xMAS and Christianity???

[4dmin]

So there is alot of talk now b/c alot of gov't organizations that do xMAS trees have now changed the names to Holiday Trees, many school have taken xMAS out of theme songs in music class, etc...

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?


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me personally i really don't care i have come accustomed to xMAS themes though i am not a christian... but they are in grained in me b/c we are feed christian values everywhere in this country w/o choice; i think it is a big move for the gov't to seperate what was supposed to be a religious holiday w/ the greediest time of year ;)

[NEONRACER]

I fuckin hate this Holiday bullshit. This is America and guess what it's a CHRISTMAS TREE, not a fuckin Holiday Tree. I am not against it for any religious reason either.

[Bishop]

i dont give a shit

[Trey]

It's CHRISTmas...not xMas. Show some respect. ;)

[4dmin]

^ smartass +20

[metalman]

Being a holiday of pagan origin in the first place it doesnt really matter. Christ never was in it to begin with. The whole argument is stupid. If some misguided souls wish to involve Christ in their "celebration", let em. If they dont, thats fine too.

[Trey]

We've all been lead to believe that it was his birthday. I doubt the accuracy, but that's the argument.

[Killer]

well everyone know's it's not the exact date but it's the thought that counts behind this one. if u were adopted and ur parents didn't know ur real birthday should they just not celebrate ur birth or just pick another day? That's y i feel Christmas should stay. Now metalman... ur kinda right christmas was turned into a pagan holiday so that the "world"(non believers) would still celebrate the birth of Christ. I believe the Catholics did this... i could be wrong.

[metalman]

We've all been lead to believe that it was his birthday. I doubt the accuracy, but that's the argument.

I'd agree..alot of people have been "lead to believe" alot of things...most of which is nonsense. If one who professes belief in the Bible would carefully examine that book they would find that the date isnt given. Nor is any suggestion or even a hint at a celebration of his birth. Those two facts in themselves should tell one something. They will also see that certain historical events took place at that time (taxation during Herods reign etc) and from that historians can tell it was likely in the early fall.

So then, where did the Dec 25 nonsense come from? Short answer- A Roman sunworship festival later adopted by the catholic church (hence the name Christ Mass) and then the "infection" spread to other churches from that.

This being said, there are many good things about the season. Giving, family, etc etc...things we call the "spirit" of the season. No harm in any of that.

[collins]

good points...

and see people, its is ENTIRELY possible to have a CIVIL convo about religeon (did i even spell that right?)

[Killer]

^^^^ yeah it's possible but if the wrong person reads it it'll start being bashed and that's what get's things started...

metal man good job with those facts... i kinda new the reasonings just never knew the actual facts!

[Trey]

Great point but it's not a fact without a Bibliography. :D

[Kevykev]

^ hahaa damn you just brang a flashback from college I would type great essays and Fk the bibliography formats up.


Great to here the ideas in this thread.

[AtifSajid]

well everyone know's it's not the exact date but it's the thought that counts behind this one. if u were adopted and ur parents didn't know ur real birthday should they just not celebrate ur birth or just pick another day? That's y i feel Christmas should stay. Now metalman... ur kinda right christmas was turned into a pagan holiday so that the "world"(non believers) would still celebrate the birth of Christ. I believe the Catholics did this... i could be wrong.

We'll you make a good point, but Muslims believe he was born in the time frame November to January..not on the 25th..that is the reason we do not celebrate his birthday.

But I know for a fact even if we did, it wouldnt be like Christman is celebrated with a tree and others. Im sure we would have some gift exchanging and so forth..a prayer. But thats all.

[AtifSajid]

So there is alot of talk now b/c alot of gov't organizations that do xMAS trees have now changed the names to Holiday Trees, many school have taken xMAS out of theme songs in music class, etc...

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?
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I think its kinda stupid to do that. This is a pretty much Christian society..Try that shit in the Middle East and your ass will be found in the river floating...lol

But then again this is America..FREEDOM to do pretty much whatever religious wise.

[Malana]

It has always been my understanding that Dec 25 was not thought to be Jesus birthday. Thís is just the day that we celebrate his birthday. Think of it like being born on Feb 29th of leap year. You would celebrate a day each year but it wouldn't really be the exact birthday.

[metalman]

It has always been my understanding that Dec 25 was not thought to be Jesus birthday. Thís is just the day that we celebrate his birthday. Think of it like being born on Feb 29th of leap year. You would celebrate a day each year but it wouldn't really be the exact birthday.

Your right. Its not his birthday. The problem is, there is no reason to celebrate it. The Bible doesnt command, suggest or even hint at such a celebration.
The only reason there is such a celebration is because it was a pagan festival that was adopted by the catholic church. For anyone who cares adopting pagan rituals is forbidden in the Bible. Christmas is a catholic invention. If you are a catholic that may understandably matter to you. If a protestant, then it shouldnt have much significance just like many other meaningless made-up catholic rituals.

To me its an enjoyable secular "holiday" for family, friends, and giving.

[Malana]

Your right. Its not his birthday. The problem is, there is no reason to celebrate it. The Bible doesnt command, suggest or even hint at such a celebration.
The only reason there is such a celebration is because it was a pagan festival that was adopted by the catholic church. For anyone who cares adopting pagan rituals is forbidden in the Bible. Christmas is a catholic invention. If you are a catholic that may understandably matter to you. If a protestant, then it shouldnt have much significance just like many other meaningless made-up catholic rituals.

To me its an enjoyable secular "holiday" for family, friends, and giving.

That is true that the celebration was timed to coincide with a pagan festival. This was done not only by the Roman church because it was a way to hide what they were doing and not get prematurely martyred but also by the Eastern Orthodox churches. It was eventually adopted by everyone.

I know many protestants who find meaning in Roman Catholic rituals. God's creation could not function and be so well sustained without the infinite diversity that he designed. Just as there are a hundred ways for different types of birds to build their nests, there are a hundred ways for God's people to worship him. Some of us need ritual. Some of us do not.

I'm glad you are able to find some joy in the celebration of Christ's birth even if it is only as a secular holiday. I consider Christmas celebration's which preceed Christmas day to be secular and only celebrate Christmas from Christmas Day to Epiphany. Right now, I am celebrating Advent.

I am curious. Do you know or remember if you were baptised in the name of the father, son and holy ghost? Or were you baptised in Jesus name only?

I don't know about the rest of you but I find it difficult to write about religion with the little smiley faces misbehaving on the right side of the screen. The little red guy and the two busy yellow folks are just disturbing.

[ISAtlanta300]

"Celebration" is not the word I would use either. It is to acknowledge His birth and more for remembrance.

[Curbow_USMC]

I personally think that this is the stupidest thing ever brought up. a christmas tree is a big part of Christmas it is a tradition. It is stupid to try to go and change the name of something that has been around for years and years. I dont see why thies radical idiots cant just leave well enough alone and and let tradition stay as it has always been.

and that is my :2cents:

[00CIVICSI]

If you dont beleive in christmas dont celebrate it. Just that simple. Quiting trying to make it into something its not.

[Curbow_USMC]

If you dont beleive in christmas dont celebrate it. Just that simple. Quiting trying to make it into something its not.

i'll second that

[metalman]

That is true that the celebration was timed to coincide with a pagan festival. This was done not only by the Roman church because it was a way to hide what they were doing and not get prematurely martyred but also by the Eastern Orthodox churches. It was eventually adopted by everyone.

I know many protestants who find meaning in Roman Catholic rituals.


I think you are slightly misinformed. History is quite clear, the catholic church has through the centuries has been the organization doing the killing and making martyrs. It is true that other churches which are based on the same pagan rituals as catholicism share its festivals. The birthday of Tammuz, the roman saturnalia etc were simply renamed and added to catholcisms long list of nonsensical rituals.

Earlier in this country's history protestants generally abstained from christmas celebrations and regarded them as catholic pagan nonsense. It was with the influx of immigration that these "celebrations" caught on in protestant churches in America.

"Rituals" for christians have been spelled out clearly in the Bible. Adding to them (in a worship sense) is forbidden by the same Book.


If you dont beleive in christmas dont celebrate it. Just that simple. Quiting trying to make it into something its not.

"Making it into something its not" is the whole basis of christmas.
Its not the birthday of Christ yet people have attempted to make it into that.
It would still be called the brthday of Tammuz (or other sun gods in different cutlures) if not "made into" something its not. ;)

As for the public debate over the name...christmas or holiday..its the same difference...although I would continue to call it christmas.

[4dmin]

peachtree city is having this battle now... they called their tree i think the Grand Tree not the Xmas tree so peeps are crying about it :rolleyes:

[metalman]

peachtree city is having this battle now... they called their tree i think the Grand Tree not the Xmas tree so peeps are crying about it :rolleyes:

grand?? thats crazy. do these people not have a more pressing issue, perhaps a REAL one to worry about? :rolleyes:

[ISAtlanta300]

oh, and MERRY CHRISTMAS !!!!

[4dmin]

^ hey fuck off its Xmas... i don't like to type :D +20 smartass

[Malana]

I think you are slightly misinformed. History is quite clear, the catholic church has through the centuries has been the organization doing the killing and making martyrs.

We must be reading different history books. There is no religion or denomination that does not have blood on its hands when it comes to killing in the name of God and the making of martyrs.

Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. What does this mean to you? I would not like for anyone to ever tell me that beliefs and rituals I hold dear are nonsensical and pagan. Since I am a Christian, this is something I do not do.


"Rituals" for christians have been spelled out clearly in the Bible. Adding to them (in a worship sense) is forbidden by the same Book.


That is your opinion. Have you ever attend a service in a Jewish Temple? How can rituals and traditions be wrong if they were inherited from Judaism?

I respect that a form of devotion devoid of ritual is what works for some.
I obviously experience ritual in a different way. It facilitates my relationship with God. I do not feel close to God when I attend a protestant church where the service seems to revolve most around entertaining people in an audience. This is not worship to me. It is merely community. To me it is like going out to dinner and only having dessert. Eventually, I have to go get me a nice piece of meat.

I believe that my loving God wants me to worship in whatever way works for me the best.

[AtifSajid]

Isnt rituals and tradition the same thing? I think it is.

Religion and tradition are different. you guys get your wording correct and th reply.

[Malana]

Isnt rituals and tradition the same thing? I think it is.

Religion and tradition are different. you guys get your wording correct and th reply.

I guess its a square is a rectangle kind of thing. I consider rituals and traditions to be different things.

Rituals for me encompass the proscribed order of our religious ceremonies. We open with song, read the old testament, read the new testament, read from the gospel, listen to a sermon, celebrate the eucharist, sing a song and go out. These could be seen as traditions.

It is the priest saying "Peace be with you" and the people of the church responding "And also with you."

Traditions are things outside of the order of service that are customs passed down from generation to generation. The celebration of Christ's birth is a tradition. The observation of Advent and Lent are tradition. The list of books accepted as canonical can be seen as traditions as can belief in the trinity.

[metalman]

We must be reading different history books. There is no religion or denomination that does not have blood on its hands when it comes to killing in the name of God and the making of martyrs..

To say that NO demoniations are free from 'blood on their hands' is certainly not based in historical fact. It is true that other so called christian churches have engaged in killing but nearly in the extreme sense and for the lengthy history the catholic church has. Multiple millions have been slain at the papacys hands. I realize this isnt politically correct to mention but I care not for PC'ness. Such notions call for history to be rewritten. I prefer the facts even if ugly.


Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. What does this mean to you? I would not like for anyone to ever tell me that beliefs and rituals I hold dear are nonsensical and pagan. Since I am a Christian, this is something I do not do.

The golden rule is a good one to live by. It means treat others how you wish to be treated. I love catholics. Some of my own family are catholic. I can honestly say there are many honest, God fearing people in that organization...theyre just honestly mistaken or have been mislead by their priests/popes. Telling them the truth is a very kind and loving thing to do. Certainly WAY better then letting them believe lies. For example...praying to Mary for forgivness of sin. Biblically, this is blasphemy. Mary is dead. She cant hear any prayers. She cant forgive anyone. Only God can. I have seen many a catholic rejoice in knowing the teachings of the Bible as opposed to catholic tradition. It was an overwhelming relief to them in many ways.




That is your opinion. Have you ever attend a service in a Jewish Temple? How can rituals and traditions be wrong if they were inherited from Judaism?

I respect that a form of devotion devoid of ritual is what works for some.
I obviously experience ritual in a different way. It facilitates my relationship with God. I do not feel close to God when I attend a protestant church where the service seems to revolve most around entertaining people in an audience. This is not worship to me. It is merely community. To me it is like going out to dinner and only having dessert. Eventually, I have to go get me a nice piece of meat.


The majority of meaningless nonsensical rituals of the catholic church were not inherited from the jews. I have intently studied catholic theology and that much is clear. In fact, in hardline catholic theology the jew is regarded as deserving death. Obviously, I do not concur.

The jewish religion has its own nonsensical rituals.

Jesus even told the jews that they made his religion of none effect by their traditions. He chided them for substituting the commandments of men for the doctrines of God. For this they killed him.

The "habit" of prayers, meetings etc or other worship wasnt what I was addressing.

The Bible is very clear on the principle of adding/adopting pagan rituals to worship God. The Bible says the things pagans do to worship their gods "He hates" and doing such is an "abomination". The Christian is supposed to have nothing to do with such.




I believe that my loving God wants me to worship in whatever way works for me the best.

Well you can certainly believe and practice what you wish but I can assuredly tell you without hesitation that the Scripture says otherwise.
And I mean no disrespect to you at all. Nor am I questioning your sincerity.

[metalman]

The observation of Advent and Lent are tradition.

Indeed. The tradition of advent has its roots in the pagan tradition of observing the birth of the sungod. (tammuz and others born dec 25)
The tradition of lent is known in the Bible as "weeping for Tammuz".
It is not spoken of in the positive sense.
Both good examples of pagan traditions renamed.

[Malana]

Indeed. The tradition of advent has its roots in the pagan tradition of observing the birth of the sungod. (tammuz and others born dec 25)
The tradition of lent is known in the Bible as "weeping for Tammuz".
It is not spoken of in the positive sense.
Both good examples of pagan traditions renamed.

Lent is before Easter... Advent is before Christmas...

You imply that renaming a pagan tradition is a bad thing. Remind me why you think this?

[metalman]

Lent is before Easter... Advent is before Christmas...

You imply that renaming a pagan tradition is a bad thing. Remind me why you think this?

Yes I know when they take place

Using any pagan worship methods or adoption of such customs is forbidden in the Bible for starters. That should be enough for any Christian.
Its not logical either. God has been plain enough in His Word about worship. Who are we to add to or subtract from it?
If I walked into the room where you were and shot you a smile and a middle finger would you think that was a good thing? Of course not. It wouldnt matter a bit if me and all my friends "adopted" that as a symbol for "hello, how are you". Its origin is still definitely negative and it still means the same thing it did before. Same with pagan nonsense which God says in His word that he hates. You really think he likes it once we little humans rename it? Not in the least.

"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

[Wodihor]

new to forum but well hell hi, and this is my opinion.

I have looked over some of what was said here ... i didn't read it all.

the holiday Christmas is celebratied by christians (beleivers in Christ the son of God). then where did the tree come from ... baby in a manger is all about Christ? The tree i beleive comes more from the "pagan" or celtic days of worship. It is winter solstic or something like can't rember off the top of my head, maybe equanox. and how about the presents?? well also to my understanding they came fomr some some town that infact had a "santa clause" although he is dead now the "spirit" of Christmas lives on. this man gave coal and switches to bad little boys and girls.

Here is problem 1. we live in america where we have the freedom to worship who we choose to, but we were founded and have been run by "prodostent"(sp) or Christian followers. all presidents have followed the path of christianity in some shape or form. we have never had a pagan, hindu, or any other religion represented as a president in this country. laws and moral right are all bias imho. Christians DO NOT like pagans. they are heitherns and are of witchcraft, according to the old testiment.

but really as far as the holiday goes. i don't much care at all... my family gets togeather... and we are just about to the point of not buying gifts anymore. we eat, have a good time catching up on everything and everyone. there are extrem people on all ends of the spectrem. I do not think that it is right to put Christ into every holiday. Easter is another one that is a pagan hoiday. it is the day celebrated for fertility and new growth. it is not for everyone the death and reserection of Jesus.

about the blood on hands deal. i would vote to say that 75% or more of all wars have steemed from some religious movment. and as far as the US goes... we do the same thing... we just call it a democrocy(sp). we as the US have infact inposed on many many religions. native americians to jsut hit the nail on the head from the get go...it is a religious war. always will be. spain killed because of religion a long time ago. well what about religions killing... "Christions"(US government) is stamping out a religion or part of it because they are a warring religion/tribe and appose us. Jews marched on cities and took the over according to the old testiment. it is not just the Roman empire but the Roman Chatholic Empire.

As much stand offish and touchy and sensitive a subject as religion is... peoples views of things will always hurt people that view differently and always will there be arguments. until all are one religion, ie the time of babolon in the bible. and if that time comes again then we will see end of days, also according to the bible. Christians will war because we are "spreading the word of God" to the people and converting the masses. and we do it mytholicaly to the point where we as a country appear to be right.

damn i knew i should have started posting to this... sorry for the rant... sorry to offend. peace and love to all merry meet and blessied be, happy chuinica(sp), and Merry Christmas. and any other peps out there i missed.

[ISAtlanta300]

new to forum but well hell hi, and this is my opinion.

I have looked over some of what was said here ... i didn't read it all.

the holiday Christmas is celebratied by christians (beleivers in Christ the son of God). then where did the tree come from ... .....



Dunno. Christians did not "invent" the christmas tree though..



baby in a manger is all about Christ?

Yes. He is believed to have been born in a manger or grotto, after nobody offered lodging.



..... and how about the presents??

What presents? Christians did not invent the "tradition" for presents under the x mas tree. Some allege that the present represent the presents given to baby Jesus by the three wise men, who bought him Gold and other stuff. Christians believe more in the "spirit" of christmas, which is about remembrance of His birth, Celebration of His birth, and peace to mankind, not about Santa Claus, presents and Macy's.



well also to my understanding they came fomr some some town that infact had a "santa clause" although he is dead now the "spirit" of Christmas lives on. this man gave coal and switches to bad little boys and girls.

That is but one of the many "theories" of gift giving. Some believe that there actually was a "bishop" named "Nicolas" who was known for his charitable spirit and gift giving. The Dutch celebrare "Saint Nicolas", which may have become "Santa Claus" when the Dutch emigrated to NY. And Saint Nicolas or "Sinterklaas" actually gives gifts on his birthday, December 5th. Again, it has nothing to do with Christmas as Christ's observed birth.


Here is problem 1. we live in america where we have the freedom to worship who we choose to, but we were founded and have been run by "prodostent"(sp) or Christian followers. all presidents have followed the path of christianity in some shape or form. we have never had a pagan, hindu, or any other religion represented as a president in this country. laws and moral right are all bias imho. Christians DO NOT like pagans. they are heitherns and are of witchcraft, according to the old testiment.

It is not about not liking pagans. It is about taking "Christ"'s observence, and bastardizing it, claiming it your own and then having the audacity to challenge its name. If you are not Christian, then you do not have to celebrate Christmas. Period. Just like Christians will not interfere with Kwanzaa or Hannukah. Call the tree whatever you want, call is Season's Greetings if you wish. But do not take Christmas from the Christians and try to coin it as your own Holiday, and pretend like you invented the "holiday" tree, and the "holiday of pines" or some shit.



I do not think that it is right to put Christ into every holiday

Nobody is putting Christ into your holidays. It is everybody else who wants the same holidays, but do not want to acknowledge their origin. Somehow, the Christians are always the target of this. "They have off on Good Friday. I want to have off too !! But I am not Christian, so let us call it "Bunny Rabit Friday"

Maybe you should call Yom Kippur "Mid week holiday day off day" or something? No. It IS YOM KIPPUR. It is what it is.


Easter is another one that is a pagan hoiday. it is the day celebrated for fertility and new growth. it is not for everyone the death and reserection of Jesus..

For Christians is it as much about the resurrections as it is pagan to everyone else. You chose to celebrate fertility and growth with the easter bunny, Christians celebrate it with Christ's resurrection. But IT IS WHAT IT IS. EASTER is about the resurrection of Christ. If you want to call it bunny day and hunt for eggs, so be it.



As much stand offish and touchy and sensitive a subject as religion is... peoples views of things will always hurt people that view differently and always will there be arguments. ..

Yes indeed. That is the way it unfortunately is. The thing that gets me is that nobody is questioning Hannuhak, No one is turning an eye at Kwanzaa. Christians have been tolerant and have virtually ignored how people chose to celebrate their holiday. But to try and take "Christ" out of Christmas is absurd. Like I said. If you want your own atheist holiday, you are free to do so. Make your own movement or own religion. Tell the government to give you a holiday called "PineTree Snowbirth day". You do not have to celebrate christmas if you don't want to. But don't try to tell christians how to celebrate and call their holiday.

[Malana]

Using any pagan worship methods or adoption of such customs is forbidden in the Bible for starters. That should be enough for any Christian. Its not logical either. God has been plain enough in His Word about worship. Who are we to add to or subtract from it?
If I walked into the room where you were and shot you a smile and a middle finger would you think that was a good thing? Of course not. It wouldnt matter a bit if me and all my friends "adopted" that as a symbol for "hello, how are you". Its origin is still definitely negative and it still means the same thing it did before. Same with pagan nonsense which God says in His word that he hates. You really think he likes it once we little humans rename it? Not in the least.

"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

I disagree. I think he loves my celebration of Advent, Christmas and Epiphany. I feel blessed when I observe it well. Where in the Bible do you believe there is proof that such custom is forbidden? What is your basis for saying that he doesn't like it?

I believe the Bible endorses this practice. One of the first problems encountered by the early Christians and documented in the New Testament was the resistance of pagans to keeping Kosher, being circumcised and in all other ways following Mosaic Law. Christianity was (and really is) a breakaway sect of Judaism. Early Christians lived as apocalyptic Jews who believed Christ was the Messiah and they were living in the end times. For them, all the previously imposed laws were still in play.

The pagans they met weren't buying it. Following Mosaic Law was just way too much work for them and they certainly didn't want anyone messing with their foreskins.

Paul was divinely inspired to cough up a new marketing plan recorded in the book of Galatians. He taught that the rulebook had been misunderstood and misused by Judaism. To Paul, the law was supposed to be a guide but strict adherence was not the path to heaven. Paul said salvation from sins and the defeat of the powers of sin and death came through Jesus, not the law. Believe in him is all you need. Christ's sacrifice is what gets us to heaven.

So... basically at this point… pagan ways were adopted. Paul said, "S’okay... keep your foreskins just go tell everyone else that Christ died for their sins."

Strict adherences to a rulebook allows the law to enslave you. Christ came to liberate us from that. So when I dress up and go trick or treating or decorate a Christmas tree, I am celebrating that he’s all I need.

I also think you grossly underestimate what it would take to convert a community of pagans. The conversion isn’t going to work by just talking it up. You have to co-opt those traditions. That’s the only way to make it stick. It is essentially the inverse of what happened in Japan when Samurai’s were no longer allowed to wear their top knot and carry their swords and what happened in Scotland and Ireland when the Queen of England outlawed the Highlander’s kilt, tartans and the playing of the pipes.

I would submit that co-opting traditions is the best way to effect change in a culture and convert a passel of pagans. To refuse to do so would be to give up on spreading the good news. It is tantamount to burying talents.

Martin Luther set about taking secular and sometimes downright bachanal music and giving it Christian lyrics while there were those of the same period that supported a "book burning" type approach to secular art. Luther said, "I'm not of the opinion that all arts are to be cast down and destroyed on account of the Gospel, as some fanatics protest... Why should the devil have all the good music?"


To refuse all celebrations on the basis of their pagan origin, lets the devil throw all the good parties. That's no fun.

[Malana]

Dunno. Christians did not "invent" the christmas tree though..

The short answer is that the Celts and the pagan Romans pretty much everybody pre-Christian, saw the winter solstice as a great time to party. The only way to get us... I mean them... *Malana wonders if her freckles and pale skin are showing* to stop running around naked under the full moon and having lots of sex was to give us something else to do like cutting down a tree and making lots of handcrafted thingies to hang on it.

The long answer is that evergreens have been a symbol of rebirth from ancient times. Bringing greenery into your house at winter solstice symbolized life in the midst of death in many cultures. The christmas tree was probably a descendent of the Yule tree. We think the word is a descendent of the Anglo-Saxon word 'geol' which eans feast. Probably the time of winter solstice for the Celts, Angles and Saxons was the time of a great feast. Solstices both Winter and Spring were celebrated with dancing and merrymaking.

The Romans also decked their homes with evergreens. They celebrated Saturnalia, which was a festival honoring the god of agriculture. Relaxed morality, general merrymaking, feasting and gift giving were all associated with Saturnalia. These tradtions and the traditions of other cultures were assimilated by Christians and given Christian meanings.

[metalman]

Now thats a non Biblical bunch of mumbo jumbo if I have ever heard it.
You "think" He loves your celebrations? You think so in spite of what He has already said? Please give a Bible text or two to support the notion that God loves the way pagans worship their false gods. Good luck finding any. ;)

From the Bible....

28] Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.
[29] When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
[30] Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
[31] Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
[32] What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Deut 12: 28-32

"For I am the LORD, I change not.." Mal. 3:6

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matt 4

[metalman]

The Romans also decked their homes with evergreens. They celebrated Saturnalia, which was a festival honoring the god of agriculture. Relaxed morality, general merrymaking, feasting and gift giving were all associated with Saturnalia. These tradtions and the traditions of other cultures were assimilated by Christians and given Christian meanings.

Yes indeed...pagan festivals of fertility & sun worship "given christian meanings"...or more accurately meanings invented by the roman catholic church and followers. These days werent included in any so called christian "worship" until the 3rd century AD during the Constantine era when much of the Truth of the Bible and Jesus Christ was sacrificed in favor of meaningless rituals of pagan orgin. ;)

[Malana]

Now thats a non Biblical bunch of mumbo jumbo if I have ever heard it.
You "think" He loves your celebrations?
Thanks! Yes! I feel God's grace and presence when I pray as I light the advent candles each evening before my dinner. I feel closer to him as I spend this time meditating about what the world was like before he came.

You think so in spite of what He has already said? Please give a Bible text or two to support the notion that God loves the way pagans worship their false gods. Good luck finding any. http://forums.importatlanta.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I'm not a pagan and I'm not worshiping a false God. I'm decorating a green tree that I've brought into my living room. I believe that to say doing so is sinful and against God's will smacks of bibilicism. It is legalistic and that in my opinon is a far more dangerous form of idolatry than my Christmas tree.

From the Bible.... <snip> [32] What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Deut 12: 28-32
And he quotes Deutoronomy... thank you. These are some of my favorite parts of Deuteronomy. Do you observe all of them?
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/proof_of_virginity/dt22_13.html
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_whole_family/dt13_06-08.html
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/religious_tolerance/dt13_13-15.html

I'm sure you do not. If we were keeping to that book in a really strict fashion, we'd all have been stoned to death by now.

I was taught by a protestant preacher that ultimately the old testament must be read through the light of the new. St. Paul taught us that Jesus came to free us from the hopeless bondage of legalistic, judgemental, abusive religion. "Since you are free in Christ, do not be bound again by a religious yoke of slavery." In Galatians 5:1

Strict observance of the laws of Moses is not necessary for salvation. Christ came and saved us from our sins. All we have to do is believe in him and then we will have eternal life. You seem to be promoting the idea that all we have to do is believe in him and make sure not to observe any holidays that used to have pagan origins. If anyone is adding to the message, it is you.

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matt 4
I am worshiping no God but God. He is the only one I serve.

"For I am the LORD, I change not.." Mal. 3:6
God is immutable, certainly, which is why the form I choose to worship him does not change him.

School teachers are taught to discover their own learning style because we tend to present information in the style that we learn from the best. An auditory learner will present things in an auditory manner. A visual learner will present in a visual manner. The trick for a good teacher is to realize that you may have learning styles varying from visual, auditory, gustatory, kinesthetic or some odd combination in your class. You have to learn to present the information in a each way so that everyone can get it.

Sharing the good news is the same. We need more than one way to get the message across because everyone will not experience God in the same way.

I see the beauty in the way you worship but it doesn't work for me. I have shared a passover meal, listened to the story and competed with the little kids trying to find the afikomen and found the beauty there too. I have sat on a blanket under some trees communicating without a shared language with women from Iran and watched with amazement at the joy they found in their obedience when it came time to turn toward Mecca and pray. I have chosen a liturgical Christian route. The paths we take do not change the objective. God is god.

Talk positively about your path. But when someone takes another way, don't follow after them shouting "You are going to hell if you don't do it my way!" That doesn't advance his kingdom. I believe it turns people away.

[metalman]

Again you make several incorrect assumptions.

First, although one is not bound by all the "laws of Moses" as pertaining to various feasts, handwashings, et etc that FORESHADOW the Christ, we are in fact bound by the principals contained therein. Those principles are consistent throughout the entire Bible. This is an area where so called christians like to make excuses, its human nature.

God is clear all throughout His Word regarding his view of heathen rituals.
Perhaps you may recall the story of King Saul. He assumed (much like you) that God would like and appreciate it when his disobeyed the principal of not bringing anything pagan into the worship of God when he saved the cattle. sheep etc of the Amalekites and THEN offered them as sacrifice to God. The response...TO OBEY is better the sacrifice. Same principle with Hophni and Phineas who offered "strange fire" before God and were struck dead.

Another incorrect assumption and conclusion you have JUMPED to is that I have said those that put up a tree and observe christmas in some way are "going to hell".
I have never stated anything such. I have merely pointed out the Bible principle (as opposed to your opinions & assumptions about it) regarding this and pointed out the origin and history so that we dont call things "christian" that actually are not. I have made no assumptions about who may be going to hell or not.

If "finding what works for you" was indeed all that was needed then God could have inspired his Word to be just a couple sentences. There is certianly more to Christianity then that. I am afriad that approach in fact that is in direct opposition to the Word. Sin is in fact "what feels good" and is to be forsaken by the power of God.
The road to Heaven is narrow yet the road to perdition is paved and wide.

That is really what I am addressing with most of my posts, that the so called christians of the world rarely consider the Bible in the behaviors, worship, lifestyle etc
That is the reason in a nutshell why christians are largely considered to be phony and hypocritcal. More adherence to the simple truths of the Bible and less "doing what I feel" would do Christs (universal) church much good.

This too is the example of Christ in his life on earth. He ignored the "traditions" of the church, he ignored the "commandments of men", he rebuked the church leaders who
mislead the people in their "it seems right" rituals and constantly replied to criticisms and questions with the words of Scripture, he demonstrated the principles of the old and new testament with his LIFE, and lived out those principles as an example to those to claim to follow him.

"My sheep hear my voice..they follow ME..."

[b@d @pple]

if god is real,he is laughing at you all ,simply because you fuckin people put so much faith in something that cant be proven...FUCK GOD AND FUCK YOU!

[metalman]

if god is real,he is laughing at you all ,simply because you fuckin people put so much faith in something that cant be proven...FUCK GOD AND FUCK YOU!

nothing like an intelligent responsive post :blah: :rolleyes:

I am thinking you might not recognize or aknowledge the "proof" if it slapped you in the face ...and I am afraid one day it will. Nonetheless, youre certainly free to pursue whatever belief or lack of it you wish.
I am all for freedom.

[b@d @pple]

nothing like an intelligent responsive post :blah: :rolleyes:

I am thinking you might not recognize or aknowledge the "proof" if it slapped you in the face ...and I am afraid one day it will. Nonetheless, youre certainly free to pursue whatever belief or lack of it you wish.
I am all for freedom.


its cool,thats a typical response from a christian anyway...."proof" that god exists or that jesus was the son of god,hah..thats funny...you sir have nothing to go by except your so called faith,the belief in the unproven.so please dont open your fuckin mouth to me about about what proof i lack recognition of...

[quickdodge®]

its cool,thats a typical response from a christian anyway...."proof" that god exists or that jesus was the son of god,hah..thats funny...you sir have nothing to go by except your so called faith,the belief in the unproven.so please dont open your fuckin mouth to me about about what proof i lack recognition of...

That what I always wonder. Where is the physical proof. Later, QD.

[metalman]

its cool,thats a typical response from a christian anyway...."proof" that god exists or that jesus was the son of god,hah..thats funny...you sir have nothing to go by except your so called faith,the belief in the unproven.so please dont open your fuckin mouth to me about about what proof i lack recognition of...

The proof you seek is all around you. The very body you inhabit, the earth you live in, the fact that a gracious Creator allows you to choose even to curse him...and on and on and on. The evidences are too numerous to list. The fact you cat see it, or dont wish to is your problem.
I find it interesting that people who choose to disregard God always seem angry about it. That in itself is quite telling. Among other things that itself is evidence of the concience God created within all of us.

Like it or not the day is coming for all...

"All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee."

"All those who go down to the dust shall bow before him, even he who can't keep his soul alive."

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear"

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God"

[quickdodge®]

The proof you seek is all around you. The very body you inhabit, the earth you live in, the fact that a gracious Creator allows you to choose even to curse him...and on and on and on. The evidences are too numerous to list. The fact you cat see it, or dont wish to is your problem.
I find it interesting that people who choose to disregard God always seem angry about it. That in itself is quite telling. Among other things that itself is evidence of the concience God created within all of us.


Again. That is what you believe is the proof. You don't know for fact that that is where everything came from. You believe that that is where everything came from. I believe in ghosts. I have evidence to back me up. Voices recorded when no one was around. I've never heard of anyone recording God's voice to show that he really exists. Later, QD.

[metalman]

Beliefs are based on what I can actually see. The fact you choose not to see is your choice. I have no problem with free choice.
Talking/listening to the spirits of devils is "proof" of God as well.
I certainly believe in those as well as the evidence for satan is just as much real and around us as the evidence for God.

[quickdodge®]

I don't talk/listen to devils. Spirits of people is who I deal with. I'm into into seances and tarot and that shit. I see just find. 20/20 everytime I have my vision checked. What you "see/hear" is with your mind. Which, again, goes back to believing. It isn't visual proof that you see with your eyes or ears. You don't actually see God making life, making trees grow, making it rain. You see the events happen, but you don't know for fact that God causes this. You believe God causes this. I'm not knocking you for beliefs, believe me. I believe in God. I've just always had questions. Who hasn't? Later, QD.

[{X}Echo419]

if god is real,he is laughing at you all ,simply because you fuckin people put so much faith in something that cant be proven...FUCK GOD AND FUCK YOU!
that's just a plain ingornant statement. By reading that I wonder how you were even able to type the letters yourself... come on admit it, mommie typed for you didn't she...
of course you can't "prove" it that's why it's called "faith" not science. I guess gravity dosen't exsist. we're all being held down by all of the air above you I guess.

[{X}Echo419]

85% of people in this country celebrate "christmas" and/or christians. 42% of people elected Bill Clinton president so why can't 85% call it christmas? also, why do we have Santa Clause, when everyone knows he has nothing to do with the birth of christ "biblically". I think this might help explain things, since "most of us white folk have ancestors from the region.
I had to look this up. It's isn't the American Santa Claus story by far...

In the fourth century a.d. St. Nicholas (in dutch called "Sinterklaas" or "Sint Nicolaas"; in german called "Sankt Nikolaus") was the bishop of Myra, which is now situated in Turkey. According to the legend, he saved his town from starvation. He is also said to have revived three dead children, and to have offered gifts of dowries to poor girls. Some sources say that he died on the sixth of December in 343. In 1087 his relics were taken to Bari in Italy. It is unclear why, according to the Dutch tradition, he comes from Spain. Possibly it has something to do with the fact that St. Nicholas was the patron of sailors. In the 17th century Holland was famous for its navigation. Maybe by contact with Spanish sailors this myth began. It could also explain why St. Nicholas has "zwarte (black) pieten" to help him because the Moors dominated Spain for several hundreds of years. (Another [more popular] explanation for "zwarte piet" being black is that he has come down the chimneys so often [see below] that he can't wash the dirt off.)

His legendary gifts of dowries to poor girls led to the custom of giving gifts to children on the eve of his feast day, 6 December. The companions of St. Nicholas (in Germany and Austria they are called "Knecht Ruprecht" or "Krampus") show the victory over evil. Together with his "pieten" he visits children to punish the evil ones and to reward the good ones. The worst punishment is to be taken to Spain in "zwarte piet's" bag out of which the good children get the sweets (called "pepernoten", "taai-taai", or "schuimpjes") and presents. A less radical punishment is to get the "roede" (rod) instead of presents. Nowadays there are not much evil children any more...

A few weeks before his feastday St. Nicholas comes to Holland (and Belgium) on his steamer with all his "pieten" and the presents which they prepared in Spain during the year. This event can be seen on Dutch television. From his arrival in Holland till his feastday the children can put their shoes in front of the fireplace. During the night St. Nicholas visits all the houses by travelling over the roofs on his horse, traditionally a white/grey (called "Schimmel" in dutch), and "zwarte piet" enters the houses through the chimney to put little presents in the children's shoes. Sometimes the children put straw, carrots and water near the shoe for the horse.

On the eve of his feast day St. Nicholas visits all children. After knocking on the door he gives them a bag full of presents (if they were good children). Early in the morning of 6 December, when he has visited everyone, he leaves and goes back silently to Spain, to come back next year.

More at...
http://www-astro.physics.ox.ac.uk/%7Eerik/sint/sint.html

now I rant... it;s a christmas tree! not a holiday tree, not a manora(spelling) tree or a kwanza(which is completly made up) tree! take christmas completely out of everything there is no TREE! this wouldn't happen anywhere else in the world. imagine you're in Thailand or any Buhddist country and you go to the local court house and you got to the local court house and tell the judge that you want to sue the gov't for having a giant golden buddah in public desplay or you live in india you tell someone that the cow in front of your building is offensive because of it's religous implications. you'll probally get bitch slapped. btw comparing "pagan rituals" to christian or anyother religous form of worship is just a backhanded way to belittle said religon by equating it to a bunch of savages dancing around a fire sacrificing a goat to the harvest god. so stuff that. I don't feeling like quoting parts of peoples posts and all that crap so I'll just say that those of you whom said, "no where in the bible does it say we should worship the birth of christ" you are correct. Does it say in the declairation of indepedence that we should "celebrate" the 4th of July? no it does not. the birth of christ is kinda of a big deal to christians. so they chose to celebrate it by giving gifts like the 3 wise men did and getting the family together, blah, blah.

if you didn't want to read all the crap I've posted above that's fine I understand, I'll just say this, "if you don't want to call it a christmas tree and call dec. 25th christmas. feel free toounch the time clock and go to work. so you won't be forced to "celebrate" it by the horriable christians. :2cents:

[ISAtlanta300]

I don't talk/listen to devils. Spirits of people is who I deal with.

Even you have to admit that this can be debated. Where is the proof that the voices of the "spirits" are actually from dead people? Did they tell you their name and carry on a conversation with you? What you have are snippets of video and audio that can be debunked by sceptics and scientists.

Mind you, I am not questioning your evidences. But even with sooo much evidence there is still so much speculation of what a spirit is, and isn't. You may believe that they are ghosts. Others may question your belief, but it does not change your faith, and that whatever they are, that they ARE there.

Same thing with christians. They chose to believe because what they see is evident of God's hand and creation. Just because you do not see it, does not change their beliefs.

Both of you could be wrong, but then again, both of you could be right.

Au revoir, IS3

[metalman]

Even you have to admit that this can be debated. Where is the proof that the voices of the "spirits" are actually from dead people? Did they tell you their name and carry on a conversation with you? What you have are snippets of video and audio that can be debunked by sceptics and scientists.



Indeed. Its such a simple stupid trick of the devil, its amazing how many poor souls fall for it. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that satan knows the details of the lives of the departed. He can easily impersonate them or reveal details of their lives. He appeared to Saul in the Bible imperosonating Samuel the prophet. That was right before Saul killed himself of course.
The fact that under a theocracy the children of Isreal were to kill any witches or necromancers...(those who talk to the "dead") should clearly indicate that there is absolutely no chance of it being anything BUT the devil as well.
If you believe in God that would require belief in his Word as well and that is VERY clear!

"No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.
But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you: yea, who knoweth not such things as these?
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

Speaking of the dead...

"His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them"

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence"

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest"

Being DEAD = NOT ALIVE ANYWHERE, not awake, no thoughts, no wisdom, no conscousness, no communication, nothing!


Quite a thread topic drift....as for Xmas...I have no problem with it, I just like to be clear that it is not now or ever been a true Christian thing...its simply glossed over, renamed pagan nonsense primarily brought about in later centuries by the catholic church, although there are other influences as well. The name Christmas doesnt offend me. Its not my name.

[b@d @pple]

that's just a plain ingornant statement. By reading that I wonder how you were even able to type the letters yourself... come on admit it, mommie typed for you didn't she...
of course you can't "prove" it that's why it's called "faith" not science. I guess gravity dosen't exsist. we're all being held down by all of the air above you I guess.


hah ignorant because its not what you believe,once again another typical statement......i undertsnad why it cal ed faith,the belief in something that cannot be proven,also known as a crutch..i think its entertaining for you to challenge my intelligence due to my beliefs,all of you are doing the work of "god"..judging non believers one by one!..so while this topic is always fun to debate...i have more important things to do..so enjoy

[{X}Echo419]

hah ignorant because its not what you believe,once again another typical statement......i undertsnad why it cal ed faith,the belief in something that cannot be proven,also known as a crutch..i think its entertaining for you to challenge my intelligence due to my beliefs,all of you are doing the work of "god"..judging non believers one by one!..so while this topic is always fun to debate...i have more important things to do..so enjoy

apparently you don't ^"undertsnad why it cal ed faith..." it's obvious that you can't read cause you couldn't read what you had written previously. I'm not challenging your beliefs or "judging" anyone. I'm challenging your ability to form a coherient thought. it is evident that you're not doing a good job of convincing anyone that you can. all I can hope is that you don't find some way to a voting station.

now I would like everyone reading this to take a few minutes and look at this. notice how he(the person whom I am quoting) does not address any of the points made in my post. All he(I'm assumin it's a he) does is revert back to the "typical statement" defense; it is similar to the "liar liar pants on fire" political stragety used by politicians and columinists today. :taun:

[b@d @pple]

well if we are gonna debate ..then here we go.

To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being. This, I think, is the only god that holds, since it is the only god that can be logically justified.

I think it makes most sense if god is female, because only women can give life. Something that even people in the Stone Age understood. Later when wars affected the cultural evolution, and men took control of society, god became male, but the female god still lives on in the expression "Mother earth". It should also be pointed out that an omnipotent god must be either androgyne or sexless. However, in most religions god is male so I will refer to god as 'he', 'him' etc.

Some people (Einstein for instance) believe in a god who is not a personal god, but a Spinozan kind of god. I claim that this god is not a god! To say that god is universe - by getting knowledge of the universe we get knowledge of god - is to redefine the meaning of the word god. This has nothing to do with the word god as it was defined by the "primitive" cultures which preceded our present civilization. He can be excluded with Occam's razor, and most important: Such a god does not hear prayers.

If god is not omnipotent there is nothing that prevents him from being a product of the universe. If that is the case, what makes god divine? Then god would only be an alien, a being of matter; probably containing flesh, blood and DNA like all life we know of. Everything god is able to do would be things that human beings also will be able to do, all his knowledge would be knowledge we will also achieve. In fact humans would be gods, which should lead to some strange kind of humanism!

Many people justify their faith with god as an explanation. What is the meaning of life? Where does time and space come from? Who created the physical constants? et cetera. Because we lack knowledge of these things - and maybe never will, since they are questions like "what is the color of a second?" or "how does sound taste?" - god is there as an explanation.

Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.

[b@d @pple]

lets keep going shall we..

these are the qualities of an omnipotent god

If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows:

* He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit").
* He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.
* He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.
* He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.
* He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?

[b@d @pple]

and this is the theodice problem

We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

[b@d @pple]

god is void

If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void

[b@d @pple]

i hope this argument has been informative....there are you happy this wasnt just a "typical christian" defense

[trini_gsr]

there's a lot of reaching in those arguments you posted. we could go into picking them out still, if you really wanna debate...but i think the thing to realise is that belief systems, be it religious or scientific, are usually based on unprovable assumptions.

for example, scientists don't yet have an sure explanation to where the matter came from that exploded with the big bang. they just assume that part and build from there. all of euclidean geometry is built on the assumed and unprovable 5 Postulates. and so on...

so it's really simple. you can either believe God exists and build from there, or you can believe God doesn't exist and build from there. it's all based on an assumption, that you should logically make given the facts. this can be argued in either direction. i personally believe in a higher power, because there are things that science has yet to explain (like why stuff like voodoo, witchcraft, etc works).

[b@d @pple]

agreed!

[metalman]

The overwhelming physical evidence for a Creator God is all around us.
The conclusions reached by that ramble/rant are seriously flawed in that it is all based on human intellect, reasoning, and deductions. Nothing physical at all. In fact the premise ignores all physical evidence. Its a series a reasonings that are designed to confuse the question rather then answer ANY question. This tactic is well known among a select group of people. It has a number of names but the one I think fits best is "fogging".
Thanks but I'll stick with the physical evidence. ;)

[metalman]

for example, scientists don't yet have an sure explanation to where the matter came from that exploded with the big bang. they just assume that part and build from there.

Some scientists have discovered radioactive "halos" in the foundation rock of the earth. These occurances last less then a nano second yet are frozen in granite. All non Creator theorys involve TIME and LOTS of it to form this rock. So much for that theory. ;)
Is there a more plausible answer? Yes...God spoke...and it WAS. Instantly!

As you say, "they just assume"....non Creator origin theory takes a great deal of faith and overlooking glaring evidence to believe.

[{X}Echo419]

everything "must" come from somewhere. an absolute nothingness can't create anything. it's like having an empty fish tank and expecting the fish to just appear. it's can't happen. believing some nerd in a dark room with a test tube tells you about the creating of everything sounds alot more stupid than believing in a higher power.

tring to understand the creation of the whole flippen universe with our technology and scientific abilities is like one of you trying balance the national budget alone with 1 calaulator. there is not way, your infantile minds couldn't handle it.

Einstein did many great things and some terriable ones too. but one thing he did not discover or prove the SOURCE OF ALL FRIGGIN THINGS EVER!

ya, got pwned on the "holliday tree" issue so ya need to go somewhere else with the topic advocating an issue that gets beat to death by up tight pricks on college campuses (spelling) everyday. an issue that "can't be proven" period. there's only 3 ways this can be found out for sure by any of us, 1.we die 2. God/Jesus slaps us all in the face and says "WTF, you talkin' bout' willis?" 3. one of our friends turns out to be an alien and right before the earth is destroyed were beamed abord an alien ship. after whice we go on an interstellar journey only to find out the the meaning to life is 42.

Merry Christmas! :rant:

[metalman]

ya, got pwned on the "holliday tree" issue so ya need to go somewhere else with the topic advocating an issue that gets beat to death by up tight pricks on college campuses



Thanks for the unsolicted "advice" :rolleyes: but I feel free to respond to whatever topical issues or questions arise in the course of any discussion.
I didnt get "pwned" on any holiday tree issue. Perhaps you didnt read carefully. I have no objection to the word christmas, having trees, or the american people celebrating it or not. I only pointed out the real meaning and orgin of it all and that in fact it was never a christian thing to begin with.

[ISAtlanta300]

well if we are gonna debate ..then here we go.

To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being

Wrong. God is an almighty entity. Beings are mortal.



This, I think, is the only god that holds, since it is the only god that can be logically justified.

Ain't that the truth. Someone mentioned somewhere before that belief is beyond logic and based on faith. Therefore, this holds true.


I think it makes most sense if god is female, because only women can give life. Something that even people in the Stone Age understood. Later when wars affected the cultural evolution, and men took control of society, god became male, but the female god still lives on in the expression "Mother earth". It should also be pointed out that an omnipotent god must be either androgyne or sexless. However, in most religions god is male so I will refer to god as 'he', 'him' etc.

Most people assume the "image" of God being an old man with a big, white beard sitting on a trone. While this image may have been immortalized in paintings to give us something to identify with, this is not the true image of God. That image is that of a man, and God is not mortal.

I already know what is coming "God created people in His image". Yes indeed. But what is our "true" image? This shell of decaying flesh? Or is our image truly what is inside of us? If the latter is true, and you can conceptualize it, you are on the first step of understanding the true nature of God.



If god is not omnipotent there is nothing that prevents him from being a product of the universe. If that is the case, what makes god divine? Then god would only be an alien, a being of matter; probably containing flesh, blood and DNA like all life we know of. Everything god is able to do would be things that human beings also will be able to do, all his knowledge would be knowledge we will also achieve. In fact humans would be gods, which should lead to some strange kind of humanism!

Therefore, God IS omnipotent.


Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.

Have you ever thought about God as the "originator" of everything? Again, that type of thought you formulated (or Googled) is tied to God as a human being bound to earthly physics and laws. God is not of this earth. Therefore, you can not explain Him with earthly logic.

[ISAtlanta300]

lets keep going shall we..

these are the qualities of an omnipotent god

If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows:

* He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit").
* He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.
* He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.
* He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.

Indeed. Those would be the characteristics of God.


* He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?

Good is good and evil is evil. Good can not do evil as much as water can be fire. What is your definition of evil? There is a wonderful example of this online somewhere that I have once read.

Let us put it like this. What is light? Light is the sun to you, right? Can you see light? Yes you can. You see it during the day. You can see its prism and its spectrum. You can see that true light is comprised of several layers of colors on various wavelengths and radio wave, yada yada yada. In fact, you can probably give me 1000' of analysis and proof of light.

Now what is darkness? Can you define it? The first thought that would come into your mind is "well, darkness is, dark... black... ". Yes, yes.. but Darkness is not a color, now is it? Can you see darkness? "wel yea," you would argue "if you walk into a room with no light, you can't see anything. Everything is black" BINGO. Jump all up and down, but the conclusion that you must come up with is that darkness is the ABSENCE of light. Take a look around. The sun sets, it becomes dark. Where there are no stars, it is dark. When you flick the lightswitch to off, it becomes dark. Therefore, Darkness is the absence of light. If there is light, darnkess fades.

The same can be applied to Evil. Evil is the absence of Good. God is almighty, and is all good. It can not be evil. It can create it though, and HE DID, to prove that he is almighty. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Devil.



Let's us take it a step further. Where does light come from? Light has a source. A lamp. The sun. The stars. All emit light. Light is created.

Can you create dark? Wel, can you? Can you darken a room that has light in it? the answer is "Only by removing the source of light". You can not come into a room with sunlight, and flick on a switch and make it dark. You have to close the drapes etc. Darkness is NOT created out of a source. Darkness is ONLY CREATED by removing the source of light !!

This is a perfect example about the paradox about good and evil. It is therefore not a coincidence that God is often referred as the source of light, and the Devil is referred as the prince of darkness.

Think about it. God is the lightbulb. He does not create darkness (evil) as a SOURCE. WE create Darkness by REMOVING the LIGHTSOURCE (God), out of our lives. The Devil can NOT create darkness (evil) as a source. He IS darkness (evil).

But ultimately the darkness (Evil) remains dependable and related to light (God). And while the light (God), is ultimately responsible for both, as a SOURCE, it can not BE both.

[ISAtlanta300]

and this is the theodice problem

We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

As explained above, evil in this world is not intended by God. It is created by our own absence of goodwill and his grace. Devil did not create evil. God created everything, even the devil. Therefore, God created evil.

Let's put it even further. It is generally agreed that God has both a good side and a "bad" side IN OUR EYES. The "bad" side is known by his wrath. The good is known by his creations and blessings.

God has the ability to create and kill. He can create universes and end them. Create the earth and destroy it.

And again, God is not mortal. Do not think of God as a man with white beard as much as you can think of the devil as a half-goat with horns.

[ISAtlanta300]

god is void

If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

This can be argued both ways. If God does not exist and did not create life and cosmos, then who did? If it was not "created" but "just is" then again, everything mustn't have a creator. If the big bang "just happened, just because", without God. then what is the theory behind it?


Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void

Then who created that void? You are bordering on theories that neither you or I can comprehend. We reach a point where 2 = 0. Neither side can be explained. If God is the source, the everything, something must have created everything. If God is NOT the source, and the creation of creation, is the result of some mathematical sum, then someone must have created that as well. In neither cases can something exist just out of nothing. So in either cases there must be a source. So both theories are right, and both are wrong. In our mind, it is the universal puzzle.

Our minds are only able to comprehend that something must come out of somewhere. That is the nature of humanity and of life. We originate. We can not comprehend something just being.

[HyPer50]

So there is alot of talk now b/c alot of gov't organizations that do xMAS trees have now changed the names to Holiday Trees, many school have taken xMAS out of theme songs in music class, etc...

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?


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me personally i really don't care i have come accustomed to xMAS themes though i am not a christian... but they are in grained in me b/c we are feed christian values everywhere in this country w/o choice; i think it is a big move for the gov't to seperate what was supposed to be a religious holiday w/ the greediest time of year ;)

To avoid going into a long rant (which I had already typed in) I'm just going to say I HIGHLY disagree with all this bullshit about "holiday".... The Christian holiday is Christmas, and the tree's we use are referred to as Christmas tree's. If you dont celebrate it, thats fine, but dont expect us to change OUR holiday to make you happy or "unoffended"... Fuck all you who are offended. (not directed torwards anyone specific, just in general)

[{X}Echo419]

I can't take it anymore! I have to say it!

Our planet and everything on it wa created as a project to find the meaning of life. What happened was aliens on a planet far far away wanted to know the meaning of life. So, they created a mega-super-gianormaous computer to figure out the meaning of life; and after many many many(the exact # escapes me right now) years it formulated an anwser...42. overcome with frustration the aliens decided that creeating a planet and closely observing it for millions and millions and millions of years they would discover the truth. we''ll you all can guess how that's going. :king: