Do you believe in God? Simple question

[BABY J]

"if you ever come in contact with a die hard athiest.....serve him a fine meal and simply ask if he believes there's a chef"

Dave =]

:thinking:

[punkr6]

"if you ever come in contact with a die hard athiest.....serve him a fine meal and simply ask if he believes there's a chef"

Dave =]

you lost me right about here....

[geoff]

bohdi i just got back into town. i will respond asap after work

[bodhi]

Looking forward to your response.

[geoff]

busy with the holidays will respond soon

[geoff]

bodhi, here is my response. these are a few of the things i discovered in my research. there are a couple links to vidoes and some info on studies that were done and papers by highly respected people in their own fields. i hope you look at all this with an open mind and dont just right it off as ridiculous cuz its maybe not the most popular view. God bless you.


evolution is base all on assumption, hypothesis, and theory, all of which are NOT facts. in order for the THEORY of evolution to work the universe started out with hydrogen molecules and perhaps a few helium atoms(how did these get here? ) in 1960 George Kerkut did a study and wrote a book entitled "the implications of evolution". in it he said the first two assumptions of evolution were: 1-spontanius generation must have occured. 2-spontanius generation must have occured only once. (spontanius generation: the idea that something non-living can produce something living. the entire basis of evolution) not once in the history of evolution no matter how many experiments were conducted could this be done. all attempts failed misserably. therefore evolutionist "assume" that it happened. so there goes assumption 1. assumption 2...evolution cannot happen without spontaneous generation only happening once because all life is composed of a singular genetic code that has only minor variations between all life and because the code is so extremely complicated evolutionists are forced to concede that it could only happen once. so this is called a "one time event". which cannot be studied using the scientific method because science uses the 5 senses to study things that are universal, dependable, and reproductible. but one time events are neither dependable nor universal and by definition cant be reproduced. and so this once time event of spontaneous generation are not capable of expiramental verification.

a well known australian molecular biologist and evolutionist Dr. Michael Denton wrote a book in 1985 entitled "evolution: a theory in crisis" in the book he admits that no one has ever documented any evidence for the supposed evolutionary "chain of life" leading from one type of creature to another. He wrote, " the concept of the continuity of nature has existed in the mind of man, never in the facts of nature." (p.353) then 13 years later in 1998 he stated, " Whether one accepts or rejects the design hypothesis...there is no avoiding the conclusion that the world looks as if it had been tailored for life; it appears to have been designed. All reality appears to be a vast, coherent, teleological whole with life and mankind as its purpose and goal."

the new accepted theory now that evolution is fading out is " intelligent design". they say that everything was designed but they dont know by who. science is getting closer and closer every decade to proving God. as it sits now. there is no physical evidence of God because how do you prove a superior being that is timeless and infinite? its gonna come down to what the bible says:

"God has given him a name which is above every name – that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…" Philippians 2:9-11

"I watched as He opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" rev.6:12-17


Cornelius Tacitus,Flavius Josephus,Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, and Lucian. there are also numerous writings from jewish historians and philosophers that wrote about Jesus the man and the miracles He did but from a non believer point. there is no arguing that a man named Jesus was born and started a ministry and performed great things and preached and was crucified and that christianity was founded by Him. its faith that He was God in flesh and the same God of the jews that christians believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl9fOrXqDXk&feature=PlayList&p=22A8E900011C695B&index=37&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq9pOWfwZ4g&feature=PlayList&p=22A8E900011C695B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1J5kX4Cubc

we are the only ones with a conscience and morals and the ability to logically think hence we are the only ones that will be judged. and if a creator created the universe, the laws, and everything else then the creator Himself is not subject to those laws. He is above them since He had the ability to create them. and i was not refering to "intelligent evolution". God spoke everything into existence. what you see around today is the result of natural selection where only the strong survived and the weak species died off. as far as why an athiest wouldnt get to heaven even tho you lived a good life...because the creator God is holy without blemish. He created us to be the same but we failed. so He gave us a list of how to live life so we can be Holy thru Him...its called the bible. The creator God also created us to worship Him. when you dont worship Him and believe Him and live your life according to His word and accept Him as the Lord of your life then you are denying Him and He will deny you. good works are nothing compared to Gods holiness. and they are not enough to get you to eternal life. if the bible was just a book on being a good human then works alone could save you. but thats not the case. we are ALL sinners and the wagers of sin is death (hell). its only through the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross and through His Holy blood that we have grace. in a time not too far away God will reveal Himself to all

[bodhi]

That whole post was pretty much about evolution.
Geoff, did you even read my shotgun shot of a post? I pretty much dismissed, and saved everyone of any future "chances" that you had at proving a point. Your links to videos were rather--boring. They didn't prove or disprove anything.

Your last paragraph was nothing more than your belief being thrown at me, again, for the 6th time. So, in conclusion, you pretty much wasted your time copy and pasting text that served no purpose as a "rebuttal" to my post.

It was fun, but I am not suprised to see nothing new come from a strong believer such as yourself.

[geoff]

nothing new? my point was to show that the accepted theories these days all have faults, holes, not complete, ect. not everything we believe to be true in this life can be seen or heard or what not. not everything we believe to be true is tangible or has physical evidence. i can not give you physical proof of God. i can tell you to look around you and use common sense. you see how delicately precise everything is from the tree that takes in Co2 and produces O2 so you can breathe to how every creature has a purpose. i can ask you if there can be a painting without a painter or a house without a builder. the evidence and lack of evidence points to something higher than us that we may never be able to fully understand.

[quickdodge®]

i can tell you to look around you and use common sense.

See, now that's an undercover insult you just slung out. You're saying that if I look at the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees and don't credit God for these things that I'm not using common sense. Not a bit fair, man.


the evidence and lack of evidence points to something higher than us that we may never be able to fully understand.

But it doesn't necessarily point to a God, either. Later, QD.

[StreetHazard]

Im starting to feel a little sorry for Geoff, it must be so frustrating to be one of just a few outspoken believers, surrounded by godless secularists that nail points home as harshly as the nails in Jesus's arms, poor fella.

[geoff]

no my friend i feel sorry for you. sorry that you dont realize what the nails in His hands did for you

[n00bsrus]

i just need proof... then i'll go from there. i just believe we all exist and i'm not asking questions as to how or why. life's too short to worry about silly shit like where we came from... i got too much other stuff going on... like finishing my truck for spring fling and southeast showdown this coming year :-)

[BABY J]

no my friend i feel sorry for you. sorry that you dont realize what the nails in His hands did for you

Please tell me what it did for me.

[geoff]

well baby j, we have had some pretty good back and forths in this section, you seem like an ok guy. you actually interested in what the nails in His hands did for you or you just want something else to mock?

[BABY J]

well baby j, we have had some pretty good back and forths in this section, you seem like an ok guy. you actually interested in what the nails in His hands did for you or you just want something else to mock?

I really want to know what it did for me.

[geoff]

well ok, the bible says that we have ALL fallen short of the glory of God and ALL have sinned. Jesus lived a perfect life, a life without giving into any temptation, He was the Lord of lords and the King of kings. He was rich yet became poor. He suffered and was beaten and broken for all to take their sins upon Him. His blood shed was the sacrifice for us for all eternity, He loved us ( His creation ) all so much that He died to make a way for us to heaven and to have a personal relationship with Him. if you ever get a chance to study His story you will see that the nails, the whipping, beatings, the spear to His ribs, none of that bothered Him. it was only when He drank the cup of all our sins, sickness, death, ect... that He said if it was at all possible, to take the cup from Him.

baby j and the others on here, we can argue forever about the origins of life and there will always be supporters of God and non supporters. one truth does remain tho. one day ALL of us will face death. what lies beyond that NO ONE knows. its all based on speculation or faith. science can give some insight to where we came from but not where we are going. do you really want to take the chance of facing an afterlife of torment and without peace? a relationship with God does not call for much. it is a life of peace, self sacrifice, helping others, living a morally sound life, and a faith based relationship with your Creator. if you seek after Jesus you will find Him. until you give God a chance you will never truly know what it means to be called His.

[bodhi]

well ok, the bible says that we have ALL fallen short of the glory of God and ALL have sinned. Jesus lived a perfect life, a life without giving into any temptation, He was the Lord of lords and the King of kings. He was rich yet became poor. He suffered and was beaten and broken for all to take their sins upon Him. His blood shed was the sacrifice for us for all eternity, He loved us ( His creation ) all so much that He died to make a way for us to heaven and to have a personal relationship with Him. if you ever get a chance to study His story you will see that the nails, the whipping, beatings, the spear to His ribs, none of that bothered Him. it was only when He drank the cup of all our sins, sickness, death, ect... that He said if it was at all possible, to take the cup from Him.


So, because it says all this in the bible--a book, then it must be true, right? Yeah, riiiight.
Geoff, please stop.



baby j and the others on here, we can argue forever about the origins of life and there will always be supporters of God and non supporters. one truth does remain tho. one day ALL of us will face death. what lies beyond that NO ONE knows. its all based on speculation or faith. science can give some insight to where we came from but not where we are going. do you really want to take the chance of facing an afterlife of torment and without peace? a relationship with God does not call for much. it is a life of peace, self sacrifice, helping others, living a morally sound life, and a faith based relationship with your Creator. if you seek after Jesus you will find Him. until you give God a chance you will never truly know what it means to be called His.


My life is peaceful, and I help others when I can. Your point?
If my soul still gets damned to be in hell for ever and ever and ever and ever... haha, then so be it. Though, I am pretty sure that nothing will happen.
Wait, I take that back... something will happen... my body will decompose.

Are you done yet? Because although you say that we can "argue" forever, the truth is that we can't. At least, you can't. babyj, me, and many others can keep the facts coming (ex. http://importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=38633870&postcount=498) you, gave us opinions and nothing more...

you gave it one hell of a shot though, and for that I give you props lol

[Kainedogg]

I believe in a higher power. Now whether that higher power might be what we refer to as nature, maybe a god, maybe 10 gods, I think it is easier to believe that a "Creator" created everything rather than the big bang theory.

I am not a religious person, but sometimes, things work out so unexpected but so perfectly that it seems liek there is someone else up there. Like there is something indeed spiritual about this world and everything beyond it.

What he said :cheers:

[BABY J]

So, because it says all this in the bible--a book, then it must be true, right? Yeah, riiiight.
Geoff, please stop.



LOL.

Christians engage in Bible study, not the study of the Bible. Why is that? Because they assume it to be true - with that said, there there is never a reason to review beyond that.:rolleyes: Shouldn’t they be willing, and even HAPPY to do this... surely it will only prove that they are correct right?? LOL. This is supposed to be an absolute.... unfallable. Christians I would imagine would RUSH to obtain knowledge about how Christianity sprang into being. It should only validate the belief if they are correct.

Too bad they are not - ;)

[BABY J]

well ok, the bible says that we have ALL fallen short of the glory of God and ALL have sinned. Jesus lived a perfect life, a life without giving into any temptation, He was the Lord of lords and the King of kings. He was rich yet became poor. He suffered and was beaten and broken for all to take their sins upon Him. His blood shed was the sacrifice for us for all eternity, He loved us ( His creation ) all so much that He died to make a way for us to heaven and to have a personal relationship with Him. if you ever get a chance to study His story you will see that the nails, the whipping, beatings, the spear to His ribs, none of that bothered Him. it was only when He drank the cup of all our sins, sickness, death, ect... that He said if it was at all possible, to take the cup from Him.


Here is where you lose me. Define SACRIFICE. Just off the top of my head I'd say it is something you GIVE UP in exchange for something else. LOL. Did he not RISE on the 3rd day??:thinking: So where is the sacrifice?? God must be an Indian giver - LOL. Maybe he realized that we aren't worth a shit anyway and His dad said "fuck it Jr... come on back to the house and let them figure it out on their own. LOL. Come on back to the fort" - LOL.

Seems to me that the entire basis of Christianity is that Christ "died for your sins"... but the punishment for sin isn't death, it's eternity in hell.

If eternity in hell is the cost of sin, who's in hell paying your toll? How can Christ be paying the price for your sins if he's up in heaven sitting by the pool drinking margaritas?:lmfao: What a mind fuck you guys are living.

Christ is the shit.

[Z U L8R]

God bless you Geoff, thank you for being a faithful vessel, good stuff man :goodjob:

Dave

[_Christian_]

evolution is base all on assumption, hypothesis, and theory, all of which are NOT facts. in order for the THEORY of evolution to work the universe started out with hydrogen molecules and perhaps a few helium atoms(how did these get here? ) in 1960 George Kerkut did a study and wrote a book entitled "the implications of evolution". in it he said the first two assumptions of evolution were: 1-spontanius generation must have occured. 2-spontanius generation must have occured only once. (spontanius generation: the idea that something non-living can produce something living. the entire basis of evolution) not once in the history of evolution no matter how many experiments were conducted could this be done. all attempts failed misserably. therefore evolutionist "assume" that it happened. so there goes assumption 1. assumption 2...evolution cannot happen without spontaneous generation only happening once because all life is composed of a singular genetic code that has only minor variations between all life and because the code is so extremely complicated evolutionists are forced to concede that it could only happen once. so this is called a "one time event". which cannot be studied using the scientific method because science uses the 5 senses to study things that are universal, dependable, and reproductible. but one time events are neither dependable nor universal and by definition cant be reproduced. and so this once time event of spontaneous generation are not capable of expiramental verification.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!! Spontaneous generation, a.k.a. abiogenesis, has nothing to evolution. Evolution does not account for the original formation of life, but is the explanation for the diversity of life. Spontaneous generation is not an assumption, if it did not happen we wouldn't be here. The contrasting views are as to whether or not life formed by natural or supernatural means. Have you ever done any research on the Miller Urey experiment?



a well known australian molecular biologist and evolutionist Dr. Michael Denton wrote a book in 1985 entitled "evolution: a theory in crisis"

ZOMG! A theory in crisis! Only 99.8% of scientists accept evolution!!


in the book he admits that no one has ever documented any evidence for the supposed evolutionary "chain of life" leading from one type of creature to another. He wrote, " the concept of the continuity of nature has existed in the mind of man, never in the facts of nature." (p.353) then 13 years later in 1998 he stated, " Whether one accepts or rejects the design hypothesis...there is no avoiding the conclusion that the world looks as if it had been tailored for life; it appears to have been designed. All reality appears to be a vast, coherent, teleological whole with life and mankind as its purpose and goal."

Are you kidding me? The fossil record is full of transitional forms.


nothing new? my point was to show that the accepted theories these days all have faults, holes, not complete, ect. not everything we believe to be true in this life can be seen or heard or what not. not everything we believe to be true is tangible or has physical evidence.
Exactly. People have faith in all sorts of superstitions and accept them as truth in the absence of evidence. Good thing science requires empirical evidence.


i can not give you physical proof of God. i can tell you to look around you and use common sense. you see how delicately precise everything is from the tree that takes in Co2 and produces O2 so you can breathe to how every creature has a purpose. i can ask you if there can be a painting without a painter or a house without a builder. the evidence and lack of evidence points to something higher than us that we may never be able to fully understand.
I think it's demeaning to the beauty of nature by suggesting that some magical sky god poofed it into existence.

No there can't be a painting without a painter or house without a builder. People don't recognize paintings or houses to be designed because of how complex they are or because of some perceived purpose, people recognize these things to be designed because they already know houses and paintings are designed. There are millions of examples of this. Plants and animals occur naturally, houses and paintings don't. If you followed your premise to it's logical conclusion that everything is designed, then what would make your example of design any more convincing than a grain of sand? No feature would denote design over any other since they are all designed.

[geoff]

eternity in hell is the second death. Jesus already paid my toll, He paid for my sins when He made Himself a perfect sacrifice and took our sins upon Him.

Bohdi im praying for you man. the truth is that we CAN always argue about it. i have STUDIED the bible, Christianitys origin, prophecy, philosophy, sociology, and all sorts of different theories out there. i cant say the same for you. you find it ridiculous to believe in a higher being yet find it plausable that the universe and everything else began from nothing because of nothing and is sustained by nothing. am i getting that right? have you ever had something go wrong in your life? if your human im sure you have. some how you came out of all that. let me ask you this, do you know or believe that you will wake up tomorrow, that you will have a job and home, that your family will be healthy....?

[geoff]

show me tangible proof of spontaneous generation, that if it never happened we would not exist. so thats it then we all happened from spontaneous generation, the endless question of how did we get here has been answered right? or is it another theory?

evolution is in crisis my friend, i dont know where your getting your numbers from. yes i do believe in design. everything has a design, i can elaborate on this more if you like. but i would like to know what your thoughts on origin and everything is...

[_Christian_]

show me tangible proof of spontaneous generation, that if it never happened we would not exist. so thats it then we all happened from spontaneous generation, the endless question of how did we get here has been answered right? or is it another theory?

evolution is in crisis my friend, i dont know where your getting your numbers from. yes i do believe in design. everything has a design, i can elaborate on this more if you like. but i would like to know what your thoughts on origin and everything is...
Did god not spontaneously generate Adam?

"Spontaneous generation", as used in the context of the previously quoted text, is really abiogenesis because it is a SINGLE event of life formation and not systematic. I don't want to get hung up on semantics, but that probably needs to be addressed as I myself used it interchangeably in my above reply.

In the beginning, there was no life on earth. At some point life formed. If life had not formed, we would not be here. Abiogenesis only accounts for the very first life form...so no, it's not the be all end all answer to our existence. It is a theory, in that it's the best scientific explanation for the event. The event, formation of life, is fact. Just as germs, gravity and evolution are facts with the theories being the explanations.

[bodhi]

Bohdi im praying for you man... have you ever had something go wrong in your life? if your human im sure you have. some how you came out of all that. let me ask you this, do you know or believe that you will wake up tomorrow, that you will have a job and home, that your family will be healthy....?


I have had tons of things go wrong in my life, geo. I have been, emotionally & physically tested. I won't type down all of my problems like some emo high schooler that will get acknowledged and be given sympathy, but yeah man, I have been through some shit.
You have your belief to help you through your life--and that's good.
I on the other hand do not, and am fine with that. I am not seeking "God's" acceptance nor do I want it.

Yes, I believe that I will wake up tomorrow because I am healthy, and because I also know that there is no asteroid heading our way at this very moment (I would hope nasa would give us a warning lol yea right, like they'd tell us)--so, we're safe... for now. And yes, I believe that I will have my job tomorrow because the business is doing fantastic atm, and there's no way that I would be let go.
And finally, yes, I do believe that my family will be healthy tomorrow--how? Simple. Because they're all perfectly fine - I was with some of 'em this afternoon.

I mean, honestly, why would I think otherwise?
If something godly were to happen tomorrow I wouldn't think that the lord and savior or some god hero had anything to do with it.
Shit, I'd probably think that aliens or our government were behind whatever event was taking place.

[geoff]

christian- your theory of abiogenesis is on the same level of mine as God being the creator. my idea of it is that God was the cause, yours is different.

to bohdi- you believe all these things just as strongly as my belief in God. the point is that you do not know for a fact if your world is rock solid right now. God forbid anything bad happen but you know it just as well as i do that anything is possible.

[BABY J]

Here is where you lose me. Define SACRIFICE. Just off the top of my head I'd say it is something you GIVE UP in exchange for something else. LOL. Did he not RISE on the 3rd day??:thinking: So where is the sacrifice?? God must be an Indian giver - LOL. Maybe he realized that we aren't worth a shit anyway and His dad said "fuck it Jr... come on back to the house and let them figure it out on their own. LOL. Come on back to the fort" - LOL.

Seems to me that the entire basis of Christianity is that Christ "died for your sins"... but the punishment for sin isn't death, it's eternity in hell.

If eternity in hell is the cost of sin, who's in hell paying your toll? How can Christ be paying the price for your sins if he's up in heaven sitting by the pool drinking margaritas?:lmfao: What a mind fuck you guys are living.

Christ is the shit.

This

[geoff]

the story in the bible goes like this. Christ suffered the cross and died for our sins. We as sinners were saved because He drank a cup that took on all of our sins, pain,sickness, and death. when He died He sacrificed His perfect life for non perfect people. in the old testament the people would bring sacrifices of animals once a year to the high priest who would then shed its blood on an alter and pray for that families sins. God would accept the sacrifice and then push back their sins for a year. people could not live up to the LAW so God gave us an easier way out. He came as Jesus and lived a sinless life. He was our high priest and provided His own body as the sacrifice. when He was in the grave for those two days He preached to the ones who died before Him in Sheoll( waiting place ) and took the keys to death and hell so only HE could judge. HE rose agian on the third day because the grave couldnt hold Him. He then went to heaven to prepare a place for His people and to come again to judge the world.

this video explains who and what my God is.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6wL1IvMuWo

[BABY J]

the story in the bible goes like this. Christ suffered the cross and died for our sins. We as sinners were saved because He drank a cup that took on all of our sins, pain,sickness, and death. when He died He sacrificed His perfect life for non perfect people. in the old testament the people would bring sacrifices of animals once a year to the high priest who would then shed its blood on an alter and pray for that families sins. God would accept the sacrifice and then push back their sins for a year. people could not live up to the LAW so God gave us an easier way out. He came as Jesus and lived a sinless life. He was our high priest and provided His own body as the sacrifice. when He was in the grave for those two days He preached to the ones who died before Him in Sheoll( waiting place ) and took the keys to death and hell so only HE could judge. HE rose agian on the third day because the grave couldnt hold Him. He then went to heaven to prepare a place for His people and to come again to judge the world.

this video explains who and what my God is.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6wL1IvMuWo

Did Jesus kill a child when he was younger??

[geoff]

no, there are stories written to provide a glimpse into the life of Jesus as a child. these, unlike the bible, were not inspired by the Holy Spirit. they were men of the time trying to fill in the holes

[BABY J]

^^ How can you quantify that any stories have weight over others? There are stories included in the bible by authors where some of their writings were removed. Who decides what went in and what missed the cut? And also WHY.

[geoff]

this link explains it...
http://www.essortment.com/all/biblechristiani_rfie.htm

[quickdodge®]

Who decides what went in and what missed the cut? And also WHY.

Mel Gibson. Later, QD.

[geoff]

mel gibson?

[BABY J]

LOL

[Starrfire]

The Romans decided on the shithole book of the bible, and what went in it, better yet what did not go into it. What happened to these stories? Have you heard anything of these lost gospels? They are as real as the ones that are in the book, and even more retarded. It's like a big book of Aesop's Fables, why did some make the cut and others not? Because MEN willed it so. If I write in red highliter and call it the word of god, who can prove me wrong?

[geoff]

first of all, the bible was constantly put together over a long period of time. the romans provided the first canonized version of it. what do you think the christians and jews read from in the church before it? if you read any of these other books you will see that it is more set up like mythology than scripture. also, none of the other books could be proved or were accepted as being written by the people that it claimed.

[Starrfire]

None of the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John were written by them either, but long after they existed. This IS a concrete fact.

[geoff]

really? where did you get this concrete fact?

[Starrfire]

I have watched many, many documents about the entire bible on National Geographic, maybe the BBC. Look it up, its a good watch, especially when you are as much as a bible beater as you are.

[geoff]

national geographic? bbc? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!:lmfao: i bet you believed that whole deal about global warming too didnt you lol

[Starrfire]

You are quite closed minded my friend, half of the people who were talking were very high up the religion chain, far above your pee brained pastor in the scheme of things. Why do you think they referenced them anyways? I don't care to try to make you think the same way as me like you would like to do and brainwash me, but I would think you would like it. You might learn something, but maybe not since you know ALL history from all biblical times.

[EJ25RUN]

national geographic? bbc? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!:lmfao: i bet you believed that whole deal about global warming too didnt you lol

I bet you believe there was never an ice age either. You just take what you want and not what's really out there.

Remember, you're doing this cause you obviously failed in science.


mel gibson?

He is the Christian God.

[Ran]

yes i believe in a god/superior being but i dont believe on religions and what they stand for.:goodjob:

[JEY$JDM]

Yes I do.

[thesammy]

I think it's kinda hard not to.

There are so many intricate things about the world we live in and the things in it (along with the universe as well) that I think they had to be created by someone.

[geoff]

hey sammy i see your kinda on the same page as i used to be on. if you have any questions about christianity or about Jesus then i would love to help. pm me any time you wish. God bless you

[bonezMTA]

I think it's kinda hard not to.

There are so many intricate things about the world we live in and the things in it (along with the universe as well) that I think they had to be created by someone.


Finally, someone who has thought about life. i thought i was the only one. everynight i lay in bed with my pitbull and i just thank God for this beautiful world and for a beautiful mom who came from another country to find a better life. She probably isn't living the life she wanted but she is living the life she can have. When you think about life, everything just fits in place and goes together. And i thank "HIM" for that.

[BABY J]

^^

Saying that we had to have been created based on the stupifying statistical chance that we evolved the way we did is a simple logical fallacy. You can't look at a chain of events, after that chain of events has occurred, and determine whether or not it was possible based on the statistical probability of repeating it.

As an example, let's say you roll a set of dice 10 times. Your result is 10,2,5,6,6,4,9,11,2,8. You don't question the probability that you just randomly rolled that sequence...because you DID. The only thing you can do is calculate the probability of recreating the result....which, is pretty much statistically impossible.

Logic would dictate that we evolved the way we did because of our environmental conditions, those conditions weren't necessarily created specifically for us to evolve in a specific manner. Who's to say if the earth were 10* colder, we wouldn't simply have evolved with a lower required body temperature?

Use your head "God" (lol) put it up there for a reason.

[bu villain]

^^ you have no idea how many times I've tried explaining that reasoning to people. So many people just don't get it or maybe don't want to.

[geoff]

adaptation is what your describing baby j. the odds of the world and every creature being the way they are with intracate systems is like a 1:10000000000000000000 chance. the odds of God creating everything the way it is 1:2 hmmmmmmmmmmm and we as believers have no logic?

[BABY J]

That statement proves that you don't know what the fuck I just said - LOL.

[geoff]

make some sense bro lol.

[Starrfire]

^^^making sense to you would be some strange sick twist of my logic. To tell someone that thinks differently that their logic is wrong based upon a book you read with no outside proof would be nuts right...just like scientologists. Now they are nuts, but at least they don't kill people.

[TheChosenOne]

It said I already voted, but just in case you didnt get my tally, I'm on the non-believers side. :D

[quickdodge®]

adaptation is what your describing baby j. the odds of the world and every creature being the way they are with intracate systems is like a 1:10000000000000000000 chance. the odds of God creating everything the way it is 1:2 hmmmmmmmmmmm and we as believers have no logic?

Who are you to determine what the odds are? A bookie of life? And it's funny how you put your FAITH into a better odds on situation there. What are the odds that God doesn't even exist? You won't answer that realistically because your FAITH won't let you. Not because you don't really know. Later, QD.

[geoff]

the odds that my God dont exist is 1:2, either He does or He doesnt. my faith leads me to believe that He does exist. what are the odds that everything we see here is chance? i believe its alot more

[EJ25RUN]

the odds that my God dont exist is 1:2, either He does or He doesnt. my faith leads me to believe that He does exist. what are the odds that everything we see here is chance? i believe its alot more

With your logic, i guess there is a 1:2 chance i am your god.

Either i am, or I'm not.


Good logic. :rolleyes:

[quickdodge®]

what are the odds that everything we see here is chance? i believe its alot more

Key word in bold. As usual, nothing factual or substantial. And in that case, since there is no final proof that God did this or that it just happened another way...

...the odds are pretty much even. Not greater for God or greater for natural. Later, QD.

[bu villain]

adaptation is what your describing baby j. the odds of the world and every creature being the way they are with intracate systems is like a 1:10000000000000000000 chance. the odds of God creating everything the way it is 1:2 hmmmmmmmmmmm and we as believers have no logic?

I really hope this is a joke.


With your logic, i guess there is a 1:2 chance i am your god.

Either i am, or I'm not.


Good logic. :rolleyes:

News flash!!! All Yes or No questions are now equally likely to be yes or no. Am I hungry? I dunno, I guess I could flip a coin and find out.

[BABY J]

LOL @ Geoff. He's like a mascot - I like him. :) Seems to be a nice enough guy - lol.

[geoff]

thanks baby j. just trying to point out that the notion of God is no more ridiculous than believing everything was by chance

[bu villain]

Just to let you know Geoff, most atheists don't believe things just happened by chance. It seems you are misinformed about what atheism entails. Atheism is not a religion so it doesn't answer any questions other than "Is there a God?". It doesn't say how the universe was created, how people should live their lives, or anything of that sort.

[geoff]

i fully understand that. but many atheists accept the notion of evolution or the big bang or any of these other theories that never explain the beggining.

[Starrfire]

Evolution is true and happens every day. The big bang theory is a bit way too far out there for me. Its just stupid to think all matter was condensed within the area of a pin point. Just as far fetched as religion to me. Truth is no one knows and that is the way I like it.

[geoff]

so starfire some sort of life after death doesnt matter to you?

[ahabion]

^^

Saying that we had to have been created based on the stupifying statistical chance that we evolved the way we did is a simple logical fallacy. You can't look at a chain of events, after that chain of events has occurred, and determine whether or not it was possible based on the statistical probability of repeating it.

As an example, let's say you roll a set of dice 10 times. Your result is 10,2,5,6,6,4,9,11,2,8. You don't question the probability that you just randomly rolled that sequence...because you DID. The only thing you can do is calculate the probability of recreating the result....which, is pretty much statistically impossible.

Logic would dictate that we evolved the way we did because of our environmental conditions, those conditions weren't necessarily created specifically for us to evolve in a specific manner. Who's to say if the earth were 10* colder, we wouldn't simply have evolved with a lower required body temperature?

Use your head "God" (lol) put it up there for a reason.

So the probabilty is against us... hrm... so why do people play the lottery? Because logic would dictate that the odds of winning is "impossible" as you put it but yet... we all know people win all the time. Just because the numbers don't quite "add up" does not mean it is statistically impossible. There is always that nth of a chance that you could win... and if you win, you win big.

[ahabion]

Evolution is true and happens every day...

False! Even by scientific standards. Evolution is theory, accepted as factual based on the empirical evidence found in biological studies.

As someone else put it on this forum, evolution is ever evolving. So to say evolution is true is actually a misnomer. Evolution is only as good as it is today until something better comes around to change the theory or to disprove it. So it is never actually true per se, because the moment something comes along that adds or takes away information, what use to be true today is no longer true tomorrow... it is now false and the new finds, data, and scientific information is thus the new accepted theory.

[StreetHazard]

Evolution is as much a "theory" as gravity is. The law of gravity is the scientific fact that bodies of mass attract each other. But there are different theories of gravity that attempt to explain how bodies of mass are attracted to each other.

In this way, gravity is also both a scientific fact and a scientific theory. Evolution is also considered as such.

Creationism is NOT a "fact" as it's claims cannot be verified by the scientific method. Evolution AND Gravity have been tested tried and true against this method. In various forms, and in every way it can. I really do not understand how this is up for debate. The debate [among scientists] centers only on the finer details of how it took place.

[StreetHazard]

i fully understand that. but many atheists accept the notion of evolution or the big bang or any of these other theories that never explain the beggining.

Christianity certainly does not, it's notions of reality are so absurd they are not worth repeating. The big bang theory is the best guess we have so far that utilize objective reasoning and the scientific method and every meter or benchmark we have available that detects "bullshit" to have a better understanding of our world and universe. you don't have to accept it, but it is humanities "best guess" so far. Obviously we have observatories on this planet and in outer space, and facilities like CERN that make it their job and dedicate their lives to answer these questions, and offer things like "evidence" and "facts" to support their claims.

The men and women that engage in these sciences are heroes to us all, and their work should never be ignored. The individuals and groups that do are attempting to drag humanity back into the dark ages.

[BABY J]

So the probabilty is against us... hrm... so why do people play the lottery? Because logic would dictate that the odds of winning is "impossible" as you put it but yet... we all know people win all the time. Just because the numbers don't quite "add up" does not mean it is statistically impossible. There is always that nth of a chance that you could win... and if you win, you win big.

That was my point - LOL

[bu villain]

^ exactly. People didn't just come up with the big bang because it sounded cool. They started off with evidence. Over time more evidence was discovered and the theory was changed to be consistant with that evidence. No one says the big bang is an absolute fact but there is a great amount of evidence for it. If someday we find evidence that is contradictory to the current theory, the theory will be changed or abandoned.

Some people say there is lots of evidence for God but atheist simply don't interpret that data in the same way. I would be very interested if anyone could give evidence for a single God as apposed to multiple Gods. (No the bible isn't considered evidence to us nonbelievers)

[Starrfire]

so starfire some sort of life after death doesnt matter to you?
We'll see when I get there. There is no sense arguing about it since I don't believe in the current belief systems set in place. If there is some creator of sorts, maybe it will find that I lived a good one, or maybe not, maybe it will condemn me. Maybe there is nothing.

I'll see the way everyone else will.

[StreetHazard]

^ and hope that it will not be filled with evangelicals and born again chistians, because a terrible, endlessly boring place like that would fit my concept of hell.

[Starrfire]

^ and hope that it will not be filled with evangelicals and born again chistians, because a terrible, endlessly boring place like that would fit my concept of hell.

LOL that would suck. Eternity with all the boring people.

[ahabion]

Evolution is as much a "theory" as gravity is. The law of gravity is the scientific fact that bodies of mass attract each other. But there are different theories of gravity that attempt to explain how bodies of mass are attracted to each other.

In this way, gravity is also both a scientific fact and a scientific theory. Evolution is also considered as such.

Creationism is NOT a "fact" as it's claims cannot be verified by the scientific method. Evolution AND Gravity have been tested tried and true against this method. In various forms, and in every way it can. I really do not understand how this is up for debate. The debate [among scientists] centers only on the finer details of how it took place.

You're comparing evolution (which is as much as a belief as any religion) and that of gravity? How absurd! That is like saying that there is a theory of oxygen in the air... *deep breath in* "Yea, I just don't know if there is oxygen in this air..." :thinking:



That was my point - LOL

Hrm... that does sound a lot like evolution doesn't it... I'd say you just made an observation of your own evidence... and the FACTS are statistically impossible. :yes:

[StreetHazard]

You're comparing evolution (which is as much as a belief as any religion) and that of gravity? How absurd! That is like saying that there is a theory of oxygen in the air... *deep breath in* "Yea, I just don't know if there is oxygen in this air..." :thinking:


The "fact of evolution" refers to the changes in the genetic material of a population of organisms over time, which are known to have occurred through scientific observations and experiments. The "theory of evolution" refers to the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the current scientific explanation of how these changes occur.

Misuse and misunderstanding of these terms have been used to construct arguments disputing the validity of the theory of evolution. The fact of evolution is beyond dispute....again. I am not sure how else to explain this to you. Go to any real school that does not teach theology as a core curriculum might be a suggestion. The FACT that you do not know this is very sad to me, it means you were not taught basic biology. Evolution is change in the genetic material of a population of organisms through successive generations and can be verified through genes and traits. Early rudimentary experiments involved the English moth, and can be proven in plant life as well (like in high school lab....). Evolution was proven to be a fact even before Darwin, because without that FACT he would have never been able to write the Origin the Species and tie it together with natural selection. The term evolution is thrown around quite commonly right next to another basic phenomena of biology called "adaptation".

What you are arguing is modern evolutionary synthesis....NOT evolution, but if you do not even understand the basic terminology OR the definitions. I am not sure how you can argue either one.

And this would be be more absurd than what? the story of Genesis? Even if evolutionary synthesis is completely off-base, and research in other areas shows that the theory could never happen, it would still be more plausible than genesis. The ENTIRE book of Genesis is a relic from a forgotten time, it is simply no longer relevant. It's version of the creation of the known universe is a fantasy, and you cannot honestly expect anyone to accept it as truth. Science and education have put these silly notions to rest, it is just about time for the rest of the world to catch up.

[ahabion]

The "fact of evolution" refers to the changes in the genetic material of a population of organisms over time, which are known to have occurred through scientific observations and experiments. The "theory of evolution" refers to the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the current scientific explanation of how these changes occur.

Misuse and misunderstanding of these terms have been used to construct arguments disputing the validity of the theory of evolution. The fact of evolution is beyond dispute....again. I am not sure how else to explain this to you. Go to any real school that does not teach theology as a core curriculum might be a suggestion. The FACT that you do not know this is very sad to me, it means you were not taught basic biology. Evolution is change in the genetic material of a population of organisms through successive generations and can be verified through genes and traits. Early rudimentary experiments involved the English moth, and can be proven in plant life as well (like in high school lab....). Evolution was proven to be a fact even before Darwin, because without that FACT he would have never been able to write the Origin the Species and tie it together with natural selection. The term evolution is thrown around quite commonly right next to another basic phenomena of biology called "adaptation".

What you are arguing is modern evolutionary synthesis....NOT evolution, but if you do not even understand the basic terminology OR the definitions. I am not sure how you can argue either one.



It is comedic that your assumption of what I know and don't know and then insulting my intelligence is your best representation of what evolution has to offer. It is also amusing that you speak of evolution like geoff speaks of his religion. Comparing the both of you can be seen as completely opposite poles of the same stick; both trying be the one who will be right and screaming, "Look at my evidence!"

Any real school? :lmfao:I don't know about you, but all my science classes were mandatory... and you can have science and education as your foundation in life... good for you. It really is a good starting point in living life... but I'll take wisdom and insight over science and education any day and in any lifetime. :yes:



And this would be be more absurd than what? the story of Genesis? Even if evolutionary synthesis is completely off-base, and research in other areas shows that the theory could never happen, it would still be more plausible than genesis. The ENTIRE book of Genesis is a relic from a forgotten time, it is simply no longer relevant. It's version of the creation of the known universe is a fantasy, and you cannot honestly expect anyone to accept it as truth. Science and education have put these silly notions to rest, it is just about time for the rest of the world to catch up.

Sure if you want to think of it that way but you don't seem quite so absolutely sure in your belief in evolution anymore... still be more plausible... basically what you're saying is... it would make more sense... So even if evolution was completely wrong... you would still believe in evolution because... it would just make more sense... hrm.. intersting observation.

[StreetHazard]

Again for the 3rd time....for you and everyone else on this board, Christians, Satanists, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics and everything in between alike. the term "Evolution" is not the same as "Evolutionary Synthesis" coined by the man Julian Huxley in his book (Evolution: The Modern Synthesis). For the avoidance of confusion and for the sake of any arguments on this page or any other conversation elsewhere. The scientific explanation of "how" life evolved on this planet should be termed as such. It has been (shortened) to just "Evolution" due to the idea's (and title) put forth in Julian Huxley's book, but they are not the same.

Yes I accept Evolutionary Synthesis as the most plausible explanation on "how" life evolved on this planet (so far) in the same way every rational human being has, and "working" biologists have as well according to the National Academy of Science (http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6024&page=28). I would take their opinion over yours regarding these matters, whose members serve pro bono as advisers to the nation on science, engineering, and medicine. I will quote a chapter conclusion in that press release here.

"Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science. These claims subordinate observed data to statements based on authority, revelation, or religious belief. Documentation offered in support of these claims is typically limited to the special publications of their advocates. These publications do not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or modification in the light of new knowledge."

There will never be wisdom or knowledge in the unknowable. Science does not hinge around belief, it does not even fit a definition of philosophy, it's pursuits are finding truth which shapes our perception of reality.

Exactly what wisdom and insight have you learned (besides what I have just taught you), when pursuing these outdated texts from an ancient culture that was originally written in a language you most likely do not understand? And what makes you think the religion you follow is the sole means to attain it? Humans do gain understanding in many other ways, such as through literature, the arts, philosophical reflection, and religious experience (forgive my political correctness), and I will concede there is certainly some wisdom to impart from the teachings of the character Jesus Christ...If he even existed at all. His birth as depicted is an impossibility, his life undocumented as well as his death outside of the new testament, a cowardly suicide with dreams of martyrdom and an unknowable payoff in the afterlife as much as any Islamic extremist. But his teachings are commendable in his humanitarian efforts. But it's just a shame his imagined father is such a fucking asshole.


If you want to argue with someone about evolution or evolutionary synthesis , don't argue with me...argue with the scientists that reviewed and agreed with it's conclusions.




John Baldeschwieler

J. Stanley Johnson

Professor and Professor of Chemistry

Division of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering

California Institute of Technology

Pasadena, California

John E. Dowling

Maria Moors

Cabot Professor of Natural Science

The Biological Laboratories

Harvard University

Cambridge, Massachusetts

Marye Anne Fox

Chancellor

North Carolina State University

Raleigh, North Carolina

Wilford Gardner

Dean Emeritus

College of Natural Resources

University of California at Berkeley

Berkeley, California

Timothy Goldsmith

Professor of Biology

Department of Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology

Yale University

New Haven, Connecticut

Avram Goldstein

Professor of Pharmacology, Emeritus

Stanford University

Stanford, California

Ursula Goodenough

Professor Department of Biology

Washington University

Saint Louis, Missouri

Robert Griffiths

Professor of Physics Carnegie

Mellon University

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Norman Horowitz

Professor Emeritus

Division of Biology

California Institute of Technology

Pasadena, California

Susan Kidwell

Professor

Department of Geophysical Sciences

University of Chicago

Chicago, Illinois

David Pilbeam

Henry Ford II

Professor of Social Sciences

Peabody Museum

Harvard University

Cambridge, Massachusetts

Luis Sequeira

J.C. Walker Professor Emeritus

Department of Plant Pathology

University of Wisconsin

Madison, Wisconsin

Phillip Tobias

Professor Emeritus

Department of Anatomical Sciences

University of Witwatersrand

Medical School

Johannesburg, Republic of South Africa

And other anonymous reviews.

While the individuals listed above have provided many constructive comments and suggestions, responsibility for the final content of this report rests solely with the authoring committee and the National Academy of Sciences.


Council of the National Academy of Sciences

Bruce Alberts

President

National Academy of Sciences

Washington, DC

Mary Ellen Avery

Professor of Pediatrics

Harvard Medical School

Boston, Massachusetts

Lewis M. Branscomb

Professor Emeritus

John E Kennedy School of Government

Harvard University

Cambridge, Massachusetts

Ralph J. Cicerone

Chancellor

University of California, Irvine

Irvine, California

Marye Anne Fox

Chancellor

North Carolina State University

Raleigh, North Carolina

Ralph E. Gomory

President

Alfred P. Sloan

Foundation

New York, New York

Ronald L. Graham

Chief Scientist

AT&T Labs

Florham Park, New Jersey

Jack Halpern

Louis Block Distinguished Professor Emeritus

Department of Chemistry

The University of Chicago

Chicago, Illinois

David M. Kipnis

Distinguished University Professor

Washington University School of Medicine

Saint Louis, Missouri

Daniel E. Koshland Jr.

Professor in the Graduate School

Department of Molecular and Cellular

Biology University of California, Berkeley

Berkeley, California

Peter Raven

Director

Missouri Botanical Garden

Saint Louis, Missouri

Sherwood E Rowland

Donald Bren Research Professor of Chemistry and Earth System Science

Department of Chemistry

University of California, Irvine

Irvine, California

William J. Rutter

Chairman

Chiron Corporation

Emeryville, California

Luis Sequeira

J.C. Walker Professor Emeritus

Department of Plant Pathology

University of Wisconsin

Madison, Wisconsin

Carla J. Shatz

Investigator

Howard Hughes Medical Institute

Professor

Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology

University of California, Berkeley

Berkeley, California

Jean D. Wilson

Charles Cameron Sprague Distinguished

Chair in Biomedical Science

University of Texas Southwestern

Medical Center

Dallas, Texas

Robert H. Wurtz

Chief

Laboratory of Sensorimotor Research

National Institutes of Health

Bethesda, Maryland

[geoff]

buvillian- there is no scientific proof or fact that there is one God or any God. there are theories though of why there would only be one creative being or entity that would be known as God. if your interested i could elaborate on the theory, since there is no tangible proof of a creator.

i find it interesting to say the least that you streethazard put a list about as long as my forearm of names that support or argue the THEORY of evolutionary synthesis. 50 years ago that list would of been full of different names supporting a different THEORY of evolution. as far as that goes my point is this, ANY form of evolution is still just a THEORY NOT FACT and along with what ahabion is saying will always change or be tweeked to match what new finds are made.

definition of SCIENTIFIC FACT: any observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true; any scientific observation that has not been refuted

Example: The structure of a cell membrane is considered a scientific fact.

so in that sense the idea of ANY form of evolution is not scientific fact but theory because it will always be refuted due to a new observation or finding. so in all reality your accepted theories of the big bang and evolution are no more factual or truth than my own accepted theory of God. your trust and faith is in men that dedicate their lives to science whereas my faith and trust is in Jesus, His apostles, and my bible.

[StreetHazard]

buvillian- there is no scientific proof or fact that there is one God or any God. there are theories though of why there would only be one creative being or entity that would be known as God. if your interested i could elaborate on the theory, since there is no tangible proof of a creator.

i find it interesting to say the least that you streethazard put a list about as long as my forearm of names that support or argue the THEORY of evolutionary synthesis. 50 years ago that list would of been full of different names supporting a different THEORY of evolution. as far as that goes my point is this, ANY form of evolution is still just a THEORY NOT FACT and along with what ahabion is saying will always change or be tweeked to match what new finds are made.

definition of SCIENTIFIC FACT: any observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true; any scientific observation that has not been refuted

Example: The structure of a cell membrane is considered a scientific fact.

so in that sense the idea of ANY form of evolution is not scientific fact but theory because it will always be refuted due to a new observation or finding. so in all reality your accepted theories of the big bang and evolution are no more factual or truth than my own accepted theory of God. your trust and faith is in men that dedicate their lives to science whereas my faith and trust is in Jesus, His apostles, and my bible.

Can you prove your theory of god in a court of law or utilizing the scientific method? I am sure the world would like to read it, and myself included, preferably written in "layman's terms" so to speak to avoid confusion.

again...for the 2nd time, you are almost as bad as (Ahabion)

I will quote a chapter conclusion in that press release here.

"Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science. These claims subordinate observed data to statements based on authority, revelation, or religious belief. Documentation offered in support of these claims is typically limited to the special publications of their advocates. These publications do not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or modification in the light of new knowledge."

If the National Academy of Science found your data to be factually TRUE then they would have to revise their stance and theory, so far this has not happened. But I would very much like to see your theory and if you feel that it is iron clad you can email or call this man.

Jay Labov
Senior Advisor for Education and Communications
The National Academies

202-334-1458

[email protected]


Please do not disappoint me Geoff, here is your chance to shine and show the world the glory of God and prove that (it) is the sole mover of the universe. It would be so cool to be one of the 1st people to see it publicly!

[geoff]

ok let me ask you this. there have been numerous accounts of miraculous medical breakthroughs and unexplainable healings. how does your scientific method react to these? how does your scientific method explain a 90 year old woman getting pregnant, a 4 year old boy having cancer but it dissapearing even before kemo, or countless other miracles. my point is that science only goes so far....then comes God. not that science and God cant coexist.

[bu villain]

buvillian- there is no scientific proof or fact that there is one God or any God. there are theories though of why there would only be one creative being or entity that would be known as God. if your interested i could elaborate on the theory, since there is no tangible proof of a creator.

Not necessary, I completely agree with this. You just summed up why I am an atheist. In reality, atheists don't believe "it's impossible for a God to exist", we believe "there is not enough convincing evidence for a God so until there is, we see no reason to believe God exists."

[StreetHazard]

ok let me ask you this. there have been numerous accounts of miraculous medical breakthroughs and unexplainable healings. how does your scientific method react to these? how does your scientific method explain a 90 year old woman getting pregnant, a 4 year old boy having cancer but it dissapearing even before kemo, or countless other miracles. my point is that science only goes so far....then comes God. not that science and God cant coexist.

I hate to do this but I will let these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJxCFa8YmbQ&feature=related) answer all of this for me because your question is almost identical. Sound quality is not that good but it saves me time that I have already invested to much of on this topic, that in my mind is completely put to rest.

And like those guys in the video are dealing with, you or anyone else has yet to offer prove of the existence of god. The only thing you offer is more questions that science is giving you answers for, but you are choosing to ignore.

[geoff]

yeah you should hate to do that because that didnt answer my question. i asked you how can and if the scientific method can be used to explain miracles of healing? please put the scientific method to this...

my grandmother when she was 35 years old had a hole in a valve in her heart. she had multiple x-rays and tests done and all the conclusions were the same. she would need surgery. she didnt have the insurance or money to get the operation done and for a long time until she was 46 suffered many medical problems. at the age of 46 and many years of pain she stopped having problems after many years of faith and prayer. she finally goes back into the doctors office and gets more x-rays done and the doctors are astonished at what they found. they asked her if she had gone with heart surgery and she said no why? there was scar tissue built up where the hole in her valve used to be yet she had no scar on her chest. she told them about the prayer she had recieved over the years and the doctors put down on the report that, beyond medical understanding floare vancica was healed. she still has the report.

so please apply your logic here and scientific method to explain how there was scar tissue as with surgery on her valve yet no knife was ever put to her. is this a case of something that just happens? please explain

[StreetHazard]

yeah you should hate to do that because that didnt answer my question. i asked you how can and if the scientific method can be used to explain miracles of healing? please put the scientific method to this...

my grandmother when she was 35 years old had a hole in a valve in her heart. she had multiple x-rays and tests done and all the conclusions were the same. she would need surgery. she didnt have the insurance or money to get the operation done and for a long time until she was 46 suffered many medical problems. at the age of 46 and many years of pain she stopped having problems after many years of faith and prayer. she finally goes back into the doctors office and gets more x-rays done and the doctors are astonished at what they found. they asked her if she had gone with heart surgery and she said no why? there was scar tissue built up where the hole in her valve used to be yet she had no scar on her chest. she told them about the prayer she had recieved over the years and the doctors put down on the report that, beyond medical understanding floare vancica was healed. she still has the report.

so please apply your logic here and scientific method to explain how there was scar tissue as with surgery on her valve yet no knife was ever put to her. is this a case of something that just happens? please explain


Is this your evidence that god exists? and we can email this to the Academy?

Let me ask you a question before I invest anymore of my time with you. Are you open to possibility that god does NOT exist?

[geoff]

its not my evidence that God exists, i asked you a very simple question, can your acceptance of scientific method or theory explain what happened to my grandmother?

you ask any doctor if they have ever seen or experienced something that no book or doctor or scientist can explain and they will say yes. that was my point.

to answerer your question, am i open to the possibility that God does not exist, at times yes. i am human and like anyone with faith i have doubts at times and i question, but 99% of the time i believe my God exists. im still growing in my relationship with God and ever learning.

[5speed]

This thread is just repeating itself over and over. I def understand both points of views but I am with Geoff on this one. We cant prove everything, we are only human

[StreetHazard]

its not my evidence that God exists, i asked you a very simple question, can your acceptance of scientific method or theory explain what happened to my grandmother?

you ask any doctor if they have ever seen or experienced something that no book or doctor or scientist can explain and they will say yes. that was my point.

to answerer your question, am i open to the possibility that God does not exist, at times yes. i am human and like anyone with faith i have doubts at times and i question, but 99% of the time i believe my God exists. im still growing in my relationship with God and ever learning.


This thread is just repeating itself over and over. I def understand both points of views but I am with Geoff on this one. We cant prove everything, we are only human


and hopefully it will end.


The answer rests solely on your acceptance and belief that "god" or a supernatural entity is interacting with our lives and our universe.

If you are open to the possibility that it is not true, then you could no longer claim being a christian, you have crossed over to being agnostic. If you deny the existence of god completely then you are...that's right, an atheist. I "believe" there is also a point past this view in which you are so secure in your non-belief, and you grow tired of the intellectualism and political-correctness of Atheism you begin to project your non-belief onto others in the same way religious types do and actually lead them astray from their belief! I would say it's called Satanism, but only using the name to make a mockery of Abrahamic religion and to identify yourself as their enemy of "faith".

That is why it is an important question, it does not matter what answer I give because it all hinges on your ability to not believe. It would be alright if you chose not to though, you would not be the first christian I have personally baptized in the smokey hellfire of non-belief. There is a lot of freedom to had in your life after your have shed the weight of all that guilt, phony piety, righteousness and virtue. But what I like most about it is the hours, I don't believe 24 hours a day and 7 days a week and I don't carry a single shred of guilt I feel I should apologize for, to anyone or anything.

now excuse me but there is more sinning to do.

[5speed]

and hopefully it will end.


The answer rests solely on your acceptance and belief that "god" or a supernatural entity is interacting with our lives and our universe.

If you are open to the possibility that it is not true, then you could no longer claim being a christian, you have crossed over to being agnostic. If you deny the existence of god completely then you are...that's right, an atheist. I "believe" there is also a point past this view in which you are so secure in your non-belief, and you grow tired of the political-correctness of Atheism you begin to project your non-belief onto others in the same way religious types do and actually lead them astray from their belief! I would say it's called Satanism, but only using the name to make a mockery of Abrahamic religion and to identify yourself as their enemy of "faith".

That is why it is an important question, it does not matter what answer I give because it all hinges on your ability to not believe. It would be alright if you chose not to though, you would not be the first christian I have baptized in the smokey hellfire of non-belief. There is a lot of freedom to had in your personal life after your have shed the weight of all that phony piety and righteousness. But what I like most about it is the hours, I don't believe 24 hours a day and 7 days a week and I don't carry a single shred of guilt I feel I should apologize for, to anyone or anything.

now excuse me but there is more sinning to do.
its funny bc everything I believe about morality and things that are considered sin is what I always have believed anyways with or without religion.

[StreetHazard]

its funny bc everything I believe about morality and things that are considered sin is what I always have believed anyways with or without religion.

That is because your morality is shaped by your culture, culture in many ways is defined by it's religious views which then impact the society. if you were in Iran you would think it was alright to stone a woman to death because she cheated on her husband. With this logic, in America you must also think a homosexual act is morally wrong and deny those that engage in the practice basic legal civil rights of marriage.

I could fuck anyone I wanted. Male, female outside of my race or creed, married or unmarried, and with a different religion or culture as well. I could just walk into a room and and fuck anyone that was willing to have me....Ahhhhhh freedom. It is left to me to define my own morality.

[5speed]

haha yea I hear ya. I dont think being gay is morally wrong. Basically if its not hurting anyone or doing harm or taking away then I am fine with it

[StreetHazard]

haha yea I hear ya. I dont think being gay is morally wrong. Basically if its not hurting anyone or doing harm or taking away then I am fine with it

you got it! :goodjob: hold on to that philosophy and never give it up.

[geoff]

well my friend this is one christian you wont be baptizing into the hellfire of non-belief. i have doubts at times where God is in my life and feel alone sometimes, which inevitably leads to doubt in my mind. but those are very few and very brief moments. i will stick by my faith and my God and my beliefs and not hell nor high water will change that about me. i went 19 years under a veil of smoke believing what others told me was right and that science was our god, the past 2.5 years of my life as a follower of Christ have been filled with peace, understanding, wisdom, knowledge, and love that surpass all understanding. you stick to your faith in nothing but yourself my friend and i will stick to faith in my God. if we run into eachother in the afterlife i will say " sup ". God bless you and keep you and i pray earnestly that one day He will shine some light in your life. God love you my friend.

[StreetHazard]

finally after 30 pages

/ end thread ;)

[geoff]

atleast between you and me my friend ;)

[ahabion]

Again for the 3rd time....for you and everyone else on this board, Christians, Satanists, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics and everything in between alike. the term "Evolution" is not the same as "Evolutionary Synthesis" coined by the man Julian Huxley in his book (Evolution: The Modern Synthesis). For the avoidance of confusion and for the sake of any arguments on this page or any other conversation elsewhere. The scientific explanation of "how" life evolved on this planet should be termed as such. It has been (shortened) to just "Evolution" due to the idea's (and title) put forth in Julian Huxley's book, but they are not the same.

Yes I accept Evolutionary Synthesis as the most plausible explanation on "how" life evolved on this planet (so far) in the same way every rational human being has, and "working" biologists have as well according to the National Academy of Science (http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6024&page=28). I would take their opinion over yours regarding these matters, whose members serve pro bono as advisers to the nation on science, engineering, and medicine. I will quote a chapter conclusion in that press release here.

"Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science. These claims subordinate observed data to statements based on authority, revelation, or religious belief. Documentation offered in support of these claims is typically limited to the special publications of their advocates. These publications do not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or modification in the light of new knowledge."




If you want to argue with someone about evolution or evolutionary synthesis , don't argue with me...argue with the scientists that reviewed and agreed with it's conclusions.




John Baldeschwieler

J. Stanley Johnson

Professor and Professor of Chemistry

Division of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering

California Institute of Technology

Pasadena, California

John E. Dowling

Maria Moors

Cabot Professor of Natural Science

The Biological Laboratories

Harvard University

Cambridge, Massachusetts

Marye Anne Fox

Chancellor

North Carolina State University

Raleigh, North Carolina

Wilford Gardner

Dean Emeritus

College of Natural Resources

University of California at Berkeley

Berkeley, California

Timothy Goldsmith

Professor of Biology

Department of Molecular, Cellular, and Developmental Biology

Yale University

New Haven, Connecticut

Avram Goldstein

Professor of Pharmacology, Emeritus

Stanford University

Stanford, California

Ursula Goodenough

Professor Department of Biology

Washington University

Saint Louis, Missouri

Robert Griffiths

Professor of Physics Carnegie

Mellon University

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Norman Horowitz

Professor Emeritus

Division of Biology

California Institute of Technology

Pasadena, California

Susan Kidwell

Professor

Department of Geophysical Sciences

University of Chicago

Chicago, Illinois

David Pilbeam

Henry Ford II

Professor of Social Sciences

Peabody Museum

Harvard University

Cambridge, Massachusetts

Luis Sequeira

J.C. Walker Professor Emeritus

Department of Plant Pathology

University of Wisconsin

Madison, Wisconsin

Phillip Tobias

Professor Emeritus

Department of Anatomical Sciences

University of Witwatersrand

Medical School

Johannesburg, Republic of South Africa

And other anonymous reviews.

While the individuals listed above have provided many constructive comments and suggestions, responsibility for the final content of this report rests solely with the authoring committee and the National Academy of Sciences.


Council of the National Academy of Sciences

Bruce Alberts

President

National Academy of Sciences

Washington, DC

Mary Ellen Avery

Professor of Pediatrics

Harvard Medical School

Boston, Massachusetts

Lewis M. Branscomb

Professor Emeritus

John E Kennedy School of Government

Harvard University

Cambridge, Massachusetts

Ralph J. Cicerone

Chancellor

University of California, Irvine

Irvine, California

Marye Anne Fox

Chancellor

North Carolina State University

Raleigh, North Carolina

Ralph E. Gomory

President

Alfred P. Sloan

Foundation

New York, New York

Ronald L. Graham

Chief Scientist

AT&T Labs

Florham Park, New Jersey

Jack Halpern

Louis Block Distinguished Professor Emeritus

Department of Chemistry

The University of Chicago

Chicago, Illinois

David M. Kipnis

Distinguished University Professor

Washington University School of Medicine

Saint Louis, Missouri

Daniel E. Koshland Jr.

Professor in the Graduate School

Department of Molecular and Cellular

Biology University of California, Berkeley

Berkeley, California

Peter Raven

Director

Missouri Botanical Garden

Saint Louis, Missouri

Sherwood E Rowland

Donald Bren Research Professor of Chemistry and Earth System Science

Department of Chemistry

University of California, Irvine

Irvine, California

William J. Rutter

Chairman

Chiron Corporation

Emeryville, California

Luis Sequeira

J.C. Walker Professor Emeritus

Department of Plant Pathology

University of Wisconsin

Madison, Wisconsin

Carla J. Shatz

Investigator

Howard Hughes Medical Institute

Professor

Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology

University of California, Berkeley

Berkeley, California

Jean D. Wilson

Charles Cameron Sprague Distinguished

Chair in Biomedical Science

University of Texas Southwestern

Medical Center

Dallas, Texas

Robert H. Wurtz

Chief

Laboratory of Sensorimotor Research

National Institutes of Health

Bethesda, Maryland


Nice Copy/Paste, I'm glad you're free thinking mind has lead you to read and believe in the things written by man. :lmfao:

And yes, I'll make the generalization of evolution because you've already summed it up oh so nicely. Much like Christianity or any other denomination is termed religion for short, to include all generalization.

And yes you're exactly right... intelligent design and creationism isn't science. This isn't an argument that it is otherwise. I am a believer in science and scientific discovery. The argument at it's core is the belief of evolution. Evolution takes as many leaps and bounds to believe as does any religion... or if you want to compare apples to apples.... evolution to global warming. Even the scientific community can't come to grips with the "evidence" that is so "conclusive" but yet many believe it and that thinking has pushed thru the populace that Earth is warming and we're all going to die in 7 years if we don't minimize our carbon footprint. Speaking on those same terms, there are many more scientist and many biologist for that matter who believe in a religion of some sorts.

To emphasize the bold above... basically stating and further verifying a previous post: Science can never be REAL truth because what is true today may be tomorrow's false... and today's false may be tomorrow's truth. OR to put it in movie terms "...there is no spoon..." -kid in The Matrix- (I swear that movie is a perfect analogy of what we Christians term: faith)



There will never be wisdom or knowledge in the unknowable. Science does not hinge around belief, it does not even fit a definition of philosophy, it's pursuits are finding truth which shapes our perception of reality.

Exactly what wisdom and insight have you learned (besides what I have just taught you), when pursuing these outdated texts from an ancient culture that was originally written in a language you most likely do not understand? And what makes you think the religion you follow is the sole means to attain it? Humans do gain understanding in many other ways, such as through literature, the arts, philosophical reflection, and religious experience (forgive my political correctness), and I will concede there is certainly some wisdom to impart from the teachings of the character Jesus Christ...If he even existed at all. His birth as depicted is an impossibility, his life undocumented as well as his death outside of the new testament, a cowardly suicide with dreams of martyrdom and an unknowable payoff in the afterlife as much as any Islamic extremist. But his teachings are commendable in his humanitarian efforts. But it's just a shame his imagined father is such a fucking asshole.

heh, the Bible is full of wisdom and insight. If you've read it, you'd discover it yourself. Especially if you read it with the intent of learning instead of trying to find the so called "flaws" that you've lead yourself to believe in. I read a biology book with the intent on learning and discovering something new I didn't know before... though I know it'd be twisting and arm and a leg to have you even pick up a Bible. And you're right, there are plenty of other places that you can experience wisdom and insight... but none like an all-knowing God has to offer.

But hey, not trying to be all spiritual and stuff... I figure based on your post, you're tired of defending evolution. It's ok. Here's to you Sir! :cheers:

[StreetHazard]

:rolleyes:

[BABY J]

heh, the Bible is full of wisdom and insight. If you've read it, you'd discover it yourself. Especially if you read it with the intent of learning instead of trying to find the so called "flaws" that you've lead yourself to believe in. I read a biology book with the intent on learning and discovering something new I didn't know before... though I know it'd be twisting and arm and a leg to have you even pick up a Bible. And you're right, there are plenty of other places that you can experience wisdom and insight... but none like an all-knowing God has to offer.



Some1 with a true desire for searching for truth or anything close to it will not approach the bible w/ the INTENT of learning anything. They will approach it with an arbitrary eye. You seem to be fairly intelligent on most days and I'm sure you'd agree.

If I were a Christian I'd LOVE for people to challenge it b/c if it rang true it'd only prove my view to be sound when they reached the same conclusion that I had reached. Asking questions means I am learning something - the people that followed Mr. Jones didn't ask enuff questions - neither did the people that followed Mr. Koresh and they paid with their lives.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence --- Christians have never been able to produce evidence or anything that resembles evidence. Jesus was no more important than any other common hero of humanity (i.e Martin Luther King, FDR, Ghandi, etc). There are ZERO 1st hand accounts of him rising from that grave --- and if there are, well... people still see Elvis too. LOL

[BABY J]

What the FUCK makes you so special that an all-knowing being will make moves on your behalf? A being that created the sun and all that we observe would not give a SHIT about your mom being cured of cancer. Nor would She give her ONLY offspring to save a substandard creation that couldn't even follow simple instructions -LOL. People are so fickle I swear - LOL.

[5speed]

Malcolm X was so much cooler than MLK, just saying...

[geoff]

you said baby j that there is no evidence of Jesus rising back from the dead, are you in agreement tho that a man named Jesus did exist and proclaim that He was the Son of God? and here is a question for you, you said that a creator that made the sun and so on and so forth wouldnt care about us, would you as a father not care about your children that you created? would you turn your back on them after they were born and let them fend for themselves? God is more than a creator, He is a Father to us all.

[sport_122]

Wow...i haven't logged in a long time...this thread is still kickin'!

[StreetHazard]

I typed something, then I realized I didn't care, then I looked at pornography

[BABY J]

you said baby j that there is no evidence of Jesus rising back from the dead, are you in agreement tho that a man named Jesus did exist and proclaim that He was the Son of God? and here is a question for you, you said that a creator that made the sun and so on and so forth wouldnt care about us, would you as a father not care about your children that you created? would you turn your back on them after they were born and let them fend for themselves? God is more than a creator, He is a Father to us all.

Are you arguing my view that there is no evidence of this?

I said what I had to say about Jesus existing. No more important than the "heros" we have today - you kno, like Evil Kneivel. LOL. The fact that Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God means nothing - he is one in a long line of people to claim such - and not ONE of the people who have claimed such has been seen again (verified) after they die on this rock. What happens on Earth is what happens IRL (LOL)... this is not Avatar or the Matrix - you die here you're dead - FOR REAL. Make this life the best that you can.

Look around - there are million od dadless kids around where the dad doesn't/didn't give a fuck about them. Why blame them... "God" is the creator of life remember?? :rolleyes: So it's his job to care for kids that are created - not "their dad". What say you to that?

God has done NOTHING for me that a father would/should do for his kids - nor has he done anything for you.

[geoff]

you speak for yourself my friend. God has done plenty for me

[BABY J]

you speak for yourself my friend. God has done plenty for me

Interesting. You weren't speaking for yourself when you said...


God is more than a creator, He is a Father to us all.

With that statement you were speaking for all people... yet you want to tell me to speak for myself only. I heart hypocrites.

[sport_122]

Are you arguing my view that there is no evidence of this?

I said what I had to say about Jesus existing. No more important than the "heros" we have today - you kno, like Evil Kneivel. LOL. The fact that Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God means nothing - he is one in a long line of people to claim such - and not ONE of the people who have claimed such has been seen again (verified) after they die on this rock. What happens on Earth is what happens IRL (LOL)... this is not Avatar or the Matrix - you die here you're dead - FOR REAL. Make this life the best that you can.

Look around - there are million od dadless kids around where the dad doesn't/didn't give a fuck about them. Why blame them... "God" is the creator of life remember?? :rolleyes: So it's his job to care for kids that are created - not "their dad". What say you to that?

God has done NOTHING for me that a father would/should do for his kids - nor has he done anything for you.


That is not necessarily the case. There are writings of eye witness accounts of Jesus being seen alive after his death. Paul wrote that there were some 500 or so people who saw Christ. Do you not think that this would have been verifiable as a claim in the early first century?

Now of course you could ignore that, but there are also other things such as the explosion in growth that happened after his death. and the actions of the disciples after his death versus after he was said to have risen.

There is a place of where I think when we look at what is out there we want to dismiss this stuff because of our desire to either be right or deny what is there, but eye witnesses in modern court cases often are the ones with the most weight. You get 25 people to testify to seeing something happen, then the jury will respond, let alone hundreds, but this has all been said. You can continue to ignore it.

But i ask this....

Why would the followers of Christ present such a powerful movement after Christ was dead unless he rose again? Christ claimed that he would, when he died they scattered in fear of what would happen, because they expected something different. When they saw him again, they were made more bold than ever before. Why would they have continued on, even to death, had they not been fully convinced that the Christ they followed did indeed rise from the dead as he said he would.

Why would so many people change their minds about Christ in the early first century, in that same region? Had his resurrection not been witnessed we can reasonably conclude from looking at other (cult) leaders in history, that his movement would have died, simply because the movement was based on the principles of the resurrection and his God hood.

If the resurrection did not occur, what are some reasonable explanations for the missing body of Christ? The Jews would have quickly produced evidence of this as soon as people spoke of Christ walking around after his death. They did not and could not. We could have expected that there would have been some sort of evidence from one of the hundreds of followers of Christ, who would have said, "no, this is not the case and christ was not seen". And he was said to have been around for 40 days which would have allowed ample opportunity for solidifying the claims.


About the dad thing, that is an emotional appeal not a logical one. First off, your children (if i recall you do have a wife and at least one kid) will never know how much you as their father have done for them. They will never know or understand the sacrifices you have made to discipline, provide for, or love them, yet they could still present the exact same statements as you. "You have done nothing for me that a father should/would do for their kid" Does that mean that you have not done your job or does that mean that something is wrong with your kids? No, it simply means that sometimes we cannot fully understand the intentions, actions, and motives of others.

My point on this is that you seem to be making arguments based on the actions of God vs the existence of God. As you have simply stated already, there are thousands of children who are fatherless, yet, not a single one of them is truly fatherless because they all come from somewhere. The fact that their fathers are dead or not acting in a certain way in their lives does not remove the fact that their fathers EXIST and ARE their fathers.

So my point is how does the actions and our understanding of why God does anything weigh in a conversation about whether or not God exists...It doesn't. Now if you want to argue the character of God, that is a different story, but existence does not mean that he is good to you or not. It simple means that he is.

[geoff]

good one sport, you took the words out of my mouth. nice to have you back brother. God bless you

[quickdodge®]

That is not necessarily the case. There are writings of eye witness accounts of Jesus being seen alive after his death. Paul wrote that there were some 500 or so people who saw Christ. Do you not think that this would have been verifiable as a claim in the early first century?

There are "eye witness" reports that Santa Claus exists, too. There are "eye witness" reports that Bigfoot exists. So what. Several people have wrote about Santa Claus. Seems verifiable enough to me, yes?



There is a place of where I think when we look at what is out there we want to dismiss this stuff because of our desire to either be right or deny what is there,

It has nothing to do with desiring to be right. It has to do with there is no factual evidence of any existence of God. A book? Right. There you go.



Why would the followers of Christ present such a powerful movement after Christ was dead unless he rose again? Christ claimed that he would, when he died they scattered in fear of what would happen, because they expected something different. When they saw him again, they were made more bold than ever before. Why would they have continued on, even to death, had they not been fully convinced that the Christ they followed did indeed rise from the dead as he said he would.

Why would so many people change their minds about Christ in the early first century, in that same region? Had his resurrection not been witnessed we can reasonably conclude from looking at other (cult) leaders in history, that his movement would have died, simply because the movement was based on the principles of the resurrection and his God hood.

Again, all this documented in the same book that gave us a man parting an actual sea. The same book that had a man build a boat big enough for a pair of every animal at the time to be saved in from a 40 day/night flood. The same book that had a man swallowed whole by a whale. I can see where all this is 100% believable.


If the resurrection did not occur, what are some reasonable explanations for the missing body of Christ?

Repeat after me....there are no such things as grave robbers. There are no such thi......



First off, your children (if i recall you do have a wife and at least one kid) will never know how much you as their father have done for them. They will never know or understand the sacrifices you have made to discipline, provide for, or love them,

You don't have children, do you? You're completely wrong on this.


[COLOR=RoyalBlue]My point on this is that you seem to be making arguments based on the actions of God vs the existence of God.

That's because all the God-people on here keep making their cases on each. People thanking God for what he has done for them is referring to actions supplied by God. People saying He exists is referring to the existence. Not sure what your "point" is.

The actual point is this: There is no factual or tangible evidence that God has placed anyone in the position that they are currently in or have ever been in. Not one. There is ONE BIG piece of evidence that shows how you (general you) have placed yourself in the position that you are in or have ever been in.

Later, QD.

[sport_122]

There are "eye witness" reports that Santa Claus exists, too. There are "eye witness" reports that Bigfoot exists. So what. Several people have wrote about Santa Claus. Seems verifiable enough to me, yes?



It has nothing to do with desiring to be right. It has to do with there is no factual evidence of any existence of God. A book? Right. There you go.



Again, all this documented in the same book that gave us a man parting an actual sea. The same book that had a man build a boat big enough for a pair of every animal at the time to be saved in from a 40 day/night flood. The same book that had a man swallowed whole by a whale. I can see where all this is 100% believable.



Repeat after me....there are no such things as grave robbers. There are no such thi......




You don't have children, do you? You're completely wrong on this.



That's because all the God-people on here keep making their cases on each. People thanking God for what he has done for them is referring to actions supplied by God. People saying He exists is referring to the existence. Not sure what your "point" is.

The actual point is this: There is no factual or tangible evidence that God has placed anyone in the position that they are currently in or have ever been in. Not one. There is ONE BIG piece of evidence that shows how you (general you) have placed yourself in the position that you are in or have ever been in.

Later, QD.
I do believe in God, and I do not believe simply because the Bible says so. I believe because I realize that our existence can only function by way of accepting some things as transcendent. Now maybe for some people the scientific approach will provide answers but the truth is it doesn't, and the Bible doesn't give all the answers to life. That said, I have just read how you didn't really make any real comments to support your disbelief. Am I to take that as you are saying that you don't believe because you "just don't believe".

We can play the rhetoric game over and over (which is why I stopped coming to this forum for so long), but the truth is that gets us nowhere. There are obviously some things that you have to apply general logic to in order for them to make sense. In your statements you choose to throw the logic out. Santa Claus (the big red suit) is historically known as a fictional character and in no way equates to Jesus. The big foot thing is something else entirely, even though Jesus was definitely a real person, but my point is, if you cannot except eye witness testimony, because according to your statements you make it seem unreliable, you cannot accept written testimony, because that somehow presupposes God's existence and that is against your stance, then how exactly do you make up your mind about anything. Where do you gather the ability to use logical reasoning to determine your answer because you have not evaluated the evidence, you threw it out before it was presented.

Do you base it off of yourself? That is impossible because all that you are is a product of your upbringing so you have been influenced by the outside as much as anyone else (and that includes us "God-people"). So tell me. Since you say there is no God? Is this something you feel inside. What is your tangible reasoning to a seemingly intangible question.

so let me see...
Scientists...they are as much a part of eyewitnesses and the people who see Santa Claus,
historical documentation is a much a part of inadmissible literature as the words written in the bible....

So the problem is that if you really want to have the conversation on a rational level (just as in court where things are argued rationally on a daily basis) the validity of my arguments must be tested thoroughly, but the argument that you make is sufficient in throwing out ALL evidence. so that leaves us in a courtroom pointing fingers at one another, and that is how illogical people make decisions....I would rather error on the side of logical inquiry that ignorant perception.

[quickdodge®]

That said, I have just read how you didn't really make any real comments to support your disbelief. Am I to take that as you are saying that you don't believe because you "just don't believe".

Where did I say I didn't believe? If you can quote the exact words where I said I do not believe, then I will give you my house, my 3 cars, my house on St. Simon's Island, my house in Tennessee and some very profitable land all for free. Guaranteed. As far as my "real comments?" I've proven myself, over and over, to be smarter than the average bear on here. I'm sure you're included in that pack. The thing is this...how about you prove, without a doubt, that God exists and I'll be a 100% believer. See it's not up to me to disprove Him. It's up to you to prove Him. There are no videos showing Him. There are no recordings of Him. There is nothing to support Him being here except a book. My "real comments" aren't really necessary as common sense should have kicked in.


(which is why I stopped coming to this forum for so long),

You can always go back out the way you came, man. You won't be missed.


There are obviously some things that you have to apply general logic to in order for them to make sense. In your statements you choose to throw the logic out.

Lolol. You're a funny dude. nd dare I say I believe you when you say you're a Christian.


you have not evaluated the evidence, you threw it out before it was presented.

I looked all over YouTube. Never saw a video featuring God. I even looked on BibleVideo.com and didn't see anything. There is no evidence. There is only faith. And faith is hardly proof.

Do you base it off of yourself? That is impossible because all that you are is a product of your upbringing so you have been influenced by the outside as much as anyone else (and that includes us "God-people"). So tell me. Since you say there is no God? Is this something you feel inside. What is your tangible reasoning to a seemingly intangible question.


Do you base it off of yourself? That is impossible because all that you are is a product of your upbringing so you have been influenced by the outside as much as anyone else (and that includes us "God-people"). So tell me. Since you say there is no God? Is this something you feel inside. What is your tangible reasoning to a seemingly intangible question.

I was homeless for about almost two years. Living on the streets of Atlanta. Not one time did I pray to God to get me out of there. I realized what I was doing and recognized what I needed to do to get myself out of there. I made the decisions based on what I knew I needed to do. I got a job and made moves to get myself under my own roof. I brought myself back from the doldrums. Not once did I ask for any help from some deity. I wasn't raised in a Christian home. I wasn't raised in a shithole home either, but we just never talked about religion. I was raised with morals and values that are becoming of a responsible, respectable person. I am a product of my upbringing. I have my parent and my grandparents to thank for who I am and where I am. Not anyone else or anything else. I certainly haven't been influenced by church people. In fact, it's quite the opposite with church folks. They repulse me. That's why I let Bible-thumpers knocking on my door inside to see a nice, fresh pentagram on my living room floor. That's why a couple of months ago when those same pushers parked their car in front of my house and I walked out there with a phone to my ear acting like I was calling the cops because of a "suspicious car" outside my home.

And again with your assumption that I say there is no God. I sure would hate to lose all my Earthly possessions to you if you find that passage. So because you try to make yourself seem smarter by wording your responses the way you do gives you room to assume something about someone you've never met? You can't knock me down, man. I'm too far up. Later, QD.

[bodhi]

hey sport122 or whatever... tackle this post... since your buddy geoff didn't have the brains to engage in a rebuttalathon (get it? like a marathon--its funny, right?) with the lights of me
not saying you're any brighter... haha, jkjk

no, really i wasn't kidding

http://importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=38633870&postcount=498

if you don't know what im talking about start reading from here http://importatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231713&page=25 or a page back

lemme know when you've got something other than the same old boring things that religious ppl bring to the table
oh, and if you've studied this in some fancy college then show me some things your professor taught you

Either way this should be interesting
geoff was about to bust out the white flag haha, getting bombed to hell by a few "dumb" folks 'round here in dis thread

[On_Her_Face]

I think I posted in here but Yes I do believe. Why? Faith. Can you take it away? Nope.

[BABY J]

QD stole my thunder. Great post...

If God is perfect, then why would he want to act at all on our behalf? If a perfect God wants to create something outside of himself, this implies to me that he is incomplete. However, human beings desperately want there to be some purpose behind the universe and they want to be apart of it. Sure enough, God "just so happens" to have created everything from nothing as part of a divine plan and that plan just so happens to revolve completely around us... LOL. Did God create us in his image or did we create God in OUR image... think about that REALLY hard. Think about the earliest humans explaining to a child while "uncle Billy died." ;)

We value faith and trust because we are finite beings. They are a direct result of our limitations. However, God is supposedly infinite and all knowing. God "just so happens" to value that which is logically impossible for him to exhibit based on the very properties ascribed to him. How convenient that "streets of Gold" is the best that he as has to offer considering that a God of his stature "gold" is nothing. How convenient that the major fear that we have (death and the uncertaintly surrounding it) God has worked it out - LOL.

We fear death, so God wants to give us eternal life. We are uncomfortable with the unknown, so God magically reveals different, but detailed, answers to specific people using some undetectable and unverifiable communication channel. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

So, yes. When one takes an a deeper and more intellectual look at the supposed actions of God, the question becomes: if a omnipotent and omniscient being being does exist, why should he appear tailor made to our wants and desires?

[geoff]

baby j- you make alot of sense with your post above^. there is only a few problems with it. you are trying to exhibit knowledge on something you yourself have never taken the time to study. i have done the same thing when it comes to all the different scientific theories out there and what not. your view of God seems to me is coming from things you have read and heard other men say but you yourself have never taken the time to investigate. so to answer your question, God is not tailor made to our wants and desires. you see God has His way of doing things and we as people try and follow that. the reason God might seem tailor made is because of all the people out there that try and fit God into their own comprehension. A creative being as you might imagine and can admit, did exist then would it be fair to say that someone or something with the capability to create everything we see would be beyond our farthest understanding and logic? YES! people try and figure God out like He is some kind of patient being studied for sleeping problems. the cold hard fact is that we have made a false image of what God is. they take the christian God and His Word and skew it and twist it to fit their own ideologies and thoughts and theories and pray for things they know are not right and when He doesnt answer it they come up with an excuse. over the past few months i have learned alot about myself and my God. He does not give us the desires of our hearts and all of our wants. He will give what He promised and anytime we try and be sneaky and selfish and pray for things that are against His ways we will always get disapointed. there are two gods in the christian faith. the god of the world= skewed idea made by men to instill their own desires that has no biblical accuracy. and the God of the bible, creation, and men= Jesus Christ, who stands for righteousness, self sacrifice, love, honesty, morality, eternity, TRUTH! you have to actually search yourself to find this God.

[quickdodge®]

the cold hard fact is that we have made a false image of what God is.

Do you know why that is? It's because the "cold hard fact" is that there is NO set image in place as to what we are to see Him as. How do you honestly know what image is false or not? All you can really say is that you don't know. You go on faith. Which is not fact.


you have to actually search yourself to find this God.

You really don't have to search. Just have that faith. Later, QD.

[geoff]

i didnt mean image as in a view of man. i meant a false perception of what God is all about. and you do have to search, which will lead you to faith in the real God, not the 30 somthin different denominations views on Him. you instead will have true faith which is your own and not what someone taught you

[quickdodge®]

i didnt mean image as in a view of man. i meant a false perception of what God is all about. and you do have to search, which will lead you to faith in the real God, not the 30 somthin different denominations views on Him. you instead will have true faith which is your own and not what someone taught you

But no one knows who the "real God" is. You think yours is. Someone else may think his/hers is. How do you really know that your perception of God isn't false You don't. And that is where I agree with you on having a faith that is all your own. Later, QD.

[geoff]

i see where your coming from. i was just trying to point out that the god of this world that most people know christians for is not the God of the Bible. ofcourse believing in a God or anything requires faith, but not blind faith. as someone with faith i should always be able to answer why i have faith in my God, and be able to defend my faith. not just say, " well i heard someone say sometime that this is the truth and this is what i gotta do." we can both agree that blind faith is stupidity and foolishness

[ahabion]

Some1 with a true desire for searching for truth or anything close to it will not approach the bible w/ the INTENT of learning anything. They will approach it with an arbitrary eye. You seem to be fairly intelligent on most days and I'm sure you'd agree.

If I were a Christian I'd LOVE for people to challenge it b/c if it rang true it'd only prove my view to be sound when they reached the same conclusion that I had reached. Asking questions means I am learning something - the people that followed Mr. Jones didn't ask enuff questions - neither did the people that followed Mr. Koresh and they paid with their lives.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence --- Christians have never been able to produce evidence or anything that resembles evidence. Jesus was no more important than any other common hero of humanity (i.e Martin Luther King, FDR, Ghandi, etc). There are ZERO 1st hand accounts of him rising from that grave --- and if there are, well... people still see Elvis too. LOL

It is already hard enough for many who call themselves Christians to even believe what they believe to be correct and absolute. Even if they thought it, do they live it, is the big question. Where Christians fail (as a people) and where the rest of society see them is that they're seen as being one of the same crowd and doing the same things everyone else does but "preach" a different thing. So they challenge the status quo never realizing that they only challenge themselves in front of the status quo. So to prove that they're right (to address the bold) only allows them to validate and vindicate themselves. Ask the tough questions and wrestle down truth.

And you are right that great claims require great evidence. Archeology provides sound evidence for events within the Bible and the same can be said of evolution as well... discover truth.

[BABY J]

http://www.munkymofo.com/images/info/1264457332194.gif

[Starrfire]

It takes a complete and total fool to believe that there is no other life in the galaxy, even sentient life. But would people have faith that such beings did not exist, of course because it would rain on their parade.

[geoff]

how would that rain on people with faiths parade? the bible make mention of alien galaxies or other life. if you look at what the bible is supposed to be( God's blueprint for man) than why would it matter to us if there is other life out there?

[Starrfire]

Sure it does...

[geoff]

why would it matter to us? sure it would be cool, what if we found other life and they came to this earth preaching Jesus? would that sway your opinion at all?

[ChnkyLao]

why would it matter to us? sure it would be cool, what if we found other life and they came to this earth preaching Jesus? would that sway your opinion at all?

that would be one of the worst things to happen ever

lol their jesus wouldn't be the same as our jesus, unless the were human looking too,

i see this resulting in a huge war because our jesus look different from their jesus, especially if they were just as intorerable as us

think about it would you accept their jesus if it was green and had 4 legs? also what are the chances of jesus having the same name? this sounds like a huge misunderstanding that will happen.

[geoff]

who is to say that other life, if there is any, would be green with 4 legs? we as humans are supremely engineered creatures to adapt to life. we have a very effecient design to live. so in all reality, if the law of nature of natural selection applies, then other life in the universe would look very similar to us. they might be more advanced with higher intellectual capabilities but other than that i highly doubt they would have thin grey bodies and huge heads and huge black eyes.

[BABY J]

Holy assumptions Batman.

[Starrfire]

who is to say that other life, if there is any, would be green with 4 legs? we as humans are supremely engineered creatures to adapt to life. we have a very effecient design to live. so in all reality, if the law of nature of natural selection applies, then other life in the universe would look very similar to us. they might be more advanced with higher intellectual capabilities but other than that i highly doubt they would have thin grey bodies and huge heads and huge black eyes.

What if they are from a huge planet, with an inheirently large gravitational pull. They would be much more bulky to deal with stress or better equiped for such a place. To think that we are the perfect being is retarded. We can barely fend off animals not even our size. We have the ability of greater thought than most animals. You must have watched a lot of old school Star Trek or something to believe that alien life would look remotely human:lmfao:

[ChnkyLao]

who is to say that other life, if there is any, would be green with 4 legs? we as humans are supremely engineered creatures to adapt to life. we have a very effecient design to live. so in all reality, if the law of nature of natural selection applies, then other life in the universe would look very similar to us. they might be more advanced with higher intellectual capabilities but other than that i highly doubt they would have thin grey bodies and huge heads and huge black eyes.

i never said aliens would be green and had 4 legs, i was never stating facts, only merely stating a scenario

i asked simply would you accept their version of jesus if it was green and had 4 legs?

[geoff]

listen God has no flesh to bind Him, He appeared to us as Jesus. He may appear to aliens as something else. BUT, if other life came here and was holding a Holy book of this God's commandments and what not and it was Jesus being preached then YES i would accept it.

[geoff]

and to starrfire, you really are funny you know that? sure gravity would change the appearance slightly and so would the closeness of the sun. so sure they could be bigger or smaller or different colors but their organ systems, nervous system, ect would be very similar. what you fail to realize is just how perfect the human body is. science is amazed at how intricate each system we have is. i was just watching the Science channel the other day and they were talking about the earth and universe and just how perfect everything was to be able to sustain life. they were talking about how earth could not sustain life if we had no moon. come on now guys, its not that hard. just actually think for a second and quit coming up with excuses or arguements cuz your a rebelious being.

[Starrfire]

The living organisms could be nitrogen based, instead of carbon based, which I could imagine making such an organism unlikely to be the same. But I digress, such a discussion is as off topic and out there as religion itself. Unknown to humans at this point in time.

[StreetHazard]

"ALL religions of a spiritual nature are inventions of man. He has created an entire system of gods with nothing more than his carnal brain. Just because he has an ego, and cannot accept it, he has to externalize it into some great spiritual device which he calls "God". God can do all the things man is forbidden to do - such as kill people, perform miracles to gratify his will, control without any apparent responsibility, etc. If man needs such a god and recognizes that god, then he is worshiping an entity that a human being invented. Therefore, HE IS WORSHIPING BY PROXY THE MAN THAT INVENTED GOD.

Is it not more sensible to worship a god that he, himself has created in accordance with his own emotional needs - one that best represents the very carnal and physical being that has the idea-power to invent a god in the first place?"

- Anton Lavey

who likes pizza?
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[jdm95civic]

Yes,there is a creator and a son his son 'our messiah' with out the man upstairs there is no reason to be here...all this 'evillution' crap is nothing but lies and trying to disprove the creation of the world by our creator....the whole evolution thing is 'blind leading blind'..my 2 cents

[.blank cd]

umm why do you believe that the sun is a ball of fire? Why do you believe in gravity? why do you believe that 1 plus 1 is 2? All of this is because someone told you. But you don't question these things, do you. Proof is just as much perception as anything else. When you learned to read you didn't ask someone to prove the alphabet works the way it does...did you?

all proof is is interpretation of something. 100 people could look at the same thing and get something different from it 100 times.

fear is not the reason to believe in God, damnation is not the reason either. Anyone who tells you that is wrong. Its not about death its about life, its not about hate its about love. you are judging the entire concept off of the misquotations and poor actions of a few who don't even represent the majority.i know the sun isnt a ball of fire, but a giant nuclear reaction. I know the laws of gravity because I can jump up and come back down here on earth. I know 1+1=2 not because someone told me, but because it can be proven. I can have one apple and someone give me another apple and I'll have two apples. Proof is not someone's perception or interpretation. If I asked 100 people what I had, 100 people would say I had two apples.

We also know the alphabet works (as we're speaking the English language) and this has nothing to do with trying to prove the existence of god. This is a straw man fallacy. Which is common when trying to prove the existence of god.

[Bacon]

I am an agnostic atheist so rock solid proof would have to present itself for me to be a believer.

[.blank cd]

Even if the Judeo-Christian god showed his existence, I still wouldn't worship him

[Bacon]

I wouldn't either but I would have to see proof of existence.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Dylan]

I know that God exists. That's all that matters to me :D

[jonbuice5591]

i DO believe in GOD and I always will

[quickdodge®]

I know that God exists. That's all that matters to me :D

You don't actually know He exists. As the person below me says:


i DO believe in GOD.....

Would be more accurate and spot on. I can never understand how someone "knows" something yet can not provide proof. As for believing, though? That's completely understandable and, well, believable (lolol). Later, QD.

[Dylan]

Well I could provide "evidence", though it isn't physical proof. It's something that only I understand and probably wouldn't make any sense at all to you or anyone else. Things that are too great to be a coincidence. There are simple significant "signs" that I see on a regular basis after he "spoke" to me. Like stated before I know there is a a higher power because my imagination is far too poor to make these types of things up and keep them consistent.

[quickdodge®]

Unless it's physical, there is no evidence. Christianity is all based on beliefs. Not facts. There is no knowing when it comes to religion. It's all in what you believe or have been taught to believe. And I don't knock anyone for their beliefs. If that's what you need, then it's all you and it's all good. Who am I to judge you, yes? And never underestimate your imagination. It's far more powerful than you think, dude. Later, QD.

[Dylan]

I can respect your response. As far as my religion goes, my experience came out of nowhere. I never believed in any God nor did I think anything could change my mind. I suppose I have a lot a faith is something now, which I don't believe will have a negative effect on me. A lot of people these days just say they believe because they are afraid of what may happen to them someday. Others just follow what they have been taught their whole lives and treat it as a lifestyle, and don't truly understand what they are talking about. I do agree that the human mind is an incredible thing. There are many things that your mind is capable of, that which most people never experience or have an opportunity to use.

[quickdodge®]

I can respect your response. As far as my religion goes, my experience came out of nowhere. I never believed in any God nor did I think anything could change my mind. I suppose I have a lot a faith is something now, which I don't believe will have a negative effect on me. A lot of people these days just say they believe because they are afraid of what may happen to them someday. Others just follow what they have been taught their whole lives and treat it as a lifestyle, and don't truly understand what they are talking about. I do agree that the human mind is an incredible thing. There are many things that your mind is capable of, that which most people never experience or have an opportunity to use.

I don't really know where I am in religion. I have to believe that there is more out there than just us, but without evidence, it just makes it hard. I used to find myself trying to believe for that reason you stated in wondering if what the Bible says is true about what happens when you die. I stopped that because I knew it wasn't right. My stance is that I do believe there is something there, but have questions that will LITERALLY never be answered by anyone on this Earth. I don't live my life thinking God or Jesus will get me through it, but I do live according to what is told in the Commandments. But I mostly live by that because, to me, it is morally right. Later, QD.

[Jdm94Coupe]

I don't really know where I am in religion. I have to believe that there is more out there than just us, but without evidence, it just makes it hard. I used to find myself trying to believe for that reason you stated in wondering if what the Bible says is true about what happens when you die. I stopped that because I knew it wasn't right. My stance is that I do believe there is something there, but have questions that will LITERALLY never be answered by anyone on this Earth. I don't live my life thinking God or Jesus will get me through it, but I do live according to what is told in the Commandments. But I mostly live by that because, to me, it is morally right. Later, QD.

For once QD, I think we agree. Lol. I'm more of a prove it to me type of guy, like you say there is no physical evidence. I find it hard to live my entire life believing something that most likely isnt true. I have many discussions with friends and co-workers all the time. These are a few topics I brought up the other day when we were discussing it....

1. How many people do you know that have a religion that DIFFERS from their parents or their family? Do you REALLY think that most people get the opportunity to decide on their own, what religion they REALLY believe in? OR are they forced to believe what their family believes? With the exception of people who don't have a religion, EVERYONE i know believes what their family believes.

2. Doesn't it seem like most who are "chruch going" people are made out to be "better" then people who don't go to church? I'm a great guy and morally I make smart decisions. I've had problems in the past with parents wanting their daughters to date a "church going" guy. My question is, why do people think that automatically makes the guy worthy to date their daughter? When my daughter gets older, I'm going to get to know the guy she is dating on a personal level, not judge what he believes is going to happen when he dies......

[Dylan]

No one can depend on their religion to get them through life. You are the only one that can control your life and believing otherwise is just ignorant. Everyone knows right from wrong and can make their own decision when the time comes. If I have even the slightest feeling of negativity from a situation I do not commit. I live my life as morally correct as I can, because living in this manner I believe only good karma will come my way. If I see someone that needs help where I can give them support I will be there for them. Not just because of religion, more of based on how I was raised and know what I should and shouldn't do.

[CSquared]

All I can say is that if there is a god, and he requires being formally worshiped (churches and so on) then I really don't want anything to do with it. I grew up catholic, and the church always drilled it into our heads that you have to go to church to be a good catholic, which I did for a while. But as you get older you start to realize that people (including those who run your church) don't always tell the truth and don't always have your best interest in mind. Then you get exposed to a plethora of other religions and I've got to imagine that any logical person thinks, "Wow so many other people have such strong beliefs in other religions. How can I be so sure that MINE is the one that is absolutely correct and everyone else is wrong?". As it stands I am open to the existence of god, but as far as I'm concerned if there is a heaven my way will be paved by moral actions over my lifetime as opposed to worship. I think if there is an all knowing and understanding god... He will understand and respect my position... Agnostic :D

[Chilanter]

Im not Christian, but this website breaks it down pretty well.
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php

[.blank cd]

Im not Christian, but this website breaks it down pretty well.
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php

That is the stupidest website I have ever seen. I hope you don't think that it provides absolute proof that god exists

[Chilanter]

No, it wasn't proof. Just another point of view. I'm at a point where I dont need to look for some sort of mystery code to provide me evidence to know that theres a god. Its like asking why the sky is blue and the grass green. Its commen sense.

[Bacon]

So, it's common sense that God exists? Care to elaborate on that?

Why grass is green has been proven. Why the sky is blue has been proven.

[quickdodge®]

to know that theres a god.

know = believe.


Its commen sense.

Common? Later, QD.

[.blank cd]

No, it wasn't proof. Just another point of view. I'm at a point where I dont need to look for some sort of mystery code to provide me evidence to know that theres a god. Its like asking why the sky is blue and the grass green. Its commen sense.

The sky is blue because of Rayleigh scattering. Chlorophyll makes plants green

[quickdodge®]

The sky is blue because of Rayleigh scattering. Chlorophyll makes plants green

No secret code there! This info has been published in text book in grade schools all over for years. Later, QD.

[Benefit]

You might have evolved from a monkey, but not me.

[quickdodge®]

We all evolved single-celled amoeba. Later, QD.

[Bacon]

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys in today's world?

[Benefit]

Is it star dust, single-cell amoeba or monkeys?

[.blank cd]

No secret code there! This info has been published in text book in grade schools all over for years. Later, QD.

This is why I'm against religion and the belief in god. It makes it acceptable to shut our minds off to the answers and say "god did it".

[quickdodge®]

Is it star dust, single-cell amoeba or monkeys?

Spongebob Squarepants, sir. Later, QD.

[.blank cd]

You might have evolved from a monkey, but not me.

And no one evolved from monkeys. This is a common evolutionary misconception. Evolutionary biology shows us that humans and modern primates have a common ancestor.

[Benefit]

Yeah, i guess the human eye was created from single cell amoeba...makes perfect sense

[Benefit]

And no one evolved from monkeys. This is a common evolutionary misconception. Evolutionary biology shows us that humans and modern primates have a common ancestor.

everything has a common ancestor...

[.blank cd]

everything has a common ancestor...

You are correct. This is called abiogenesis. The study of how biological life arose

[quickdodge®]

Yeah, i guess the human eye was created from single cell amoeba...makes perfect sense

Now we're getting somewhere! Later, QD.

[Benefit]

QD you serious...

looks like we have evolved from any and everything except a higher being...

so because a cat has a skull i have evolved from a cat?

[.blank cd]

Yeah, i guess the human eye was created from single cell amoeba...makes perfect sense

You can't jump from a single celled organism straight to an eye. This isn't how evolution works, and something creationists fail to understand.

[Chilanter]

Theres this book called the Quran(Bible,Torah) Thats dedicated entirely on the belief in god. If your actually looking for an understanding of why pple like me believe in the thing called god, then read an study it. Just like you would study every other theory or philosophy. Intead of debating an demanding answers from people who actually took the time to read.

[quickdodge®]

QD you serious

Lolol. Later, QD.

[Benefit]

Theres this book called the Quran(Bible,Torah) Thats dedicated entirely on the belief in god. If your actually looking for an understanding of why pple like me believe in the thing called god, then read an study it. Just like you would study every other theory or philosophy. Intead of debating an demanding answers from people who actually took the time to read.

I am muslim, i have finished the quran 4 times...

[.blank cd]

Theres this book called the Quran(Bible,Torah) Thats dedicated entirely on the belief in god. If your actually looking for an understanding of why pple like me believe in the thing called god, then read an study it. Just like you would study every other theory or philosophy. Intead of debating an demanding answers from people who actually took the time to read.
It's funny, a lot of people I've talked to also don't believe in god BECAUSE they read The Bible and the Quran

[Benefit]

You can't jump from a single celled organism straight to an eye. This isn't how evolution works, and something creationists fail to understand.

its like saying a tadpole went to a frog then the frog went to toad and became a gecko then chameleon somehow

[quickdodge®]

Reading that literature doesn't provide me with enough "evidence." Who's to say that some Joe Schmo didn't write this fantastical tale ages ago? Later, QD.

[.blank cd]

its like saying a tadpole went to a frog then the frog went to toad and became a gecko then chameleon somehow

Evolution doesn't work that way either. It's not linear.

[Benefit]

Evolution is natural selection, not single cell amoeba turning into a human with complex organs over millions of years

Natural Selection, meaning there was 2 frogs, one could jump higher than the other therefore the one who could jump higher escaped from his enemy and now that frogs babies are higher jumping frogs...doesnt mean that frog turns into a color changing chameleon to avoid capture

[.blank cd]

Evolution is natural selection, not single cell amoeba turning into a human with complex organs over millions of years

Natural Selection, meaning there was 2 frogs, one could jump higher than the other therefore the one who could jump higher escaped from his enemy and now that frogs babies are higher jumping frogs...doesnt mean that frog turns into a color changing chameleonYes, natural selection plays a part in evolution, but you're only talking about one biological trait: leg strength. There are numbers of other factors that play into evolution.

[Benefit]

Natural selection is the nonrandom process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution.

[.blank cd]

Natural selection is the nonrandom process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution.

Alright now we're getting somewhere! Now let's apply that knowledge to real life.

[Benefit]

Yes, believe the one guy with a conspiracy theory but not the millions with religion...

[Echonova]

The answer is 42.

[Benefit]

Lol echo...

[Benefit]

I dont get why you would rather believe the one guy with an idea, rather than intricate religious texts and beliefs

[.blank cd]

Yes, believe the one guy with a conspiracy theory but not the millions with religion...
It's not one guy that believes in evolution. It is accepted throughout the scientific community, all over the world, something that can't be said about any religion. Also, just because a million people believe in religion doesn't mean it's true. Remember, a few hundred years ago, everyone "believed" the earth was flat.

[.blank cd]

I dont get why you would rather believe the one guy with an idea, rather than intricate religious texts and beliefs

Because your religion is based solely on an "intricate text" written by multiple people over the course of hundreds of years

[Benefit]

The only thing accepted throughout the scientific community is that we evolved from monkeys, only because of the bone structure...how come monkeys cant speak? Why is there still monkeys if they transformed into humans?

[.blank cd]

The only thing accepted throughout the scientific community is that we evolved from monkeys, only because of the bone structure...how come monkeys cant speak?

We didnt evolve from monkeys, nor is that commonly accepted In the scientific community. That is a creationist misconception. The reason we are related isn't only bone structure. It's behavioral patterns, muscle/organ layout, DNA. Other primates have their own form of communication for the same reason dogs and cats and birds have their own form of communication. Vocal chord structure, environment.

[quickdodge®]

rather than intricate religious texts

These "intricate religious texts" don't prove anything. They don't prove that any God had any say in any thing. Anyone, if they put their mind to it, can fabricate a book and say a higher power was the reason. Authors have been around for years. Even with fiction books, there are similarities to real life events. Just as in the Bible.


and beliefs

Because of just that. It's beliefs. Not facts. Big difference. Later, QD.

[Bacon]

And this is why I am an agnostic atheist. Modern day literature is factual simply because we can physically see with our own eyes what the book tells us. No "religious literature" proves anything. We did not evolve from monkeys. One of the frogs was tired and didn't want to jump higher than the other.

The debate of whether "God" or "Allah" exists will go on forever and will likely never be proven.



A question to the religious people in here: How do you know your religion is the right one?

[Benefit]

So i guess humans are going to evolve too right?

[Bacon]

So i guess humans are going to evolve too right?

Doubtful but I would assume anything is possible. Not in my lifetime though.

[Benefit]

And im guessing a Giraffe was a dog at some point,it just kept trying to eat tree leaves and its neck just grew... right?

[Bacon]

Either you aren't making any sense or I am having a hard time understanding what exactly it is you are trying to prove.

[Benefit]

It is because you have no explanation about the giraffe.

[Bacon]

Nobody has nor will they have an explanation about the giraffe. Even the ancestry between humans and monkeys hasn't been proven. There is a vast difference between where animals "evolved" from and the existence of any one deity.



I dont get why you would rather believe the one guy with an idea, rather than intricate religious texts and beliefs

The idea can be proven or disproved. Nothing contained within religious texts can be proven.

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You think humans aren't evolving?

[Benefit]

How?In what way?

[Bacon]

The only way I see it is body shapes and generalized adaptation to the ever growing world we create for ourselves.

[Benefit]

Evolution means the one with the better traits THRIVES and the other DIES OUT...

[quickdodge®]

The debate of whether "God" or "Allah" exists will go on forever and will likely never be proven.

I was actually hoping that it would be proven in this thread....tonight.


Evolution means the one with the better traits THRIVES and the other DIES OUT...

This is called Survival of the Fittest. Not evolution. Later, QD.

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How?In what way?

Humans are evolving! There are many examples. I'll elaborate when I get home.

[Benefit]

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase originating in evolutionary theory, as an alternative description of Natural selection.

[Bacon]

Keep hoping, QD. Won't happen. If by some act of Congress it does get proven tonight, grab my number from Kevin and call me. That will be worth a round of beers ( and Mtn. Dew in your case ) for everyone.

[quickdodge®]

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase originating in evolutionary theory, as an alternative description of Natural selection.

I see someone has gotten their theology degree from Wikipedia, lolol. Later, QD.

[Bacon]

Bottom line is the existence of any one deity cannot be physically proven, and therefore will remain in a theoretical state until proven otherwise.

Idea > Theory > (empty space where research will determine if the theory can be proven) > Fact or Fiction.

[Echonova]

Idea > Theory > (empty space where research will determine if the theory can be proven) > Fact or Fiction.You'll be waiting a long time...

No scientific law has ever been proven to be absolute, the existing ones just haven't been proven wrong yet... But we are kinda comparing apples to oranges. Science and Religion operate on two different planes. One is based on the physical universe, the other is not.

If we all came from single-celled amoeba... Where did the single-celled amoeba come from? What catalyst caused it to form and sparked it into life? How did it know it was alive? How did it know it wanted to survive?



Anyway, I'm not really here to debate anyone. Science has proven no one will change their mind based on an internet posting.

[Benefit]

http://i39.tinypic.com/21l4t4k.jpg

[Echonova]

http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss161/RaptureMan66/Flyingtanks.jpg

[Benefit]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Echonova again

[Echonova]

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/dmtryptamine/kittens.jpg

[Echonova]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/Lecturedog/Signage/Flying-Dogs.jpg

[Benefit]

Echonova brings the lulz

[BABY J]

Name ONE thing that Jesus has personally done for you or anyone that you know in the last 5 years -- actually make it 10 years.

/thread

[quickdodge®]

If we all came from single-celled amoeba... Where did the single-celled amoeba come from? What catalyst caused it to form and sparked it into life? How did it know it was alive? How did it know it wanted to survive?

I really was just kidding. I don't really have any beliefs on any of this. I think we're all just here. Later, QD.

[Benefit]

Lolol

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Humans are evolving! There are many examples. I'll elaborate when I get home.First I'll explain how science shows modern primates and humans are connected. There is an ancient homonid species, A. afarensis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus_afarensis), which is what the scientific community now regards as the common ancestor between us and modern primates. Separating it and putting it in different environmental situations, we can both agree that it would adapt to its surroundings. We are a result of millions of years of evolution of that adaptation, whatever the selected trait was, humans resulted from it, and primates resulted from a different selected trait, and within primates, they all resulted from their own selection. Think of it more like a tree than a line.

Years ago scientists found remains of an early human species. It had a similar skull and DNA similarities. That was about 200k-40k years ago. We can tell the age from the radiocarbon dating process. So you're not gonna see major evolutionary (morphologically human) changes in your lifetime. Not in about 100 of your lifetimes. Changes are gradual, and evolution is a VERY time consuming process. However, there are smaller evolutionary changes. There are studies that show lactose tolerance is a desirable evolutionary trait, and it is readily measurable. Another evolutionary change is ASPM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASPM_%28gene%29).

Bottom line is the existence of any one deity cannot be physically proven, and therefore will remain in a theoretical state until proven otherwise.

Idea > Theory > (empty space where research will determine if the theory can be proven) > Fact or Fiction.This is the reason I love it when creationists say "evolution is just a theory" I agree with them 100% on that. Theory is a hypothesis supported with facts, evidence, and repeated conclusive testing. The believe in creation, god, jesus, and the bible, on the other hand isnt supported by any of those. So those of us in the scientific community call that a "conjecture"

[quickdodge®]

Using all these big ass words is now really starting to confuse me. Later, QD.

[Benefit]

Yeah, i took an anthropology class in college and the teacher was trying to preach the same stuff...australopithecus afarensis

[Benefit]

http://i44.tinypic.com/14o6oar.jpg

to

http://i43.tinypic.com/1ooyth.jpg

[quickdodge®]

to

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/media/sites/tampabay.com.blogs.media/files/images/typepad-legacy-files/52027.6a00d83451b05569e20120a7b32933970b-pi.jpg

Later, QD.

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Yeah, i took an anthropology class in college and the teacher was trying to preach the same stuff...australopithecus afarensisIts difficult to grasp because we cant see it happening, but it happens. Those two skull samples are separated by almost two hundred thousand years

[Chilanter]

Because your religion is based solely on an "intricate text" written by multiple people over the course of hundreds of years

Authenticity of the Quran,
http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html

[Chilanter]

It's not one guy that believes in evolution. It is accepted throughout the scientific community, all over the world, something that can't be said about any religion. Also, just because a million people believe in religion doesn't mean it's true. Remember, a few hundred years ago, everyone "believed" the earth was flat.

The Science in Quran
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_95.html

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Authenticity of the Quran,
http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.htmlSo what you're telling me is that the Quran is the word of Allah, which was told by an angel, who then told Mohammed to write it down.

Sounds like another book I once read, which was written in a surprisingly similar fashion.

Or are you trying to say that the Quran and Allah is true because the Quran itself says its true?

[Chilanter]

So what you're telling me is that the Quran is the word of Allah, which was told by an angel, who then told Mohammed to write it down.

Sounds like another book I once read, which was written in a surprisingly similar fashion.

Or are you trying to say that the Quran and Allah is true because the Quran itself says its true?

Yup, im guessing the other book you read was the Bible. Islam actually believes Jesus was also a prophet who was given the same task to send the message. Don't remember whole thing but the Bible was somehow altered which was why the Quran was revealed like 600 years later. Unless someone proves that Mohammed,Jesus, and Moses were somehow part of a fairy tale and the Quran actually composed by an illiterate arab, ill stick with my belief in god.

[-EnVus-]

So what you're telling me is that the Quran is the word of Allah, which was told by an angel, who then told Mohammed to write it down.

Sounds like another book I once read, which was written in a surprisingly similar fashion.


Harry potter ?

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Harry potter ?
Not the text I was referring to, but it'll work.

[Chilanter]

Not the text I was referring to, but it'll work.

lol basically its an endless debate. Two completely different points of view.

[JDMEK18]

Yes, I Couldn't live with out the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost!!
Not knocking anyone else but for me and my house hold it will be "Jesus" forever and ever..
Not for Riches, Not for saftey, - Just because I love Him. (Although I'm grateful for His gift of eternal life, salvation, and forgiveness of sins - Thanks U Jesus!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pM0hO8Jh7o&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1

Man - I was flipping channels and ran up on this tbn show and talk about "Real Talk" - true blessing right her!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGEWro-tqPY&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1

[AnthonyF]

Looking back at my post in 2009, and 2½ years later I am leaning more and more towards the evolution side. It's just Proof vs. No-Proof. Damn I love watching SCI, NatGeo and Discovery. Why would you even only want to believe in One thing? Expand your mind and let it run wild. There are endless possibilities this universe can offer to us. Unfortunately we probably will never see, either because of 12/21/12 or just b/c we are just too young.

-Ant.

[WhiteAccord]

Same here... Proof vs. No Proof... Anyone watch ancient aliens? It makes more sense Devine beings were aliens.

[Benefit]

Lol proof...no one can answer my question about the giraffe or why monkeys are still around

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Lol proof...no one can answer my question about the giraffe or why monkeys are still around

I showed you the proof. The proof is in textbooks all around the world. Monkeys are still around for the same reason humans are still around. They are another branch on the evolutionary tree. Failure to understand evolution doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Benefit]

What about the textbooks that were around before darwin?

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What about the textbooks that were around before darwin?

Very good question. Think of this the same way you know why computers didn't exist in the 1800s. As the human brain EVOLVED, we got smarter, more inquisitive. Just like someone came along and discovered the microchip, or the car, or the fact that the earth was round, or solar centricity, Charles Darwin was one of the first to observe and document evolution.

[Benefit]

I am not denying evolution, it occurs, i know. But it is not drastic like a monkey turning into a human. it is more like a lizard>salamander not lizard>crocodile

And its also funny where people think religion or evolution...both are real

[.blank cd]

I am not denying evolution, it occurs, i know. But it is not drastic like a monkey turning into a human. it is more like a lizard>salamander not lizard>crocodile

And its also funny where people think religion or evolution...both are real
Evolution isn't linear. It's complex. It's like the branches of a tree that's been growing for billions of years. Billions. History has only been around for a blink of an eye comparatively so it's difficult to grasp. Religion is real in the sense that the term and the ideal exists. Scientifically, no one has proved the existence of a creator, Jesus, Mohammad, Allah, or any of that. Religion is a construct of man used to give a single meaning to life and to give a single answer to the unknown. It's scary to think that once you die, that's it. There's nothing else. Religionists think that that strips all meaning from life, when it reality it gives life that much more meaning. Religion is dangerous. It is the single leading cause of war and aggression. You leave the meaning of an evil, religious text in the hands of man to interpret his own way. That leads to a struggle.
I find it incredibly troubling that in such an advanced society that we still use religion as a crutch when the answers are out there. Sure it takes a little more work, but in the end it's more beautiful and more rewarding to find them than to shrug them off as a design of a creator

[Benefit]

http://i42.tinypic.com/a17pjt.gif

"all point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not increase it."

This is exactly opposite of what evolutionists claim. They claim that mutations caused single celled organisms to evolve into people.

But, how could a single celled organism evolve into anything if a mutation would cause it to lose genetic information?

Evolution demands mutations that produce new information. But mutations cannot and do not provide new information.

Some Evolutionists like Pierre-Paul Grasse are starting to see this flaw in their theory. Grasse is on record as saying:

"No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution."


"I agree 100 percent with my creationist brethren that our ancestors did not swing from trees by their tails"

A chameleon didnt acquire the trait of changing colors by evolving from a different lizard...even that is too big of a mutation or evolution...so monkey to human is pretty much absurd...

[-EnVus-]

I don't deny aliens but it's as hard to believe as time travel. Also you have to know the good text and that angels wS on earth with mankind at one point. So our ideas and advancement could come from them.
Also a theory of what the mayans saw was angels not aliens.
I just follow a guy named Darwin or atheist I'd rather have a higher being to have faith in then nothing at all.
It we all was to die tomorrow I know I'd die with hope and faith.
Not go out like a fart in the wind like atheist will

[quickdodge®]

Not go out like a fart in the wind like atheist will

But you just might. No one really knows. Later, QD.

[95420A]

If you can't prove your point either way what is the use in arguing? No one can say definitively that there is or is not a creator, be it god or an alien civilization. So what's the use in carrying on trying to get someone to believe in what you do? Chances are you're never gonna change their minds because arguing automatically puts people on the defensive and they are much less likely to listen. I'm not saying I agree either way, I know what I believe and those are my personal beliefs.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[Chilanter]

I showed you the proof. The proof is in textbooks all around the world. Monkeys are still around for the same reason humans are still around. They are another branch on the evolutionary tree. Failure to understand evolution doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


No one fails to understand evolution. Just sees evolution from a different perspective.

http://www.parvez-video.com/insight/islam/evolution_quran/index.asp

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No one fails to understand evolution. Just sees evolution from a different perspective.

http://www.parvez-video.com/insight/islam/evolution_quran/index.asp

There isn't another perspective of evolution.

[Benefit]

Oh well, even if there was ANY WAY we evolved from a monkey...the monkey still praises allah

[quickdodge®]

So what's the use in carrying on trying to get someone to believe in what you do?

This is what really, really turns me off religion. Those people are not content with having their faith. They insist on shoving it down everyone's throat. I got so tired of them knocking on my door every other weekend and refusing to believe that I wasn't interested that I finally invited them in....................to a mock scene of a witchcraft ritual. It could have backfired on me, but luckily it didn't. They have not been back to my house in over two years. Also, every time they come to the neighborhood and park their car in front of my house to traipse the area, I step outside with phone in hand and they immediately run to their car and move it.

Point is, I don't go to these people's place of worship and try to convince them their is nothing to their faith so don't come to my home and try to convince me of your beliefs. If I want to learn, I'll come to you. Later, QD.

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If you can't prove your point either way what is the use in arguing?

Whats really frustrating is when religious people ask me questions about how the world actually works: "so what is 1+1 anyway?". When I tell them the answer is 2 and this is how you get the answer, they're usually like "that's bullshit, god/Jesus/etc. says its 3". So why even ask? Religion and creation are
so engrained in their whole way of life that it's sometimes difficult to question it at all. A lot of the time I run into people that are on that edge, but are afraid to question their beliefs simply because of what their family friends will think of them, because it is absolutely taboo to question god.

So why argue? For those willing to open their minds, It's rewarding to see people overcome religious constraints and stop believing in dogma. It's a weight on a lot of people's shoulders having to live by bronze age standards and norms. Its a relief to know that ultimately no one is judging your actions but man.

[Echonova]

http://i42.tinypic.com/a17pjt.gifYou do realize there is no specific timeline in the Bible. Where some people come up with this 6,000 yr old Earth stuff is beyond me.



It we all was to die tomorrow I know I'd die with hope and faith.
Not go out like a fart in the wind like atheist willPeople that are non-believers can still get to Heaven. However, they will be judged on their actions in life. Jesus died to save all who believe (and truly live a Christian life after being "saved") from that judgement. You can't just have an "I believe in God as my back-up plan in case he exists" mentality. One of the benefits of being an Omnipotent God is... Well, being Omnipotent. He knows. If a Tibetan Monk that lived in a Monastery and never heard of Jesus or the Gospel, yet still lead a righteous life... Do you think he would be denied Heaven? I don't.

The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council also gave their assessment of this back in the 60's as well. "The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

(Sorry for the rant, my mind went off on a tangent. Not an attack on you or your statement)

But you just might. No one really knows. Later, QD.True dat.


There isn't another perspective of evolution.LOL... And I guess anyone that believes in a divine power or differently than you are the closed-minded ones right?



Point is, I don't go to these people's place of worship and try to convince them their is nothing to their faith so don't come to my home and try to convince me of your beliefs. If I want to learn, I'll come to you. Later, QD.Is having a debate on religion over the internet really any different?

I'm in your house, trying to convert y0 mind without knocking on the door.

LOL.

But yeah... I agree with you on this one. Believing is a choice. If you don't believe, fine. I'm not here to convince anyone otherwise. I don't have the Bible memorized and all the answers off the top of my head, and I'm sure there is someone more knowledgeable on the subject than me here. In fact, I may not even being doing a good job at relaying whatever is "approved" doctrine. I believe what I believe based on what I have experienced in my life. Nothing more, nothing less. I go to church to "continue my education" (for lack of a better term), but that journey will last for more years than I have left.