtUIGmLzsI

[BTEC]

hmmm, im not a h of f man obviously but i think i might be interested in doing a little research on this one.

imo, just do it. fuck what u read, what ppl say. u can get most of the it done and work the bugs out later. lol!! thats how i do. PS: always have a backup setup waiting in case shit dnt buff out though. lmao!!!

[mirz833]

hmmm, im not a h of f man obviously but i think i might be interested in doing a little research on this one.

imo, just do it. fuck what u read, what ppl say. u can get most of the it done and work the bugs out later. lol!! thats how i do. PS: always have a backup setup waiting in case shit dnt buff out though. lmao!!!

^^^^^^^^agreeeeeeeeeeeee

[mirz833]

my g23 on some cams http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arZg6Sy4vFQ

[scttydb411]

i neglected to read the article, but why not just do an h23/vtec w/ high comp pistons, s2p2 cams, tdf 4 lane header or mikes h22 header and a 2.5" exhuast?

am i missing something here?

[BTEC]

what is the difference in wrist pin location? k vs h? that would make a big difference. and do they not make a thicker headgasket so u dnt have the mess with the combustion chambers in the head?

i dnt like the blob of silicone used where the head dnt line up.

Imo, i think its a cool thing to do if u have to stuff laying around but to go out and find alllllll that stuff, plus the machine work...

Is that a vtec bottom end with a non vtec head anyway?

[BTEC]

i neglected to read the article, but why not just do an h23/vtec w/ high comp pistons, s2p2 cams, tdf 4 lane header or mikes h22 header and a 2.5" exhuast?

am i missing something here?

thats what id do. i need my vtec. and shit not lining up, i have enough problems with my experiments. 8 hrs on the side of the highway gets old quit. and when its 20 degrees, u dnt have any heat and dnt know when ur hmboy is gonna be there with the trailer to get u sucks. Sorry, i had a couple flash backs.

[TheChosenOne]

Scotty, are you talking about Honda's Factory H23Vtec, or the frank build H23Vtec? If its the first, its TOO rare and expensive, and if its the latter, the whole oil squirter mods and such are just too iffy for my likeing.

Since I have a running d15b7, I've got my back-up, so that's taken care of.

I've been researching everything H & F related like a Mad-man, and there is nothing else even close (except for an ebay turbo kit on a single cam) that can have me past 200whp for such a decnt price WHILE STAYING RELATIVLY RELIABLE. An F20 would be VERY nice, but I'm a displacement whore, so turning down that extra .3 liters just doesn't sit well with me. I think I'm going to buy a head this week.

[HatchHero]

i neglected to read the article, but why not just do an h23/vtec w/ high comp pistons, s2p2 cams, tdf 4 lane header or mikes h22 header and a 2.5" exhuast?

am i missing something here?

thats what im gonna do!!

[TheChosenOne]

UPDATE!!!
I got in touch with the guy who built the actual motor that was in the article, and got some very good info that's re-assuring on this build. He has a build thread on H-T, and he seems to be an experienced and well knowledged honda builder.

1. The K20 pistons will be a direct fit, and he assured OEM would be fine!

2.There ISN'T any major machine work needed, which is even better news!

3.I can keep the F23 oil pump, but the H22 water pump will need the F23 pulley.

There are other minor things ill have to work out, such as engine bay fitment, but that's not what I'm worried about. I'm pretty much 95% sure I will be doing this build, so I'm looking forward to posting pictures as soon as progress has been made!

[southside]

Sounds like you have been researching the hell out of this one.Alot of people dont do research and that becomes there down fall.I'd like to see how this runs in the end though.

[BTEC]

UPDATE!!!
I got in touch with the guy who built the actual motor that was in the article, and got some very good info that's re-assuring on this build. He has a build thread on H-T, and he seems to be an experienced and well knowledged honda builder.

1. The K20 pistons will be a direct fit, and he assured OEM would be fine!

2.There ISN'T any major machine work needed, which is even better news!

3.I can keep the F23 oil pump, but the H22 water pump will need the F23 pulley.

There are other minor things ill have to work out, such as engine bay fitment, but that's not what I'm worried about. I'm pretty much 95% sure I will be doing this build, so I'm looking forward to posting pictures as soon as progress has been made!

the thread on HT is the one i saw. are u gonna have to have the squinch pads cut like he did when u use the k20 pistons?

[speedminded]

The F23 block can not be revved to make full use of the H22 head, simple as that.

[SouthSide Tay]

well the reason it cant be reved is because of the rod stroke ratio. so why not use the h22 crank if you can get one cheap or if your not scared do what im doing not worring about the displacement as much and using a f23 block h22 head and f20 crank with forged pistons and rods built for boost

[TheChosenOne]

Cutting the squinch pads... I'm not sure, ill have to see if that's an issue that even needs to be address considering he used after market pistons and I'm sticking to OEM.

The block can rev high enought to make more power than a stock H22, so your really just making an irrelevant point. Look, the block won't need to revd over 7.5k to make 200whp. Enough said. How is what you said relevant to my build? Granted, the head would make power for another 1k after that, but the h22 bottom end is the flaw that I'm addressing with this build! Without a doubt, the F23 bottom end will generate more torque and hp that the same head with the stock H22 block. So , if you don't have any insight that will help me on my build, please follow these instructions:

GTFO!! And Merry phucking Christmas :-)

[Benefit]

good shit

[mirz833]

i love my g23

[PawnShopCEO]

g23 is cool... BUT you only get 2mm more stroke out of the f23 crank than the h23 crank... h23 crank is a 95mm crank stock. I would do what scotty says and run a h23 bottom end and h22 head. h23vtec came from the factory in japan. F23 dohc vtec never did. If you want something to drive every day i would do a h23 vtec with higher compression pistons (type s or mahle 11.5:1) and a kidd racing header

[ash7]

Cutting the squinch pads... I'm not sure, ill have to see if that's an issue that even needs to be address considering he used after market pistons and I'm sticking to OEM.

The block can rev high enought to make more power than a stock H22, so your really just making an irrelevant point. Look, the block won't need to revd over 7.5k to make 200whp. Enough said. How is what you said relevant to my build? Granted, the head would make power for another 1k after that, but the h22 bottom end is the flaw that I'm addressing with this build! Without a doubt, the F23 bottom end will generate more torque and hp that the same head with the stock H22 block. So , if you don't have any insight that will help me on my build, please follow these instructions:

GTFO!! And Merry phucking Christmas :-)

that's what's up jordan - hats off to you sir

I'm looking forward to the results
-jonathan

[Dirty Octopus™]

and this is going in what car?

[TheChosenOne]

It's going in the hatch. Now that X-mas has passed I won't have to waste my money on meanigless gifts for friends and family! I wanted to start buying parts, but I still have to get my wheels and tires. I really wanted the USDM ITR replicas, but they aren't going to come back out until Feb-Mar, so I think I'm gunna go with my back-up setup. :-)

[TheChosenOne]

And to Peggy's response... GTFO! Why would I spend the equivalent to a legit Type R swap, for a phucking h23vtec that would still require me to pu pistons in it??? You obviously did not read the main purposes behind the build. Keep in mind, I thin the Honda H23Vtec still has those damn FMR walls as well... ;-). If you want to build that for me for half the price, then be my guest!

[Dirty Octopus™]

It's going in the hatch. Now that X-mas has passed I won't have to waste my money on meanigless gifts for friends and family! I wanted to start buying parts, but I still have to get my wheels and tires. I really wanted the USDM ITR replicas, but they aren't going to come back out until Feb-Mar, so I think I'm gunna go with my back-up setup. :-)

oh so what motor is in there now?

and BTW wait for the polished joints that Justin has. they're MIGHTY fresh and worth the wait

TRUST

[TheChosenOne]

I rocking the always zesty, d15b7!! And I really want the USDM's man. Justins are hard as phuck, but I don't wanna be on his nuts and shyt. I wanna have my own funk.

[Dirty Octopus™]

I rocking the always zesty, d15b7!! And I really want the USDM's man. Justins are hard as phuck, but I don't wanna be on his nuts and shyt. I wanna have my own funk.

oh okay. i forgot they made those 5 lug replicas in 4 lug.
dang... nevermind on holding for those. i no likes

[05IONREDLINE]

The price they give for the G23 swap is $5,400.00. That is built and tuned. It put out 248.8 WHP and 181.2 LB-FT of torque.

The price they give for the K24 swap is $10,910.00. That is also built and tuned. It put out 229.5 WHP and 159.0 LB-FT of torque.

That's just to give some info from the magazine:
They used the F23 block with H22A head and K20 pistons. H22A has a higher flowing head then the F23 head. The F23 block has iron cylinders. H22A block has fiber-reinforced metal (FRM) cylinder walls making over-boring impossible and it doesn't do aftermarket pistons very well. The H22A head uses 8 ports for oil drain and the F23 block uses 6 so you have to close off 2 of the ports to make the build possible. Also, there is a slight difference in the external water pipe routing between the F23 and the H22A so some slight modification is needed there although they say a piece of silicone radiator hose and clamps works. They used the F23 block components and the H22A timing belt and the H22A distributor. They had to pull apart the F23 water pump from its gear and pressed it into a H22A unit. They used a B16a S1 transmission.

[Nang]

got your head here brah

p.s. they didnt use the h22 waterpump, its a f23 with h22 gear and lower timing gear

[Vteckidd]

not too sound like a dick, but.....

Instead of listening to "magazine builds" listen to some people that have actually BUILT some high horsepower NA engines.

"peggy" has the highest whp H22 in GA IIRC around 230whp with an OEM build.

The problem i have with this topic is that people are looking for big power "CHEAP" and it simply DOES NOT WORK.

Unless you have built a motor that ran well an has dyno charts to back it up, i suggest you heed the advice of people in this thread like Scotty, Peggy, and me.

To say their is "no machine work involved" when you are talking about "building a motor" kinda shows how much of a noob you are to building a motor. No offense of course. We all have to start somewhere.

You will spend $500-600 on machine work, if you dont, then it wasnt worth a shit. Theres balancing, decking, sizing the rods, hot tanking, etc. Theres other stuff like new OEM parts (oil pump, TB, WP, seals, Headgasket, ARP studs, Bearings, etc)

If you think you can slap a F23 block with an H22 head and make 200whp, good luck to you. It WONT HAPPEN. i dont care what cams or header you have, it wont do it and it wont last.

Based upon my EXPERIENCE, which is all i can go by, the KEEP IT SIMPLE BUILDS are the ones that last and make GOOD POWER. The ones that try to reinvent the wheel are the ones that blow up an fail at impressing me.

Look Honda DESIGNED a H23VTEC motor, buy it, you get your 2.3L and you get VTEC you get OEM Honda engineering which is better than you will ever be able to imagine.

Or

Get an H23 block for CHEAP, and do a hybrid H23 VTEC. but make sure you build the bottom end as the H23 rods and pistons arent so great.

OR

Get a JDM H22 with low mileage, do cams and a header an make 200whp, with OEM FACTORY RELIABILITY.

No one said that the G23 wouldnt make power, and no one is trying to rain on your parade, but most of us think you simply dont know what it takes to build this kind of hybrid motor. Speedminded is right, the F23 bottom end CANT rev high enough to take advantage of the H22 head that is built to rev to 8200. How can you sit there an say "i dont need to rev it to XXXX rpm to make 200whp" when you have never done it? The factory rev limiter on a F23 is like 6800rpm, what makes you think those rods will live at 7500-8000. Ask Type-Flaco on here or Emminodagreat how long F23s can last at high rpms.

If you want to do it, DO IT, no one is stopping you, we are just making sure you know what you are getting into before you start acting like you know what you are getting into.

If you have the money go for it an do it right. But i prefer to get the most "bang for my buck" and IMO, the G23 isnt up high on my list.

Good Luck

[Vteckidd]

Cutting the squinch pads... I'm not sure, ill have to see if that's an issue that even needs to be address considering he used after market pistons and I'm sticking to OEM.

The block can rev high enought to make more power than a stock H22, so your really just making an irrelevant point. Look, the block won't need to revd over 7.5k to make 200whp. Enough said. How is what you said relevant to my build? Granted, the head would make power for another 1k after that, but the h22 bottom end is the flaw that I'm addressing with this build! Without a doubt, the F23 bottom end will generate more torque and hp that the same head with the stock H22 block. So , if you don't have any insight that will help me on my build, please follow these instructions:

GTFO!! And Merry phucking Christmas :-)

If you are right then why did Honda even design the H22..........

the h22 is a FAR SUPERIOR block than the F23, Nuff said. you dont understand it i cant help you.

The flaw in your build is not the H22 block, and if you think .1L is enough to really make a difference, you have alot to learn. I guess the 89mm crank is light years ahead of the 87mm crank huh.............

The difference is minimal, very minimal.