Obama ...........delusional? or just outright deceitful

[Vteckidd]

Last night during his news conference he said something that really just made me go "DID THAT REALLY JUST HAPPEN?"

He said and i QUOTE:

"As a result of the actions we took in those first weeks, we've been able to pull our economy back from the brink,"

The comment was made after he said he had inherited the worst recession since the great depression.

Couple of Key Points:

1) Unemployment was at 7% when Bush Left Office IIRC, Obama passed Stim 1 cause if we didnt, 8% unemployment was going to happen. We are at 9.6% NOW and almost every economist even the FEDERAL RESERVE says we will top out 10% before the year is out.

The administration vowed to use stimulus policies to keep the jobless rate below 8 percent; it is now just shy of 10 percent.


2) Jobless claims have steadily continued to RISE DESPITE Stimulus 1 being passed. This month was 550,000 (50,000 more than expected)

3) As of now, only about 5-8% of the Stimulus money has been SPENT and is actually doing anything. Most economists estimate little to no jobs have been created since it was passed in FEB. The bulk of the money will not be spent until 2010. And this was a STIMULUS that had to be enacted NOW or we were certain for collapse :lame:

[Vteckidd]

Now onto this Healthcare FARCE

I keep hearing 3 lines that REALLY piss me off.

Obama Line 1
"If you like your coverage you can keep it"

That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. If you think for 1 second, that you can keep your existing health coverage under his plan please read up on what is going through congress RIGHT NOW. Here is how simple economics work, SUPPLY, DEMAND. Lets keep it simple shall we:

Lets assume his plan is going to cost you $50 per month. Your CURRENT Employers insurance costs $100 per month. On top of that like he said last night, he wants to TAX YOUR EMPLOYER AKA anyone making over $280,000 a year a surcharge to pay for the extra 1/3 cost of Healthcare he doesnt have in his budget.

Think about that. WHo do you think EMPLOYS YOU? The people making $280,000+. they are the bulk of Small Business. They are getting hit the hardest right now.

So do you really think your EMPLOYER who has these 2 Options A) Pay $50 for health care or half of what you are offering now or B) keep offering twice as expensive healthcare AND add a tax to that price.

HELL NO HE IS GOING TO GO WITH THE CHEAPER OPTION. Which means your coverage WILL CHANGE. It will change to the Government option.

Obama Lie #2
"The Healthcare system is broken and we cannot sustain it any more"

What is so broken about it? do things need to be changed? Absolutely. Changed in 30 days, no. Look they got the economy wrong. We passed a 787 Billion dollar stimulus cause it had to be done then or catastrophe was going to strike, and they were WRONG. He is pushing CAP and TRADE saying "If we dont pass these green jobs then we are in dire circumstances"

See a pattern here? Its Fear mongering plain and simple. Healthcare is expensive, but under him costs will RISE not lessen. YOu cant simply add 47 million people into the system that is ALREADY burdened with shortages in doctors and nurses and expect quality to IMPROVE.

Imagine waiting in line to see the new Star Wars movie (or Harry potter or whatever). YOu are 10 people back in line. All of the sudden 1000 people show up to see the same movie, but the movie theatre only seats 100 people. Movie theatre is your HOSPITAL. Sure before you were standing in line for a marginal wait to get in, now you have to wait HOURS ie MONTHS before you get to see the movie. YOu think its bad now, wait till all those people hit the system at the same time.

DId anyone notice he said he wanted to cover all 47 million people last night. What he didnt tell you is that 10-12 million of those people are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. So we cant find them to kick them out of the country, but we can find them to give them a free benefit paid for by the taxpayers? Genius.

Obama Lie #3
"I dont want to ration healthcare"

He has no choice BUT to ration care. The only way you cut costs in Medical care is
A) DENY TESTS/CARE
B) CUT WAGES IE DRIVE DOCTORS AND NURSES OUT

Look if a man or woman goes to school to be a surgeon, let him make $500,000. Im all for it. But what Obama wants to do is cap their salaries cause "they make too much". Thats going to drive people out of the medical care profession, and that is going to increase your wait time to see a doctor or specialist. I mean if you have 5 people for every doctor now, you really think its going to be better when its 100 people for every doctor?

How are you going to lower costs? He said it last night in plain english. He is going to tell YOU whether you are eligible for a test or not. He wants the medical profession to be more efficient, but since when is Govt been efficient at running ANYTHING?

Last night he said "I want to cut down on the patient going to this doctor, that doctor, getthing this test then that test, then the same test again....."

Obama isnt a doctor, WE PAY DOCTORS TO TAKE CARE OF US, dont we think the majority of them know what tests are needed and what is best for us? Tests arent absolute. Sometimes more tests and Xrays are needed. Sure there is some waste and fraud in there im sure, but thats the cost of doing business.

Fact is your doctor will be hamstrung and have to get approval from Washington DC before doing any major test on you. His pay will be cut drastically. They will tell you how and when to get care. This is how they will "cut waste" or at least that is what they will say. In reality its rationing care.


Obama and his underlings have figured out the 1 thing that matters, how to get votes.

They realize the following:

About 50% of the nations population, DONT PAY ANY TAXES and actually get money back through the EIC every year.

About 25% of the population pay very little to almost none in taxes

About 25% pay 86% of the nations total Income tax burden

Obama has realized (and the dems) that all they need is the bottom 50% which they get through offering entitlements like Free Healthcare and big welfare checks (I say welfare,not tax refunds because these people pay no taxes), and 1/3 of the middle 25% and they win elections. Period.

Hes pandering to an already poor or poorer population. Why should they care what taxes get imposed on the "rich" , its not their problem. Hes also going after the Latino vote by offering illegal immigrants healthcare, and you watch , he will offer them all amnesty soon.


I could go on but i think this is enough for now.

[81911SC]

Deceitful. He knows most of the American public will not look into the facts and that they will more than likely buy what he says. Which is sad but true. /End Metallica

[preferredduck]

my girlfiend had some other interesting points about this plan. you need surgery and there will be a lotto system in place for ti so population control is coming wow everyone thought i was crazy a year ago but alot of the things i have said have come to be. i need to find an asland in the pacific and move there and take animals and crops and get the hell out of dodge while i still can.

[carbon_crash]

I find it completely retarded that Obama wants to cap Dr. salaries "cause they make too much" when pro athletes collect way more and have very little responsibility compared to a doctor

[BanginJimmy]

I find it completely retarded that Obama wants to cap Dr. salaries "cause they make too much"

Should ahve stopped right there to prevent an ignorant statement. It is not the govt's place to cap salaries on anyone but federal employees. This is like my employer telling your employer, who is in the same market, that he can only pay his employee's X dollars a year.

[carbon_crash]

Should ahve stopped right there to prevent an ignorant statement. It is not the govt's place to cap salaries on anyone but federal employees. This is like my employer telling your employer, who is in the same market, that he can only pay his employee's X dollars a year.

So you saying my statement was ignorant? I think it is ridiculous for the govt to limit anyone's pay unless they are your employer. Did you misunderstand what I said originally? I was making an example out of the rather large amounts of $$ pro athletes collect for "entertainment" when Doctors actually serve a purpose and should be entitled to make whatever they want

[preferredduck]

So you saying my statement was ignorant? I think it is ridiculous for the govt to limit anyone's pay unless they are your employer. Did you misunderstand what I said originally? I was making an example out of the rather large amounts of $$ pro athletes collect for "entertainment" when Doctors actually serve a purpose and should be entitled to make whatever they want

i wouldn't let micheal vick operate on me at all, i might have a dog in my ass afterwards!!! LOL i see both of your points, the gov't should only regulate gov't employees pay and not a dr's pay

[BanginJimmy]

So you saying my statement was ignorant? I think it is ridiculous for the govt to limit anyone's pay unless they are your employer. Did you misunderstand what I said originally? I was making an example out of the rather large amounts of $$ pro athletes collect for "entertainment" when Doctors actually serve a purpose and should be entitled to make whatever they want

I didnt misunderstand you, it was an ignorant statement. You are saying that profession A is overpaid and profession B is ok. Your time and skills are worth whatever someone will pay you for them, not a penny less. If you can get someone to pay you 1M a year to bag groceries at Kroger, then that is what you are worth. It doesnt matter that a cashier is only making minimum wage.

[SampaGuy]

Don't all nations strive to diminish the gap between the rich and the poor to expand the middle class? Isn't that exactly what he is doing here? Not saying that its fair. This is directed at the OP.

[SampaGuy]

I didnt misunderstand you, it was an ignorant statement. You are saying that profession A is overpaid and profession B is ok. Your time and skills are worth whatever someone will pay you for them, not a penny less.


Yes, that is the way it should be. But if Mr. Obama doesn't want it that way and we can't do anything about it, shouldn't he at least target athletes and the other overpaid extremes rather than doctors? I think this is carbon_crash's opinion and I don't see anything wrong with it.

[tony]

I didnt misunderstand you, it was an ignorant statement. You are saying that profession A is overpaid and profession B is ok. Your time and skills are worth whatever someone will pay you for them, not a penny less. If you can get someone to pay you 1M a year to bag groceries at Kroger, then that is what you are worth. It doesnt matter that a cashier is only making minimum wage.

If that is the case then Malpractice Lawsuits should not be capped either, you can cap their liability but not their salary? Interesting..

On Obama's plan, its one of those either you're against it or for it. If you're paying $200+ a month for medical insurance I don't see why anyone in that situation would be against reform. As I stated before, other countries rising economically have a universal plan and the healthcare industry is flourishing in those countries. All I can say is I support the universal plan that benefits those who have a harder time affording coverage rather than the current plan where people like myself can afford coverage but those that have lower wages and a larger family cannot.

[Andyc3020]

a doctor cant make 500k a year, but a baseball player can mkae 4 million a year....

who is being paid too much again?


not that it matters. it is supply and demand. it is capitalism. that is how our country is run.

im going to go with deceitful

[Vteckidd]

The problem with the pro sports analogy is that they are making money.

The Auto Industry workers were overpaid, why, because their companies couldnt make a profit. NBA players and NFL, Baseball, they arent overpaid because their teams are making money and can still afford them.

Doctors get paid a different way the majority of them get re-imbursed through insurance claims and other stuff.

Tony, how do you expect to cover 47 million more people when we already have a shortage of doctors and nurses. No other developing nation has the population we do. The only places that have healthcare similar to what Obama and the Dems want is CANADA and France, and we know how bad those places are.

[BanginJimmy]

If that is the case then Malpractice Lawsuits should not be capped either, you can cap their liability but not their salary? Interesting..

Liability and damages are 2 different things. Liability should absolutely be capped while punitive damages should not be. With that said, tort reform is an absolute must if you want to have any shot and bringing healthcare costs down. Every sector of healthcare does excessive testing for nearly every illness because if the standard round of testing misses something, they will probably get sued for malpractice.


On Obama's plan, its one of those either you're against it or for it. If you're paying $200+ a month for medical insurance I don't see why anyone in that situation would be against reform. As I stated before, other countries rising economically have a universal plan and the healthcare industry is flourishing in those countries. All I can say is I support the universal plan that benefits those who have a harder time affording coverage rather than the current plan where people like myself can afford coverage but those that have lower wages and a larger family cannot.

As I have said before, if you are paying less than 300 a month for healthcare you will spend more with socialized healthcare and get lesser care in the process. Taxes will have to go up significantly to pay for this.

Next you will want to say we have a choice right? You could not possibly more wrong. This bill is designed to eliminate private insurance and force everyone onto the govt plan.

If I wasnt married, I wouldnt pay for anything more than a major medical plan that covers anything more than 2k or so. I VERY rarely goto the doc and I can afford a dentist visit every 6 months for less than I pay for insurance. Under the House plan, I would be fined an additional $2500 a year. How do you like that choice?

[Tracy]

Dan is pissed because he will be forced to pay a huge amount for health care for our staff. We will go out of business if we have to do that.

[BanginJimmy]

Dan is pissed because he will be forced to pay a huge amount for health care for our staff. We will go out of business if we have to do that.


He could save money by simply paying the 8% fine.

[Tracy]

He could save money by simply paying the 8% fine.Oh, I didn't know about that. Ha Ha. I will have to tell him that.

[tony]

Liability and damages are 2 different things. Liability should absolutely be capped while punitive damages should not be. With that said, tort reform is an absolute must if you want to have any shot and bringing healthcare costs down. Every sector of healthcare does excessive testing for nearly every illness because if the standard round of testing misses something, they will probably get sued for malpractice.



As I have said before, if you are paying less than 300 a month for healthcare you will spend more with socialized healthcare and get lesser care in the process. Taxes will have to go up significantly to pay for this.

Next you will want to say we have a choice right? You could not possibly more wrong. This bill is designed to eliminate private insurance and force everyone onto the govt plan.

If I wasnt married, I wouldnt pay for anything more than a major medical plan that covers anything more than 2k or so. I VERY rarely goto the doc and I can afford a dentist visit every 6 months for less than I pay for insurance. Under the House plan, I would be fined an additional $2500 a year. How do you like that choice?

Is it forcing or is it cheaper? As with the case in Hawaii people were not forced to move their children off of the plan they had, they CHOSE to go with the cheaper coverage, Capitalism right? Individuals still have the option to maintain their employer coverage or buy private insurance, nobody is being forced to do anything. Your verbiage sounds like it comes straight from Republican rhetoric rather than actual critical and factual arguments. Is the plan expensive? Yes it is but accomodations can be made (Such as the cut of the F-22 program for example) to better the quality of life of the people in this country.

On average the cost of the Uninsured as it is now is $1,000 per family (Source: https://www.policyarchive.org/bitstream/handle/10207/6261/Paying_a_Premium_rev_July_13731e.pdf?sequence=1) so while you may be afraid of the tax burden I'll be relieved that these people will have coverage AND I wont be taking up their uninsured costs any longer.

[tony]

Tony, how do you expect to cover 47 million more people when we already have a shortage of doctors and nurses. No other developing nation has the population we do. The only places that have healthcare similar to what Obama and the Dems want is CANADA and France, and we know how bad those places are.

You just created more jobs in the country, hmm.. not a bad idea considering the unemployment rates.

[Tracy]

My friends in Canada say they love the health care system.

[Vteckidd]

You just created more jobs in the country, hmm.. not a bad idea considering the unemployment rates.
Who will want to be a doctor or nurse now if they are going to make LESS money, and oh by the way, you will be told how to administer care. And guess what doctor/specialist, thanks for your 10 years of hard work through medical school, you know how im going to reward you? Im going to tax you because you make over $280,000 a year to pay for the very people im telling you how to treat.

you realize that many doctors go into business for themselves and hold their own private practices. How are they going to do now that they get told what they will be paid, they will have to ration care, and we are going to raise their taxes?



This will create just as many jobs as the stimulus plan did.

[tony]

My friends in Canada say they love the health care system.

So do those in France, Britain.. their system is not that great but you still get coverage. I assume Dan would be a bit more at ease if he didn't have to worry about covering his employees and they could afford their own coverage.

[Vteckidd]

Dan is pissed because he will be forced to pay a huge amount for health care for our staff. We will go out of business if we have to do that.

So will Mainstream, Topspeed and any other business owner. If you dont provide the healthcare you will be fined. to me that is rediculous.

Healthcare shouldnt be mandated, and if the Govt doesnt know, its the number 1 leading killer of small business. Places with under 10 people employed cannot afford healthcare its too expensive. The answer isnt to MAKE the provide it.

I mean which would Brandon rather have , healthcare or a JOB?

[tony]

Who will want to be a doctor or nurse now if they are going to make LESS money, and oh by the way, you will be told how to administer care. And guess what doctor/specialist, thanks for your 10 years of hard work through medical school, you know how im going to reward you? Im going to tax you because you make over $280,000 a year to pay for the very people im telling you how to treat.

you realize that many doctors go into business for themselves and hold their own private practices. How are they going to do now that they get told what they will be paid, they will have to ration care, and we are going to raise their taxes?



This will create just as many jobs as the stimulus plan did.


Hmm.. a job as a Dr/Specialist making maybe $70k-$90k as opposed to the alternatives out here right now which is next to nothing. Who out here is going to say, nahhh I don't want to be a doctor because I can't make $280k a year?

Its the same people who decide to become teachers for less than $30k a year, firefighters and policemen barely hitting $40k a year. I don't know about you but I didn't join the military for the pay, I did it because it is what I love to do. Trust me, I'd rather have the passionate professional who isn't there for salary as opposed to the one who went through med school to uphold a certain lifestyle.

[81911SC]

I just can't fathom who would support this shit.

[Vteckidd]

My friends in Canada say they love the health care system.
they are in the VAST minority then.

They prob love it because if it didnt exist they would have no care anyway. Its about choice really.

Anyone i have ever talked to in canada, UK say the system is horrible and driving people bankrupt.

These facts DO NOT LIE

The Average waiting between the time patients first saw their family physician and the time they actually got treated is 18.3 weeks. In 1993 in Canada it was 9.3 weeks. Is it reasonable to have to wait 4 months for treatment?

Less than half-44 percent- of all new drugs approved by the Canadian government in 2004 were covered by the govt insurance program. To get them? Over a 1 year wait on AVERAGE.

1.7 Million canadians, about 5 %, couldnt access a family physician in 2007

4 Years ago the average waiting time in a non urgent cardiac surgery in Manitoba was 19 days. Today it is 77 Days

Colon cancer rates are much higher in Canada (6.8 per 100,000) united states is 4. 7 per 100,000. Oh but in Canada the death rate for Colon Cancer is 41%, here its 34%.

Breast Cancer death rates? Higher in canada by 16%

Why? Cause they ration care, and the govt decides how to treat you. It doesnt work, period

[David88vert]

I pay $200 month for excellent health and dental coverage through my employer's plan with Blue Cross/Blue Shield for myself, my wife, and my daughter. Obama's plan will give us much less access to care, more delays, and higher overall cost - and that is a fact.

[Tracy]

they are in the VAST minority then.

They prob love it because if it didnt exist they would have no care anyway. Its about choice really.

Anyone i have ever talked to in canada, UK say the system is horrible and driving people bankrupt.


They are actually millionaires. They own an oil business and have 5 homes in Jamaica...where we hang out when we go.

I think we should come up with something, but I am not educated enough to say what. I only know that if it is done this way, we won't make it. And Brandon would rather have a job.

[Vteckidd]

Hmm.. a job as a Dr/Specialist making maybe $70k-$90k as opposed to the alternatives out here right now which is next to nothing. Who out here is going to say, nahhh I don't want to be a doctor because I can't make $280k a year?

Its the same people who decide to become teachers for less than $30k a year, firefighters and policemen barely hitting $40k a year. I don't know about you but I didn't join the military for the pay, I did it because it is what I love to do. Trust me, I'd rather have the passionate professional who isn't there for salary as opposed to the one who went through med school to uphold a certain lifestyle.
You cannot compare a teacher making 30K a year to a Doctor that makes $280,000 a year tony.

A Dr. Comes out with AVERAGE $200,000 in LOANS he has to pay back. He is not going to go through 10 years of study to make $80,000 a year.

Would you ?

Teacher 4 year degree
Police/Firefighter, no degree 10 month training program

You are going to compare those to what it takes to me a HEART SURGEON? are you serious? Not everyone is going to sit around and sing koombaya because the job market sucks. Doctors deserve a certain amount of pay and respect, they should get it IMO.

The answer to healthcare is not rationing it and lowering wages. That will have the opposite effect on things. The answer is to find ways to lower cost by eliminating waste and fraud.

Look 70 % of america has healthcare RIGHT NOW through their employer or some other means. Of the 47million that dont

12 Million (some say as high as 18-20 million) are illegal immigrants. so take that away.

Whats left are 2 groups of people
1) People who CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE INSURANCE
2) People who cannot afford insurance

Category 1 are usually people mid 20s early 30s with no family, making over $40,000 a year, generally in good health and just see it as an expense. You now want to FORCE them to have coverage

Category 2 are usually middle to low income familes, more than 1 kid, make less than $40,000 a year and they cannot afford private insurance. However, there is care available for their family through the govt, its already provided. The states have programs like ga has Peach Care for children, etc.

So in reality VERY FEW are "not covered"

[BanginJimmy]

Is it forcing or is it cheaper?

The house plan does force people onto the govt option because of costs. First, there is a $2500 fine if you decide you dont want health insurance. Second, a private company is required to pay for health coverage or pay a fine equaling 8% of their payroll. Third, healthcare benefits will be taxed at the corporate income tax rate. Considering those last 2 things, a small to medium sized business is forced to drop their coverage and simply pay the 8% fine as it will be far cheaper.



As with the case in Hawaii people were not forced to move their children off of the plan they had, they CHOSE to go with the cheaper coverage, Capitalism right?


This isnt about competition, it is about using unfair business practices. Hawaii is actually a perfect example. It was designed to cover the kids without insurance, exactly like the house plan is. Instead, everyone moved to the free coverage. According to the Gov of hawaii, 85% of the kids on the plan had insurance before joining the govt one.


Individuals still have the option to maintain their employer coverage or buy private insurance, nobody is being forced to do anything.

Go back to my first response. And if you do decide to keep your own healthcare, you will be forced to pay for both plans instead of just your own.




Your verbiage sounds like it comes straight from Republican rhetoric rather than actual critical and factual arguments.

And yours are just as empty as Obama's talking points. Completely ignore details in favor of talking points and rhetoric. Read the bill. There is nothing in there that will maintain current care standards. There are provisions for an appointed board to determine what coverage levels certain people should get. There is also plenty of talk about heavily reducing a doctor's compensation to reduce costs.



Is the plan expensive? Yes it is but accomodations can be made (Such as the cut of the F-22 program for example) to better the quality of life of the people in this country.

Cutting the f-22 program completely will not pay 1% of the costs of this. All I have heard so far as ways to pay for this is cutting medicare and tax the rich.


On average the cost of the Uninsured as it is now is $1,000 per family (Source: https://www.policyarchive.org/bitstream/handle/10207/6261/Paying_a_Premium_rev_July_13731e.pdf?sequence=1) so while you may be afraid of the tax burden I'll be relieved that these people will have coverage AND I wont be taking up their uninsured costs any longer.

Why is it my responsibility to buy someone else's insurance? EVERY group, including the CBO, that has looked at the house plan says it will lower quality and raise costs.

[Vteckidd]

They are actually millionaires. They own an oil business and have 5 homes in Jamaica...where we hang out when we go.

Interesting none the less. But they can prob afford to go somewhere else if they ever got a serious illness.

For instance there was a story of a lady with a Brain Tumor. She needed surgery. Because she was 47, Canada was apprehensive of operating on her. Her survival rate was very low. Canada told her it would be 9-12 months before she could see a SPECIALIST to SCHEDULE her operation.

She fled to the USA, was operated on in 2 months, and she lived. Had she waited 9-12 months in canada she would have died.

thats just 1 story

[Andyc3020]

is all goes back to having rich people pay to take care of poor people

read the bill of rights. i dont see a right to healthcare.

we have equil opertunities, not always equil results.

its so basic. its so simple. so why does obama insist on ignoring these basic values?

[BanginJimmy]

Hmm.. a job as a Dr/Specialist making maybe $70k-$90k as opposed to the alternatives out here right now which is next to nothing. Who out here is going to say, nahhh I don't want to be a doctor because I can't make $280k a year?

Would goto school for 10 years and spend nearly half a million dollars on education related expenses to making 70-90k a year? I know I wouldnt.


Its the same people who decide to become teachers for less than $30k a year, firefighters and policemen barely hitting $40k a year. I don't know about you but I didn't join the military for the pay, I did it because it is what I love to do. Trust me, I'd rather have the passionate professional who isn't there for salary as opposed to the one who went through med school to uphold a certain lifestyle.

A teacher MIGHT have a masters and have 50k in their education. A cop or fireman in GA more than likely have only a HS education and later on get an assoc. or BA.

[Tracy]

is all goes back to having rich people pay to take care of poor people

read the bill of rights. i dont see a right to healthcare.

we have equil opertunities, not always equil results.

its so basic. its so simple. so why does obama insist on ignoring these basic values?

We aren't rich by any means. I can tell you that...but based on our GROSS income, it seems that way. Based on these tax and health care proposals, we are rich.....but will go out of business if any of it happens. So it is def flawed.

[Vteckidd]

We aren't rich by any means. I can tell you that...but based on our GROSS income, it seems that way. Based on these tax and health care proposals, we are rich.....but will go out of business if any of it happens.
thats the point.

You are "rich" because on paper it says some number that is above the "line" that obama says is "too much"

He will raise your taxes, you wil go out of business.

Sounds like the end of the recession to me :screwy:

[Tracy]

thats the point.

You are "rich" because on paper it says some number that is above the "line" that obama says is "too much"

He will raise your taxes, you wil go out of business.

Sounds like the end of the recession to me :screwy:

I agree that this isn't the right way, but I feel like the way it is now is not the right way either. It is going to be a long hard road for sure. I'm glad we have friends in Jamaica. It is seeming less and less corrupt by the day if you compare it to the US :D

[Vteckidd]

Trust me i was scoping things out when i was in the caymans too. I think i could live on a lot less money and be happy :)

[Tracy]

Trust me i was scoping things out when i was in the caymans too. I think i could live on a lot less money and be happy :)It will happen for us. Already in the works :)

[EJ25RUN]

Plan is BS.

Anyone who supports it will believe whatever lie Obama wants to add to our debt.

[tony]

My talking points sound like they come from Obama but I havent even listened to him as of late, all of my talking points come from my own research because I realize even Obama will put a tint on things to make his plan seem perfect, just like a lot of you are quoting opinions and half truths.

The further north you go in Canada yes the longer the time you wait due to health professionals and facilities being less accessible in those provinces but in the well populated areas you are getting prompt attention to your medical needs.

Honestly I was against Obama pushing this plan without bipartisan support but it seems the opposition to this barely oppose the plan for its content and rather for political reasons. I'm sure if Mitt Romney or McCain was proposing this it would be golden, and for that I hope Obama pushes through a universal plan without any care for Bipartisan support or even "blue dog democrats." He will.. its the way Republicans would have pushed their agenda anyway.

[Vteckidd]

I really could give a shit why the republicans are blocking it im just glad they are. I think there is nothing in this plan that they want to support.

And what they said is right. Obama has a huge majority, in reality they dont need republican support at all. What the republicans said was IF WE STOP HIM HERE, IT WILL BE A TURNING POINT.

What is wrong with that? Obama has been spending out of control on issues he cant possibly fathom or have a grasp on. The republicans have been powerless to stop him. But now, this issue, healthcare, is really resonating with people. And its the DEMS that are blocking it not the republicans. The blue dogs are the ones blocking the legislation right now.

And Mccains plan was nowhere near this socialistic


McCain's main pillar is the elimination of a tax break that employees receive if their employer provides their health care. That may not sound like a shocker, but it is. The exclusion dates from World War II, when the federal government imposed controls on wages, but allowed companies to compete for workers by offering tax-free health benefits in lieu of pay. The law is largely responsible for the nightmarish patchwork of corporate-provided medical plans we enjoy so much today. Employees and their unions demanded richer and richer packages, and employers complied, since they could buy far more benefits for their employees than workers could buy with after-tax dollars on their own. Americans have paid a steep price, however, by sacrificing their raises as corporate insurance bills exploded, never more so than now.

McCain suggests that we junk all that. Say you're earning $100,000 a year and your company provides about $9,000 toward your $12,000 family premium, which is about average. Today you're taxed only on the $100,000. Under McCain's plan, you'd also pay on the $9,000. That could mean an extra $3,000 or so in federal taxes alone. To compensate for the extra levy, McCain would provide a $2,500 federal tax rebate for individuals and $5,000 per family, meaning a family would simply subtract $5,000 from its tax bill, the equivalent of a big cash payment.

Here's where it gets interesting. Employers would no longer be able to buy more health care with $9,000 of their employees' money than the workers could buy on their own. The raison d'être for corporate health benefits would vanish. Employers have another compelling reason to pass the ball to the employee: While wages are rising around 3% ayear, their health-care costs are growing at three times that rate. "I predict that most companies would stop paying for health care in three to four years," says Robert Laszewski, a consultant who works with corporate benefits managers. Hence, an employer that pays $9,000 for your benefits would simply pack an extra $9,000 a year into your paycheck. (Why? Because in a competitive labor market, companies would have to hand over that cash to employees or risk losing them.) So you'd have $6,000 after tax, plus the $5,000 family credit, to buy insurance. That's $11,000 in new cash that employees can set aside for health care.

So what types of policies would they buy? Employees (and their families) with corporate plans - about 150 million Americans - would probably rush toward high-deductible, low-premium insurance, and use what's left over to pay cash for routine procedures. They would couple those high-deductible policies with Health Savings Accounts, which allow families to put away up to $5,800 ayear, before taxes, for medical expenses. Those plans cost about $10,000. That's not a huge saving from the typical $12,000 corporate plan, but it's a start. More than four million Americans already have HSAs, and the McCain plan would make portable, high-deductible plans the product of choice for a new generation of healthcare consumers.

Besides eliminating the employer exclusion, McCain's plan boasts another nice feature. It would allow consumers to choose an insurance plan that suits their stage of life. If you're young and healthy, for example, you probably want the cheapest plan you can get. If you're 45 and have four dependents, maybe you want something a bit more expensive and generous. Nine states, including New York, California, and Texas already require that as many as 50 benefits be covered, a list that ranges from in vitro fertilization to mental health services to prescription drugs. These requirements increase the cost of insurance; they're a major reason young people have dropped their coverage. Under the McCain plan, insurers in any state would be free to offer the plans with a vast variety of deductibles, co-pays and benefits. UnitedHealthcare and Blue Cross/Blue Shield plans already provide a menu of packages tailored to groups as varied as Gen Xers and retirees.

The problem with McCain's approach - and it is a huge problem - is that McCain ventures so far toward total laissez-faire liberty that he risks leaving the poor and sick behind. Here's why. Perhaps his most drastic proposal is allowing the same insurance products to be sold across state lines. That seems to make sense, and maybe it does: Look what interstate banking has done for pricing and choice in financial services. But in health care, the upheaval would be so brutal that it scares even the most ardent free-marketer. Many states have some form of what policy wonks call "community rating." Under pure community rating, insurers must charge all customers the same premium no matter whether they're 20 or 55, or whether they have cancer or are models of good health. McCain is targeting community rating for good reason. It forces the young and healthy to pay far more than their actual cost by making them subsidize the elderly and sick. Like the mandated benefits, it's pushed millions of Americans in their 20s to drop their health insurance.

But under the McCain plan, states with no restrictions - Pennsylvania, for example - could sell policies for 25-year-olds that cost around $1,200 a year, one-third the price in New York. Young New Yorkers would drop their plans in favor of Pennsylvania providers, forcing New York insurers to jack up premiums for people in their 50s or early 60s, who need those rich, community-rated plans that cover as many procedures as possible - but who no longer benefit from the excessive premiums paid by the youngsters. It gets worse. Anyone with cancer, diabetes, or other pre-existing conditions will see their premiums multiply too.

To his credit, McCain does have a plan for relatively young, low-income Americans who can't afford insurance. "We would increase the tax credit according to income so that poor families could buy insurance," says Douglas Holtz-Eakin, McCain's policy director. But McCain sorely lacks a plan for people in their 50s without corporate benefits, and Americans with pre-existing conditions, who would be brutally stripped of coverage if insurance crosses state lines. "For his plan to work, McCain has to tell us how he would deal with the old and sick," says Jon Gruber, an MIT economist. "If McCain doesn't tax the healthy to pay for pre-existing conditions, as happens under community rating, he has to tax the taxpayer. That means his plan will require huge subsidies he's not talking about."


There it is in black and white the good and bad. He still wanted the people to be able to choose their own healthcare. Im not saying his is right, but it makes more sense than Obamas

[BanginJimmy]

My talking points sound like they come from Obama but I havent even listened to him as of late, all of my talking points come from my own research because I realize even Obama will put a tint on things to make his plan seem perfect, just like a lot of you are quoting opinions and half truths.

Everything Obama has said is a lie or half truth. There is nothing you have said that is not a talking point for Obama. All of which have been proven false.



Honestly I was against Obama pushing this plan without bipartisan support but it seems the opposition to this barely oppose the plan for its content and rather for political reasons. I'm sure if Mitt Romney or McCain was proposing this it would be golden, and for that I hope Obama pushes through a universal plan without any care for Bipartisan support or even "blue dog democrats." He will.. its the way Republicans would have pushed their agenda anyway.

All liberals want bipartisan support so they can deflect some of the blame from themselves when it goes to hell. Just like they did still the 787B pork bill that was so important.

Trust me, conservatives wouldnt even consider proposing this bill. McCain might though.
What have republicans pushed through and ignored dems? Cant say patriot Act, dems supported that. Cant use Iraq, dems supported that. Its like like you are trying to justify a bad bill by ignoring the facts and throwing around baseless accusations. Why not just read the bill and think about how it will benefit Americans as a whole. This bill hurts more people than it will help by 5:1 odds.

[tony]

What we have here is a simple difference of ideology. You and Jimmy continually bring up the business owner, the business and the doctor. I continually bring up the people and what is right for the backbone of the U.S, the middle class. Those businesses you quote only exist because the common man allows them to, those salaries don't fall out of the sky, so if there is anyone whose needs should be addressed first it is those people.

Tax me, I don't care.. I invest my money anyway. I'll never whine about my tax burden when there are people who struggle financially daily and need health coverage. The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others. A Capitalistic system of which Adam Smith explained himself only thrives when those who have achieved help those who aspire to achieve. I've seen a lot of criticism but what have any of you done to give back?


edited* Adam Smith not John

[Nemesis]

Obama posts on IA? lol

[Vteckidd]

Tax me, I don't care.. I invest my money anyway. I'll never whine about my tax burden when there are people who struggle financially daily and need health coverage. The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others. A Capitalistic system of which Adam Smith explained himself only thrives when those who have achieved help those who aspire to achieve. I've seen a lot of criticism but what have any of you done to give back?


edited* Adam Smith not John


Oh I dunno, EMPLOYING OTHERS? LOL

I think thats the single best thing someone can do, is employ another person and pay them a decent wage.

You guys want to villify the rich like they are some bloodsucking leech that doesnt provide anything to society.

There are 2 types of people in life, those that pay interest, and those that collect it.

Which one are you?

There is nothing wrong with retaining wealth if you have earned it.

[Tracy]

I have a question. How do we REALLY decide who to give the money to? I'm about to get personal to prove a point. So get ready. My brother is a crack head. Been a junkie since he was 9, yes 9 he started huffing gas. he is now 30. Been in and out of jail his whole life, robbed Dan and I at gun point, had a kid, never given him a dime, got married to another crack head, they had her kid taken away from them by the state.

THEY GET FOOD STAMPS RIGHT NOW WITH 0 CHILDREN TO CARE FOR. EVEN WORSE, TAKEN FROM THEM FOR BEING INCAPABLE.

WTF? Ok, so he had a very rough life. Our parents were junkies and abusive. We were in and out of foster homes most of our childhood. Somehow, I have never been a crack head, have never been in jail, never had a kid. Instead I made my own life. never dwelled on the past and have never blamed anyone. In fact, I have forgiven my parents and we now talk like nothing ever happened.

So, the idea here is that we both came from the same set of circumstances, yet we are polar opposites. Why didn't his able bodied ass get his life together and become a productive human being? He was very handsome (runs in the family :D) had all his fingers and toes and a shot at the American Dream....just like me.

So, how do we decide who deserves the money from MY BUSINESS? Who decideds that Brandon will have to cut back after all of his years of loyalty to us so that he can feed my brother who has never contributed to anyone or anything or been loyal to one fucking person in his life?

I hope maybe my story personifies this topic for everyone.

[preferredduck]

The house plan does force people onto the govt option because of costs. First, there is a $2500 fine if you decide you dont want health insurance. Second, a private company is required to pay for health coverage or pay a fine equaling 8% of their payroll. Third, healthcare benefits will be taxed at the corporate income tax rate. Considering those last 2 things, a small to medium sized business is forced to drop their coverage and simply pay the 8% fine as it will be far cheaper.





This isnt about competition, it is about using unfair business practices. Hawaii is actually a perfect example. It was designed to cover the kids without insurance, exactly like the house plan is. Instead, everyone moved to the free coverage. According to the Gov of hawaii, 85% of the kids on the plan had insurance before joining the govt one.



Go back to my first response. And if you do decide to keep your own healthcare, you will be forced to pay for both plans instead of just your own.





And yours are just as empty as Obama's talking points. Completely ignore details in favor of talking points and rhetoric. Read the bill. There is nothing in there that will maintain current care standards. There are provisions for an appointed board to determine what coverage levels certain people should get. There is also plenty of talk about heavily reducing a doctor's compensation to reduce costs.




Cutting the f-22 program completely will not pay 1% of the costs of this. All I have heard so far as ways to pay for this is cutting medicare and tax the rich.



Why is it my responsibility to buy someone else's insurance? EVERY group, including the CBO, that has looked at the house plan says it will lower quality and raise costs.

by their standards it seems to me someone is still making money, and it won't be the doctors either. i heard about them forcing you to get insurance of you get fined. that is BS and as i stated someone has to be making a good return on their investment on this healthcare plan period.

[BanginJimmy]

What we have here is a simple difference of ideology. You and Jimmy continually bring up the business owner, the business and the doctor. I continually bring up the people and what is right for the backbone of the U.S, the middle class. Those businesses you quote only exist because the common man allows them to, those salaries don't fall out of the sky, so if there is anyone whose needs should be addressed first it is those people.

So you do believe that if we cant bring the bottom to the top, we should bring the top to the bottom. Based on the current forms of govt run medical care, do you really think quality is going to even stay as good as as it is now?

Who do you think gives people the jobs that pay them to use other businesses? About 80% of jobs in America are available through small businesses. Many of those businesses will be forced out if they have to try to pay for health coverage or get fined 8% of their payroll. At the very best, that will result in business owners cutting jobs or eliminating raises to pay for this.

Next we can get into personal choice and a reason I would oppose this bill no matter what else was in it. This bill fines people $2500 a year if they dont want to pay for healthcare. That is simply beyond lunacy.


Tax me, I don't care.. I invest my money anyway. I'll never whine about my tax burden when there are people who struggle financially daily and need health coverage. The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others. A Capitalistic system of which Adam Smith explained himself only thrives when those who have achieved help those who aspire to achieve. I've seen a lot of criticism but what have any of you done to give back?

You say that now, but what bout when you take home 1/3 of your yearly wages? 100k a year jobs will soon be bringing home barely above the poverty line. Then the Bush tax cuts expire and when Obama's tax hikes begin which will further deplete your earnings. Add to that, the massive inflation we will be seeing in the next couple of years. And if cap and Trade is passed into law, we will see massive rises in utility costs.


I like you Tony, you usually debate well, but trying to advocate this plan makes it look like you will go full bore for anything that Obama proposes. This is a bad plan and anyone that looks into it knows it.

[preferredduck]

Oh I dunno, EMPLOYING OTHERS? LOL

I think thats the single best thing someone can do, is employ another person and pay them a decent wage.

You guys want to villify the rich like they are some bloodsucking leech that doesnt provide anything to society.

There are 2 types of people in life, those that pay interest, and those that collect it.

Which one are you?

There is nothing wrong with retaining wealth if you have earned it.


i just odn't like the 10% who have 90% of the moeny supply. thoses rich people really piss me off. but millionares are ok but i cross the line when they are worth 500 trillion.

[Vteckidd]

I have a question. How do we REALLY decide who to give the money to? I'm about to get personal to prove a point. So get ready. My brother is a crack head. Been a junkie since he was 9, yes 9 he started huffing gas. he is now 30. Been in and out of jail his whole life, robbed Dan and I at gun point, had a kid, never given him a dime, got married to another crack head, they had her kid taken away from them by the state.

THEY GET FOOD STAMPS RIGHT NOW WITH 0 CHILDREN TO CARE FOR. EVEN WORSE, TAKEN FROM THEM FOR BEING INCAPABLE.

WTF? Ok, so he had a very rough life. Our parents were junkies and abusive. We were in and out of foster homes most of our childhood. Somehow, I have never been a crack head, have never been in jail, never had a kid. Instead I made my own life. never dwelled on the past and have never blamed anyone. In fact, I have forgiven my parents and we now talk like nothing ever happened.

So, the idea here is that we both came from the same set of circumstances, yet we are polar opposites. Why didn't his able bodied ass get his life together and become a productive human being? He was very handsome (runs in the family :D) had all his fingers and toes and a shot at the American Dream....just like me.

So, how do we decide who deserves the money from MY BUSINESS? Who decideds that Brandon will have to cut back after all of his years of loyalty to us so that he can feed my brother who has never contributed to anyone or anything or been loyal to one fucking person in his life?

I hope maybe my story personifies this topic for everyone.


Im glad this issue is really resonating with you guys. Maybe we can hope this will get more people involved.

While i truly do feel a sense of sadness for your brother, you are right, he made his own choices.

BUt under Obama you are the evil "rich" that society can no longer afford to indulge. You call your own shots, and do what you want and that simply is that status quo "we cant afford any longer".

If Obama gets his way 2 things are going to happen

1) Hopefully this DOESNT happen, but your tax burden will be so much more that you will have to lay someone off, or close up shop completely. Many business are operating at the limit right now. making just enough to get by. Now i know i have ZERO knowledge of BGs finances, but what i mean is an extra 1000$ a month can mean the difference between paying a bill and not paying a bill. Between investing in new equipment, or not. Between taking tat business venture or not.

If we stop small business from investing or expanding, get used to the recession.

2) You will have to cut wages to afford your healthcare you are now mandated to carry. One thing history has taught us is that business owners and people who employ others PASS THE COST ON. If "Dans" cost goes up he will either charge more, or cut costs somewhere else which usually means wages, expenditures, investments, etc.

That is also a surefire way NOT to grow a business.


We want "dan" to employ more people (that he can trust HAR HAR ;) ) not be forced to lay people off, or downsize his business.

But Obama wouldnt know anything about that , he has never run a business

[BanginJimmy]

So, how do we decide who deserves the money from MY BUSINESS? Who decideds that Brandon will have to cut back after all of his years of loyalty to us so that he can feed my brother who has never contributed to anyone or anything or been loyal to one fucking person in his life?

Here lies the problem for dems. There is zero accountability in any federal program right now. This is especially true in medicare and medicaid. Dems want you to simply ignore that and believe that this one will be the pinnacle of efficiency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k02uAU0-0I

Funny little town hall video. This is a liberal crowd also judging by the fact that they like taxing the wealthy so much more.

[Tracy]

Good points and I am with ya. I want to hear from Tony how we decide who is deserving if we, Batlground, as "RICH" people who have accumulated our "WEALTH", should help out?

As it pertains to this quote:


The problem with this whole idea of Capitalism to the core is that those who have accumulated their wealth care more about retaining it rather than helping others.

I ask because I am all about helping people out. I have a very soft heart for the needy. I give money every day on my ride home from school to the homeless under he bridge at the Monroe exit off 85. Every time I throw Dan's shit out, I take it to the Goodwill :D

Even more than that, I would love to give Brandon way more than he gets. He totally deserves it. He has worked hard for it and he is def not rich. In order for me to give to the "less fortunate", in this respect, I will have to take from Brandon in order to stay afloat. So who is considered less fortunate and just plain stupid and lazy?

IMO, Brandon has a good chance of becoming less fortunate if we don't think about all of the avenues.

[Vteckidd]

What they want to do is level the playing field. They want to make the RICH poorer instead of the POOR richer.

That is what this is all about. Cap and Trade, Healthcare, taxes, its all Obamas plan to enslave the less fortunate through govt entitlements and to hurt the small business and evil corporations.

"Brandon" has no healthcare now, so when Obama says to him "hey man, you want healthcare im going to give it to you!"

"Brandon" says "FUCK YEAH! I LOVE YOU MAN!"

Then "dan" comes to him and says "hey brandon, that $xxxx you were making per month, its going to turn into $xxx cause i now have to pay for your healthcare".

Then what is Obama going to say to "brandon"? Hes going to say "its your evil boss, he just wants to keep all the money for himself, thats why he cut your wages, it wasnt me"

He is systematically turning the wage EARNERs against the wage PAYERs.

What he doesnt realize is there is no middle class without the upperclass.

[Tracy]

Then "dan" comes to him and says "hey brandon, that $xxxx you were making per month, its going to turn into $xxx cause i now have to pay for your healthcare".


What we would actually have to say is, "Bye, bye. I hope you enjoyed your time here and thanks for everything. We will call you when we can afford to hire you again."

[BanginJimmy]

Good points and I am with ya. I want to hear from Tony how we decide who is deserving if we, Batlground, as "RICH" people who have accumulated our "WEALTH", should help out?

Dont hold your breath. The fundamental flaw with liberalism is that it simply doesnt not stand up to even cursory investigation. That is why liberals spend so much time attacking others when they are questioned.

[Tracy]

Well just let me clear that up. I am genuinely interested in hearing all sides. I am just using my logic from my own point of view. In order to have a real discussion you have to be open to where other people are coming from.

To me it's like critiquing my art. I always like to have a few more eyes look over it before I turn it in. Sometimes a fresh eye does wonders.

[Vteckidd]

What we would actually have to say is, "Bye, bye. I hope you enjoyed your time here and thanks for everything. We will call you when we can afford to hire you again."
either way its going to hurt your employees and its going to hurt employers.

Obama likes to say this line all the time

"wages increase at 3% per year, but healthcare costs have tripled"

DOes he really thing increasing your BUSINESS' cost is going to drive you to raise wages? I mean its absolute crap.

If you are paying "$1000" a month in bills and then all of the sudden your bills jump to $2000 per month, are you going to pass out raises? FUCK NO.

History again has taught us, when a businesses cost goes up:

1) Cost of goods rise
2) Wages stay stagnant or decrease
3) Layoffs occur


he is trying to trick everone into thinking that he is going to LOWER costs of healthcare but its going to raise the cost for ANY small business employer, and its going to raise the cost for any medium to big business. YOU CANNOT LOWER HEALTHCARE COSTS BY INCREASING COVERAGE WHEN IT IS UNDERSTAFFED.

Lets use Batlground as an example since Tracy is in here. If they charge $500 for a clutch, and have 1 tech. They pay that tech $20/hr. It takes him 5 hours. Lets say they wake up one day, and there is 1000 people outside their shop wanting the same job done. Do you think they

A) Lower their cost
B) Provide better care/work
C) Ration their work (IE is it first come first serve, or is it who needs their car the fastest)

Now lets say they come to their tech and say "hey tech, we got 1000 people lined up now, we need you to work faster, better, and we are going to drop your pay from $20/hr to 15/hr"

No the answer is if BG had that many people waiting and they werent going anywhere else, they SHOULD, hire more techs, and within reason pay their techs more afterall the business has grown overnight.

Now lets say the govt comes along and says "hey BG we see you are a lot busier now, we are going to have to increase your taxes from 35% to 50%. Preciate it, keep up the good work"

Although my example is crude at best, its still a long the same lines as what is going on in washintgon

The other thing that pisses me off is this other Obama line:

"The last 10 years the bottom 20 Percent of earned LESS while the top 20 percent have earned more"

Hes essentially saying that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. What he is not telling you is that the "bottom 20 %" ARENT THE SAME PEOPLE ANYMORE! That 20 Percent from 10 years ago,they moved up, they earn MORE MONEY now then they did before. They are being replaced by people making less, but thats due in part by decline in education, job skills, and ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!

In fact one study done by the Congressional Joint Economic Committee showed that those in the "bottom 20 Percent" in 1979 "more of them had reached the top income tier than had remained at the bottom" A member at the bottom of the bracket in 1979 had a much better chance at increasing his wealth and pay than remaining in that bracket.

Did you know that the top 20% of wage earners account for 47% of all consumer spending? The top 20% spends almost HALF what the bottom 80% spend!

[tony]

Well just let me clear that up. I am genuinely interested in hearing all sides. I am just using my logic from my own point of view. In order to have a real discussion you have to be open to where other people are coming from.

To me it's like critiquing my art. I always like to have a few more eyes look over it before I turn it in. Sometimes a fresh eye does wonders.

When hearing both sides hear the gist of the argument and what it is for and against. I'm not saying I'm right, not saying they are right but everyones needs are different. As business owners your situation is different than mine as an employee and a father.

[Andyc3020]

Dont we all wish we could have our cake and eat it too?





that never worked

[tony]

I like you Tony, you usually debate well, but trying to advocate this plan makes it look like you will go full bore for anything that Obama proposes. This is a bad plan and anyone that looks into it knows it.

Understand this about me because I will admit my bias and why I think the way I do. My degree is in Sociology, my studies led me to Political Science and other subjects but the core of what I am passionate about is the Sociological aspect of every action that comes on the local, state and federal level. I'm sorry, I just don't see this plan through partisan goggles or as an advocate of capitalism, I see it as what does it bring to the people. A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it

Tracy, as for your brother. He may be this and he may be that but as long as he is alive he is not a lost cause. So to deny him a benefit due to judgement on his past to me seems unfair. Those who are productive in society like Brandon should be commended as such but some people do require a bit more attention than others. When I struggled financially I had people help me get to where I am, I worked my way up to a point where I could return the favor to someone else and that is how it should work.

[Tracy]

When hearing both sides hear the gist of the argument and what it is for and against. I'm not saying I'm right, not saying they are right but everyones needs are different. As business owners your situation is different than mine as an employee and a father.I am getting the gist. I am very open minded. I am not worried about who is right and who isn't. That is the farthest thing from my mind, so I hope you understand where I am going now.

I am now moving on to the how. Let's say your gist is awesome. Now how do we decide who is deserving and less fortunate and who is just dumb and lazy. How we do decide what hard working Brandon who JUST lives a decent, simple life has to give and to whom? It's a whole new question that hasn't been posed.

And, I have no health care as a "rich" business owner with no family. You want to know why? Because we can't afford it....but we will be forced to give it even though we can't afford it. Ya know what I mean?

[Tracy]

Understand this about me because I will admit my bias and why I think the way I do. My degree is in Sociology, my studies led me to Political Science and other subjects but the core of what I am passionate about is the Sociological aspect of every action that comes on the local, state and federal level. I'm sorry, I just don't see this plan through partisan goggles or as an advocate of capitalism, I see it as what does it bring to the people. A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it

Tracy, as for your brother. He may be this and he may be that but as long as he is alive he is not a lost cause. So to deny him a benefit due to judgement on his past to me seems unfair. Those who are productive in society like Brandon should be commended as such but some people do require a bit more attention than others. When I struggled financially I had people help me get to where I am, I worked my way up to a point where I could return the favor to someone else and that is how it should work.

I am coming from the people's point of view. Not a studies point of view. The same type of person you are trying to protect. Where do we draw the line? I am looking for the compromise because as I already mentioned, I think we need to change. I just don't know how.

I am not judging anyone. That would imply that I don't know anything about the situation. I gave straight facts based on a personal story for a reason and asked how we will decide? Not judge.

Money? Is that the end all be all? If you bring in $200k or above you are rich. If you bring in below $17k you are poor? It seems like there just has to be more to it than that. That's where I am going.

[ScrapMetalDSM]

understand that I didnt read every post in this thread but I will give my opinion. I will keep it short and simple.

At first I was in favor of this plan because of my pre-existing medical condition and expensive medications make it impossible to get affordable health coverage. I ended up getting insurance through my job which is pretty much useless and I hope it works when it comes time to refill my medications. I figured "Hey this plan will help me! I'm all for it" But after research and reading what you have posted in your healthcare post I am changing my mind. The quality of care that I receive is great, and I dont want it to go down. I am willing to pay more to keep my doctors the way they are, see them when I want to see them and get what ever care I need without approval from Washington.

[tony]

I am coming from the people's point of view. Not a studies point of view. The same type of person you are trying to protect. Where do we draw the line? I am not judging anyone. That would imply that I don't know anything about the situation. I gave straight facts based on a personal story for a reason and asked how we will decide? Not judge.

Money? Is that the end all be all? If you bring in $200k or above you are rich. If you bring in below $17k you are poor? It seems like there just has to be more to it than that. That's where I am going.

Personally I'm talking about volunteering more than money. One of the biggest issues in the black community is the lack of father figures and I stress (even I have been guilty of this since i focus more on my own son) that more black men need to step up and pick up the slack. Rather than worry about 24's worry about these kids and their grades. That is just an example of resources that should be given back, obviously the issue is bigger than just one race.

Obviously what your brother does not need is just money thrown at him. More people need to step up and lend a hand to those in need rather than sit on the sideline and point fingers. You are always going to have those situations where the person doesn't want help or cannot be helped, but for every one of those i guarantee there are 5 that will gladly take that help and make the most of it.

[Tracy]

Personally I'm talking about volunteering more than money. One of the biggest issues in the black community is the lack of father figures and I stress (even I have been guilty of this since i focus more on my own son) that more black men need to step up and pick up the slack. Rather than worry about 24's worry about these kids and their grades. That is just an example of resources that should be given back, obviously the issue is bigger than just one race.

Obviously what your brother does not need is just money thrown at him. More people need to step up and lend a hand to those in need rather than sit on the sideline and point fingers. You are always going to have those situations where the person doesn't want help or cannot be helped, but for every one of those i guarantee there are 5 that will gladly take that help and make the most of it.

I agree about all of that. I have been a big brother big sister. Used to volunteer at Capital homes when it was there. Taught art classes at Northside hospital. Brought my cars to the downtown schools and spoke to minority children and little girls to teach them they can be race car drivers. Given my brother way too many chances, too much money and so much love you wouldn't believe. Only threw in the towel once he threatened mine and Dans lives, literally. Does any of that mean that now I don't have to pay for Brandon's health care and go out of business by doing so?

It still doesn't address health care and taxes. I thought that's what this thread was about. Not volunteer opportunities. Am I reading you right?

[BanginJimmy]

Understand this about me because I will admit my bias and why I think the way I do. My degree is in Sociology, my studies led me to Political Science and other subjects but the core of what I am passionate about is the Sociological aspect of every action that comes on the local, state and federal level. I'm sorry, I just don't see this plan through partisan goggles or as an advocate of capitalism, I see it as what does it bring to the people.

There in lies the problem. You are looking at this from a purely academic viewpoint. You are looking only at the proposal and not at any of the known consequences of it. You need to take a real world look at it. If you pay more in taxes, do you have more money to spend elsewhere or less? If you try to get a doc appointment and he is full, do you simply wait, or do you find a different doc that can see you?





A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it.

So you believe that anything that closes that gap is a good thing. You dont care if that gap is closed from the bottom up, or the top down, just so long as it closes. That sounds more like envy of those with more than you than anything else.

[tony]

It still doesn't address health care and taxes. I thought that's what this thread was about. Not volunteer opportunities. Am I reading you right?


The sentiment is the same. I'm willing to sacrifice my own resources so you can have yours. If you make significantly less than I am willing to have my taxes raised in order for you to have a decent quality of living. My point was that the man who created the concept of Capitalism stated this himself, in order for a Capitalistic society to thrive those who have accumulated wealth must be willing to carry the burden of taxes as well.

There are currently 37 million uninsured Americans with 24% of those who are insured have inadequate coverage. That needs to change and it cannot be done without some kind of sacrifice.

[tony]

So you believe that anything that closes that gap is a good thing. You dont care if that gap is closed from the bottom up, or the top down, just so long as it closes. That sounds more like envy of those with more than you than anything else.


I'm looking at it in the sense of what will get things done. The Conservative side proposes tax cuts as the solution to so many problems, tax cuts do nothing, there needs to be a hands on approach to this not a trickle down effect. Trust me I don't envy those with more, I'm one of the people they would raise taxes on.. don't think that I am stating this from the outside looking in. I have been in both situations, poor and seeing my mother on medicare and social security to where I am at now where things are very comfortable for me.. I am more concerned of whether I do enough than if I have enough.

[Vteckidd]

Originally Posted by tony
A lot of you don't understand that zero movement on healthcare is a gap between the haves and the have nots. If you're rich that is fine but I guarantee not one person got there without the help of others, now it is time to help those others cause god knows in this economy they need it.

I just dont see where you think you can force this society into some kind of Utopia. YOu really think you can legislate people to CARE and give back? IS that what im reading? I mean you cannot force people to do something if they dont want to.

Furthermore, there is no RIGHT to healthcare. As i have said before and if you read my FACTS, very LITTLE in this country have no care and if they dont its because they choose NOT TO.

Hell , Brandon can go get care, i bet he can pay the same $125 a month that i pay, he may have to cut out stuff like cable tv, 500whp 240s, etc. But if healthcare really mattered to him, he could go pay for it. I know he could. But many like him dont want it. He is a mid to late 20s healthy guy with no pre-existing conditions. He is willing to not pay for it.

By empowering the HAVE NOTS to an entitlement and taxing the very people they work for, do you not understand you are going to force more layoffs?

What are you going to do when unemployment reaches 20%? Blame the evil rich? You cannot sit there and tell a business owner they are wrong for making too much money, then tell them to hire more people to take us out of a recession. Thats complete idiocy. You cant tax them and increase their costs, then tell them to go hire more people.

If you cant understand that, i dont know what to tell you.

Again im going to re-iterate the things a capitalisitic society needs . The world needs haves and have nots. There are going to be ambitious people out there that make it, and theres some that dont. Theres going to be some people that can get ahead, there will be some that done.

There isnt anyone in this country that cant make it if they try hard , work hard, and take risks. I started my business with $1200 over a year ago. I had rent due in 2 weeks, which was $800. So realistically i had $400 to my name. I have grown that into a business that is very successful. Ive bought a house, a car, ive re-invested into my business heavily with new products and items being developed, ive grown. I dont employ anyone else YET because i dont have that need. But its coming and coming soon.

BG/Mainstream/Other places started with little to no money. And now they employ 2-3 people per shop. They have invested in new equipment, new staff, etc. That is the "front lines" that Obama is attacking.


You said tony that you may not understand BGs needs as business owners because you arent one. Why should they be forced to understand your needs? It works both ways

[Vteckidd]

I have friends that bitch day in day out that their jobs suck. That they make no money, that they are so unhappy. This was going on BEFORE the recession. I simply asked them "do something about it".

Find another job, bullshit your way into another, change fields, go back to school, etc.

Most of them wont do anything, they will sit there and wollow in their own self pity for years to come always living paycheck to paycheck. I have lost a lot of my friends since i started making more money. They resent me. They dont like that i have no set hours, that i do whatever i want within reason, and i report to no one. Ive lost many friends from being on my own because i have money to do stuff they dont. Or they are upset that i found my niche at this point in my life an they havent.

I wasnt happy with my situation for many years, i did something about it and took a risk. It paid off. It could have just of easily backfired on me. Then where would i be? I Just realized at 26 years old i had to do something to afford me what i wanted in life.

to me it was working for myself.

For someone else, its going back to school, its going into the military, its whatever.

But ill tell you what i dont feel sorry for those people that wont do anything to help their situations. I didnt do it to them. Why should i feel guilty? Why should they be mad at me because i have been successful or acheived some type of success? Why should i have to give back to them?

[Tracy]

The sentiment is the same. I'm willing to sacrifice my own resources so you can have yours. If you make significantly less than I am willing to have my taxes raised in order for you to have a decent quality of living. My point was that the man who created the concept of Capitalism stated this himself, in order for a Capitalistic society to thrive those who have accumulated wealth must be willing to carry the burden of taxes as well.

There are currently 37 million uninsured Americans with 24% of those who are insured have inadequate coverage. That needs to change and it cannot be done without some kind of sacrifice.
So where do we draw the line? I am willing to sacrifice, too. I give as much to my staff as I can afford. That's how I give. I have kept food on Brandon's table for almost 8 years now. He has gotten paid when Dan I were eating Ramen. Of course we have to keep our operations capital at a certain point, but that doesn't go into my pocket. It goes into paying my staff when we have hard months and it goes toward floating people's bills who have work done but can't afford it at the time so it sits in my driveway for a month before they come get it...but Brandon still has to get paid even if they don't come pay their bill...that cuts into my operations capital that Obama sees as making me rich.

I am using us and Brandon as an example because we fall under that rich threshold as it is presented right now.

[Vteckidd]

Yeah but Tracy if you make over $280,000 a year you are RICH. You make too much, you have to give back to people that arent as fortunate as you :rolleyes:

Obama has never run a business so he has no idea what operating capital and such is. Just cause you have $40,000 in the bank doesnt make you baller of the year.

I like to think that MOST business owners still around and in business know how to operate their business. They know how to run it, otherwise they wouldnt be around. If they dont pay their employees enough, then the employees can leave.

Again, hate to use Brandon, but if for some reason Brandon didnt like working at BG, he could leave and go back to a dealership or go somewhere else. But he likes his work, people, boss, paycheck at BG so he stays.

Obama will make him want to leave and turn him against his employer, or he will close the employer down.

thats the ugly truth

[tony]

I just dont see where you think you can force this society into some kind of Utopia. YOu really think you can legislate people to CARE and give back? IS that what im reading? I mean you cannot force people to do something if they dont want to.

Furthermore, there is no RIGHT to healthcare. As i have said before and if you read my FACTS, very LITTLE in this country have no care and if they dont its because they choose NOT TO.

Hell , Brandon can go get care, i bet he can pay the same $125 a month that i pay, he may have to cut out stuff like cable tv, 500whp 240s, etc. But if healthcare really mattered to him, he could go pay for it. I know he could. But many like him dont want it. He is a mid to late 20s healthy guy with no pre-existing conditions. He is willing to not pay for it.

By empowering the HAVE NOTS to an entitlement and taxing the very people they work for, do you not understand you are going to force more layoffs?

What are you going to do when unemployment reaches 20%? Blame the evil rich? You cannot sit there and tell a business owner they are wrong for making too much money, then tell them to hire more people to take us out of a recession. Thats complete idiocy. You cant tax them and increase their costs, then tell them to go hire more people.

If you cant understand that, i dont know what to tell you.

Again im going to re-iterate the things a capitalisitic society needs . The world needs haves and have nots. There are going to be ambitious people out there that make it, and theres some that dont. Theres going to be some people that can get ahead, there will be some that done.

There isnt anyone in this country that cant make it if they try hard , work hard, and take risks. I started my business with $1200 over a year ago. I had rent due in 2 weeks, which was $800. So realistically i had $400 to my name. I have grown that into a business that is very successful. Ive bought a house, a car, ive re-invested into my business heavily with new products and items being developed, ive grown. I dont employ anyone else YET because i dont have that need. But its coming and coming soon.

BG/Mainstream/Other places started with little to no money. And now they employ 2-3 people per shop. They have invested in new equipment, new staff, etc. That is the "front lines" that Obama is attacking.


You said tony that you may not understand BGs needs as business owners because you arent one. Why should they be forced to understand your needs? It works both ways

You act like BG's only 2-3 customers are their employees, how about those people that come there to have their car worked on? I bet BG feels the recession too because people have to tend to other expenses rather than modify their car when times are tough. The needs I'm talking about are the very people who come through that door, not just those who work behind it.

And good for you for making it but I don't expect everyone to make it to my level, its impossible.. you actually contradicted yourself in that sense. You say in Capitalism there needs to be haves and have nots then say everyone is able to work hard and move up, if there is always going to be this gap the two cannot exist.. someone will always be at the bottom.

What I am saying is those at the bottom need not be left out and even though they might not be the wealthiest or most productive, they are citizens of this country. Health benefits are not a right, but at one time free education wasn't either but look what happened after it became one, that is one of the reasons our economy flourished. I'm sure those who wanted to remain educated without "paying" for others' had similar arguments as yours back then.

[Vteckidd]

You act like BG's only 2-3 customers are their employees, how about those people that come there to have their car worked on? I bet BG feels the recession too because people have to tend to other expenses rather than modify their car when times are tough. The needs I'm talking about are the very people who come through that door, not just those who work behind it.

And good for you for making it but I don't expect everyone to make it to my level, its impossible.. you actually contradicted yourself in that sense. You say in Capitalism there needs to be haves and have nots then say everyone is able to work hard and move up, if there is always going to be this gap the two cannot exist.. someone will always be at the bottom.

What I am saying is those at the bottom need not be left out and even though they might not be the wealthiest or most productive, they are citizens of this country. Health benefits are not a right, but at one time free education wasn't either but look what happened after it became one, that is one of the reasons our economy flourished. I'm sure those who wanted to remain educated without "paying" for others' had similar arguments as yours back then.


No you just dont understand my statements.

There will be have and have nots. Those are determined by those who work hard and those that dont. Those that take responsibility, those that always blame someone else. Those with good grades, those without. Those with connections, those with none.

The simple fact is, there will be people that get ahead and make money, there will be people that DONT.

I firmly believe that if you want to change your situation you can. Look at Tracy, she said she came from a household of abuse and drugs, but she did something different than her brother. WHY? Cause she CHOSE TO. She has been rewarded. Her brother, not so much.

There will always be ones that work hard, and there will always be ones that dont want to work for it.

The ones that dont want it bad enough, dont deserve free handouts at the expense of those that worked to get to a position they can enjoy life.

sorry if thats cold hearted.

[tony]

So where do we draw the line? I am willing to sacrifice, too. I give as much to my staff as I can afford. That's how I give. I have kept food on Brandon's table for almost 8 years now. He has gotten paid when Dan I were eating Ramen. Of course we have to keep our operations capital at a certain point, but that doesn't go into my pocket. It goes into paying my staff when we have hard months and it goes toward floating people's bills who have work done but can't afford it at the time so it sits in my driveway for a month before they come get it...but Brandon still has to get paid even if they don't come pay their bill...that cuts into my operations capital that Obama sees as making me rich.

I am using us and Brandon as an example because we fall under that rich threshold as it is presented right now.

This is where things get grey on Obama. What Obama says and what Obama does requires close scrutiny moving forward in a major plan such as this one. Personally I believe that small business a vital lifeline to this country and should be treated as such. The sacrifice small business owners make is already significant enough and a Universal plan should ease the burden of what you deal with.. keyword is SHOULD. That is where the scrutiny comes. A Universal plan should actually encourage entrepreneurship due to the fact that if someone decides to take that leap and venture on their own they will not have to worry about the cost of covering their family and/or their employees. This is just where you would have to take a close look at the plan. I suggest factcheck.org

Now, corporations with special interest groups, lobbyists, different story.

[tony]

There will always be ones that work hard, and there will always be ones that dont want to work for it.

The ones that dont want it bad enough, dont deserve free handouts at the expense of those that worked to get to a position they can enjoy life.

sorry if thats cold hearted.

Then thats you, you can use your resources to maintain yourself as one of the "haves." Nothing wrong with that.

[punkr6]

What I am saying is those at the bottom need not be left out and even though they might not be the wealthiest or most productive, they are citizens of this country. Health benefits are not a right, but at one time free education wasn't either but look what happened after it became one, that is one of the reasons our economy flourished. I'm sure those who wanted to remain educated without "paying" for others' had similar arguments as yours back then.

public education is a joke, and where do you draw the line ? Are we gonna pay for everyones everything and say its ok because they are less fortunate ?

[Vteckidd]

YOu cannot possibly compare public education to public healthcare haha. I mean come on

[tony]

public education is a joke, and where do you draw the line ? Are we gonna pay for everyones everything and say its ok because their less fortunate ?

You missed the point. Pick up a history book, mix that with some economics and you will find that free education is the one thing that pushed any of the advanced nations today forward. Are Rhode Scholars coming out of grade school? No, but at the least it creates an relatively educated society.

[Tracy]

This is where things get grey on Obama. What Obama says and what Obama does requires close scrutiny moving forward in a major plan such as this one. Personally I believe that small business a vital lifeline to this country and should be treated as such. The sacrifice small business owners make is already significant enough and a Universal plan should ease the burden of what you deal with.. keyword is SHOULD. That is where the scrutiny comes. A Universal plan should actually encourage entrepreneurship due to the fact that if someone decides to take that leap and venture on their own they will not have to worry about the cost of covering their family and/or their employees. This is just where you would have to take a close look at the plan. I suggest factcheck.org

Now, corporations with special interest groups, lobbyists, different story.And this is exactly where I was going. It will require very close discretion and scrutiny. I wanted the point to be made that Dan and I aren't rich, but we fall under that category with our small business. I am for change, but not without close consideration to all aspects and I want to know where the line is to be drawn? Money the end all be all? or do we consider anything like what I presented in my brothers circumstances?

I don't care to look at the website for discussion purposes. I am discussing HERE for debate purposes. I am asking YOU what YOU think. YOU are voter, aren't you? We ALL make the decision and your personal opinion should count if the system works right. So ultimately, it matter how you feel all of this should be worked out. I am not asking for facts. I am asking for your opinion on the solution. Maybe it has been proposed, maybe not. So I don't feel the need to go to the site.

[tony]

YOu cannot possibly compare public education to public healthcare haha. I mean come on

If you cannot channel the idea of Public Education and Universal healthcare and the similarities its because you choose not to.

[Vteckidd]

If you cannot channel the idea of Public Education and Universal healthcare and the similarities its because you choose not to.

Public education takes people that can be trained for 1/1000th cost of what the healthcare professional make.

Its not even in the same arena!

How can you compare an Elementary School with Grady Hospital?????

How can you compare a $42,000 year teacher like my mom, to a $750,000 a year Heart Surgeon?

I didnt know there was malpractice suits in Public Education these days......

[tony]

And this is exactly where I was going. It will require very close discretion and scrutiny. I wanted the point to be made that Dan and I aren't rich, but we fall under that category with our small business.I am for change, but not without close consideration to all aspects.

I don't care to look at the website for discussion purposes. I am discussing HERE for debate purposes. I am asking YOU what YOU think. YOU are voter, aren't you? We ALL make the decision and your personal opinion should count if the system works right. So ultimately, it matter how you feel all of this should be worked out. I am not asking for facts. I am asking for your opinion on the solution. Maybe it has been proposed, maybe not. So I don't feel the need to go to the site.

Heres the thing, Government without scrutiny is dangerous in itself. I tell this to my friends who are liberal, government programs are all well and good but if the people are not educated then there is no balance. This is why I get annoyed when political debates get less ratings than American Idol. Or threads like these get very little attention other than one liners from people who just don't like (or do like) this plan.

Along with a universal plan needs to come initiatives on healthy lifestyles.. and I don't mean from the government. There has to be personal accountability as well from individuals, how that happens I do not know but it can be done.

[punkr6]

Does anybody out there have any memory of the reason given for the establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY during the Carter Administration?

Anybody?
Anything?
No?
Didn't think so!
Bottom line... we've spent several hundred billion dollars in support of an agency...

The reason for which not one person who reads this can remember.

Ready???????

It was very simple...

And at the time everybody thought it very appropriate...



The 'Department of Energy' was instituted on

8- 04-1977

TO LESSEN OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL.


Hey, pretty efficient, huh?????


AND NOW ITS 2009, 32 YEARS LATER

AND THE BUDGET FOR THIS NECESSARY DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR

IT HAS

16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES

AND APPROXIMATELY

100,000 CONTRACT EMPLOYEES

AND LOOK AT THE JOB IT HAS DONE!

THIS IS WHERE YOU SLAP YOUR FOREHEAD AND SAY

'WHAT WAS I THINKING?'

Ah, yes, good ole bureaucracy...


And NOW we are going to turn the Banking System, health care, & the auto industry over to them?

God Help Us!!!

[Tracy]

Did you know that if you are 40 or younger right now, chances are you will make it to 100? That is a fact (I do PR for a doctor who wrote a book on it). Marinate on that for a minute as it pertains to health care. Do we really want EVERYONE living until they are 100? Most centenarians haven't prepared their money or their bodies to live that long and they are living in squaller or in nursing homes because of it. People live this long because of our advanced health care. I can't be for sure if God or Allah or George made our bodies and mind to make it that far. Are we fucking up that plan?

Whoa. I went there :D

[Vteckidd]

Along with a universal plan needs to come initiatives on healthy lifestyles.. and I don't mean from the government. There has to be personal accountability as well from individuals, how that happens I do not know but it can be done.

Im totally against that. Im for free choice. If i want to go have a god damn triple whopper with cheese with a side of Bacon and fried chicken, let me do it. If i want to smoke a pack of marlboro reds and die of cancer, let me do it in peace.

You have no right to tell me how to live my life as long as i dont infringe upon your rights.

Do you smoke? You prob dont. Why not? Because its VERY BAD FOR YOU. But people still do it right? Cause they choose to. There isnt a soul in america right now that believes cigs are good for them or that they arent bad. Everyone knows its bad. But people still do it.

Everyone knows that Mceedees is BAD for you, but people still eat there. Why? Choice! If i want to lose 20 lbs i dont go scarf down cheeseburgers at mcdonalds.

You cant legislate a healthy lifestyle. And yeah health care for SMOKERS costs more than NON SMOKERS. My insurance went up $50 per month because i smoke. Go figure.

[Vteckidd]

Did you know that if you are 40 or younger right now, chances are you will make it to 100? That is a fact (I do PR for a doctor who wrote a book on it). Marinate on that for a minute as it pertains to health care. Do we really want EVERYONE living until they are 100? Most centenarians haven't prepared their money or their bodies to live that long and they are living in squaller or in nursing homes because of it. People live this long because of our advanced health care. I can't be for sure if God or Allah or George made our bodies and mind to make it that far. Are we fucking up that plan?

Whoa. I went there :D

Of course the longer we live, the more and more healthcare costs go up. Its a catch 22

[tony]

Does anybody out there have any memory of the reason given for the establishment of the DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY during the Carter Administration?

Anybody?
Anything?
No?
Didn't think so!
Bottom line... we've spent several hundred billion dollars in support of an agency...

The reason for which not one person who reads this can remember.

Ready???????

It was very simple...

And at the time everybody thought it very appropriate...



The 'Department of Energy' was instituted on

8- 04-1977

TO LESSEN OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL.


Hey, pretty efficient, huh?????


AND NOW ITS 2009, 32 YEARS LATER

AND THE BUDGET FOR THIS NECESSARY DEPARTMENT IS AT $24.2 BILLION A YEAR

IT HAS

16,000 FEDERAL EMPLOYEES

AND APPROXIMATELY

100,000 CONTRACT EMPLOYEES

AND LOOK AT THE JOB IT HAS DONE!

THIS IS WHERE YOU SLAP YOUR FOREHEAD AND SAY

'WHAT WAS I THINKING?'

Ah, yes, good ole bureaucracy...


And NOW we are going to turn the Banking System, health care, & the auto industry over to them?

God Help Us!!!

If you havent noticed nobody is copying and pasting propaganda posts in here. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090724115947AAXR8pW

Like I said go read a book.

[tony]

Im totally against that. Im for free choice. If i want to go have a god damn triple whopper with cheese with a side of Bacon and fried chicken, let me do it. If i want to smoke a pack of marlboro reds and die of cancer, let me do it in peace.

You have no right to tell me how to live my life as long as i dont infringe upon your rights.

Do you smoke? You prob dont. Why not? Because its VERY BAD FOR YOU. But people still do it right? Cause they choose to. There isnt a soul in america right now that believes cigs are good for them or that they arent bad. Everyone knows its bad. But people still do it.

Everyone knows that Mceedees is BAD for you, but people still eat there. Why? Choice! If i want to lose 20 lbs i dont go scarf down cheeseburgers at mcdonalds.

You cant legislate a healthy lifestyle. And yeah health care for SMOKERS costs more than NON SMOKERS. My insurance went up $50 per month because i smoke. Go figure.


I guess you missed the part where I said "not from the government" and "personal accountability."

[Tracy]

Of course the longer we live, the more and more healthcare costs go up. Its a catch 22Did you know that medicare and medicaid take up 20% of our budget already? Did you know that the baby boomers will all start to retire in 2012. Our largest population of people will have access to all of the gov't benefits that already take up 20% of our nat'l budget really soon. We already borrow ALL of our social security from China and they will be entitled to that at the same time.

[Vteckidd]

Did you know that medicare and medicaid take up 20% of our budget already? Did you know that the baby boomers will all start to retire in 2012. Our largest population of people will have access to all of the gov't benefits that already take up 20% of our nat'l budget really soon. We already borrow ALL of our social security from China and they will be entitled to that at the same time.
thats the problem we are facing right now, and oh btw lets add 47 million more people to the system at the same time

[Tracy]

thats the problem we are facing right now, and oh btw lets add 47 million more people to the system at the same timeAlso consider that this year the American prison system will free more prisoners in one year than it ever has (for not other reason than their sentences are just up and they have done their time) and over (I think it was ) 80% are mentally disabled?

[Tracy]

thats the problem we are facing right now, and oh btw lets add 47 million more people to the system at the same timeOh and that is when they BEGIN to retire. It will take 10 years for the entire generation to reach retiring age.

[trini_gsr]

i spent a good part of the afternoon reading this thread. really good arguments on both sides.

i'm with Mike and Tracy though. at the end of the day, it isn't the government's responsibility to take care of ppl. i have nothing against gov't HELPING ppl help themselves. i mean, whatever happened to personal accountability? where are we going to draw the line?

[tony]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.

[tony]

And like I said before, as it is not the deferred cost of uninsured is already $1,000 per family to the taxpayer.. so one way or another we are paying for everyones coverage as it is.

[Tracy]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.Isn't that how it is now? If you pay for it you get it? Superficially it seems like the only difference is the choice of whether or not you want to do it. You might just HAVE to.

[Vteckidd]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.
Obama Line 1
"If you like your coverage you can keep it"

That is an OUTRIGHT LIE. If you think for 1 second, that you can keep your existing health coverage under his plan please read up on what is going through congress RIGHT NOW. Here is how simple economics work, SUPPLY, DEMAND. Lets keep it simple shall we:

Lets assume his plan is going to cost you $50 per month. Your CURRENT Employers insurance costs $100 per month. On top of that like he said last night, he wants to TAX YOUR EMPLOYER AKA anyone making over $280,000 a year a surcharge to pay for the extra 1/3 cost of Healthcare he doesnt have in his budget.

Think about that. WHo do you think EMPLOYS YOU? The people making $280,000+. they are the bulk of Small Business. They are getting hit the hardest right now.

So do you really think your EMPLOYER who has these 2 Options A) Pay $50 for health care or half of what you are offering now or B) keep offering twice as expensive healthcare AND add a tax to that price.

HELL NO HE IS GOING TO GO WITH THE CHEAPER OPTION. Which means your coverage WILL CHANGE. It will change to the Government option.

He has no choice BUT to ration care. The only way you cut costs in Medical care is
A) DENY TESTS/CARE
B) CUT WAGES IE DRIVE DOCTORS AND NURSES OUT

[BanginJimmy]

You act like BG's only 2-3 customers are their employees, how about those people that come there to have their car worked on? I bet BG feels the recession too because people have to tend to other expenses rather than modify their car when times are tough. The needs I'm talking about are the very people who come through that door, not just those who work behind it.


You are only looking at half the equation. Look at the other half of it. Before those people can come into BG they need money from their employer. The healthcare fines and taxes alone will cause ALL employers to cut their employees. Some small employers like BG may have to cut 1 employee to make ends meet. Some employers, like Lockheed, will have to cut several thousand to achieve the same level of cuts.

[BanginJimmy]

There is this misnomer that healthcare will be free for everyone under this plan when that is not true. People like myself will still pay premiums but not like $300 a month type premiums, and it is tiered so lower incomes have more affordable coverage but everyone covered is paying into the system somehow.


And so is everyone NOT covered by the system. If you chose not to have coverage, you are fined $2500 a year. If an employer choses to stay with private insurance, he is fined for that also. Sounds to me like just another hidden tax, just like cap and trade is.

If you decide you want to change to liability only on your car, do you think your insurance company should be able to fine you $2500 a year for not having more coverage?

[BanginJimmy]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/healthcare/july_2009/53_now_oppose_congressional_health_care_reform


A nice breakdown from rassmussen. The longer this drags out, the better chance we have of avoiding this.

My favorite quote.


Americans, by a two-to-one margin, believe that no matter how bad things are, Congress can always make it worse.

[tony]

Its strange, I look for this $2500 fine in Obama's plan and all I find are right wing blogs that quote it. Show me in Obama's plan where it says the government will fine the uninsured $2500. Not some source, HIS PLAN. thanks. I ask because that was a proposal from Hillary Clinton and that was one of his criticisms of her plan.

[Vteckidd]

Its strange, I look for this $2500 fine in Obama's plan and all I find are right wing blogs that quote it. Show me in Obama's plan where it says the government will fine the uninsured $2500. Not some source, HIS PLAN. thanks. I ask because that was a proposal from Hillary Clinton and that was one of his criticisms of her plan.
you didnt look very hard. Its not really OBamas plan, but it is the democrats in several committees. But Obama has said he would sign it, so......

The numbers being thrown around are $2500 per year, or 2.5% of income. Depends on who you talk to



House Democrats on Tuesday unveiled their proposal for a sweeping health care bill that would require all Americans to buy affordable insurance. The cost of the proposed legislation would be paid for by taxes on wealthy Americans.

The House Ways and Means Committee announced it would vote on the proposal beginning on Thursday. The panel is one of three that must act before the bill can go to the full House, probably later in the month.

The bill would impose a 5.4 percent federal surtax on couples earning more than $1 million annually and a 1.5 percent tax on couples earning between $500,000 and $1 million. Households earning more than $350,000 would get hit with a 1 percent tax.

House Democrats want to require individuals and employers to get health insurance -- or pay a penalty.

For individuals, the penalty would be 2.5 percent of income -- but it could go no higher than the average cost of health insurance.

The penalty for employers would be much higher -- 8 percent of a worker's wages -- with an exemption for small businesses. Business groups are strongly opposing an employer requirement.

that was last week, lots has changed since then. I know the $2500 number came up at the end of the week/beginning of this week in another committee.

Also, the Small Business exemption, thats up to debate as the committee never defined what "small business" was. As of Wednesday, that was anyone making $280,000 up=RIch, small business, who knows

[preferredduck]

Did you know that if you are 40 or younger right now, chances are you will make it to 100? That is a fact (I do PR for a doctor who wrote a book on it). Marinate on that for a minute as it pertains to health care. Do we really want EVERYONE living until they are 100? Most centenarians haven't prepared their money or their bodies to live that long and they are living in squaller or in nursing homes because of it. People live this long because of our advanced health care. I can't be for sure if God or Allah or George made our bodies and mind to make it that far. Are we fucking up that plan?

Whoa. I went there :D

well when the gov't takes over health care alot wont make it to 100 because it will somehow help with population control. you should look at some of the books written by some of obama's appointed officials clearly stating they would like to reduce the population. i'll have to find the person and the link.

[preferredduck]

Personally I'm talking about volunteering more than money. One of the biggest issues in the black community is the lack of father figures and I stress (even I have been guilty of this since i focus more on my own son) that more black men need to step up and pick up the slack. Rather than worry about 24's worry about these kids and their grades. That is just an example of resources that should be given back, obviously the issue is bigger than just one race.

Obviously what your brother does not need is just money thrown at him. More people need to step up and lend a hand to those in need rather than sit on the sideline and point fingers. You are always going to have those situations where the person doesn't want help or cannot be helped, but for every one of those i guarantee there are 5 that will gladly take that help and make the most of it.

AMEN!! don't let her brother get those 24's cuz you know they will be sold in a hearbeat. well said man. alot of people will help out one another, sometimes they just need to ask.

[preferredduck]

have you guys seen the proposed list of about 1000 new ways to tax us and some places are ebing paid to experiment with these new ideas in their community, of course they are getting paid for the trial. we are all going to get taxed to death so who cares about healthcare we won't need it if we are taxed to death.
one post bt vteckidd said they will enslave us this way and it is very true. esp with the national debt rising faster than an old man's wood in a college girls locker room.

[eraser4g63]

Ok to clear up a few things, my wife who is a teacher with a four year degree makes in the mid 40k a year. I as a paramedic (Without a fire degree) make in the mid 40s as well. The actually degree you receive as a paramedic is an assoc. in "emergency medical science" though the piece of paper they give you is not worth wiping your ass with. Most Firefighters ( with just an EMT cert) make in the mid 30k range. Fire-medics make in the mid 50k a year. In all reality we as public servants are grossly under paid, because when you put when you put in perspective RNs (Who take orders from a Dr. and work in a clean stable environment) make in the mid 60k-70k a year while Paramedics ( who work in dynamic environments and have to free think and make medical decisions based on gut instinct) only make 40-50k a year. There is a lot more information that goes into this argument but I will spare you all the details unless requested. on a separate note, part of the reason medical care is so costly is the Malpractice insurance and people skipping out on their bills, I agree that it sucks people don't have medical insurance but there are alternative ways to cut the cost of Insurance starting on putting limitations on Malpractice suits or forcing those who skip on Medical bills to pay them by placing leins on residences or filing suit against them bill skip. Dekalb Fire/rescue does this now by attaching you bill to you water bill and as we all know you cant live without water. 99% of the time a hospital/Ambulance service will work out a payment plan with the individual, so that you do not have to pay it all up front.

[btstone]

I love these threads.....Obama has done nothing for this country yet, but he keps forcing shit through because it has to be done. his socialist views ppl dont even see. they just think its cool cuz Obama is a good speaker and the first black president. nevermind he seems to be on eof the dumbest fuckers in Washington

[Tracy]

I thinks it awesome how everyone blames our country's woes on a man who has been in office like 6 mos. That's not to say I agree with the things he has or is going to do, that is just to say OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. He didn't do this to us. Anyone who had been put in his position would be the butt of scrutiny from our citizens. This country is in a world of shit and I don't think ANY president would have everyone's approval given our circumstances. Everyone wants to complain about his decisions, but then when we have discussions like this, no one can answer the damn question....what would you do?

I mean I asked about 500 times in this thread how would we decide who is worthy of the benefits of free medical care and tax breaks....but no one could or did answer me. All anyone could do is refer me to what is being proposed...but I asked basically, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE ALL THE MISTAKES BUSH MADE TO GET US IN THIS POSITION? Bush walked out of office and never looked back. He doesn't have to held accountable for his HUGE mistakes, but the new administration does.

Bush Jr. vowed to NEVER raise taxes because he saw what it did to his father when he raised taxes, despite his promise not to. He didn't get his second term. Lesson learned by Jr. Even the beloved Reagan raised taxes when he saw we were getting into too much debt. What did Jr. do? Started 2 wars, then LOWERED taxes. Are you fucking kidding me? We had a budget surplus when Bush Jr. came into office, but Bush decided to not not keep the policies that got us that surplus when they expired.

We already have free health care. It goes to our largest voting population, the elderly. No one wants to take it away because of politics. If they do, the old people won't vote for you. Then you don't win. NO POLITICIAN is in it to take care of our country. It is ALL politics. Black, white, purple, man, woman, catholic, muslim, jewish, agnostic. Everyone has their own agenda. SO GET FUCKING USED TO IT.

[BanginJimmy]

who is worthy of the benefits of free medical care

absolutely no one. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The person getting the healthcare may not pay for it, but someone else is and if anyone but the govt did it, it would be called theft of services.



and tax breaks

Look at the group that single handedly pays for more than 75% of the govt.




WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE ALL THE MISTAKES BUSH MADE TO GET US IN THIS POSITION? Bush walked out of office and never looked back. He doesn't have to held accountable for his HUGE mistakes, but the new administration does.

First I would look at the root causes, which mostly started during the Clinton era. Ignoring repeated terrorist attacks, and the CRA being the biggest. War on Terror and the housing market collapse were got their start there. Bush's only mistake economically was ignoring all of the warnings he received prior to 2005.

WOT was something that needed to be done a decade before it happeend. The US was a constant target for attacks that were steadily escalating in their frequency, size and complexity. It wouldnt have been much longer before we saw some type of chemical or biological attack on this country. Even nuke, such as a dirty bomb, was a real possibility.

You start off saying w shouldnt blame Obama, but why not? All of his economic policies are designed to keep us in a recession, or at the very least, do not make it possible for a recovery. His plans for Iraq are simply to cut and run away. He has never given a single detail about how his plans are supposed to be run or how much they will really cost. He is simply about fear mongering to get as much faulty legislation passed as quickly as possible.
Then you say blame Bush, yet the 2 things you mention were in place before Bush was even in office. The CRA amendments that forced banks to give out bad loans were put in place by Clinton in '93. Right before the '94 takeover of both houses. And as I have stated before, Clinton's ignoring of terrorism led to the eventual attacks of 2001. If Clinton would have acted forcefully after 1 of them many attacks while he was in poffice, 2001 would not have happened.


Lastly, this brings me back to 1 final point. Out immigration policies are a joke. ANYONE can simply walk into this country with no fear of being caught. Until our borders are secured we will ALWAYS remain an easy target for an attack. The Teeth of the Tiger by Tom Clancy outlines a very simple and effective way to do this. Very low tech and nearly impossible to defend against.

[The Creeper]

I don't see what the big deal is that a certain percentage of our country doesn't have health care. Survival of the fittest man. Also, this entire Democratic plan of reforming our health care system is a ploy. I mean, do any of you Obama/Democratic supporters think these politicians are sitting at home right now, tossing and turning, because they know there are some people out there without health care? Shit, if that's the case, why don't we take it a step further and just try and save the world from disease and hunger. Oh wait, they can't, because it is a impossibility. Politicians never really give a shit about the people, they care about themselves, their groups, and their own personal agendas. I thought everyone knew that politicians are some of the most corrupt, deceiving, conniving people on the planet?

[preferredduck]

I thinks it awesome how everyone blames our country's woes on a man who has been in office like 6 mos. That's not to say I agree with the things he has or is going to do, that is just to say OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. He didn't do this to us. Anyone who had been put in his position would be the butt of scrutiny from our citizens. This country is in a world of shit and I don't think ANY president would have everyone's approval given our circumstances. Everyone wants to complain about his decisions, but then when we have discussions like this, no one can answer the damn question....what would you do?

I mean I asked about 500 times in this thread how would we decide who is worthy of the benefits of free medical care and tax breaks....but no one could or did answer me. All anyone could do is refer me to what is being proposed...but I asked basically, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE ALL THE MISTAKES BUSH MADE TO GET US IN THIS POSITION? Bush walked out of office and never looked back. He doesn't have to held accountable for his HUGE mistakes, but the new administration does.

Bush Jr. vowed to NEVER raise taxes because he saw what it did to his father when he raised taxes, despite his promise not to. He didn't get his second term. Lesson learned by Jr. Even the beloved Reagan raised taxes when he saw we were getting into too much debt. What did Jr. do? Started 2 wars, then LOWERED taxes. Are you fucking kidding me? We had a budget surplus when Bush Jr. came into office, but Bush decided to not not keep the policies that got us that surplus when they expired.

We already have free health care. It goes to our largest voting population, the elderly. No one wants to take it away because of politics. If they do, the old people won't vote for you. Then you don't win. NO POLITICIAN is in it to take care of our country. It is ALL politics. Black, white, purple, man, woman, catholic, muslim, jewish, agnostic. Everyone has their own agenda. SO GET FUCKING USED TO IT.


slow down here, this country has been on a landslide to disaster since 1913. these problems have been going on for a long time and the last real president in my opinion was JFK. Bush Jr was an idiot and sadly he and both obamamama have thrown money at heir golfing buddies since october. remember bush last october using fear mongering to get the first round of TARP passed fast. another note obama has not been very transparent as he promised, he has also tried to push bills through in 24 hours without the public and Reps even reading it and he promised that would never happen again. wasteful spending, see 2nd bailout package.

so on to healthcare. lets borrow 10 trillion dollars to fix a corrupt and broken system and make it even more broken and corrupt. they cannot even balance the budget and read bills and pass a bunch of useless crap into law and you think they would treat our medical records differently. i dont think so. Trust me when i say only a few people will really benefit from this and it will be financially sadly enough. do the math on 6% interest on 10 trillion dollars.

[preferredduck]

Ok to clear up a few things, my wife who is a teacher with a four year degree makes in the mid 40k a year. I as a paramedic (Without a fire degree) make in the mid 40s as well. The actually degree you receive as a paramedic is an assoc. in "emergency medical science" though the piece of paper they give you is not worth wiping your ass with. Most Firefighters ( with just an EMT cert) make in the mid 30k range. Fire-medics make in the mid 50k a year. In all reality we as public servants are grossly under paid, because when you put when you put in perspective RNs (Who take orders from a Dr. and work in a clean stable environment) make in the mid 60k-70k a year while Paramedics ( who work in dynamic environments and have to free think and make medical decisions based on gut instinct) only make 40-50k a year. There is a lot more information that goes into this argument but I will spare you all the details unless requested. on a separate note, part of the reason medical care is so costly is the Malpractice insurance and people skipping out on their bills, I agree that it sucks people don't have medical insurance but there are alternative ways to cut the cost of Insurance starting on putting limitations on Malpractice suits or forcing those who skip on Medical bills to pay them by placing leins on residences or filing suit against them bill skip. Dekalb Fire/rescue does this now by attaching you bill to you water bill and as we all know you cant live without water. 99% of the time a hospital/Ambulance service will work out a payment plan with the individual, so that you do not have to pay it all up front.

i agree certain professions dont make enough money. i dont agree with medical leins. my grandfather did not go get a loan for a new cancer job, and my grandmother saved all her life for a heart attack. i did hospital billings and collections and most people tried to pay something towards it but half the hospitals we worked for had payment plan guidlines and if you did not meet it you had to jump through hoops for financial assistance. my brother was lied to by st mary's in athens about a procedure and they are trying to bill him for 13k and he had to pay what insurance wasn't going to cover upfront. i even went with him to verify this info because at my job i saw it happen all the time. people don't plan to have a medical emergency and in this economy many folks have prob stopped their payment plans because eating is more important right. it turns out these hospitals get big tax breaks and even gov't reimburstment for some cases. also if insurance can pay $800 on a bill that would be 10k cash pay whats the difference anyways. trust me on this i saw where ins companies paid pennies on the dollar to what a non-insured person would pay. if you have any further questions let me know. also the ambulance is billed seperately, then the DR bills, the nthe facility bills, radiologist, cardiologist, anesthesia, etc. you wind up with 12 bills for 1 visit and that sucks too.

[/QUOTE] I don't see what the big deal is that a certain percentage of our country doesn't have health care. Survival of the fittest man. Also, this entire Democratic plan of reforming our health care system is a ploy. I mean, do any of you Obama/Democratic supporters think these politicians are sitting at home right now, tossing and turning, because they know there are some people out there without health care? Shit, if that's the case, why don't we take it a step further and just try and save the world from disease and hunger. Oh wait, they can't, because it is a impossibility. Politicians never really give a shit about the people, they care about themselves, their groups, and their own personal agendas. I thought everyone knew that politicians are some of the most corrupt, deceiving, conniving people on the planet? [/QUOTE]

trust me they are not losing sleep here. they all have top notch medical care and even things us normal folks with insurance would be denied for. and guess what we foot the bill til the day they die so they sleep happily knowing their family is covered.

[tony]

I thinks it awesome how everyone blames our country's woes on a man who has been in office like 6 mos. That's not to say I agree with the things he has or is going to do, that is just to say OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES. He didn't do this to us. Anyone who had been put in his position would be the butt of scrutiny from our citizens. This country is in a world of shit and I don't think ANY president would have everyone's approval given our circumstances. Everyone wants to complain about his decisions, but then when we have discussions like this, no one can answer the damn question....what would you do?




The reason is, is that there is no simple answer. You're talking about a solution that is going to solve a major problem for MILLIONS of people. Someone isn't going to be happy, whether its the lower class, middle class or upper class. So as you said, who ends up with that burden? It just depends on where you stand. Personally I feel the upper class is better equipped to lose some benefit of wealth, and as a sidebar I'd like to say that I like this idea of "Wealth Redistritbution" where those who have wealth care accounting for income they have not even gained yet as theirs. Raising taxes is not a retroactive action, they don't come into your house and confiscate your assets.

[Tracy]

Yay some answers. All of which lead up to that Obama didn't cause the problems. They started in 1913 according to one. How COULD it be Obama's fault after 6 months? Like I said, that doesn't mean I agree or disagree with his plans. I spent the majority of the thread giving my story and stating how it will effect us, which is basically putting us out of business.

I understand he is the figure head and that's what he gets, but the real problem, IMO, is the system, not the man himself. I think our entire gov't and system needs reform more than our health care.

[Vteckidd]

Obama didn't start the problem but it's overzealous to think you can fix it in 30 days or 6 months.

That's like solving world terrorism in 30 days or world hunger or the economy.

Obama is scaring Americans into thinking that if we don't fix healthcare now the economy will collapse. Sound familiar?

If he wants to fix healthcare it needs to be through incentives or tax cuts to small business. Anything that adds cost to them right now is bad news

[BanginJimmy]

and as a sidebar I'd like to say that I like this idea of "Wealth Redistritbution"

So you are a communist? You wouldnt mind if he govt set your standard of living for you? You wouldnt mind that you spend 5 years in college busting your ass to get a degree and a good job, only to have half of what you make given to a HS dropout who spends his whole day smoking weed and drinking beer?

I am all for helping people out if they actually want help, but as for people that are simply living off the system, let the little parasites starve for all I care. They are a drain on everyone's resources and offer nothing in return.

[Tracy]

So you are a communist? You wouldnt mind if he govt set your standard of living for you? You wouldnt mind that you spend 5 years in college busting your ass to get a degree and a good job, only to have half of what you make given to a HS dropout who spends his whole day smoking weed and drinking beer?

I am all for helping people out if they actually want help, but as for people that are simply living off the system, let the little parasites starve for all I care. They are a drain on everyone's resources and offer nothing in return.

That's my brother :)

[BanginJimmy]

That's my brother :)

Dont mean to be personal Tracy, and I know it's a harsh mindset, but as long as deviant behavior is rewarded, it will continue.

[Tracy]

Dont mean to be personal Tracy, and I know it's a harsh mindset, but as long as deviant behavior is rewarded, it will continue.Don't worry about the personal stuff. I put it out there because I don't mind and I have nothing to hide.

I'm with ya and I agree. Thus why he has been completely out of my life for 6 years. I don't even let my parents talk to me about him. I don't feel sorry for him when they cry to me about how hard his life was....as they forget that I had the same exact life. They give him money while he is in jail making it to where they can't help me pay for my college. Ironic?

Like I said, he is able bodied, handsome and has his wits. He is lazy and pitiful and it sucks because I have part of some pretty amazing things that I would have loved to share with my little brother. I am just not willing to "reward" him, as you put it. I was PISSED when I found out he gets food stamps.

All goes back to my example. Sure he is poor, but he NOT less fortunate. He had the opportunity at 18 to change his life. Instead he chose to use his past as an excuse to get high and be a bum for the following 12 years....all while mooching off the gov't.

[Tracy]

P.S. Maybe Tony can give him some charity since he is so willing. Maybe HIS money will help turn him around even though no one else has been able to.

Let me know, Tony. I will forward his number to you.

[Vteckidd]

Yeah its easy to sit there and say "im all for wealth redistribution" , lets see it actually happen.

Tony i want you to donate 10% of your paycheck every month to Tracys brother. Hows that sound?

Survival of the Fittest, he who works hardest makes the most money, its as simple as that

[The Creeper]

Honestly, our health care system does need some work, but our economy and nation as a whole can't handle changing the health care system right now. I think a reform type plan should be initiated with a 10-20 year goal on it. What he is trying to do and push for is like trying to make a person who is 500 lbs over-weight healthy in 30 days. It is just simply impossible and takes a lot of TIME and careful planing and consideration.

[BanginJimmy]

Honestly, our health care system does need some work, but our economy and nation as a whole can't handle changing the health care system right now. I think a reform type plan should be initiated with a 10-20 year goal on it. What he is trying to do and push for is like trying to make a person who is 500 lbs over-weight healthy in 30 days. It is just simply impossible and takes a lot of TIME and careful planing and consideration.

Careful planning and time are 2 things Obama needs to avoid to get this through. The longer this sits in committee the better chance we have at avoiding it.


No one is arguing that our healthcare system has issues. There are reforms that need to be made, but nationalizing it is NOT the thing to do. A better idea would be to institute govt subsidized major medical plan that is initiated through private insurance companies. Something that doesnt cover regular visits of prescriptions, but does cover that horrible car accident, or that heart attack. This plan should only be available to people that are on unemployment, or can prove their employer does not offer health coverage.

[81911SC]

Yeah its easy to sit there and say "im all for wealth redistribution" , lets see it actually happen.

Tony i want you to donate 10% of your paycheck every month to Tracys brother. Hows that sound?

Survival of the Fittest, he who works hardest makes the most money, its as simple as thatI'd like to see that happen too.
I cannot believe people support this "redistribution of wealth" Umm, no.

[Joshb0809]

How about congress just impeach the most left winged liberal, socialist, what ever.

Oh wait they cant.. Because the majority of congress and the house is his left winged liberal brothers!!! Damn it!!!

This country is further going down a socialist path every day.. Why don't we just call this Obama's House of Pain!

Money Spender- The rate hes going hes already spent way much more than bush and prior presidents combined.... THE MOST HE CAN DO IS SPEND IT "WISELY"

How about another damn Government runned health plan!! OMG!! Thats exactly what we need... lmao

And we voted for this man.... Why?

Oh right.. More Government.. Thats right.. More freedom for the GOVERNMENT!!! WOO HOOOO!!!!!!

[tony]

P.S. Maybe Tony can give him some charity since he is so willing. Maybe HIS money will help turn him around even though no one else has been able to.

Let me know, Tony. I will forward his number to you.

I said earlier that throwing money at certain issues would be a waste of time. A Universal Healthcare plan does not solve world peace, it just gives those who need the help that they require exactly that.. help. There is still personal accountability and you will always have those that get over on the system, its inevitable, but the majority of those do not. Ask a Dr. yourself, many of those on medicaid currently do not even take advantage of the benefit.

But I digress, the majority of the sentiment here is against a plan such as this one. We've discussed this issue at naseum in thread after thread with the same people saying the same thing. I'll keep doing what I do, and yes Mike if someone is in dire need I'll gladly give 10%, at the end of the day it is nothing more than currency and I am my brother's keeper.

Matter of fact my last paycheck was $1500, even though I just donated to the Salvation Army I'll take you up on that challenge Mike. I don't know what I could offer Tracy's brother but I know personally how underfunded Sickle Cell and those with it often cannot afford the treatment, I myself have a variation of Sickle Cell and carry the trait.. those in the know know why it is underfunded.. I'll leave it at that. $150 donation.


Thank you Robert Abrom
A donation in the amount of $150 has been made in your name.

Thank you for helping to provide vital support to the Association's
growth and development.

Donation Amount: $150
Your reference number is DON-2005000780.
Visa Card: XXXX-4751
Expiration: 11/11


The Sickle Cell Disease Association of America, Inc.
is registered with the Maryland Secretary of State and is a
501(c)(3) organization and contributions to it are
tax-deductible to the extent allowed by law.

I'm done with this thread, yall do what you do I'll continue to do what I do.

[Vteckidd]

Ahh but Tony you just proved my point. I didn't make you donate and you chose who you wanted to donate to. Good for you

Obama wants to decide for you

I donate to charity all the time. I donated a $200 wii for the memorial for Lisa for that raffle, I give money to charitys from md to diabetes to battered women etc. But I choose where how and when to spend my money

/thread

[BanginJimmy]

Ahh but Tony you just proved my point. I didn't make you donate and you chose who you wanted to donate to. Good for you

Obama wants to decide for you

I donate to charity all the time. I donated a $200 wii for the memorial for Lisa for that raffle, I give money to charitys from md to diabetes to battered women etc. But I choose where how and when to spend my money

/thread

You just stole my basic response.

Instead of you choosing who to donate to, I should choose who you donate to. Apparently we are all going to be donating millions, if not billions, to an organization that in under investigation for voter fraud in about a dozen states. How do you feel about that.

[Tracy]

I think it's sad that you can't stand your ground and continue the discussion. I am personally not angry at anyone and am not trying to be right or any of that type of thing. I don't choose parties or titles of any kind. I take things issue by issue because no one is going to make me conform to a SET of beliefs based on affiliation alone.

[tony]

I think it's sad that you can't stand your ground and continue the discussion. I am personally not angry at anyone and am not trying to be right or any of that type of thing. I don't choose parties or titles of any kind. I take things issue by issue because no one is going to make me conform to a SET of beliefs based on affiliation alone.

Tracy my leaving this thread wasn't about not wanting to engage you. I can post up 5 threads that had the exact same conversation we have here and nobody approaches the thread objectively, a month or a week later another thread starts and we are back at square one.

There is constructive arguments and then there is wasting time.. this is wasting time when I'm having the same conversation next month with the same talking points with the same people.

[Tracy]

Tracy my leaving this thread wasn't about not wanting to engage you. I can post up 5 threads that had the exact same conversation we have here and nobody approaches the thread objectively, a month or a week later another thread starts and we are back at square one.

There is constructive arguments and then there is wasting time.. this is wasting time when I'm having the same conversation next month with the same talking points with the same people.I don't agree, but you are entitled to your own feelings. When I am getting beat down, I stand my ground. So, maybe that's why I don't understand. I have been as objective as possible while using subjective examples to prove a point (I know you may or may not be referring to me). You weren't able to or chose to not respond to a lot of where I was coming from. Instead you chose to get mad at Mike and Jimmy.

Maybe my critical thinking class has taught me more than I thought. I can spot a consistent, contradictory or contrary argument a mile away and have been studying up on how to combat all 3.

I just feel like you avoided most of MY questions and I rarely engage in the political arguments.

[tony]

I don't agree, but you are entitled to your own feelings. When I am getting beat down, I stand my ground. So, maybe that's why I don't understand. I have been as objective as possible while using subjective examples to prove a point (I know you may or may not be referring to me). You weren't able to or chose to not respond to a lot of where I was coming from. Instead you chose to get mad at Mike and Jimmy.

Maybe my critical thinking class has taught me more than I thought. I can spot a consistent, contradictory or contrary argument a mile away and have been studying up on how to combat all 3.

I just feel like you avoided most of MY questions and I rarely engage in the political arguments.

I just don't have this undying need to be right in the minds of others.. I pick and choose my battles rather than defend my point to every person that opposes it.

From a critical thinking standpoint we're speaking on hypotheticals because nobody really knows the outcome and result of a Universal Plan. You asked who decides who is offered a benefit and who is not, I stated that there will always be those who take advantage of the system but you cannot allow that to limit the benefit because the people who need is greater than those who are looking to get over.

There is no simple answer to problem. This is not just If A then B, if that was the case this would have been solved years ago. What I offer here is the opposing view, I was initially against a Universal Plan but after some research and seeing examples my mind changed. If you want to engage me on this and be objective I'll answer you without distraction.

[Tracy]

I am for a universal plan also, as I stated. Just not this one.

[tony]

A lot of people feel the plan does not go far enough, I opt more for a single payer plan and there is a lot of transparency in what Obama is proposing but it is a start.

[TIGERJC]

I think health care needs to wait until we first cut back gov't spending in other areas before even thinking about reforming Health care. Corruption and hidden agendas is going to ruin this country

[Vteckidd]

I think health care is one of those things that is best decided by the individual. In that sense I'm against universal health care. I think a plan that gives businesses tax breaks for offering care or a plan that allows businesses to band together is what is needed

[F8d2Blk]

Read through the first few pages. Lots of good arguments but for those that believe there are actually 2 parties, are still blinded. They will pass a universal healthcare soon and it will send us deeper into recession.

Listen to the man for the first minute of the video. It speaks volumes.

Ron Paul Video from 1988 (http://media.abovetopsecret.com/media/3400/Ron_Paul_The_American_Power_Elite_-_Vintage_Video_from_1988/)

[BanginJimmy]

Tony, right now, if you had to pick which plan to get on, would you take your current insurance plan, or would you jump on to medicare? That is what we are being faced with right now. The only difference being that we wont have a choice.

[Vteckidd]

A lot of people feel the plan does not go far enough, I opt more for a single payer plan and there is a lot of transparency in what Obama is proposing but it is a start.
I wouldnt call cloak and dagger and telling HALF truths transparency. he has lied volumes on the implications of his medical plan. That has been proven.

[BanginJimmy]

I wouldnt call cloak and dagger and telling HALF truths transparency. he has lied volumes on the implications of his medical plan. That has been proven.

This is the same transparency we have seen from the administration since November. All we ever hear from Obama is how his perfect piece of legislation will avoid a crisis, yet the dems refuse to give up details in a timely manner and are known for throwing in amendments late at night for an early morning vote. Just like they did with the pork bill, cap and trade and the other spending bill that I cant remember the name of.

We wont even go into the quickly growing list of flat out lies he has told in the last 8 months.

[tony]

Tony, right now, if you had to pick which plan to get on, would you take your current insurance plan, or would you jump on to medicare? That is what we are being faced with right now. The only difference being that we wont have a choice.


Honestly, medicare. No high ass deductible.

[BanginJimmy]

Honestly, medicare. No high ass deductible.

I prefer quality of care over cash, but then again, I will have very nice insurance come Sept 1. The most I would have to pay is a $150 inpatient hospital co-pay. This is from a plan that will cost just under 1600/yr for me and my wife.

[tony]

I prefer quality of care over cash, but then again, I will have very nice insurance come Sept 1. The most I would have to pay is a $150 inpatient hospital co-pay. This is from a plan that will cost just under 1600/yr for me and my wife.

My mother is on medicaid now, when she went to Kennestone for congestive heart failure they put her in her own room in the Women's center which was newly built.. constant care and attention, looked pretty quality to me. Matter of fact it was better than I received from my insurance when I had to go in.

[Vteckidd]

Its kinda like, would you rather pay more to have a quality car auto insurance like GEICO or Progressive, or go with Jim Bobs Insurance Agency.

Sure Jim Bob may be cheap, but when you get in an accident, you are going to deal with delays, lack of coverage, funds, etc.

WASHINGTON – After weeks of secretive talks, a bipartisan group in the Senate edged closer Monday to a health care compromise that omits a requirement for businesses to offer coverage to their workers and lacks a government insurance option that President Barack Obama favors, according to numerous officials.

Like bills drafted by Democrats, the proposal under discussion by six members on the Senate Finance Committee would bar insurance companies from denying coverage to any applicant. Nor could insurers charge higher premiums on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions.

But it jettisons other core Democratic provisions in a reach for bipartisanship on an issue that has so far produced little.

The effort received a boost during the day from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, normally a close ally of Republicans. In a letter to committee leaders, the business group called for the panel to "act promptly, preferably before" the Senate's scheduled vacation at the end of next week. In doing so, the business organization dealt a blow to the Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and other GOP lawmakers who have called repeatedly for Democrats to slow down.

In yet another boost for the drive to enact legislation, PhRMA, which represents drug companies, has purchased more than $500,000 worth of television ads to air during the week in nine states.

Obama's top domestic priority has suffered numerous setbacks in recent weeks, and Republicans have stepped up their criticism. A Senate vote has been postponed until September. Administration and Democratic leaders hope to show significant progress before lawmakers begin their monthlong recess in hopes of regaining momentum.

In the House, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said, "We're on schedule to do it now or do it whenever," when asked whether the House would complete its bill before lawmakers leave at the end of the week. Democrats called a meeting of all their House members late Monday afternoon.

In the Senate, officials stressed that no agreement has been reached on a bipartisan measure, and said there is no guarantee of one. They also warned that numerous key issues remain to be settled, including several options to pay for the legislation. They spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they were not authorized to discuss matters under private negotiations.

They said any legislation that emerges from the talks is expected to provide for a nonprofit cooperative to sell insurance in competition with private industry, rather than giving the federal government a role in the marketplace. The White House and numerous Democrats in Congress have called for a government option to provide competition to private companies and hold down costs.

One of the senators involved in the talks, Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, confirmed that co-ops are the preferred approach. "The co-op is certainly one of the prominent options that is on the table," Snowe told reporters after the group met Monday. "It's safe to say that'll probably remain in the final document."

Officials also said a bipartisan compromise would not subject companies to a penalty if they declined to offer coverage to their workers. Instead, these businesses would be required to reimburse the government for part or all of any federal subsidies designed to help lower-income employees obtain insurance on their own.

Snowe said the idea is to discourage employers from dropping coverage because under the plan their workers could get government assistance to pay premiums. "We don't want to undermine (employer coverage) or create a perverse incentive where employers potentially drop coverage because their employees can get subsidies," she said.

Democratic-drafted legislation in the House includes both a penalty and a requirement for companies to share in the cost of covering employees.

Additionally, negotiators are likely to call for a commission to recommend long-term savings in Medicare that would take effect automatically unless overturned by Congress. Unlike some of the other provisions, that is an issue that unites the White House and business groups seeking to rein in the cost of medical care.

Among tax increases likely to be adopted is an excise tax of as much as 35 percent on insurance with very high annual premiums, perhaps over $25,000.

The senators involved in the negotiations are all members of the Senate Finance Committee, and include Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., the chairman, and Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, the senior Republican. Others participating are Democratic Sens. Kent Conrad of North Dakota and Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico, and Republicans Snowe and Mike Enzi of Wyoming.

They have met for hours in recent weeks in Baucus' office, joined by aides and outside advisers such as actuaries summoned to explain arcane details of insurance. Douglas Elmendorf, head of the Congressional Budget Office, has also attended.

Baucus has been under intense pressure from the White House and Senate Democrats in recent weeks to convene the committee to vote out legislation to advance Obama's goal of extending health care to millions who lack it while curbing the explosive growth of health care costs overall. He has so far declined to do so, opting to give the bipartisan negotiations as much time as needed to succeed.

Several Democratic officials have said he recently pledged to Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., that the committee would meet next week to vote on legislation, a timetable that implies time is growing short for the bipartisan group to wrap up its work.

"We're going to get agreement here," Baucus said Monday. "The group of six really wants to get to 'yes.' "

Much of the cost of the proposal would come from curbing the growth in fees to insurance companies and other providers under Medicare.

But congressional aides in both parties as well as lobbyists said a proposal limiting Flexible Savings Accounts to $2,000 annually is also a strong possibility. FSAs permit the use of pretax income to pay for items such as health care and child care.

Negotiators also are considering fees on the manufacturers of medical devices and on the makers of both brand name and generic drugs coming onto the market.

To cut down on the cost of the bill, the bipartisan group may include only one year of a long-term plan to adjust reimbursement fees under Medicare.

Officials said the legislation under discussion in a series of private meetings would likely cost under $1 trillion, include an expansion of Medicaid, and provide federal subsidies for individuals and families up to 300 percent of poverty to spread health care more broadly.

Individuals would have a mandate to buy affordable insurance, but companies would not have a requirement to offer it.

It was not clear whether companies would be required to reimburse Medicaid, the government health care program for the poor, for the cost of covering any employees enrolled.

Nor was it clear what, if any, provision the proposal would include to make sure companies did not simply withdraw insurance as a fringe benefit to millions of workers who now have it.

[preferredduck]

Obama didn't start the problem but it's overzealous to think you can fix it in 30 days or 6 months.

That's like solving world terrorism in 30 days or world hunger or the economy.

Obama is scaring Americans into thinking that if we don't fix healthcare now the economy will collapse. Sound familiar?

If he wants to fix healthcare it needs to be through incentives or tax cuts to small business. Anything that adds cost to them right now is bad news

sounds very familiar actually. are we gonna get a government rebate on our kidney transplant now. how is that going to work we can't recycle ourselves. lol.

[preferredduck]

Careful planning and time are 2 things Obama needs to avoid to get this through. The longer this sits in committee the better chance we have at avoiding it.


No one is arguing that our healthcare system has issues. There are reforms that need to be made, but nationalizing it is NOT the thing to do. A better idea would be to institute govt subsidized major medical plan that is initiated through private insurance companies. Something that doesnt cover regular visits of prescriptions, but does cover that horrible car accident, or that heart attack. This plan should only be available to people that are on unemployment, or can prove their employer does not offer health coverage.

what about people with permanent injuries that need help to gety a job and get insurance so they can get treatment. i went through this and it sucked and with the meds i take its hard to find a job.

[preferredduck]

on a serious note one way to get some funding for healthcare would be to legalize marijuana. not only would people smoke it but it would creat jobs with hash bars, growers, processors and would even help reduce the amount of lumber used for paper since it's a renewable fast growing crop and could be used for paper, ropes(we would not have had ships back in the day if it wasn't for this) oils, and even plastics from the oils, clothing, etc. that would actually generate a truckload of revenue just from the smokers. it also has mant medicinal purposes also and now that vaporizers are cheaper it would not hurt the lungs at all. look at alcohol, regardless of the economy ot would make money and that moeny generated would help the uninsured bocome insured and the system would not have to be changed to a gov't run entity.

[Vteckidd]

Im actually in favor of legalizing marijuana

[BanginJimmy]

what about people with permanent injuries that need help to gety a job and get insurance so they can get treatment. i went through this and it sucked and with the meds i take its hard to find a job.

Sort of the same thing I said earlier. Some people will be losers in EVERY situation. I know its harsh, and I know its not fair to everyone, and I know how bad it sucks. There is just no other answer I can give you.

[preferredduck]

Sort of the same thing I said earlier. Some people will be losers in EVERY situation. I know its harsh, and I know its not fair to everyone, and I know how bad it sucks. There is just no other answer I can give you.

yea no matter what i tried to get a temporary type mediciad for my neck i was shut down. i just needed a little help until i could get coverage again. yet i know of people who personally ride the system for free and thier whole family has. im going to be in pain the rest of my life and im sure there will be a time i need help again until i can get hings right again. but sadly i dont fit the description to get help at all. if i were a woman i could atleast have a jid and get medicaid, lol. but i cant even do that.

[preferredduck]

Im actually in favor of legalizing marijuana

me too, there are more uses than just smoking it and it would be the biggest cash crop on the planet.

[Julio]

where do I signup to ..

Pay less Taxes ?

Pay less for healthcare ?


I guess asking Obama about Fairtax right now wouldnt be such a good idea huh.. ?

[BanginJimmy]

Obama would tell you that the fairtax is just an attack on the exploited poor people by rich white people

[mmmmpsi]

I don't know if this one has been mentioned here or not.. but this is absolutely DISGUSTING.. SO much for good paying decent JOBS in America.. He just fucked another 5200 people..

USEC to Pursue Discussions on Loan Guarantee

Demobilization Will Proceed

BETHESDA, Md.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--USEC Inc. (NYSE:USU) announced that it is requesting that the Obama administration review further the economic recovery and national and energy security benefits of providing a loan guarantee for the American Centrifuge Plant in Piketon, Ohio. This announcement comes in response to the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) request that USEC withdraw its application for loan guarantee funding.

“We believe the American Centrifuge Plant meets the financial and technical requirements of the Department’s Loan Guarantee Program as well as numerous Obama administration policy objectives,” said John K. Welch, USEC president and chief executive officer. “Accordingly, we plan to pursue further discussions with DOE to work with them to address any remaining technical and financial concerns they may have.

“As a result of the current uncertainty regarding DOE loan guarantee funding, we have been forced to begin the process of demobilizing the project and initiating layoffs that will directly affect nearly 2,000 current USEC and contractor employees in Ohio and several other states in the near term and indirectly impact thousands more,” Welch added.

“Reluctantly, we have no choice but to begin demobilization. However, we hope that the demobilization process can be averted by quick action by the Obama administration. USEC is prepared to work with DOE and the Obama administration to fashion a mutually acceptable loan guarantee that protects the taxpayers’ interests, while providing the financing needed to deploy the American Centrifuge Plant.

“We previously provided DOE with a financially sound path forward for completing the project. Specifically, to ensure repayment and protect U.S. taxpayers, USEC offered to provide a $1 billion parent guarantee that would be fully collateralized by non-project, corporate assets,” Welch added. “This structure would allow DOE to proceed with funding on a fully protected basis and avoid demobilization while USEC would continue to address any remaining technical and financial issues over the next 9-12 months. This offer is still on the table, and we believe it can provide the path to prompt implementation of federal loan guarantee funding for this important national project.”

USEC also disagrees with DOE’s characterization that the American Centrifuge technology is not technologically ready to move to commercial operations. Building upon DOE’s decade of experience with centrifuge machines, USEC has operated the centrifuges for over 235,000 machine hours, giving the Company data and expertise to begin the transition to commercial operation.

USEC’s customers have also expressed confidence in the technology and have already committed to purchasing over half of the initial, planned output of the American Centrifuge Plant. Christopher M. Crane, president and chief operating officer of Exelon, the largest nuclear utility in the United States, said: "We have confidence in the American Centrifuge technology, and we believe it would be an important player in the future of uranium enrichment.”

USEC strongly believes in the American Centrifuge technology and is committed to further interactions with DOE and the Obama administration to find an acceptable path forward. As America's only commercial uranium enrichment facility using U.S.-owned and operated centrifuge technology, the American Centrifuge Plant can play an important role in America's energy security and national security.

USEC Inc., a global energy company, is a leading supplier of enriched uranium fuel for commercial nuclear power plants.

[mmmmpsi]

Department of Energy Denies USEC’s Loan Guarantee Application
-Company begins demobilization of American Centrifuge Plant-

BETHESDA, Md. – USEC Inc. (NYSE:USU) President and Chief Executive Officer John K. Welch issued the following statement today after being advised that the U.S. Department of Energy would not proceed with USEC’s application for a loan guarantee to complete construction of the American Centrifuge Plant in Piketon, Ohio:

“We are shocked and disappointed by DOE’s decision. The American Centrifuge met the original intent of the loan guarantee program in that it would have used an innovative, but proven, technology, reduced greenhouse gas emissions and created thousands of immediate jobs across the United States.

“Our application has been pending for a year, and we have addressed any concerns the Department raised. Technically, we operated the American Centrifuge technology in a lead cascade for approximately 235,000 machine hours. Financially, we have invested $1.5 billion dollars in the project and offered $1 billion of additional corporate support. It is unclear how DOE expects to find innovative technologies that assume zero risk, but the American Centrifuge clearly meets the energy security and climate change goals of the Obama administration.

“With DOE’s decision, we are now forced to initiate steps to demobilize the project. We deeply regret the impact this decision will have on all those affected, but as we have stated in the past, a DOE loan guarantee was the path forward to completing financing for the project. Instead of creating thousands of jobs across the country, we are faced with losing them. Instead of reducing our dependence on foreign sources of energy, we are now increasing it. President Obama promised to support the loan guarantee for the American Centrifuge Plant while he campaigned in Ohio. We are disappointed that campaign commitment has not been met.

“Despite this setback, our core existing business remains strong. Our Paducah plant is running at its highest efficiency ever and we finished the second quarter with $78 million of cash on hand. We still believe strongly in the American Centrifuge technology and we still believe it is ready to be deployed. We will continue our American Centrifuge development work in Piketon, Ohio, and Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

“We remain focused on shareholder value and have engaged outside advisors to evaluate our strategic alternatives.”

[BanginJimmy]

President Obama promised to support the loan guarantee for the American Centrifuge Plant while he campaigned in Ohio. We are disappointed that campaign commitment has not been met.

Not a surprise at all, the punk has done nothing but lie to anyone that will listen to him. This just makes 1 more of dozens of high profile lies he has told in the last 6 months.

[Maverick]

i blame the jews

[tony]

Not a surprise at all, the punk has done nothing but lie to anyone that will listen to him. This just makes 1 more of dozens of high profile lies he has told in the last 6 months.


All this means is he's no different from any politician out there, and for those that are charmed by Obama its a bit of reality. Personally I like the guy but he's far from perfect.

[Vteckidd]

I dont think hes an evil sadistic person TRYING to do wrong. I think hes ignorant, immature on issues, doesnt understand the problems/concerns, naive , thinks govt can take care of everyone.

I think Bush was a nice guy i could have a beer with and converse. I bet Obama is too.

Too bad thats not the quality we need in a president

[BanginJimmy]

Too bad thats not the quality we need in a president


Do you honestly think someone with the proper skills, honor, and mentality to be a great president would put themselves and family through the smear campaign that has become a presidential election?

Until an election becomes more than who can spend the most money to smear their opponent, we will continue to get the same quality of people running for office.

[tony]

Do you honestly think someone with the proper skills, honor, and mentality to be a great president would put themselves and family through the smear campaign that has become a presidential election?

Until an election becomes more than who can spend the most money to smear their opponent, we will continue to get the same quality of people running for office.

And that is just it, politics isn't for good people.. its for those who can play the game. Doesn't matter if the president is black, red, yellow or brown at the end of the day they are politicians.

[BanginJimmy]

And that is just it, politics isn't for good people.. its for those who can play the game. Doesn't matter if the president is black, red, yellow or brown at the end of the day they are politicians.

Yet everyday we wonder how we got into the messes we are in now. Every 2 years we vote egotistical, power hungry people into positions of power because they know how to 'play the game'.

[ahabion]

Yet everyday we wonder how we got into the messes we are in now. Every 2 years we vote egotistical, power hungry people into positions of power because they know how to 'play the game'.

Tony, Vtekkid, Bangin... lets all rejoice to know that we've just been played... I'm glad politicians know how to play the game and Americans as a whole don't, phew!... What would the game be like for the general populace that would actually involve REAL LIFE... the game with real people, with real issues, with real families who go through real dilemmas and real struggles... and politicians are just playing games... Oh wait... that's reality television isn't it? WOW! (full of sarcasm here...)

After reading the first 6 pages, if this thing goes through, my wife and I are... shall we say... f*****

My wife is employed with one of the largest health insurance providers out there. If private insurance is tanked because of this bill... they'll cut jobs left and right. If she looses her job (she is the bread winner between us) then we'll not be able to pay our mortgage. (but i'm glad obama will allow us to rent our house from the gov't... right?) So we'll lose our house, income, probably our car cuz we can't pay for that anymore... be forced to move into my parents double-wide in South Carolina... not be able to find a job up there cuz economy sucks even more up there than in ATL.

Even penny we do make will be taxed to hell (cuz let's be honest... the "rich" know how to make themselves "look" not rich... because they're smart with money... so why wouldn't they NOT know)... so we'll be taxed to hell because they can't collect enough money for whatever freakin reason the gov't says they need money.

Thanks Obama... for being the saving grace of America... I've still yet to see my raise in my unemployment checks from the stimulus package... OH WAIT... you need that money from taxes first before you can give me that raise??? OH!!! Well... here's $2500 dollars in taxes from unemployment and I get to have that $550/year raise now, right?

I think Whoopi says it best... Here's to you TONY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rWNlaxrwyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDd1zmKu64U

Her a$$ voted for this!

[Sinfix_15]

i was listening to the Ricky Smiley morning show and they said the only reason Obama hasnt changed the world is because the white man is rejecting all of his proposals because he's black.

[tony]

You really think Ricky Smiley is a credible source on Politics?

[tony]

My wife is employed with one of the largest health insurance providers out there. If private insurance is tanked because of this bill... they'll cut jobs left and right. If she looses her job (she is the bread winner between us) then we'll not be able to pay our mortgage. (but i'm glad obama will allow us to rent our house from the gov't... right?) So we'll lose our house, income, probably our car cuz we can't pay for that anymore... be forced to move into my parents double-wide in South Carolina... not be able to find a job up there cuz economy sucks even more up there than in ATL.

!

Now how do you figure? If anything there will be a much greater demand for those in the healthcare industry. See this is my issue, you guys argue against this without even understanding the plan. THIS IS NOT A SINGLE PAYER PLAN! Hell I wish it was but it is not, therefor it does not wipe out private insurance companies. So much panic over nothing.

[BanginJimmy]

Now how do you figure? If anything there will be a much greater demand for those in the healthcare industry.

When a nurse's salary is cappe out at 35k a ear or so, it will prevent most people from going into an RN program that costs 75k.

The same is true of the doctor who will have his payments cut because the govt is out of money in Oct.




See this is my issue, you guys argue against this without even understanding the plan. THIS IS NOT A SINGLE PAYER PLAN! Hell I wish it was but it is not, therefor it does not wipe out private insurance companies. So much panic over nothing.

Let me try this for the 4th or 5th time. Lets say company A sells its product to other companies costing $xx and all the sudden the govt steps in and sells the same product for less, and at the same time hits company A's customers with an added tax on that product. How long do you really think Company A can stay in business?

Now imagine that company A makes up 17% of our GDP.

[ahabion]

Now how do you figure? If anything there will be a much greater demand for those in the healthcare industry. See this is my issue, you guys argue against this without even understanding the plan. THIS IS NOT A SINGLE PAYER PLAN! Hell I wish it was but it is not, therefor it does not wipe out private insurance companies. So much panic over nothing.

Don't mistake HEALTH CARE with HEALTH INSURANCE... two totally different concepts. The healthcare in America is outstanding... ANYONE can go into a hospital and get the care and medical attention they need in order to save a life. Immigrants can go come into America and have a baby with NO Insurance, NO Coverage, NO Cash and still receive medical attention... think about that... Kids with poor parents but got their arms broken playing football, teens with a gunshot wound from their friends, adults who are homeless and alone can all get medical attention... What these people DON'T want is the bill that comes afterwards (where insurance, coverage, medicaid) would have kicked in.

With the government now giving everyone coverage, HEALTH INSURANCE will no longer be needed since everyone has universal coverage. So what happens when health insurance is no longer needed... (supply/demand?) So what happens to people working in the insurance industry?

Companies who cannot pay the fine or simply doesn't find it feasible financially to pay taxes on the coverage they offer will drop private insurance. Private insurance companies will need to raise rates in order to stay afloat from all the loss of income from their clients (companies) and will be pushed out by the government because of universal coverage.

Since you are military, you should be familiar with the F-22 development at Lockheed Martin. My wife's employer (confidential info :)), is the insurance company that insures the employees there currently. IF the universal coverage goes into affect, Lockheed Martin will drop (un-named insurance company) as a health insurer and go with the government plan. Now multiply that by over 9000 (because "this company" has that much in just one plan) and think about the revenue streams that would be lost to that... Large companies like Home Depot, Bank of America, Swift, Boeing, Southwest, etc will drop this insurer and go to the government plan... how is this helping the private insurance sector like Blue Cross Blue Shield, Aetna, Signa, Kaiser, etc??? How is being UNEMPLOYED good for me and my wife? How is Obama's plan GOOD for me and my wife if we can't pay bills? How is this GOOD for anyone who is happy with the service and coverage they get NOW from the above insurance companies?

F*** the people who can't afford to pay for coverage right now... tell me Tony, how is this GOOD for the working man with a wife and kids? How is this GOOD for single moms that need to rush their infant to the ER but can't because she is a lotto number with the hundreds of people in front of her? How is this GOOD for the elderly that needs their medication NOW or within a few weeks but WILL THEN need to wait over a year before they can get it?

[BobbyFresco]

i was listening to the Ricky Smiley morning show and they said the only reason Obama hasnt changed the world is because the white man is rejecting all of his proposals because he's black.


:lmfao:

People say the dumbest shit.
You know, for all the defending Black ppl I do on a regular basis, when public figures say shit like that, I can't help but to sit back and laugh at their utter and complete stupidity. I hope he wasn't being serious.

[AirMax95]

:lmfao:

People say the dumbest shit.
You know, for all the defending Black ppl I do on a regular basis, when public figures say shit like that, I can't help but to sit back and laugh at their utter and complete stupidity. I hope he wasn't being serious.

Ricky Smiley is a comedian that does grat communtiy service. Politics from him is going to be ignorance.

[BobbyFresco]

Ricky Smiley is a comedian that does grat communtiy service. Politics from him is going to be ignorance.

Political discussions on any radio station meant solely for entertainment is going to be asinine, regardless.

[techlord]

Don't mistake HEALTH CARE with HEALTH INSURANCE... two totally different concepts. The healthcare in America is outstanding... ANYONE can go into a hospital and get the care and medical attention they need in order to save a life. Immigrants can go come into America and have a baby with NO Insurance, NO Coverage, NO Cash and still receive medical attention... think about that...
Damn I just spent an 2hours reading 170 posts and you took the words right out of my mouth. lol
Who's not covered? As mentioned earlier the gov't will pick up the tab and it costs way less in teh low hudy billions not a few trillion. Care remains the same...
My suggestions to this debacle:
Tort reform I know it was mentioned several times
let the folks shop for insurance cross state lines - competition always lowers price
Ban any inquiry to pre-existing condition - This and referrals is more than 30% of the overhead.
I mean shit I don't go to the dr unless I am near death or cant function, I have been with the same ins for 15yrs. Recently I thought I blew out my knee and they battled for months whether this was pre-existing. They have insured me for a little less than half my life DONT THEY FUCKING KNOW!

I am pleased with the care I receive now and if the above and other ideas that simply wont come to mind after 2hrs of reading are solved voila surely that can get us close enough to insuring those in need or something acceptable.

Now to stray just a bit as some have:
they ram these bills down our throats without even reading them, this is permanent until we change the landscape and 6mo in this is a minimum 2yr wait.
Reducing taxes on everyone is immediate, had they chosen that road it could have been implemented in < 2weeks. Give it a little time and if it doesn't work LIKE TARP, TARP2, Omnibus, stimulus, whatever else BS has been forced on us, then move on to something else. I don't know what is going to fix this but whats going on now is fucking insane. We have massive debt LETS SPEND LIKE FUCKING CRAZY!

The Lies, fucking lies this dude has told is unfucking real. The tactics of his administration are unfathomable. I mean damn the mainstream media that got him elected are even gettin fed up.
/rant

[tony]

Let me try this for the 4th or 5th time. Lets say company A sells its product to other companies costing $xx and all the sudden the govt steps in and sells the same product for less, and at the same time hits company A's customers with an added tax on that product. How long do you really think Company A can stay in business?



UPS and FedEx do just fine.

[BanginJimmy]

Because they can provide their serv ice at a competitive price. That will not be the case with healthcare because the current piece of proposed legislation will fine companies for not offering coverage or tax them at a higher rate if they do. How long would fed ex and ups stay in business they had to add 8% to their prices?

[ahabion]

UPS and FedEx do just fine.

Next time you want to send $1000 worth of stuff, I'd like to see you use USPS! or how bout you send $1000 cash via USPS in a security envelope and see if the recipient gets it... hell I can't even send a $300 check via USPS without someone actually ripping it open and ripping the check along with it (happened 3 times, isolated incident? I'm sure). But you wouldn't get that with UPS or FedEX because all packages are tracked and covered with insurance... yea yea you can insure your USPS documents and you can get tracking on it too but gov't can't keep the same level assurance and guarantee that private organizations can (like next day air, early AM delivery OR YOUR MONEY BACK)... I'd end up paying more to get a lawyer before I get a dime from USPS.... besides, they don't call it snail mail for nothin'.

[Total_Blender]

But USPS works fine for sending regular letters and paying bills. Its better than nothing, and when it comes to health insurance, much of the country has nothing.

[bu villain]

Next time you want to send $1000 worth of stuff, I'd like to see you use USPS! or how bout you send $1000 cash via USPS in a security envelope and see if the recipient gets it... hell I can't even send a $300 check via USPS without someone actually ripping it open and ripping the check along with it (happened 3 times, isolated incident? I'm sure). But you wouldn't get that with UPS or FedEX because all packages are tracked and covered with insurance... yea yea you can insure your USPS documents and you can get tracking on it too but gov't can't keep the same level assurance and guarantee that private organizations can (like next day air, early AM delivery OR YOUR MONEY BACK)... I'd end up paying more to get a lawyer before I get a dime from USPS.... besides, they don't call it snail mail for nothin'.

So you arguing that private health insurance companies will still be fine if there is a govt option because they can provide better service and thus some people will be willing to pay the higher prices, right?

[zspeed24]

If that is the case then Malpractice Lawsuits should not be capped either, you can cap their liability but not their salary? Interesting..

On Obama's plan, its one of those either you're against it or for it. If you're paying $200+ a month for medical insurance I don't see why anyone in that situation would be against reform. As I stated before, other countries rising economically have a universal plan and the healthcare industry is flourishing in those countries. All I can say is I support the universal plan that benefits those who have a harder time affording coverage rather than the current plan where people like myself can afford coverage but those that have lower wages and a larger family cannot.

Have you ever known someone that had to use another countries "universal(socialized)" health plan. I have family that lives in Ireland they have this kind of system. One of my in laws has had polio since she was a child and since this system has been started she can no longer recieve the treatment she is supposed to get to maintain a semi-normal life in the assisted living facility that she lives in. they now have deemed her to have lived far past her expected life span and have taken away 95 percent of her meds... all except her pain meds. I also had an uncle who had a hernia that needed surgery but because he wasn't a laborer and he worked in an office he was forced to wait nine months to recieve the surgery. Is this really the kind of system we need here. personally if i am sick and i need to be treated i should be able to get the treatment i need as soon as I can.
Just my exp/op though.