Religion Do you believe in God? Simple question [Archive] - Page 2 - IMPORTATLANTA.COM - Automotive, Lifestyle, Offtopic, Forum, Blog, & Online Community

sport_122

07-13-2009, 12:00 PM

To grasp the real meaning?? cmon, guy...
from what i have gathered the bible contains nothing more than morals and guidance to a 'better' way of life.

...shortened for space.

Yolimbo,

you seem to be the ONLY "smart" person who thinks that Evolution answered the question of human origin, logic and moral code. No major evolutionists believes that. If evolution is your final answer to everything then fine, you can only say that after ignoring billions of years of development that happened before that, and just about every scientist who has ever published something about human origins and life origins. But I am sure you have already done this because you talked about the adaptation and breeding of Dogs, which is NOT evolution.

In your evolution post, I actually agreed with the statement of the modern church often fails to maintain the teachings as written in the Bible. This is partially true. Evolution is partially true (but you also mixed it with adaptation which isn't the same thing and that tells me you don't know what evolution is), then you said "that some of these churches either mis-interpret the Bible or ignore it completely" This is where you should have stopped. You completely showed us that you are just like these people. You don't want to get your information from the Bible about what Christianity is, yet you obviously don't know what it is based on your comments about God and suffering, and then you reject a statement were someone encourages you to actually listen to good scholarly conversation on the topic. How is that supposed to support your previously grounded stance...it doesn't. So are you wanting to have an informed opinion or just one based off of rhetoric and hypothesized statements.

You ask foolish general questions about the christian faith and then you try to answer them with your nonsensical statements and uninformed viewpoints. You are not a person who really cares to know demonstrated by your response to my post. My post has NOTHING to do with your NDE. My post was to say that if you are going to study in the Bible, you can't just read it and you can't just sit in front of a pastor and let him tell you what it means. its not harry potter. It is a book written in a different time, culture, and language. Nothing secular or religious that meets those criteria can simply be read or dictated in pieces and understood. It has historical value, not because the church says it, but because secular historians say it, it has sociological, philosophical, and anthropological value not because Christians say it, but because sociologists, philosophers, and anthropologists say it. These are the very people that wrote your history books and your social studies books.

Do you even realize that the only way any science is valid is if we can link the findings together somehow, and if our universe is just an explosion gone made then there is NO link unless there is more.

Also, atheists and agnostics have been around for a long time. This is not a new movement. There is a NEO-atheistic movement going on, but it is just the same thing with a different coat, but you didn't know that did you...you know why? because you ignore the very evidence of things in history that people would present to you. The true sign of a fool is one who claims to have knowledge yet refused to do what is necessary to acquire the things required for understanding. I find it pretty damn retarded that you would post all this stuff when you obviously don't know a damn thing about the other viewpoint. And I really doubt you feel bummed out because you are an atheist...its probably more related to your lack of good arguments for being one. And if you don't have good sound arguments for your belief (this goes to Christians as well) then you are doing yourself an injustice by not throwing yourself into as much understanding about all viewpoints as you can.

So to sort it out:

Tell me what church has told you that they will make you evil-free or that you will live an evil free life? And how did you know that this was BS? I have NEVER heard a church say this.

What tells you that God ENJOYS the suffering of men? I have never seen this in the Bible either, nor have I heard it from anyone except atheistic fundamentalists who have to force themselves to ignore parts of the Bible to even come close to making this statement.

What causes the suffering of men?

What would make you say that the Bible has morals and guidelines to a better way of life, when it is very clear that we are to follow the same God that you claim enjoys to watch us suffer?

What morals come from the Bible?

Does the Bible say that God leaves his chilrden?

What makes you think this country is Big into religion?

If you believe in God, and you partially act as though you don't completely doubt his existence, then how would you define him and how is it accurate?

sport_122

07-13-2009, 12:05 PM

aaahhh... he spoke you into existence? you and i are different -- let me clear you in on something... we're actually apes, not monkeys. if we were monkeys then why are there still 'monkeys' living on earth today?? i know!

There are STILL Apes too!!! Why are there still apes? You don't know a damn thing about evolution do you? I am a christian who believes that evolution is partially true, but i know that you don't know a damn thing about it and what it speaks about our existence.

Incontt

07-13-2009, 12:05 PM

YOUR god tells you to kill fags. Walk the walk instead of just talk.
I am saying your convictions are as weak as your religion. Whats your facnination with my penis? Drink some more kool aid and turn the other cheek. I know you love me...the bible tells you to.
Gone to eat lunch at Hooters. Ill be expecting those prayers you guys are doing for me to get answered.

you have an open invite to try me when ever you see me. but you wont do anything so end this liitle display of how small you penis is here. thank you

yojimbo---calling me stupid is not gonna help believe a theory that has never or will never be proven. keep living in the city throwing shit at the other "APES". i will stay here (where ever that is) laughing at you.
believe what you want. i just asked the question of why. why believe something that doesnt even sound correct to common sense. i would much rather believe someone created a world that is SO COMPLEX. a boom or natural selection could have made something with so much detail and perfection.....take a look at any explosion. i have never seen it create anything but destruction, not life

sport_122

07-13-2009, 12:19 PM

i wonder if that's the norm in speciation.... cause you can't just come up with new genes on the fly for new environments/demands, so regulatory genes are the first to advance, like scaffolding, until the rest of the genome can build itself up to standards.
which could be related to punctuated equilibrium(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium).. thoughts?

... haha i can keep this up --- all fuckin day son!!
so, answer me this. what's your theory on how humans came to be?

First off, I can't believe you are using Wiki to get information...I could make a wiki post saying we are all birds...or we are rabbits.:lmfao:

You actually choose to use wikipedia over books written by scholars and people who actually study this stuff...That may be why you said there are no more Apes...:no:

You need to look up Steven Jay Gould and learn something about it before you want to argue it....BTW...just so you know, there are many versions of evolution as well but NONE of them relate to Cosmology, or Ontology. So where does this validate any sort of evolution vs Creationism debate.

Creationism focuses on the catalyst of life, evolution focuses on the process of life. Please, connect the dots for me because I know for a fact that the Bible only give ONE specific with regards to the process of creation and that is that men come from the dust of the earth. (Abiogenesis. Life from non-life)

You wanna talk Biology bring it, but you better be ready to go back further than evolution because I have studied evolution and I know that the philosophical answers on life are NOT met by evolutionary theory. That is what people mean when they say it is not proven, they are saying that the process is not proven to have been the origin of life and rightly so because it does not account for the origins of life.

yojimbo

07-13-2009, 12:23 PM

sport_122

07-13-2009, 12:29 PM

YOUR god tells you to kill fags. Walk the walk instead of just talk.
I am saying your convictions are as weak as your religion.

Where is that from? Could you send me the information from the bible, I must have missed it somewhere?

btstone

07-13-2009, 12:32 PM

ahaha don't get butthurt now, stone...
i'm not calling you stupid, honestly. just a little - out there.

and yes an explosion does create destruction but look at natural explosions... take volcanos for example... although destructive the ashes they release eventually neutralizes the soil so it acts as natural fertilizer.
earth's been impacted by meteorites for millions of years, but we don't see the craters because they are now covered with water, plants, forests', ect...

oh no im not butthurt. i just enjoy finding flaws in your arguments.......and the earth's age is not known. if its 1 million years old or 10,000 years old. carbon dating has already been proven NOT to be a reliable source for dating

btstone

07-13-2009, 12:35 PM

sport 122, you, unlike bstone's posts has a very nice write up with signs of intelligence - i'll give you that. i could dissect your posts and rebuttal,
but that'd be a waste of time... for both of us.

so because he feels like wasting more time typing a post to someone who is obviously out there. I am not intelligent? hmmm. very smart

sport_122

07-13-2009, 01:13 PM

sport 122, you, unlike bstone's posts has a very nice write up with signs of intelligence - i'll give you that. i could dissect your posts and rebuttal,
but that'd be a waste of time... for both of us.

we're obviously two smart individuals with different beliefs. if you would like me to continue let me know... lunch is around the corner and i'm starving! smoking a j or two would also help me combat that wall of text and all your other little kitty posts, so don't count me out just yet.

i'll be back... and my posts might be a little longer than yours. kool

Im good with a discussion. I can handle a long post, I try not to type them, but you have to be really specific sometimes because people like to try to read into what is not there. But I have a problem with ANY side of the argument when we don't really bring forth three things.

First we have to agree that we have two different world views and that means that even though we may not agree, we still have to be willing to try to understand each other from our respective world views.

Second, we have to identify specifically what you want to discuss. and stick to it. Posts are long because there are too many varied topics. We can discuss evolution, but it will get us nowhere and it really doesn't even fall in the same philosophical and sociological plan as the christian faith so that is too complicated. We could discuss science in general as it relates to the christian faith. Anything specific.

Lastly, I will be respectful to you in discussion as long as you are respectful to me. If we can't have a respectful discussion back and forward then neither of us benefit and we are wasting each others time.

if we can keep to those things I am all for a good discussion, but I warn you. I have been VERY VERY Deep into this stuff for a long time, and it deals directly with my college degrees of study even before it dealt with my faith.

Buttons

07-13-2009, 01:33 PM

btstone

07-13-2009, 02:01 PM

YOUR god tells you to kill fags. Walk the walk instead of just talk.
I am saying your convictions are as weak as your religion. Whats your facnination with my penis? Drink some more kool aid and turn the other cheek. I know you love me...the bible tells you to.
Gone to eat lunch at Hooters. Ill be expecting those prayers you guys are doing for me to get answered.

why must i walk a certain way when you are shouting that i am supposed to kill fags? i am me, i do not worry about your ignorant rants about killing fags.
since you are so concerned with my walk, why dont you come hang out with me and see what i am about..... i dont drink, smoke, or go clubbing or any of that. not to say im perfect. but none of that stuff, I FEEL, betters me as a person so i do not do it.
if you do, that is totally fine. you will never hear me say a word to anyone about it being wrong. that is just my conviction...you may see me in a bar with some friends drinking a bottle of water, does that mean im not walking the walk. because i will go hang out with friends in a bar or party...i may even talk shit to people like on here....am i not walking my walk?
really, what can you say about my walk other than these internet shit talking i do...we know the internet is serious business.....and the street racing? i am not perfect, i will never be, but ill be damned if i am going to let some old fag tell me im not walking the walk when he cant tell the difference between the koran and the bible...:goodjob:

Incontt

07-13-2009, 03:16 PM

Where is that from? Could you send me the information from the bible, I must have missed it somewhere?

Homosexuality in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)
Leviticus 20:13

This verse is very similar to Leviticus 18:22 which we discuss in greater detail in another section. You might want to read the series of essays in that section first.
Overview of Leviticus 20:13:

This is almost identical to Leviticus 18:22. In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: "V'ish asher yishkav et zachar mishk'vei ishah to'evah asu shneihem mot yumatu d'meihem bam." However, it adds a compulsory death penalty to the participants. In various translation the passage has been translated:

* ASV: (American Standard Version, 1901) "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
* Darby: (J.N. Darby Translation, 1890): "And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them."
* ESV: (English Standard Version): "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
* HNV: (Hebrew Names Version): "If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
* KJV: (King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
* LB: (Living Bible): "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have brought it upon themselves."
* NASB: (New American Standard Bible): "'If {there is} a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. "
* Net Bible: "If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves." 1
* NIV: (New International Version) "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
* NKJV: (New King James Version) "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
* NLT: (New Living Translation): "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act, and are guilty of a capital offense."
* RSV: (Revised Standard Version): "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."
* Webster: (Noah Webster Version, 1833): "If a man also shall lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them."
* Young: (Robert Young Literal Translation, 1898) "And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them."

Incontt

07-13-2009, 03:18 PM

very god-like on the internet arent you. I love the excuses...christians have them because they need them. Exactly WHICH version of the bible do you live your life by?

why must i walk a certain way when you are shouting that i am supposed to kill fags? i am me, i do not worry about your ignorant rants about killing fags.
since you are so concerned with my walk, why dont you come hang out with me and see what i am about..... i dont drink, smoke, or go clubbing or any of that. not to say im perfect. but none of that stuff, I FEEL, betters me as a person so i do not do it.
if you do, that is totally fine. you will never hear me say a word to anyone about it being wrong. that is just my conviction...you may see me in a bar with some friends drinking a bottle of water, does that mean im not walking the walk. because i will go hang out with friends in a bar or party...i may even talk shit to people like on here....am i not walking my walk?
really, what can you say about my walk other than these internet shit talking i do...we know the internet is serious business.....and the street racing? i am not perfect, i will never be, but ill be damned if i am going to let some old fag tell me im not walking the walk when he cant tell the difference between the koran and the bible...:goodjob:

btstone

07-13-2009, 03:47 PM

very god-like on the internet arent you. I love the excuses...christians have them because they need them. Exactly WHICH version of the bible do you live your life by?

what is your excuse for not being able to read and comprehend a post. is it the school system, the way you were raised, etc.....excuses you dumb asses give for being stupid....

re-read my post dumb ass.....try to understand it
any idiot can use me as an excuse not to like christians. not the smartest idea, it is usually a cop-out. but what ever makes you feel better about being you. when death comes, we will see who is right.

find an excuse i have made! i will gladly re-cant it

end thread

Ocelot

07-13-2009, 04:09 PM

you don't drink? according to some biblical stories drinking is perfectly fine.

Buttons

07-13-2009, 04:17 PM

when did jerry mention the Koran? i'm confused. the bible said death to homosexuality. that has nothing to do with any other religious scripture?

btstone

07-13-2009, 05:12 PM

you don't drink? according to some biblical stories drinking is perfectly fine.

re read the post, i didnt say anything was wrong with drinking

see thats why there are so many dumb asses out there....no one knows how to read. they read 2 words and think that is it

Buttons

07-13-2009, 05:13 PM

re read the post, i didnt say anything was wrong with drinking

see thats why there are so many dumb asses out there....no one knows how to read. they read 2 words and think that is it

you say you feel it doesn't better you as a person, but why were drinking laws made? by hypocrites. why can't we drink on sunday?... oops, i meant "buy" on sunday.

btstone

07-13-2009, 05:17 PM

you say you feel it doesn't better you as a person, but why were drinking laws made? by hypocrites. why can't we drink on sunday?... oops, i meant "buy" on sunday.

so where did i say it was wrong. and drinking laws are made for a reason. NOT SAYING ALL, but how many times have you heard of ppl being completely diff when they are drunk, going all violent and shit. how many girls get drunk and become super easy to have sex with? i know of many. i been with quite a few back in the day. you said that your self. drinking laws are placed for a reason, just like speeding laws, and etc

Buttons

07-13-2009, 05:25 PM

so where did i say it was wrong. and drinking laws are made for a reason. NOT SAYING ALL, but how many times have you heard of ppl being completely diff when they are drunk, going all violent and shit. how many girls get drunk and become super easy to have sex with? i know of many. i been with quite a few back in the day. you said that your self. drinking laws are placed for a reason, just like speeding laws, and etc

how about you read? no reason to come at me when I understood what you wrote, which i can't say the same for you.

BY DRINKING LAWS, i basically spelled out the "can't buy alcohol on sunday" law. if you can't comprehend that one, stop coming at people saying you are evolved, smart, and other nonsense.

Khalifa247

07-13-2009, 07:31 PM

IMO, if you really think about it really hard, Its impossible that something greater couldn't exist. Every explanation I have ever heard as to why something greater couldn't exist makes no sense, well they make sense but dance around the fact that something causes everything. The big bang and all the other theories are very solid but if there was absolutely nothing in existence nothing would have ever come of it. I have lots of other reasons for the my beliefs too but I'm not going to make a text wall. My beliefs are entirely my own I have never been to a church or anything like that I think that there is something out there and hopefully something after I die. So god=yes religion=lulz.

BABY J

07-13-2009, 07:48 PM

Man - there is a lot of win in here. But definitely more lose. LOL

zimabog

07-13-2009, 09:58 PM

In opposite scope of my post #219:

If you research quantum mechanics and read about electrons, positrons, quarks, protons, bosons, ect... Then you also know that there are things so inversely sized to the thousand lightyear wide celestial objects I mentioned that you could say their existence is irrelevant in our day to day life. But on the contrary, for if these subatomic did not exist then the universe would be an infinite vacuum and not filled with the matter we know of today. The sole fact that atoms can share electrons to form a covalent bond is so important that practically everything to use today, even your own body would not exist. Something that is less than .1% of the entire mass of the atom its part of, yet the atom could practically not exist without it.

So we humans could feel like those 3,000 lightyear wide space objects compared to atoms. What does this scope of reality say to me? It says that even if there is a god/creator, it is completely not necessary to do the silly things religious people do. It, if exists, can't answer, or even hear prayers. It, if exists, does not have gender. It, if exists, can not do miracles. It, if exists, can not have an image. It, if exists, does not and can not judge you.

It, if exists, can not exist here.

So why call it god? If anything, call it nature. Nature is not divine, it is nature.

I'm an atheist.

Incontt

07-13-2009, 10:01 PM

I agree. I think something greater is prolly out there but the christian bible version aint it.
every year 15 million kids die from hunger. This all powerful christian god is a cold bastard. Think about that 15 million childrens bodies every year. He can make the world...the universe but cant feed these kids?
Look at the divorce rate amongst christians. Its practically the same as everyone elses. Apparently the bibles plan doesnt work so well. cause the whole thing is a sham but that offering plate fills up every week.

IMO, if you really think about it really hard, Its impossible that something greater couldn't exist. Every explanation I have ever heard as to why something greater couldn't exist makes no sense, well they make sense but dance around the fact that something causes everything. The big bang and all the other theories are very solid but if there was absolutely nothing in existence nothing would have ever come of it. I have lots of other reasons for the my beliefs too but I'm not going to make a text wall. My beliefs are entirely my own I have never been to a church or anything like that I think that there is something out there and hopefully something after I die. So god=yes religion=lulz.

zimabog

07-13-2009, 10:08 PM

I agree. I think something greater is prolly out there but the christian bible version aint it.

i do not believe in something greater. i wouldnt be an atheist if i did.

btstone

07-13-2009, 10:08 PM

Incontt

07-13-2009, 10:16 PM

exactly....christianity is THAT funny. time to go kill the adulterers

_Christian_

07-13-2009, 10:45 PM

oh no im not butthurt. i just enjoy finding flaws in your arguments.......and the earth's age is not known. if its 1 million years old or 10,000 years old. carbon dating has already been proven NOT to be a reliable source for dating
Wut? Are you referring to radiocarbon dating? It's half-life is only ~5700 years, so it can only date carbon rich substances to ~60,000 years.

Radiometric dating has been proven to be accurate through multiple methods per trial yielding the same result. The accepted age for the earth is ~4.5 billion years, and that was determined through Uranium-lead dating. I personally reject these findings, as I focus the majority of my studies on bronze age myths stating the world is 6000 years old.

you don't drink? according to some biblical stories drinking is perfectly fine.
I drink wine, the priest tells me it's the blood of Christ. nom nom nom

so where did i say it was wrong. and drinking laws are made for a reason. NOT SAYING ALL, but how many times have you heard of ppl being completely diff when they are drunk, going all violent and shit. how many girls get drunk and become super easy to have sex with? i know of many. i been with quite a few back in the day. you said that your self. drinking laws are placed for a reason, just like speeding laws, and etc
What purpose does forbidding drinking on the day of the sabbath serve other than that of religion? Everything remains the same the other six days of the week, so it's not really serving the greater good. WTF do easy girls have to do with law? Let's outlaw miniskirts and porn too!!! Hooray!! Speeding laws are for public safety :goodjob:

IMO, if you really think about it really hard, Its impossible that something greater couldn't exist. Every explanation I have ever heard as to why something greater couldn't exist makes no sense, well they make sense but dance around the fact that something causes everything. The big bang and all the other theories are very solid but if there was absolutely nothing in existence nothing would have ever come of it. I have lots of other reasons for the my beliefs too but I'm not going to make a text wall. My beliefs are entirely my own I have never been to a church or anything like that I think that there is something out there and hopefully something after I die. So god=yes religion=lulz.
Where would this God come from? Using a deity to explain something you can't doesn't make the argument anymore logically sound. You may answer the question, but sometimes having unanswered questions is better than having wrong answers. Remember, thunder and lightning used to be the work of "Gods."

So we humans could feel like those 3,000 lightyear wide space objects compared to atoms. What does this scope of reality say to me? It says that even if there is a god/creator, it is completely not necessary to do the silly things religious people do. It, if exists, can't answer, or even hear prayers. It, if exists, does not have gender. It, if exists, can not do miracles. It, if exists, can not have an image. It, if exists, does not and can not judge you.

I whole heatedly agree. If there was a creator, it don't think we are, in any way, of it's image, and it would not be concerned with peoples daily affairs, beliefs, prayers, sins, etc. We are just one species on a rock floating about in an infinite cosmos.

sport_122

07-14-2009, 12:29 AM

Homosexuality in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)
Leviticus 20:13
This verse is very similar to Leviticus 18:22 which we discuss in greater detail in another section. You might want to read the series of essays in that section first.
Overview of Leviticus 20:13:

* ASV: (American Standard Version, 1901) "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Leviticus does not dictate rules to the Christian church. The law of the priesthood in Leviticus do not apply to the Christian church, they never have. BTW when was the last time you saw a Christian give an animal sacrifice?

Hebrew 7 and 8 (and SEVERAL other place)shows all the rules and things you see there have a purpose and are not used to dictate Christian doctrine. In fact the purpose what for our sin to be made known to use (Romans 3:20).

BTW...this goes back to my point about understanding what the Bible is really saying. If you don't understand or know the cultural and It is not a book that just tells you a story. There is context and there is understanding, but you have to be willing to have some things explained instead of knowingly taking it out of context.

sport_122

07-14-2009, 12:57 AM

"bronze age myths stating the world is 6000 years old."

OK...I sense a Richard Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens fanboy...

Speeding laws are for public safety :goodjob:

You are correct. The consumption laws are definitely about religion mixing with politics. But the traffic laws are only about public safety in some places. They are MOSTLY about revenue. If it was about public safety cars could be regulated to not go above x mph and nobody would have to worry about getting tickets, but governments make $$$ on that junk so they keep it just high enough that you don't decentegrate but you can still get a nice hefty fine or jail time.

Where would this God come from? Using a deity to explain something you can't doesn't make the argument anymore logically sound.

We are just one species on a rock floating about in an infinite cosmos.
Who told you the universe was infinite? And in what sense? This could be an interesting discussion.

true also about logically sound arguments, just remember it works both ways. I'd also add that the problem is that some people think natural sciences hold weight on their own. IF they did we wouldn't NEED philosophy, psychology or the social sciences. Its the philosophical edge that always poke holes in the atheistic view point in the end. Philosophically we will never be able to measure ideas or concepts. Logic, Love, rationalization, emotions are not described by evolution theories and they cannot be accounted for. If you boil it down to biology then you have a hard time trying to add validity to science because all of our logic become nothing more than a chemical reaction. and if that is proven then atheism, religious faith, murder, lawlessness, love, anger, are all the same and cannot be condemned or applauded because there is NO reason or Logic. Scientific findings are nothing anymore. That is a much harder realization for me and it is philosophy, history, and psychology that point a strong finger at evidence for God, and of course there is a ridiculous disconnect between the world view so nobody listens to anybody and everybody is right.

geoff

07-14-2009, 05:11 AM

obviously this thread has gotten out of hand. the people arguing against the existence of God have not studied Him or christianity. its funny i heard people say before that christianity is nothing but brainwashing people into believing what they believe....kinda sounds the same to me as when people argue that there cant be a God because science cant prove Him or disprove Him. so for all you out there that dont care to search yourself and use the methods or sociology, philosophy, psychology, and social sciences to find truth i say to you, keep living your life on beliefs that other people have pounded into your head and keep living in your close-minded in a box way of thinking. i myself used to not know what to believe untill i searched and found God. i am free now from the world view that has been implanted in us since we first start school.

btstone

07-14-2009, 08:45 AM

exactly....christianity is THAT funny. time to go kill the adulterers

the ignorance you have amazes me....i hope you dont approach your car with the same mindset

Ocelot

07-14-2009, 11:13 AM

I drink wine, the priest tells me it's the blood of Christ. nom nom nom
here is another thing I do not understand. My wife's father is a preacher, I heard him talk about "if i pick up a squirt gun and pull the rigger and a bullet comes out and kills someone, I am guilty of murder by law, but God would forgive me: I did not know it would kill them I only thought to get them wet. however: if i pull the trigger on a real gun and water comes out and the person gets wet then by law i am free to go but in God's eyes I am a murderer, since I thought it would kill them."

now... if drinking blood is an abomination to God... wouldn't drinking a substitute be just as heinous? you are drinking it because it symbolizes his blood. therefore: drinking blood.

yojimbo

07-14-2009, 12:12 PM

Second, we have to identify specifically what you want to discuss. and stick to it. Posts are long because there are too many varied topics. We can discuss evolution, but it will get us nowhere and it really doesn't even fall in the same philosophical and sociological plan as the christian faith so that is too complicated. We could discuss science in general as it relates to the christian faith. Anything specific.

evolution isn't that complicated -- one only really needs to know what it is, and yes i do know what it is but we can discuss about something else.

let's see... we could discuss about the probability of God actually existing or,
the chances of existence being formed by chance -- or in your case by God... both would challenge both of our knowledge since it'll be about things that we both are educated on and could possibly teach us a thing or two...

Lastly, I will be respectful to you in discussion as long as you are respectful to me. If we can't have a respectful discussion back and forward then neither of us benefit and we are wasting each others time.

gotcha

... before we start gimme a chance to go back and reply to the posts you posted yesterday k.
I won't put too much effort into em but i'd just like to post up my thought on them. i'll start with this one:

You need to look up Steven Jay Gould and learn something about it before you want to argue it....BTW...just so you know, there are many versions of evolution as well but NONE of them relate to Cosmology, or Ontology. So where does this validate any sort of evolution vs Creationism debate.

the examples that i've been giving are just a taste of the possibility of evolution being taken into consideration as fact.
there are tons of animals today that show signs of it but like i have been saying we cannot see evolution --- it's impossible because it takes millions of years for a creature to truly adapt and change into a more advance one...

really i mean this isn't pokemon where pokemon evolve after gaining enough fighting experience.

http://i27.tinypic.com/11u8g2c.jpg

... tadpoles changing into frogs is a very strange transformation...
is starts as one thing and changes dramatically.

Creationism focuses on the catalyst of life, evolution focuses on the process of life. Please, connect the dots for me because I know for a fact that the Bible only give ONE specific with regards to the process of creation and that is that men come from the dust of the earth. (Abiogenesis. Life from non-life)

you're right... evolution is the process of life -- life evolving into a more complex and advance substance. the bible speaks of adam being created by dust well that just doesn;t seem plausible because dust doesn't contain dna, organ-signs or cells that give a human the ability to grow and mature.
it's not a living thing...

if you take a woman's fertilized egg and implant a grain of dust what will happen? nothing that's what.

You wanna talk Biology bring it, but you better be ready to go back further than evolution because I have studied evolution and I know that the philosophical answers on life are NOT met by evolutionary theory. That is what people mean when they say it is not proven, they are saying that the process is not proven to have been the origin of life and rightly so because it does not account for the origins of life.

when you take 4 billion years into account the possibilities of you evolving are great... life and living things do not remain the same -- things change -- time changes -- conditions change -- all of the changes that occur affect a beings survival instinct and forces it to adapt and CHANGE.

if you're so familier with biology you should know that microorganisms have existed since the earth was created -- they are the building blocks to life. good or bad they provide life, they, were the first signs of life on earth NOT adam or eve.
tell me... do you think the earth is an organisms? i think that it is. although hard to comprehend it's existence - I don't see why earth couldn't be a living organism, since everything in the cosmos has a birth and death sequence...

sometimes I feel that homosapiens aren't that homo after all...
by this i mean the latin term for wise or smart. compared to less complicated organisms -- we're the only animals that give a fuck about any of this.

why?

There are STILL Apes too!!! Why are there still apes? You don't know a damn thing about evolution do you? I am a christian who believes that evolution is partially true, but i know that you don't know a damn thing about it and what it speaks about our existence.

what a silly question, sport. did it ever occur to you that chimps, apes, gorillas ect. evolved from other forms of primates??
haha, i know more about evolution than you think dude... i think that before you make comments like this you should first check your posts out -- they contain major flaws aswell... clearly signs that you have other issues besides a low IQ lol jk.

But I am sure you have already done this because you talked about the adaptation and breeding of Dogs, which is NOT evolution.

i know this... but take the wolf and the dog into consideration.
the wolf although very simlier to your common dog is very different -- it evolved into it what it is today which is a hunter. it lives in harsh enviornments...

the lion, tiger, snow lion... they are changing too. give em a million years and they'll be totally different.

Also, atheists and agnostics have been around for a long time. This is not a new movement.

i know but NOW they are coming out and really expressing how they feel.
instead of completly ignoring religious conversations -- times have changed and eventually they'll have anti-religion movements(some have already done a few).

what i see is a future battle between the church(religion.. doesn't matter which one) and them

There is a NEO-atheistic movement going on, but it is just the same thing with a different coat, but you didn't know that did you...you know why? because you ignore the very evidence of things in history that people would present to you.

haha believe it or not i do know.. kinda stupid imo.
personally, i couldn't possibly care less who believes in God or not. it doesn't affect me one single bit what someone believes or doesn't believe.
they have a right to think whatever they want and im all for it... i don't really like to categorize myself as an atheist because, well, that's a very bold statement nor do i like to consider myself an agnostic because that's pretty much saying that im too much of a bitch to make up my mind.

i don't really have an argument to be honest...
other than, of course, pointing out that yours sucks ballz. lol and thats the truth

nobody has ever committed genocide for the sake of spreading the gospel of nothing, therefore no atheist inquisition has ever happened,
nor will ever happen, because they don't give a shit...

The true sign of a fool is one who claims to have knowledge yet refused to do what is necessary to acquire the things required for understanding..

I never said that nor do i think it.

What tells you that God ENJOYS the suffering of men? I have never seen this in the Bible either, nor have I heard it from anyone except atheistic fundamentalists who have to force themselves to ignore parts of the Bible to even come close to making this statement.

ok, check this out...

http://i26.tinypic.com/6qi9h1.jpg

this baby boy was born with two functioning heads in bangladesh on august 25th of last year.
now here's that all-consuming question once again:

did the embryo suffer a major mutation in the genes which control the number of heads/spines/organs?

OR...

was God just in an ornery and sadistic mood?

i choose the first.

if it's the second, our lord and savior needs to lay off the LSD...

What causes the suffering of men?

What would make you say that the Bible has morals and guidelines to a better way of life, when it is very clear that we are to follow the same God that you claim enjoys to watch us suffer?

the bible speaks of morals 'n shit... and if the bible is the word of god then that means god put em there to guide people into being good -- which isn't really necessary since you don't need it to be a good person... i am a good friend, brother, son and not once did i ever get changed by the words from the bible.

why does it affect certain people but not others?

don't get me wrong though...
i know exactly how you feel and what you're saying... I keep trying to explain religion to this guy but he just don't fucking listen.

http://i27.tinypic.com/24pcj7c.jpg

What morals come from the Bible?

do you really want me to answer this??!!

Does the Bible say that God leaves his chilrden?

... if this weren't true than why do i think the way that i do?
am i not his child?

why have i removed myself from him -- since i was 10? did i get mad at him? no... i just don't believe. he left all his black kids in africa to suffer.
he made noah save all his pets from the great flood... man, god is a lazy soggyfuck.

What makes you think this country is Big into religion?

"in god we trust"

nuff said.

If you believe in God, and you partially act as though you don't completely doubt his existence, then how would you define him and how is it accurate?

here's the thing - i can't define him.
if he is god we can't imagine him. he'd be that great that i couldn't even begin to start making up his figure or how long is hair would be
somethings should just be left alone.

... maybe then one could find peace... search for yourself before you go searching for a deity.

geoff

07-14-2009, 12:47 PM

yojimbo you make some very strong arguements i have to give you that. especially the ones on evolution. you agreed in your above statements that evolution is a process of life. please explain to me then where that life originated. evolution doesnt explain that. you also stated that the earth is a living organism and that microorganisms have existed since the begining. please explain to me how those microorganisms became mountains, trees, grass, water, humans, animals, ect...all from the same microoganisms? and its not a possibility for an almighty all powerful God to make man from dust? i as a christian do believe in some form of evolution and i do believe in natural selection. i believe God gave all creatures the instinct to survive and adapt. hence natural selection. i believe to say that a big bang and evolution created everything and that the possibility of God doing it being imposible is a very close-minded and elementary way of thinking. i believe that God and science ( some form of evolution and adaptation) can co-exist. i believe in both. science alone falls short on explaining where everthing came from and i believe thats where God comes in.

as far as you saying that God enjoys suffering...no where in the bible does it state this. somethings happen cuz of outside influences( chemicals, environment, ect).

and you made a very strong point for my side of the debate...
ere's the thing - i can't define him. if he is god we can't imagine him. he'd be that great that i couldn't even begin to start making up his figure or how long is hair would be somethings should just be left alone.

why do people try to put God into their understanding? how can we mere humans try to comprehend something so awesome? He is above our explanation and understanding.

geoff

07-14-2009, 12:55 PM

here is another thing I do not understand. My wife's father is a preacher, I heard him talk about "if i pick up a squirt gun and pull the rigger and a bullet comes out and kills someone, I am guilty of murder by law, but God would forgive me: I did not know it would kill them I only thought to get them wet. however: if i pull the trigger on a real gun and water comes out and the person gets wet then by law i am free to go but in God's eyes I am a murderer, since I thought it would kill them." now... if drinking blood is an abomination to God... wouldn't drinking a substitute be just as heinous? you are drinking it because it symbolizes his blood. therefore: drinking blood. __________________

i dont understand how your story of murder fits with drinking blood :thinking: . but Jesus said to eat of his "body" and drink of his "blood" as a symbol. doing this means you accept Christs broken body (bread) and his holy blood (wine, juice, ect) as a sacrifice for your sins and you accept Him. Drinking blood is an abomination...nowhere did Jesus command them to literally drink His blood and eat His flesh. its called symbolism. the people that did actually eat flesh and drink blood used it as a pagan cerimony to worship false gods. That is why God said it was an abomination because we are to worship and obey the ONE TRUE GOD not lifeless false idols. :goodjob:

yojimbo

07-14-2009, 01:27 PM

why do people try to put God into their understanding? how can we mere humans try to comprehend something so awesome? He is above our explanation and understanding.

... exactly. for what? people should just focus on being good and call it a day.
but noooo the church wants to create an image and go by that

which is probably not even what god would look like.
for real i mean someone who could snap his fingers and create a new planet wears some old clothes and has long hair and resembles a human-being? yea right.. if i were to picture him he'd be some crazy lookin ball of light...
and speak to you through some strange alien type of way --- possibly telekinesis(not sure what you would actually call it) or something.

oh... and i'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow. I gotz to bounce

zimabog

07-14-2009, 02:23 PM

btstone

07-14-2009, 02:26 PM

So if there comes a point in history when everything people ever wanted to know becomes known and every action of nature becomes explainable. What place is there for a god?

i dont know if that will ever happen

Buttons

07-14-2009, 02:38 PM

Do people still worship the sun, moon, and wind?

Most likely not.

One can say that god is just what they can't explain or don't know.

When a lightning storm comes do people say "oh its just water molecules rubbing against each other producing massive amounts of static electricity until it finally shoots to a ground source." or do they say "its zeus being mad."

So if there comes a point in history when everything people ever wanted to know becomes known and every action of nature becomes explainable. What place is there for a god?

there are actually couple of religion and beliefs that people have that they worship the sun, moon, wind, earth, fire, water, etc... Some even worship gods & goddesses.

there is more than just Christianity & agnostic/atheism. if you believe in roman /greek culture, you could say zeus is mad and throwing lightning bolts. people probably have never seen these people or i mean higher beings, but they believe because a bunch of people have made drawings, statues, writings, etc. that is the same as what happened with Christianity. You just need a following to help people believe.

geoff

07-14-2009, 02:50 PM

first off...God has no image. He came down as flesh(human form) as Jesus Christ. second..we wont get to the point that we can explain everything. the way things are going on in the world these days we will surely wipe ourselves out or Jesus will come back. either way humanity is in its last days whether you believe that God will come and judge us or since we are all messed up we kill ourselves off through nuclear war. and to buttons....

christianity was not born cuz of statues drawings ect...there is historical proof from non christian believers who wrote of Him and His miracles here are a few exaples.

Cornelius Tacitus,Flavius Josephus,Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, and Lucian. there are also numerous writings from jewish historians and philosophers that wrote about Jesus the man and the miracles He did but from a non believer point. there is no arguing that a man named Jesus was born and started a ministry and performed great things and preached and was crucified and that christianity was founded by Him. its faith that He was God in flesh and the same God of the jews that christians believe.

Buttons

07-14-2009, 03:06 PM

geoff

07-14-2009, 03:15 PM

these were greek/roman and jewish writers that didnt believe the teachings of Jesus. they thought he was a demon himself and used witchcraft or they just said He was a good teacher of good morals. they had no reason to write about Him but to give an account of history. with your way of thinking buttons how do you know that george washington was real? how do you know any historical figure( licoln, julius ceasar, ect...) or any other person before tv, radio, internet, pictures were invented were real? you know because credible historians and philosophers wrote about these people. here let me try your mind frame. i believe that humans came around 200 years ago because thats the only physical proof we have of them. if i can see a picture of the person or a video than i know they were real. in that case i dont know if my great great great great grandfather was real because i never met him in person and i dont have any pictures of him. :thinking: hmmmmmmmm.....you make alot of sense!!!!! :lmfao:

ARH1192

07-14-2009, 03:19 PM

I dont know about you guys but I can not wait to get to heaven and get my flying horse. I dont know why we cant have a cars are planes or why we can not fly ourselves. but we got smelly flying horses at least.

haha god = joke.

People believe in god like children believe in Santa. One day you gotta grow up and realize you are on your own.

Buttons

07-14-2009, 03:31 PM

geoff

07-14-2009, 04:01 PM

zimabog

07-14-2009, 04:11 PM

i know that knowing everything is impossible, its a just a rhetorical question to get you to see that we tend to call the unknown as a god.

The reason Christmas is on Dec 25 is because so many other religions have special holidays nearing the same day as well. It has nothing to do with divinity. It has to do with the winter solstice. The winter solstice has the longest night, therefore after that the days gradually get longer. It is a "birth of the sun" event that many many religions of history have stories to accommodate it.

geoff

07-14-2009, 04:29 PM

you know what i have heard nothing but bashing on God and christianity. i have a couple questions for you all that dont believe that there is a God and for those that believe there is something but its not God.

1- why is it so farfetched and impossible for there to be a God that created everything and cares for us?

2-why is evolution the right explanation and the only one? why cant God (intelligent design and creationism) coexist with science?

3-what if all of you are wrong? what if there is a God you will one day have to answer to? what then?

if me and every other christian out there are wrong and anyone who believes in God is wrong then at worst we lived a pure life not being selfish and loving others and then we just die. if your wrong then thats a whole different story now isnt it?

sport_122

07-14-2009, 04:51 PM

So if there comes a point in history when everything people ever wanted to know becomes known and every action of nature becomes explainable. What place is there for a god?

Thats actually part of the problem with placing too many eggs on science...it is a process of observation and even in our understanding of things we typically only end up with more questions.

For instance: how does a car work.
well it has an engine...combustion...carbon...fuel...man foot on the pedal... but then you start going from one question to hundreds. So we do not see the number of questions declining in science we see them multiplying. Many of them we think we will be able to answer, but many of them we KNOW we will NOT be able to answers...like the exact age of the earth, or the exact age of the universe. The only reason science can give account for these things now is because there used to be an understanding the SCIENCE IS NOT EXACT because everything cannot be reduced to numbers.

another example is the numerous versions of evolution and different theories that people have on that. Some say its specific selection, some say it is adaptation, some say its random mutation...and more...but it is NOT exact and the different schools of thought are all continuing their studies with their own beliefs in the foundation...this will most certainly yeild different results.

Yojimbo...WHAT THE CRAP?:eek: Thats going to take half an hour to read!

but i did catch this
the bible speaks of adam being created by dust well that just doesn;t seem plausible because dust doesn't contain dna, organ-signs or cells that give a human the ability to grow and mature.
it's not a living thing...

Abiogenesis is being worked on in a lab right now. They have gotten as far as amino acids,(which are the building blocks of life). It is in a process that is much like the early stages of the evolutionary argument as of the middle of the 1900's. I will let you look it up.

when you take 4 billion years into account the possibilities of you evolving are great... life and living things do not remain the same -- things change -- time changes -- conditions change -- all of the changes that occur affect a beings survival instinct and forces it to adapt and CHANGE.

if you're so familier with biology you should know that microorganisms have existed since the earth was created -- they are the building blocks to life. good or bad they provide life, they, were the first signs of life on earth NOT adam or eve.
tell me... do you think the earth is an organisms? i think that it is. although hard to comprehend it's existence - I don't see why earth couldn't be a living organism, since everything in the cosmos has a birth and death sequence...

sometimes I feel that homosapiens aren't that homo after all...
by this i mean the latin term for wise or smart. compared to less complicated organisms -- we're the only animals that give a fuck about any of this.

why?

I don't necessarily doubt evolution, I am just going to error on the side of caution because I realize that if we are to understand science we have to realize that even now our understanding of evolution or the processes of life are limited.

The earth cannot be a living organism based on the human definition of life. But you are trying to get philosophical. In doing so you are making another point of mine.

Your question of
we're the only animals that give a fuck about any of this.

why? can only be answered philosophically and philosophically our universe had a singular origin, the logic we use cannot be defined by evolution, and our moral code has to be defined by something other than our individual chemical processes.

This is one of the big points that I make...science is good, but it cannot function without the knowledge and understanding of history, philosophy, and some understanding of culture because all these things blend together.

The reason I believe we are the only ones that care is because we are wired to, something inside of us says that we are responsible, and you are coming extremely close to arguing a point in Genesis where God gives man the responsibility of taking care of this world.;)...but that is philosophical and not scientific, and the question you asked cannot be answered with science because it is not numerical. Philosophy pics up where science and history cannot fill in the gaps. Religious faith should be based off of a compilation of all of these things and then some.

zimabog

07-14-2009, 05:30 PM

1- why is it so farfetched and impossible for there to be a God that created everything and cares for us?

"So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end, it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator? (pp. 156 - 157 of Brief History of Time)" - Stephen Hawking

"Perhaps the world is not made. Perhaps nothing is made. Perhaps it simply is, has been, will always be there. A clock without a craftsman." - Dr. Manhattan

It is possible for there to be a creator. But as I say again: In the scope of everything, we are nothing. We are simply a complex chain of carbon and amino acids. We are no different in chemical structure than other animals. The same thing that happens when a plant, ant, or cockroach dies also happens to us. A god, if exists, whether a deity or pantheistic, must obey the laws of the universe. That means acceleration MUST ALWAYS be dv/dt; that is the derivative of velocity with respect to time. Conservation laws ALWAYS APPLY. And heat energy ALWAYS goes from an area of higher heat to an area of lower heat. Such as you can't extract heat from an icecube to heat up your coffee. Impossible.

A god entity can't change the rules of physics. So hoping that a god entity cares for you by saving your life in a car crash, giving you a 100% on a quiz, or by allowing you to live a little bit longer when you have AIDS or cancer... impossible.

A heaven or hell is impossible to exist. According to evolution, humans evolved from lower level life forms. Such as walking fish, a rodent looking thing, even single celled organisms. Even a sperm is a single cell, and it has life, it swims. A plant, a single cell organism, or even a sperm or an egg cell. Those things don't have brains. How can you judge something on wrong and right when it doesn't even have a brain? A walking fish, an rodent, a cockroach. All these things are animals such as us. Those creatures do not have the ability to be judged according to the way we think we are judged by a god entity.
We are a continuation of the lineages of such creatures. So how can a heaven or hell exist back a billion years ago? Can you judge a single celled organism or simple sea plankton on being right or wrong? No.

2-why is evolution the right explanation and the only one? why cant God (intelligent design and creationism) coexist with science?

If are are refering to something like 'intelligent evolution' which is what a lot of people believe, then I would respond with the question: Why?
Why would a god entity make the primates of the genus Pan seperate into Common Chimpanze (who live specifically north of the Congo River) and the very very tiny bit different Bonobo (who live specifically south of the Congo River)? And what would the purpose of having differnent Finch bird phenotypes on each of the islands of the Galapogos? If there was a god driven evolution, you would think it would make it so girls don't have to shave and men to not have nipples.

3-what if all of you are wrong? what if there is a God you will one day have to answer to? what then?
Then it will say "You lived your life, congratulations. Now have a cooke."

if me and every other christian out there are wrong and anyone who believes in God is wrong then at worst we lived a pure life not being selfish and loving others and then we just die. if your wrong then thats a whole different story now isnt it?

nope, because atheists can "live a pure life and not be selfish and love others". If a a god is that narsocisstic and egotistic to not allow people who lived a good life to get into a heaven... then fine. I don't like living with narsocisstic egotistic assholes anyway.

zimabog

07-14-2009, 05:33 PM

Thats actually part of the problem with placing too many eggs on science...it is a process of observation and even in our understanding of things we typically only end up with more questions.

Your response actually backed up my statement. Thank you.

geoff

07-14-2009, 05:52 PM

we are the only ones with a conscience and morals and the ability to logically think hence we are the only ones that will be judged. and if a creator created the universe, the laws, and everything else then the creator Himself is not subject to those laws. He is above them since He had the ability to create them. and i was not refering to "intelligent evolution". God spoke everything into existence. what you see around today is the result of natural selection where only the strong survived and the weak species died off. as far as why an athiest wouldnt get to heaven even tho you lived a good life...because the creator God is holy without blemish. He created us to be the same but we failed. so He gave us a list of how to live life so we can be Holy thru Him...its called the bible. The creator God also created us to worship Him. when you dont worship Him and believe Him and live your life according to His word and accept Him as the Lord of your life then you are denying Him and He will deny you. good works are nothing compared to Gods holiness. and they are not enough to get you to eternal life. if the bible was just a book on being a good human then works alone could save you. but thats not the case. we are ALL sinners and the wagers of sin is death (hell). its only through the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross and through His Holy blood that we have grace. in a time not too far away God will reveal Himself to all. the book of revelations is playing out as i am typing this and the world will see that it is going to change. every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. you put too much of a limitation on God and believe only what you hear instead of using your own mind and searching yourself for the truth. you say christians are brainwashed but i beg to differ. i say you all are the ones following a set plan set by men to keep you in control like good pets and do as they will. free your self with the only thing or only one that can truly give you freedom. May the name of the God of the christians and the only saving name under heaven and earth be praised forever Jesus Christ!!! God bless

zimabog

07-14-2009, 06:28 PM

geoff, have you ever heard of the mirror test?
There are other creatures out there who have the ability to solve problems and think, and can even pass the mirror test.

the book of revelations is playing out as i am typing this
How so?

and believe only what you hear instead of using your own mind and searching yourself for the truth
I didn't just hear it, I have 'used my own mind' and found these things to be true. Its quite hypocritical and ironic you said such a thing.

i say you all are the ones following a set plan set by men to keep you in control like good pets and do as they will.
So you say scientists and researchers have a secret plan to control us all?
I was pretty sure it was the powerful bankers who were doing that.

Please try this experiment on the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which has to do with entropy. Take an icecube and place it next to something warm. Does the icecube stay the same temprature? Does the icecube get colder?
No. That rule can not change ever. Thank you scientist Rudolf Clausius for showing this. You can try this experiment while praying that the heat from the icecube (yes an icecube does have some heat energy) will flow to the warmer object.

geoff

07-14-2009, 06:42 PM

no other creature has the ability to logically think. yes you can teach pets tricks and monkeys how to problem solve but in the end they are still irrational beasts. and the book of revelations is playing out by the wars, famine, lack of morals in the world, a one world religion, a one world government, a mark(verichip is the first step) false preaching of the gospel, wide spread of knowlege and technology, falling away of believers, murder, greed, envy, the list goes on. the greatest trick the devil did was to convince mankind that God doesnt exist. the people these days are being brought up to believe what the people in power tell them too so when they take over there will not be a fight. the bible talks of this aswell. we are a society that no longer has morals and believes we can do whatever we want. we are cattle being controlled by the elect few that run this world. the bible also speaks of this.

please explain how the 2nd law of thermodynamcs has anything to do with my God.

Incontt

07-14-2009, 06:42 PM

the ignorance you have amazes me....i hope you dont approach your car with the same mindset

MINE IS RUNNING AND WILL DRAG YOURS. god must love me more than you. its all in gods plan though.

I built my own car because I have the intelligence and skill to do so. You can't say the same.

oh yea..41000 children died todaY from hunger....yay god.

geoff

07-14-2009, 06:44 PM

that is not Gods fault. that is the cause of those in power in those countries that are selfish and ignore the people. dont blame God for the cruelty of humanity.

Incontt

07-14-2009, 06:54 PM

that is not Gods fault. that is the cause of those in power in those countries that are selfish and ignore the people. dont blame God for the cruelty of humanity.

not his fault but he could prevent it. more excuses for a supposedly all powerful all knowing god. what does letting 41000 kids a day starve to death accomplish.

Incontt

07-14-2009, 07:03 PM

yeehaw

Buttons

07-14-2009, 07:09 PM

Why do i feel like kicking infants after reading these posts?

Buttons

07-14-2009, 07:11 PM

17 orphans lost their foster parents to robbers... where does GOD fit in there?

zimabog

07-14-2009, 07:47 PM

no other creature has the ability to logically think. yes you can teach pets tricks and monkeys how to problem solve but in the end they are still irrational beasts.

You are wrong. And I know that even if i show you a bunch of evidence, you will dismiss it.

So how are we the chosen species and not Homo Erectus?

And the 2nd Law of Thermodyamics is a law that can not be broken.

geoff

07-14-2009, 07:59 PM

zimabog

07-14-2009, 08:06 PM

why would He want to change the laws He created. and as far as the suffering in the world its caused by men not God. He doesnt step in to prevent it cuz its the evil in men that do this and He doesnt punish these people cuz of grace. just know that these children are going to a better place with no suffering and no pain.

So you agree that your god can not perform miracles?
Because that's what a miracle is... a breach of the laws of nature.

"He doesnt step in to prevent it cuz its the evil in men that do this and He doesnt punish these people cuz of grace."

So your saying your god is not benevolent? And you are saying that the evil men are people of grace?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2369/2541860177_be46d5b78d.jpg

Incontt

07-14-2009, 08:40 PM

lol...they are in a better place? no they are dead...done. They suffered from starvation while god watches his ant farm? it so funny to read this stuff. Its like watching kids defend santa as being real.
post above me is spot on.

Buttons

07-14-2009, 08:47 PM

Incontt

07-14-2009, 08:50 PM

well i THINK he isnt real....he is nicer than god though. he cant stop the murder and crime against the kids but he will bring all the good ones a toy. Not the promise of a pie in the sky but actually brings the toys every year

geoff

07-14-2009, 09:03 PM

God doesnt need to change laws of nature to perform a miracle because He put those laws there for a reason. my aunt in law died in an accident when she was young. actually it was at the hospital but the accident caused it. the doctors pronounced her dead and wrote up her death certificate. about an hour went by and her father was there in the morgue praying when she came back to life. she has no brain damage nothing is wrong with her. she now has a birth certificate and death certificate. thats a miracle. as far as suffering in the world goes. each one of us will stand before God on judgement day these people that cause the suffering will be punishedEvil, pain and suffering are a part of life. God didn't promise us that we wouldn't have to endure these things, but He did promise to be there with us and strengthen us through them. We grow spiritually when we are faced with these things and find joy when we overcome them. Through our weakness we are made strong

_Christian_

07-14-2009, 10:02 PM

Who told you the universe was infinite? And in what sense? This could be an interesting discussion.

NASA's satellite, the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe, observed the radiation emitted from the universe over a year. It revealed that 73% of the universe is dark energy which not only expands, but accelerates in expansion. This shows that the expansion of the universe has not slowed, become static, or begun retracting.

true also about logically sound arguments, just remember it works both ways. I'd also add that the problem is that some people think natural sciences hold weight on their own.
Science isn't the answer to everything, but I think natural selection holds it's weight better than anything else for the development of mankind.

IF they did we wouldn't NEED philosophy, psychology or the social sciences. Its the philosophical edge that always poke holes in the atheistic view point in the end.
I think they can coexist just fine without religion.

Philosophically we will never be able to measure ideas or concepts. Logic, Love, rationalization, emotions are not described by evolution theories and they cannot be accounted for.
The human brain is still mysterious in many regards. I don't think because something intangible can't be measured, it suggests a greater being. I feel that the aforementioned were necessary in our ancestors at some point for survival.

If you boil it down to biology then you have a hard time trying to add validity to science because all of our logic become nothing more than a chemical reaction. and if that is proven then atheism, religious faith, murder, lawlessness, love, anger, are all the same and cannot be condemned or applauded because there is NO reason or Logic.
Yes they are all chemical reactions in the brain but are different chemical reactions within the brain, even through the scope of biology. Feelings and emotions are better left for the social sciences though.

Scientific findings are nothing anymore. That is a much harder realization for me and it is philosophy, history, and psychology that point a strong finger at evidence for God, and of course there is a ridiculous disconnect between the world view so nobody listens to anybody and everybody is right.
Why are scientific findings nothing anymore? I think philosophy and psychology are subjective enough to point in either direction depending on the person. History can be argued either way too.

yojimbo you make some very strong arguements i have to give you that. especially the ones on evolution. you agreed in your above statements that evolution is a process of life. please explain to me then where that life originated. evolution doesnt explain that. you also stated that the earth is a living organism and that microorganisms have existed since the begining. please explain to me how those microorganisms became mountains, trees, grass, water, humans, animals, ect...all from the same microoganisms? and its not a possibility for an almighty all powerful God to make man from dust?
I'm not sure you understand just how slow the process of evolution is. I suppose a pink unicorn defecating rainbow sherbet is also a possibility, just highly unlikely.

i as a christian do believe in some form of evolution and i do believe in natural selection. i believe God gave all creatures the instinct to survive and adapt. hence natural selection. i believe to say that a big bang and evolution created everything and that the possibility of God doing it being imposible is a very close-minded and elementary way of thinking. i believe that God and science ( some form of evolution and adaptation) can co-exist. i believe in both. science alone falls short on explaining where everthing came from and i believe thats where God comes in.
Why would God need his creatures to adapt? Can he not create them perfectly from the start. Do you believe science could ever disprove God? If science can't explain something it has to be the workings of a divine creator? I wish people could just accept that they don't know some answers rather than explain them with magic.

why do people try to put God into their understanding? how can we mere humans try to comprehend something so awesome? He is above our explanation and understanding.
Sooo...Don't question religion because it's beyond our understanding? I could've sworn religion was man made.

That is why God said it was an abomination because we are to worship and obey the ONE TRUE GOD not lifeless false idols. :goodjob:
People of other religions are just as sure they have the "ONE TRUE GOD." If you were born in Pakistan, would you worship Jesus and Yahweh or Mohammad and Allah?

i have no problem with what other people believe. i have given bilbical, scientific, and historical evidence that there was an intelligent designer. video below for more evidence. what proof is there of other religions being true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl9fOrXqDXk&feature=PlayList&p=22A8E900011C695B&index=37&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

That in no way proves God's existence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq9pOWfwZ4g&feature=PlayList&p=22A8E900011C695B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36
i would also like you to explain something....how did gravity evolve?
The Irreducible Complexity assumes that there were no usable intermediaries. Wings should be considered irreducibly complex. It can be easily demonstrated that a half a wing could serve a purpose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrlhrbUxiMs
Man made structures can be irreducibly complex. A free standing arch is a solid yet irreducibly complex structure, yet at the time it was built there was a scaffolding. During evolution compenents may have been removed from their ancestors. The bacterial flagellar motor is believed to have evolved form Type Three Secretory System. Shared components can be seen in both.

you know what i have heard nothing but bashing on God and christianity. i have a couple questions for you all that dont believe that there is a God and for those that believe there is something but its not God.

1- why is it so farfetched and impossible for there to be a God that created everything and cares for us?

2-why is evolution the right explanation and the only one? why cant God (intelligent design and creationism) coexist with science?

3-what if all of you are wrong? what if there is a God you will one day have to answer to? what then?

if me and every other christian out there are wrong and anyone who believes in God is wrong then at worst we lived a pure life not being selfish and loving others and then we just die. if your wrong then thats a whole different story now isnt it?

1. Lack of evidence. Scale of the cosmos. Lack of evidence. Probability. God himself would have to be more complex than his creations, right? Using him to explain unknowns only creates questions of greater complexity. Doing such will only result in infinite regress.

2. Again, evidence and probability. It's hard for them to coexist because you have to pick and choose beliefs from each since they are so contradictory.

3. I believe what I believe. I'm not going to buy into religion out of fear. If I had to answer to God, I'd rather say, "Sorry, there just wasn't enough evidence for me to believe." than "I just went along with Christianity as an insurance plan." He'll know who's genuine if he's really omniscient.

our moral code has to be defined by something other than our individual chemical processes.

Religion is not the source of morals!!! You pick and choose morals from religion. If not, you would be out killing those who don't observe the sabbath.

the greatest trick the devil did was to convince mankind that God doesnt exist.
So convincing had to take place for mankind to disbelieve? Or was it convincing that took place for mankind to believe? So the devil just went around convincing people not to believe? Wouldn't his presence help affirm God's existence?

the people these days are being brought up to believe what the people in power tell them too so when they take over there will not be a fight. the bible talks of this aswell. we are a society that no longer has morals and believes we can do whatever we want. we are cattle being controlled by the elect few that run this world. the bible also speaks of this.

It's almost impossible for a nonbeliever to be elected to any public office.

Incontt

07-14-2009, 11:18 PM

geoff

07-15-2009, 08:29 AM

i tell you what...if i had never searched for God myself and found Him to be real then i would have been convinced by your guys' arguements. in the end it comes down to this...science will never be able to prove or disprove God with enough evidence to convince anyone. thats why its based on faith. i have faith that my God exists cuz i have had experiences with Him that i cant explain and have had my prayers answered many times. i dont have the strongest relationship with Him cuz i dont do what im supposed to but i have enough right now to know that He is real.

sport_122

07-15-2009, 10:11 AM

i agree with this:

That brings to mind the Stephen Roberts quote:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Just in the context of dismissing all other mythology, but failing to apply the same reasoning to their own belief.

Do you realize that mythology is nowhere near the same thing as the christian faith. Jesus was not a myth. Even if men are worshiping Christ with wrong intent then it cannot be considered mythology because he has been historically experienced and evidence shows that he lived, died and resurrected. But you shouldn't even go there unless you are really willing to at least hear and try to understand the evidence. Even before its presented you give the perception that you are just waiting to dismiss it.

I have heard Dawkins and Hitchens use that quote as well. The major problem with it is that Richard Dawkins also says "we are somehow genetically wired to believe" In other words even this atheist biologist says that no matter how he looks at it, historically and scientifically the observations show that human beings are somehow wired to believe something. and he admits he cant explain that but because he is an atheist before he is a scientist he dismisses this anyway he can to support his book sales. Philosophy of science says that is a demonstration to us that we need to be looking at something greater to explain who and what we are because at the point that we have gone through so many evolutionary chains, and we are not shaking our ability to believe and this could easily be described if we understand that we have our existence on more than one plane.(in fact it can be argued that atheism strengthens the arguments made by believers) that

Also, to some of the people out there professing to be atheists, I think you are demonstrating what is called a denial of evidence or observational selection. Just so you know this is what the church did to bring itself into the dark ages and the inquisition...they ignored the evidence presented by some who said "Jesus, the Bible, and our very existence says this is wrong" basically anything that would tell you that you need to revisit your thought process is ignored, explain away, or mocked as if it has no place with you. So how are you better than them, because you dont have religion...but you do, atheism is your point of faith, its your world view, and everything that you learn about life is passing through this world view and you have faith that this world view is better because you have in a sense made yourself the authority or the god. I tell you now that historically this is mindset that has represented the MOST dangerous and destructive times in our histroy. When some men have denied God to the point were they have said that they are god. This has always been the first step toward cleansing and genocide.

It is never going to make your case and whenever you talk to people who have actually studied and gone through this. You have nothing because science does NOT say there is no God. History says there is one, we just have to learn to identify him, philosophy says their is one, we just have to learn to comprehend him, sociology says their is one, we just have to learn to live up to the standards that he has given us, science says there could be one, but we don't have the type of evidence required for study to prove it or in what plane he exists. Epistemology says there is one, we just don't know how he is keeping all this together....and so on. the only time you find someone who is absolutely positive that their is no God is when you find someone who ignores all of the other areas of study to focus on scientific principles that don't even say there is no God. Even the way Dawkins describes evolution is detailed in that he gives the process intention, he gives it reasoning and not randomization, if he is right that is more evidence that our universe is guided and working toward something.

But it is most disturbing that so many people could sit and act as if they have been awakened and the product was that they are so smart that they do not even need to take the texts or evidence seriously. That is a sign of the times, and I would be really careful about that because when cultures start ignoring those things that are historically at their foundation, those cultures start dying and really evil men start killing people. this is proven in history time and time again.

geoff

07-15-2009, 10:42 AM

+1000000000000000000000000 sport

sport_122

07-15-2009, 11:59 AM

NASA's satellite, the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe, observed the radiation emitted from the universe over a year. It revealed that 73% of the universe is dark energy which not only expands, but accelerates in expansion. This shows that the expansion of the universe has not slowed, become static, or begun retracting.

This is actually my point. The expansion will lead to the death of the universe. Planets will die out as starts darken because everything separates. Its much like the aftermath of a big explosion. The explosion is over when the dust settles and everything has run its coarse.

Science isn't the answer to everything, but I think natural selection holds it's weight better than anything else for the development of mankind.

I'm not arguing human development. Origins and development are not the same thing.

The human brain is still mysterious in many regards. I don't think because something intangible can't be measured, it suggests a greater being. I feel that the aforementioned were necessary in our ancestors at some point for survival.

The non ability to measure it means that it will NOT fall into the realm of scientific study. So are we to ignore it because we cannot get numbers on it. Because that is what some do with regards to UFO's. We can't test what they are, we cant touch or feel them and we can't take eyewitness testimony from tens of thousands of people, so we just have to say nothing is happening and the people are imagining things or...it was a weather balloon. That is fine for the scientist to say its untestable, but it should end there. If it is untestable then theories should not be created. And also as I said in a previous post...even Dawkins says that he can't explain that which is in us that makes us believe...but he believes its there, he just doesn't believe that it matters towards WHAT we believe in.

Yes they are all chemical reactions in the brain but are different chemical reactions within the brain, even through the scope of biology. Feelings and emotions are better left for the social sciences though.

Why are scientific findings nothing anymore? I think philosophy and psychology are subjective enough to point in either direction depending on the person. History can be argued either way too.

If its brain chemistry then it is not real. Those things we associate to brain chemistry are typically considered to be those things of which our human mind propagates for us to function. If logic and reasoning are chemical reaction and nothing more then all things that we have used in the past as logic and reasoning are invalid because we do not base science on emotion or that which is changing.

And just as we cannot measure emotions we could not measure logic, therefore ALL of our science would have to be understood in emotional-type constraints to be universally valid.

For instance, if you cried during a movie, and I didn't who did the right thing? There is no basis to call evidence conclusive and there is no base to give credit to anything because what controls our learning and our survival is chemical reactions. What says that your chemical reactions are better than mine? What is the standard?

You see there is a HUGE problem is logic and reasoning do not exist outside of us.

1. Lack of evidence. Scale of the cosmos. Lack of evidence. Probability. God himself would have to be more complex than his creations, right? Using him to explain unknowns only creates questions of greater complexity. Doing such will only result in infinite regress.

2. Again, evidence and probability. It's hard for them to coexist because you have to pick and choose beliefs from each since they are so contradictory.

1. Science explains things and creates greater complexity. For every solution or observation we get more questions of why than the one we started with. Knowledge for us is no going from the outside in, its going from the inside out. To do that we should expect that our questions increase as our understanding of things increases. ex. We would have never asked about cellular reproduction had we never seen the cell, we would have never gained questions about DNA, had we not studied genetics and evolution. all answers are leading to more questions. and my world view has an answer for this. Knowledge is eternal. The answers are already there, we just have to discover them.

2. It is only hard for science and faith to exist when you want to deny God. Apart from that denial they fit fine. You do not have to pick one or the other. In fact, they are two separate fields of study for the most part. Science is the how, and faith is the reason. Evolution could easily be a process used by God, the Bible does NOT say that it didn't happen so we cannot assume that they are in disagreement. It is only the agenda based christian or atheist who trys to draw an incompatible conclusion. That is false.

Religion is not the source of morals!!! You pick and choose morals from religion. If not, you would be out killing those who don't observe the sabbath.

I never said religion was. Religion is manmade and controlled and you are right that we pick and choose our morals from religions, but our foundation of morals that religion uses come from somewhere else. Which is why just about every religion shares some of the same morals. Because they are more based in men than they are in our outside world. This is why an atheist can be moralstic and understand right and wrong, but have no religion. Because you are a product of God and he created us all the same and those things in which he placed in our DNA are all things that make us alike and we can deny them yet they are still there.

Even before men had our religious faiths, we had an understanding of not killing, not stealing etc etc. Even before we observed and understood (not completely still) the laws of gravity, it has been in existence.

The entire cosmos has demonstrated a functional law that we have to assume has always been. This law is related to us in that if it were not so, we don't believe that we nor our planet could have existed. The moral law supersedes us in some way. IF we did not have it we would have already erraticated ourselves for the preservation of self. And when men came down from the hilltops to form societies they did not have to ask one another if killing each other was wrong. They already knew.

Now atheism plays a really tough role here. There is an attempt to maintain the moral principles that can only have validity outside of our own understanding (or our own chemical processes), while denying that they could have come from an intelligent eternal source. This argument never sits well with me because without that source which is justice, or law, then our morals are make believe. There is no such thing as obligation, rights or anything because there is not law and no justice.

So no I do NOT say that morals come from religion, I do say that our morals supercede us and that they are founded in something we do now understand that has to demonstrate consistency, justice, and then grace (less we be erraticated for our failure to maintain the moral standard)

zimabog

07-15-2009, 12:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaAdXdkiifM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8

geoff

07-15-2009, 12:40 PM

this guy is an idiot. plain and simple.

Ocelot

07-15-2009, 12:51 PM

i have no problem with what other people believe. i have given bilbical, scientific, and historical evidence that there was an intelligent designer. video below for more evidence. what proof is there of other religions being true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl9fOrXqDXk&feature=PlayList&p=22A8E900011C695B&index=37&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq9pOWfwZ4g&feature=PlayList&p=22A8E900011C695B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=36
i would also like you to explain something....how did gravity evolve?

gravity doesn't evolve, it is not a form of life... gravity exists due to massive congregations of molecules in a vacuum. you can observe a similar effect with bubbles and water... bubbles will tend to float together and form clusters

zimabog

07-15-2009, 01:40 PM

this guy is an idiot. plain and simple.

its satire.

geoff

07-15-2009, 02:08 PM

yes i know. guys i believe in Jesus Christ and you guys dont. i respect that. plain in simple no side will win. so you guys keep searching and believing what you do and i will do the same

Incontt

07-15-2009, 05:08 PM

41000 more kids died today...yaay god...you are so merciful.

sport_122

07-15-2009, 08:00 PM

41000 more kids died today...yaay god...you are so merciful.

thanks for demonstrating my point.

Incontt

07-15-2009, 09:17 PM

no prob...come back tomorrow and god will have sat on his hands while another 41000 of his children starved to death. i guess the christians here are just special and god answers their prayers...

yojimbo

07-16-2009, 09:18 AM

yojimbo

07-16-2009, 09:22 AM

why doesn't the stupid link work?

ehh fuck it...

The 29 Saddest Pictures In The World

Humans are best creations; they are most intelligent in all existing species on the earth. With this intelligence they ruled the world and destroyed it too. Here are the 29 pictures which tell our sad past.

9/11 Attack:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8952/001dkg.jpg

In the morning September 11, 2001, two hijacked passenger jets crashed into the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York City. This was no accident, but rather a series of attacks done by suicide bombers engaged with the Al-Qaeda terrorist group.

The attacks killed all the passengers on board the hijacked planes, and took away 2,974 innocent lives at the World Trade Center. More than 90 countries lost citizens in the attack, and the stock market was closed for a week.

Abu Ghraib:

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/3761/002hxo.jpg

Beginning in 2004, accounts of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse, including torture, rape, sodomy, and homicide of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) came to public attention. These acts were committed by personnel of the 372nd Military Police Company of the United States Army together with additional US governmental agencies.

An Afghan Refugee Child Hides From a Dust Storm:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6133/003bmz.jpg

Bhopal India - Methyl Isocyanate Spill:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5728/004fxh.jpg

More than 40 tons of methyl isocyanate spilled from a Union Carbide-owned pesticide factory in Bhopal, India, in 1984, killing more than 20,000 people in the world’s worst chemical disaster.

After the spill, these skulls were researched, presumably for the specific effects the gas had on the brain, at the nearby Hamidia Hospital. The chemical injured not only the people who inhaled it, but also nearby animals (at least 2,000 of them) and trees, whose leaves went yellow and fell off within days.

Twenty-five years later, with people still claiming injury from the disaster yet little corrective action having been taken, the government of India has called for a study into the long-term effects of the spill.

Biafra:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6274/005zyl.jpg

When the Igbos of eastern Nigeria declared themselves independent in 1967, Nigeria blockaded their fledgling country-Biafra. In three years of war, more than one million people died, mainly of hunger. In famine, children who lack protein often get the disease kwashiorkor, which causes their muscles to waste away and their bellies to protrude.

Boston Fire:

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6862/006umm.jpg

On July 22, 1975, Stanley J. Forman was working in the newsroom of the Boston Herald American newspaper when a police scanner picked up an emergency: “Fire on Marlborough Street!” Forman rushed to the scene, where multiple fire crews were battling an intense blaze. There was a distress call for a ladder team to the rear of the building to help a stranded woman and child. Forman followed.

Buchenwald Camp:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5980/007vti.jpg

In 1937, the Nazis constructed Buchenwald concentration camp, near Weimar, Germany. Placed over the camp's main entrance gate, was the slogan Jedem das Seine (literally "to each his own", but figuratively "everyone gets what he deserves"). The Nazis used Buchenwald until the camp's liberation in 1945. From 1945 to 1950, the Soviet Union used the occupied camp as an NKVD special camp for Nazis and other Germans. On 6 January 1950, the Soviets handed over Buchenwald to the East German Ministry of Internal Affairs.

The SS left behind accounts of the number of prisoners and people coming to and leaving the camp, categorizing those leaving them by release, transfer, or death. These accounts are one of the sources of estimates for the number of deaths in Buchenwald. According to SS documents, 33,462 died in Buchenwald. These documents were not, however, necessarily accurate: Among those executed before 1944 many were listed as "transferred to the Gestapo". Furthermore, from 1941 forward Soviet POWs were executed in mass killings. Arriving prisoners selected for execution were not entered into the camp register and therefore were not among the 33,462 dead listed in SS documents.

Burial Of an Unknown Child:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6341/008vae.jpg

Burial of an unknown child. This picture shows the world’s worst industrial disaster, caused by the US multinational chemical company, Union Carbide.

Burning Monk:

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6342/009hbq.jpg

As a protest to the This Monk slow and unreliable reforms in Vietnam, the Buddhist monks have resorted to immolation, such as this Mahayana Buddhist monk, He burned himself alive across the outskirts of Saigon, mainly because of the harshness done by the South Vietnam government to his fellow Buddhist monks.

He was re-cremated after he burned himself; his heart meanwhile remained in one piece, and because of this he was regarded as a Bodhisattva by the other Buddhist monks and followers. His act of self-immolation increased the pressure on the Diệm administration to implement their reform laws in South Vietnam.

Bushmeat:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3906/010zhm.jpg

Animals from primates to snakes are valuable commodities in the thriving, albeit illegal, worldwide trade of bushmeat, defined as wildlife killed either by commercial or subsistence hunters. With one million tons of bushmeat taken from African forests every year, the already endangered gorilla population—a primary victim of the trade—is in dire straits.

This photo shows a gorilla family in southeast Cameroon (minus the alpha male silverback, who managed to get away) that had been slaughtered in their nests by a bushmeat hunter early one morning.

Execution Of a Viet Cong Guerrilla:

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1521/011hji.jpg

This picture was shot by Eddie Adams who won the Pulitzer prize with it. The picture shows Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s national police chief executing a prisoner who was said to be a Viet Cong captain. Once again the public opinion was turned against the war.

Hector Pieterson:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3091/012evo.jpg

Hector Pieterson an icon of 1976 Soweto uprising in apartheid South Africa. Dying Hector being carried by a fellow student. He was killed at the age of 12 when the police opened fire on protesting students. For years, June 16 stood as a symbol of resistance to the brutality of the apartheid government. Today, it is known as National Youth Day — a day on which South Africans honour young people and bring attention to their needs.

Last Jew Of Vinnitsa:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9602/013rav.jpg

Picture from an Einsatzgruppen soldier’s personal album, labelled on the back as “Last Jew of Vinnitsa, it shows a member of Einsatzgruppe D is just about to shoot a Jewish man kneeling before a filled mass grave in Vinnitsa, Ukraine, in 1941. All 28,000 Jews from Vinnitsa and its surrounding areas were massacred at the time.

Lynching Of Young Blacks:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2240/014rqs.jpg

This is a famous picture, taken in 1930, showing the young black men accused of raping a Caucasian woman and killing her boyfriend, hanged by a mob of 10,000 white men. The mob took them by force from the county jail house. Another black man was left behind and ended up being saved from lynching. Even if lynching photos were designed to boost white supremacy, the tortured bodies and grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting many.

Nagasaki Hiroshima Masroon Clouds:

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/2725/015t.jpg

This is the picture of the “mushroom cloud” showing the enormous quantity of energy. The first atomic bomb was released on August 6 in Hiroshima (Japan) and killed about 80,000 people. On August 9 another bomb was released above Nagasaki. The effects of the second bomb were even more devastating - 150,000 people were killed or injured. But the powerful wind, the extremely high temperature and radiation caused enormous long term damage.

Napalm Girl:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/464/016lst.jpg

The photo shows Phan Thi Kim Phúc (a Vietnamese-Canadian) at about age nine running naked on the street after being severely burned on her back by a South Vietnamese napalm attack.

Nile Perch in Lake:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3272/017fth.jpg

One of the 100 most invasive species in the world the Nile perch was introduced to East Africa's Lake Victoria in the 1950s, and has wreaked environmental havoc ever since. It’s illegal to possess or sell in some parts of the world, and is thought to have caused the extinction or endangering of hundreds of native species in Lake Victoria.

After the fish eliminated much of the algae-eating population, the lake became choked with algae. The perch has also increased local demand for firewood, because their higher fat content drives people to smoke them rather than dry them. Adult perch can grow to weigh more than 440 pounds, and are fierce predators that feed on insects, crustaceans, and other fish—even those of its own species.

Pictured here are dead Nile perch on a butcher table waiting for transport to local markets.

Nilgunyalcin Child Vulture:

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8863/018e.jpg

Sudanese child being stalked by a vulture nearby. It is quite obvious that the child was starving to death, while the vulture was patiently waiting for the toddler to die so he can have a good meal.

Nobody knows what happened to the child, who crawled his way to a United Nations food camp. Photographer Kevin Carter won a Pulitzer Prize for this shocking picture, but he eventually committed suicide three months after he took the shot.

Palestine Father Saving Son:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/411/019ljs.jpg

Images from the video footage of 12-year-old Muhammad al-Durrah being shot dead in the Gaza Strip. The scene was filmed by a France 2 cameraman.

Palestinian Refugees:

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4166/020mhq.jpg

World Press Photo of the Year: 1976 Françoise Demulder, France, Gamma. Beirut, Lebanon, January 1976. Palestinian refugees in the district La Quarantaine. About the image She was the first woman to win the World Press Photo, and did so on the 20th anniversary of the award. Demulder stated at the time that she hated war, but felt compelled to document how it’s always the innocent who suffer, while the powerful get richer and richer.

Palm Oil Deforestation:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4165/021xmk.jpg

Indonesia is home to the world’s third largest tropical forest, but it’s disappearing quickly. Though often illegal, the forests are cut down both for a booming pulp and paper industry as well as to clear land for oil palm plantations, which supply diverse industries from biofuel to soap to cosmetics.

Because of deforestation, Indonesia is also the world’s third largest greenhouse gas contributor, behind only the U.S. and China; after the forest is cut down, the carbon normally sequestered in the peatland soil is no longer shielded from being released into the atmosphere.

Pollution and Power Lines:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1323/022yukjvh.jpg

China’s economy has exploded in recent years; so has its pollution problem, leaving no aspect of the country's environment unaffected. Solid waste often lacks proper disposal, waterways have been polluted, and the air quality has plummeted, largely due to the coal-fired power plants that serve as the country's primary source of energy.

Environmental degradation has gotten so bad that the Chinese government, which doesn’t easily take—or allow—criticism, has admitted that birth defects in the country have increased as a direct result of it, particularly in coal-producing regions like the north, where this picture was taken.

Second Largest Oil Spill Ever:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5470/023v.jpg

The Ixtoc I exploratory well suffered a blowout on June 3, 1979, in Mexico’s Bay of Campeche, 600 miles south of Texas. The well was not brought under control until the next year, by which time 140 million gallons had spilled into the bay. The only larger spill occurred during the 1991 Gulf War, when Iraq dumped—deliberately—up to 462 million gallons of oil into the Persian Gulf.

Segregated water Fountains:

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/669/024g.jpg

A segregated water fountain with a vastly larger and more desirable fountain for whites, and a small fountain for minorities.

Sludge Kingston Tennessee:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9021/025rci.jpg

More than 1 billion gallons of toxic sludge were released into a Tennessee community when a dam collapsed last December, causing a massive coal-ash spill at the Kingston Fossil Plant, a coal-burning power plant owned by the Tennessee Valley Authority.

Coal ash is known to contain dangerous elements including arsenic, lead, and selenium, yet the TVA refused at first to issue any health warnings about contamination from the spill. The agency, which weeks later admitted prior leak problems at the plant, also refused initially to declare as uninhabitable the houses in the area, like the one pictured here, that were physically relocated by all the sludge.

Starving Boy:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7167/026knj.jpg

World Press Photo of the Year: 1980 Mike Wells, United Kingdom. Karamoja district, Uganda, April 1980. Starving boy and a missionary. About the image Wells felt indignant that the same publication that sat on his picture for five months without publishing it, while people were dying, entered it into a competition. He was embarrassed to win as he never entered the competition himself, and was against winning prizes with pictures of people starving to death.

The American Bison:

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4568/027n.jpg

A product of U.S. Army-sanctioned mass slaughter of American bison in the 1800s, these bison skulls are waiting to be ground for fertilizer, most likely in the American midwest. The slaughter was so "effective" that the population of bison in the U.S. is estimated to have dropped from around 60 million in 1800 to as few as 750 in 1890.

Tsunami Dead Bodies:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8585/028baa.jpg

The Boxing Day Tsunami that struck Thailand in 2004 caused approximately 350,000 deaths and many more injuries.

View of Floods:

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5734/029g.jpg

An aerial view of floods caused by Tropical Storm Hanna is seen in Gonaives, Haiti on September 3, 2008. Haiti's civil protection office said 37 of the 90 Hanna-related deaths had occurred in the port city of Gonaives.

btstone

07-16-2009, 09:25 AM

29 saddest pictures in the world (http://www.itvnews.tv/Blog/Blog/saddest-pictures-in-the-world.html)

once you look at how people in other countries live and what they go through you start looking at things totally different.
people in the united states don't experience these kinds of things - which could be a reason why there are a lot of religious people in this country... more so than others. click on the link and you'll see just how cruel life really is.

... it's really sad and pretty fucking pathetic that the majority of those events were man-made.
if there really a god out there why can't he change the nature of society? such nasty creatures we humans are. how could we have been created by such a powerful and peaceful god yet have so many flaws within us?

it is free will. all these people that say we need to believe in ourself are full of it. you just told us that man is not good. we are not peaceful. so why should we depend on ourself when we know we will not do what is right everytime. all of those man-made events that lead to sad societies are usually "God-less" societies. so even if you find God "stupid", our society isnt that bad yet.

yojimbo

07-16-2009, 09:30 AM

geoff

07-16-2009, 10:07 AM

once you look at how people in other countries live and what they go through you start looking at things totally different. people in the united states don't experience these kinds of things - which could be a reason why there are a lot of religious people in this country... more so than others. click on the link and you'll see just how cruel life really is. ... it's really sad and pretty fucking pathetic that the majority of those events were man-made. if there really a god out there why can't he change the nature of society? such nasty creatures we humans are. how could we have been created by such a powerful and peaceful god yet have so many flaws within us?

yojimbo i was looking for scriptures to explain all this. i too was very confused and then i was reading my bible and found this:
"therefore hear this now, you who are given to pleasures, who dwell securely, who say in your heart, i am and there is no one else besides me. i shall now sit as a widow, nor shall i know the loss of children; but these two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day: the loss of children and widowhood. they shall come upon you in their fullness because of the multitude of your sorceries, for the great abundance of your enchantments. for you have trusted in your wickedness; you have said, no one sees me; your WISDOM and your KNOWLEDGE have WARPED you; and you have said in your heart, i am, and there is NO ONE else besides me. therefore evil shall come upon you." isaiah 47:8-11

we have become a godless world. we have turned are back on our hope and help. God is allowing these things to happen cuz mankind is turned to wickedness. like you were saying bro, these are man-made events. mankind is evil and God doesnt change the nature of society because He doesnt force Himself on anyone. He calls us to seek a personal relationship with Him and the truth is that these days people would rather trust in themselves and this is the outcome. and yes God is peaceful and powerful and created us without flaws. there is sin and evil in the world today cuz adam and eve wanted to be like God and brought sin, evil, and death into the world. its funny or not really but ironic more that we as society these days are doing the same exact thing. we have made ourselves gods and rejected our creator. its not fair to these other countries to suffer while we here in the U.S. get to be laid back and care free. but the bible clearly states that we WILL fall and be punished. we have become a wicked nation where nothing is sacred anymore, you cant turn it on disney channel with your children to watch and not see some lesbian 15 year old girl who is pregnant by some guy she doesnt know. we are a society with no moral value anymore and i believe what goes around comes around. God is allowing us to punish ourselves so that we might say enough is enough and change.

geoff

07-16-2009, 10:09 AM

and yojimbo its not the children that sinned and deserve death. its the fathers and leaders of them that have evil in their hearts and do such abominations. it sickens me and i believe that these people should be lined up and shot for their lack of value on life

yojimbo

07-16-2009, 10:13 AM

geoff you're ok in my book

though you're a religious person i can tell i'd get alone with you in real life.

btstone

07-16-2009, 10:13 AM

whoa! did the link work for you? for some reason it aint for me...
i tried to copy and paste it to the post above yours but for some reason it didnt work lol

but sure god gave 'us' free will. i'm sure he didn't anticipate what would happen and how his children would live out there lives. just look at kids that die -- they aren't even old enough to know what religion really is... what sin did they commit that was so great that they had their lives taken away from em?

just admit that your god is an asshole and we'll all be happy..

im not God so there is no reason to try to convince me of what ever it is your are trying to convince. but in the Bible it does say that those with lack the understanding, babies, mentally impaired, do go to heaven. those, such as yourself, that have intelligence and still trun down the word of God suffer a different fate. thats where reading the Bible and not just taking someone els's word for it comes into play

yojimbo

07-16-2009, 10:19 AM

geoff

07-16-2009, 10:24 AM

geoff you're ok in my book though you're a religious person i can tell i'd get alone with you in real life .

i appreciate that bro. i just try to live a caring and loving life. the bible teaches "true" christians to love all and have compassion on all. its sad that alot of them these days dont do that and the bible says they will be judged with the same measure that they judge others. i think i could get along with you too man. im just trying to put a clear image on what God calls christians to be instead of the dirtiness men have made it.

whether you believe in God or not i think we can all agree that man is evil and that we no longer have values and no longer put value on life. and as far as the guy above me commented bstone or whatever. we are not the ones who should judge. God calls us each individually to a relationship. you have no right to say yojimbo is going to hell. i am a firm believer that as long as there is breath in your body there is hope. God bless!!!

geoff

07-16-2009, 10:27 AM

btstone, geoff, sport_122... all three of you have faith. something i don't and sometimes wish i had -- because well, you guys feel something that i havent and me, being a person who always likes to seek new things cannot achive it. why wasn't i not blessed with it? faith must be nice... hopefully someday my view on life and religion will change, but the way the world and society is going something really spectacular has to occur. i won't be posting back and forth anymore because like i said in my first post in this thread "... there really is no point in debating this... you can't change someones belief with words. I came to that realization years ago."

yojimbo out of all the people that i have seen posting in this thread i can tell that you have a compasion and a huge heart. i wasnt blessed with faith. it was hard for me to find it and its harder yet to hold on to it. i pray for you bro that not words from men but God Himself will give you faith that you wish you had. see ya around man.

zimabog

07-16-2009, 12:37 PM

we have become a godless world. we have turned are back on our hope and help. God is allowing these things to happen cuz mankind is turned to wickedness.

So you are saying that godlessness leads to bad things?

But:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Religion_in_the_world.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Percentage_population_undernourished_world_ma p.PNG

compared to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Percentage_population_undernourished_world_ma p.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Religion_in_the_world.PNG

geoff

07-16-2009, 12:54 PM

So you are saying that godlessness leads to bad things?

yes i am saying godlessness leads to bad things. your charts just verify my statements. im not saying those countries believe in God im saying that their godless governments are persecuting the God believing population. as we pointed out before...a godless nation and godless leaders have no morals and no value of life for if they had God then they would place value on these things and have compassion. for Godliness (of the true kind) manifests compassion and reason. lets do a little history lesson...the nazi party was made up of Godless men who were persecuting a people of faith. look back in history and you see that every exodus and genocide had to do with a government that was persecuting the people based on religious issues. man is evil and is selfish. when you have people who have no Godly fear or reverence they think only of themselves and to further their own agendas. whether you believe in God or not it is a fact and safe to say that those people who do have some sort of belief have a code of ethics and morals that they live by and put a high value on life. you have never seen a true christian leader that killed off millions of people because they didnt believe in God. its quite the opposite...REAL believers and those that live their lives ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE do not kill, they go out on missions and give up their own lives to help others and lay down their own lives to further the gospel. (notice i put an emphasis on REAL BELIEVERS, WHO LIVE THEIR LIVES ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE)

zimabog

07-16-2009, 01:49 PM

a godless nation and godless leaders have no morals and no value of life for if they had God then they would place value on these things and have compassion.
None of the African leaders who's countries are red in the hunger map are atheist. Same with Afghanistan and Yemen.

when you have people who have no Godly fear or reverence they think only of themselves and to further their own agendas. whether you believe in God or not it is a fact and safe to say that those people who do have some sort of belief have a code of ethics and morals that they live by and put a high value on life.
So what you are saying is that theism = morals?
Do I have no morals? Would I not give help to a person in need?
What if I only believed in Ares, the Greek god of war? Or Dionysus? The Greek god of wine and ecstasy?
It was the agnostic Einstein who said "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
It was even Thomas Jefferson who said "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
Former Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme said "Human beings will find a balanced situation when they do good things not because God says it, but because they feel like doing them."

So I say that if you need a god to give you moral guidance, then you have a pretty weak and underdeveloped moral sense to begin with.

REAL believers and those that live their lives ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE do not kill
Even the believers IN the bible? Lots of killing in there.
In the bible it says to kill homosexuals.

they go out on missions and give up their own lives to help others and lay down their own lives to further the gospel.
Have you ever wondered why people in Mexico and South America have European features? Its because after colonization [missionaries was a huge part of it] most of the original mesoamerican population died.

And as far as bible interpretation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s

geoff

07-16-2009, 02:54 PM

So what you are saying is that theism = morals? Do I have no morals? Would I not give help to a person in need? What if I only believed in Ares, the Greek god of war? Or Dionysus? The Greek god of wine and ecstasy? It was the agnostic Einstein who said "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." It was even Thomas Jefferson who said "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." Former Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme said "Human beings will find a balanced situation when they do good things not because God says it, but because they feel like doing them." my point is that men are evil, they tend not to do good for others but they do what will profit themselves. Einstein was right...God said the same thing. that we should do good out of the kindness of our hearts not for reward. The "christians" during the time of thomas jefferson were hypocrits, they conducted witch hunts and condemned those that did not believe what they believed...hence my post of "real christians".

Even the believers IN the bible? Lots of killing in there. In the bible it says to kill homosexuals. here is where most people get christianity confused. the part about killing homosexuals was the OLD testament when God gave His laws and people were not under grace but the law. thats when an eye for an eye was acceptable. in the NEW testament after Christ came He taught that we are to "love our enemies and neighbors as ourselves", that means gays, blasphemers,ect...we as christians are no longer under the law but under grace. nowhere and i mean NOWHERE in the new testament does it say that we should kill anyone!!! or hate anyone! this is where the religions of judaism, christianity, and islamic faith differ...they never accepted Jesus as the messiah so they never took His teachings.

Have you ever wondered why people in Mexico and South America have European features? Its because after colonization [missionaries was a huge part of it] most of the original mesoamerican population died. you are wrong yet again. i emphasize this once again...those WERE NOT "true" christians. they used their religion as an excuse to kill and steal.

And as far as bible interpretation: not sure what your trying to prove by this...your actually proving my point. there are few "true" christians out there that actually follow the teachings of Christ. thats why matthew 22:14 says, "many are called but few are chosen" and 1st peter 4:18 says, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" most "christians" these days like to take one verse and live their lives by that but not the rest. man has always tried to take the bible and interpret it how they thought best fit their moods, situation, or circumstances. God has NEVER changed. His word remains the same, men have defiled it with their own views on what and what not to do. i know because of the so called "believers" dont like to practice what they preach that christianity and God have a bad wrap. but there are a few of us out there that take to heart these teachings and apply them to our lives and live the Word of God every day, or at least try to. please dont let the mistakes and falseness of the majority defile the pure purpose of the gospel.

zimabog

07-16-2009, 03:11 PM

Geoff vs Geoff

the part about killing homosexuals was the OLD testament when God gave His laws and people were not under grace but the law. thats when an eye for an eye was acceptable.

God has NEVER changed. His word remains the same, men have defiled it with their own views on what and what not to do.

So what you are technically saying is that the stances god has in the old testament vs the new testament are the same because "God has NEVER changed." Even though you just said the teaching by Jesus in the New Testament are more acceptable. Even though Christians believe that Jesus is the son, yet at the same time is God? So technically you are saying that these 2 very different stances on issues (accept homosexuals vs kill homosexuals) are coming from the same mind?

So if Christians have the feeling that the Old Testament is "not under grace" or something, then how come so many Christians use it as a method to explain their position on homosexuality, laws, creation...?

geoff

07-16-2009, 03:35 PM

ahhh i was hoping you would eventually get to this.
So what you are technically saying is that the stances god has in the old testament vs the new testament are the same because "God has NEVER changed." Even though you just said the teaching by Jesus in the New Testament are more acceptable. Even though Christians believe that Jesus is the son, yet at the same time is God? So technically you are saying that these 2 very different stances on issues (accept homosexuals vs kill homosexuals) are coming from the same mind? So if Christians have the feeling that the Old Testament is "not under grace" or something, then how come so many Christians use it as a method to explain their position on homosexuality, laws, creation...?

thats right God has NEVER changed. the new testament does not make the old testament invalid. the people at the time could not live up to Gods standards, they constantly broke the law and where cleansed only once a year when the high priest would offer a blood sacrifice for the peoples sins. they got so bad though that God destroyed the evil ones in the flood and saved the only few righteous...noah and family. He gave the new testament (grace and mercy) as an easier way for us because we could not live up to the law. and yes Jesus is the son of God and God Himself. He needed a way to show us (humanity) how to live and He needed to provide us with salvation so He came down as Jesus and lived a pure sin free life, taught us the easier dumbed down version so we could live and understand it, and then offered Himself as a pure blood sacrifice for our sins so we could obtain forgiveness always. thats why Jesus said, " none may come to the Father except through Me" john 14:6-9. and Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." acts 4:12. Jesus also said, " I and My Father are ONE" john 10:30. He made the way easier for us.

you say:
So if Christians have the feeling that the Old Testament is "not under grace" or something, then how come so many Christians use it as a method to explain their position on homosexuality, laws, creation... and i say to you the point again that there are few "true" christians. Jesus taught us that we are to love all no matter what, that we are to pray for are enemies and love them, and that HE alone has the right to judge. we are not to embrace the ways of the world ( homosexuality, fornication, theft, ect...) but to embrace the person who does these and teach them of forgiveness and what is needed for them to obtain salvation. as far as the old testament goes...(laws and creation) they offer us a guideline to live by(10 comandments) and give us a history on our ancestors and how the world came about by God( creation ). hope this helps. God bless

zimabog

07-16-2009, 04:01 PM

So basically to sum that up:

People were bad and childish. They could not be good people without strict rules with punishments.
So after a while God said "Fuck it, I'll start over with the good ones. Maybe they can behave."
Then Jesus was sent down and did his thing. The end.

Is that how it went?

I am just trying to get a grasp on the storyline. I was indoctrinated into Christianity like many, just as a little over 1200 years ago my child ancestors were indoctrinated into pagan beliefs. But now later in life I have dropped it.

geoff

07-16-2009, 04:08 PM

here is the break down. people couldnt live up to Gods standards so he destroyed the evil ones and saved the righteous ones so they could start over. He then came down as Jesus to show us how its done, and provide a way for us. we are now back to the same way people were before the flood. thats why He will come down yet again and take the believers and destroy the world again...but this time for good. so yeah you pretty much got it right.

zimabog

07-16-2009, 04:32 PM

So do you believe that a world wide massive flood happened, and that we are all descendants of Noah, and that Jesus actually has the Y-chromosome of a god? And that Noah actually collected 2 of every species, even from the American continent and Australia? Because these seem like essential things in order to fully believe in the rules that god wants you to follow.

I think this is a good quote I found:
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei

So would you say its weird of a god to give us the mental ability to find reasons as to not believe in it?

If you were born in Saudi Arabia, do you think you would eventually become a Christian and believe in Jesus? And if you were born in Saudi Arabia would you fully believe that Muhammed is the only way to heaven? Its the same thing as you being born in America and believing Jesus is the way to heaven.

geoff

07-16-2009, 06:09 PM

So do you believe that a world wide massive flood happened, and that we are all descendants of Noah, and that Jesus actually has the Y-chromosome of a god? And that Noah actually collected 2 of every species, even from the American continent and Australia? Because these seem like essential things in order to fully believe in the rules that god wants you to follow. I think this is a good quote I found: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei im not sure if it meant an entire world wide flood or the ancient hebrew word for world meant land as in surounding land. i dont believe jesus was formed the same way we as people were. i believe God placed Him in marry's womb as He was. and yes God gave us logic its the ideas of man that say that it couldnt of happened when logically it could have.

sport_122

07-16-2009, 06:46 PM

btstone, geoff, sport_122... all three of you have faith.

something i don't and sometimes wish i had -- because well, you guys feel something that i havent and me, being a person who always likes to seek new things cannot achive it. why wasn't i not blessed with it? faith must be nice...

hopefully someday my view on life and religion will change,
but the way the world and society is going something really spectacular has to occur.
i won't be posting back and forth anymore because like i said in my first post in this thread "... there really is no point in debating this... you can't change someones belief with words. I came to that realization years ago."

catch you guys around the board.

++++reps for a straight up guy. I respect a person who can state differences and remain respectful in trying to understand those whom are often hard to understand. Last note to you on this. Faith does NOT and should NOT come blindly. It took me lots of investigation and years of reading and hearing and weeding through the agenda based rhetoric that exists on both sides of this discussion. Best to you yojimbo!

Nateds16

07-16-2009, 08:18 PM

yes i do i would die for what i believe in. say what you want. i turned my life over to god. some will know what im talking about. my life is so much better. i could not ask for more. i dont worry as much bc i know im in gods hands and everything will be okay. you just have to wait and believe and great things happen everyday.

geoff

07-16-2009, 09:03 PM

amen nateds16. reps for you

zimabog

07-17-2009, 08:05 PM

Well, personally, I think anyone who takes the Bible or any other religious book seriously is not of high intelligence. People who just believe in a higher creation sort of power are ok and more rational. But people who look to Jesus for help and the Bible for their inspiration, or who think their god sits in a giant chair with a large beard and will "be personal" with them or something are just as crazy who as people who wear magic underwear and believe a guy named Xenu sent alien souls here in rocket powered Douglas DC-8s.

Read about Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Mithras, Horos, Amon Ra, Greek mythology, ancient Semetic mythology from the Assyrians, Babylonians, Sumerians...ect.
Read stories from the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, very interesting. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh from the ancient Mesopotamian religions, also very interesting. Read about Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda... ect... very interesting.

Many of the religions had major influences onto other religions as well. Quite interesting stories and scriptures too. Don't forget to study the pagan mythology of the people of your ancestors too.
All those religions are all very very interesting and have interesting relations to other religions too.

Learn about other religions and their history.
Then tell me straight up that you still believe in Christianity.

Then take a few biology, chemistry, physics, dynamics, and thermodynamic classes and tell me straight up you still believe in the divinity of modern humans (god's image and we have special dominion from god to rule over other animals), prayer/miracles, and an afterlife.

What makes the Bible any more creditable than the Koran, Torah, Avesta, Rigveda, Pali Canon, the scriptures of Jainism, Taoism, ...ect?

In less than 4 hours it would be Saturday. Now I am going to wake up and do things. If you were a true Bible or Torah follower, you would track me down and kill me for breaking one of the Commandments.

geoff

07-17-2009, 10:10 PM

not gonna even respond to this. i have given more than enough scientific, logical, historical, and spiritual evidence to prove my point. i will just continue praying for you. God bless

SPOOLIN

07-18-2009, 01:08 AM

no prob...come back tomorrow and god will have sat on his hands while another 41000 of his children starved to death. i guess the christians here are just special and god answers their prayers...

yep!

Look...We are never going to know the REAL truth to any of this arguing until someone contacts us from another universe/galaxy/dimension/planet and tells us what the fuck happened here and what caused all of this to be what it is today.

Ever seen "Mission to Mars" ??

Exactly my Point

Ocelot

07-18-2009, 01:29 AM

yep!

Look...We are never going to know the REAL truth to any of this arguing until someone contacts us from another universe/galaxy/dimension/planet and tells us what the fuck happened here and what caused all of this to be what it is today.

Ever seen "Mission to Mars" ??

Exactly my Point

when that happens could you imagine the chaos that would ensue after being told by another civilization that earth is the universes F*** up? its all an accident? man that would be interesting, but then again, if another alien race believes in god and has similar teachings such as the bible, Koran, etc, (after all, the Bible and Koran and other books are pretty much the same exact thing, with the same stories, only due to language barriers the names are changed...) i would say that is proof enough that there is a God. honestly...

geoff

07-18-2009, 09:50 AM

zimabog

07-18-2009, 10:22 AM

I still think that if you guys research other religions you would see the light.
Don't make me post it all in here.

Ocelot

07-18-2009, 11:09 AM

there would still be skeptics that say that those other civilizations are wrong and its just their opinion. even if God Himself came down and slapped these people and had a conversation with them they would still try to write it off as some phenomenon in nature lol
I'm saying for myself, I would believe without a doubt if a civilization from another planet had the same texts as Earth.

I still think that if you guys research other religions you would see the light.
Don't make me post it all in here.
yes, all religions are similar, the books teach the same things, and the stories are all almost exactly alike, the only difference is the names/ language. which is totally understandable, from a logical standpoint. if all religion spawned from one religion, then since not everyone speaks the same language, the wording and names would have to change. unfortunately, people became far too proud of "their" religion and began things such as crusades, inquisitions, and jihads... thinking their religion is the be all end all religion. often seen in die hard Christians stating other religions worship "false Gods" when in reality no one is wrong, they are all the same, just with a language barrier.

to better explain this, go to youtube or google and watch Zeitgeist. sure the guy rags on religion the entire time, but I think the similarities between the religions give them more credit for being possibly true as opposed to discredit them. however this guy does make some good points as well.

sport_122

07-18-2009, 11:21 AM

Learn about other religions and their history.
Then tell me straight up that you still believe in Christianity.

Then take a few biology, chemistry, physics, dynamics, and thermodynamic classes and tell me straight up you still believe in the divinity of modern humans (god's image and we have special dominion from god to rule over other animals), prayer/miracles, and an afterlife.

What makes the Bible any more creditable than the Koran, Torah, Avesta, Rigveda, Pali Canon, the scriptures of Jainism, Taoism, ...ect?

i minored in Studies of Religion and I believe more than ever. There is more evidence to support Biblical accuracies than most people are willing to accept. Of course there is some overlap between other faiths. What that should tell you at least is that somehow people are tapping into this stuff without having it crammed down their throats from another culture or religion because it is somehow inside of us ALL. The thing about the Christian God is always going to come back to Jesus. Jesus' death and resurrection was proof of His claims. No other religion places a physical, historically proven, representative of their faith on this planet. There are MANY books about this that site very good reasons to believe it. There are many atheists that say that even the explosion of the Christian church immediately following his death is evidence that there was something going on with Jesus that made him a believable person in history, in that if he had not risen (he had been seen by hundreds of people after he was placed in a tomb) then people (especially jews) would have immediately dismissed him and his teachings as he made the claim that he would rise again. And there is huge significance to this. but of course the atheist reduces it to some sort of trick or misunderstanding of events.

My point is that its often not because there is no evidence, its more because your personal world view has been influenced and shaped in ways that make you think that it is not possible, therefore every piece of evidence you gather or that is laid before you will be denied or viewed with skepticism. Nobody can prove anything to someone who doesn't have an open mind to hear it or who refuses to believe. Even those people that say..."if God would ...." then I would believe...no they wouldn't.

Then take a few biology, chemistry, physics, dynamics, and thermodynamic classes and tell me straight up you still believe in the divinity of modern humans (god's image and we have special dominion from god to rule over other animals), prayer/miracles, and an afterlife.

This was my first major for three years. Biology, chemistry and physics. Aced them all and they do not say anything that contradicts anything of faith. You need to realize that the Bible does not give science lessons or research results in order to provide review. To assume that any of the sciences disproves anything in scripture is false. You can feel free to list what in science disproves what in scripture...and please site the scripture and site it as it is written, not as someone has interpreted it.

All the 6000 year old stuff, and the evolution stuff, none of that is discussed in the bible, so how could you say the Bible has presented a stance on it? I ask this quesiton to believers as well.

There are studies on the afterlife there are many books written on this and you obviously have NOT read any of them. (Dr. Gary Schwartz-Afterlife studies. You can read his stuff) Miracles cannot be defined scientifically as they would only be described as things that happen outside of the laws of nature. This means they are not testable and repeatable therefore science ignores them. Its a lose lose situation for anyone claiming a miracle. The scientist says prove it, but by definition the miracle cannot be proven to have happened a certain way so science ignores it (much like they do the UFO phenomenon)...whats that about?

In less than 4 hours it would be Saturday. Now I am going to wake up and do things. If you were a true Bible or Torah follower, you would track me down and kill me for breaking one of the Commandments.

this statement shows me that you really have not taken a serious look into asking what the Christian believes. This is far from the truth of their faith. In fact I would bet that you think all muslims are terrorists, all buddhists are monks, and all Jewish people have black hats and curly hair.

As stated before the codes of Leviticus and the 10 commandments are not the same. In the face of your obvious ignorance and lack of concern to accuracy I won't even explain it again. Just know this, you are completely inaccurate on your views of the Christian faith as it pertains to morality, justice, grace, and the God centered world view.

Not too many people view God as a giant man sitting on a giant golden throne in a kingly suit of armor. That is the mental configuration of a society who has taught themselves to associate all things with that of war and physical stature.

Finally,
you claim to have studied all of these religions, but the way you are completely misrepresenting and misquoting the Bible and the foundations of Christianity and Judaism, I doubt you. Even if you have I couldn't take you seriously on anything you would say about them as you have proven yourself to be inaccurate in many statements. Just remember that it is one thing to study it so that you know and you are accurate in what believers believe and it is another thing to believe it. Right now you are not doing either and when anyone who (believer or not) has studied and really researched the origins and history of the Christian faith reads your comments you sound extremely uniformed.

I still think that if you guys research other religions you would see the light.
Don't make me post it all in here.

as i just said. I don't believe you are accurate at all about Christianity which is all around you as a southern american, why would I think you are going to be factually accurate about any other faith/religion which is a minority and mostly hidden from the public eye? Your inaccuracies kill your own validity in this conversation.

Personally I thought you were doing okay when you were just asking questions and saying you didn't really agree.

Ocelot

07-18-2009, 12:16 PM

no other religion has a physical, historically proven representative of their faith? really? what about Horus of Egypt? Krishna of Hindu? I guess they don't count

Buttons

07-18-2009, 12:26 PM

no other religion has a physical, historically proven representative of their faith? really? what about Horus of Egypt? Krishna of Hindu? I guess they don't count

of course they don't count, it's not their religion... :rolleyes:

Ocelot

07-18-2009, 02:57 PM

of course they don't count, it's not their religion... :rolleyes:oh right... my bad :(

zimabog

07-18-2009, 05:31 PM

Buddha was a REAL existing person. Going to worship him now?

Jesus, Krishna, Horus...
They are just avatars of their god. Vishnu has 10 avatars that supposedly come to earth as different forms.

Ocelot and geoff, i wish you understood what I was saying. I said you should research other religions to see how Christianity is just another religion. Just as some people might step out of a class that teaches ancient mythology or some other religion and say "Wow those guys are retarded for believing that stuff, now lets go home to get ready for Church to praise the Lord Jesus!"
See the irony?

I will respond to that wall of text after I eat dinner, but another thing to say before I go off. There were many many many "Oh hi, I'm the Messiah" people back in ancient Israel in the time of suspected Jesus.

zimabog

07-18-2009, 08:02 PM

No other religion places a physical, historically proven, representative of their faith on this planet.
Buddha was a real proven guy, what about Mohammad? Wasn't he real too? It is said that Zoroaster was a real person. L Ron Hubbard of course existed as well. Also:
"born Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Nuri (Persian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language): میرزا حسینعلی نوری), was the founder of the Bahá'í Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith). He claimed to be the prophetic fulfilment of Bábism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1bism), a 19th-century outgrowth of Shí‘ism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam), but in a broader sense claimed to be a messenger from God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_of_God)" He said he was a messangar of God and he actually did exist for real because he was born in 1817.

Now the oldest religion still practiced today in the world... Hinduism, claims that Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu was born in 3228 BC.

Don't forget Mani:
Mani (c. 210–276 AD) was the founder of Manichaeism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism), an ancient gnostic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic) religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion) that was once widespread but is now extinct.According to biographical accounts by al-Biruni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Biruni), preserved in the tenth century encyclopedia the Fihrist of Ibn al-Nadim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Nadim), Mani received a revelation in his youth from a spirit whom he later called the Syzygos or Twin, who taught him the divine truths of the religion.In his mid-twenties, Mani decided that salvation is possible through education, self-denial, vegetarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism), fasting and chastity. Mani claimed to be the Paraclete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraclete) promised in the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament), the Last Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Prophet) or Seal of the Prophets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_Prophets).Mani presented himself as a savior and an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Don't worry, there are more too.

My point is that its often not because there is no evidence, its more because your personal world view has been influenced and shaped in ways that make you think that it is not possible, therefore every piece of evidence you gather or that is laid before you will be denied or viewed with skepticism. Nobody can prove anything to someone who doesn't have an open mind to hear it or who refuses to believe. Even those people that say..."if God would ...." then I would believe...no they wouldn't.
Jesus could have existed, he could have not existed. I don't care. But what I do know is that you can not multiply fish or loaves of bread by praying. I do know that it is impossible for a human to have a virgin birth.

This was my first major for three years. Biology, chemistry and physics. You had 3 majors?

Aced them all and they do not say anything that contradicts anything of faith.
If you really did learn about valance electrons, X and Y chromosomes, conversation of matter and energy, forces... Then you should have figured out that praying does nothing since miracles can not happen (even though today something as simple as a very underweight and premature crack baby living is called a miracle even though the baby is most likely going to end up retarded), that virgin birth is impossible. And that only what can happen does happen. To have Jesus to turn water into wine, extra atoms and molecules would have to have appeared out of thin air into that water... Impossible.

To assume that any of the sciences disproves anything in scripture is false. You can feel free to list what in science disproves what in scripture...and please site the scripture and site it as it is written, not as someone has interpreted it.
Ok.

Mat 21:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Mat&c=21&v=1&t=NKJV#) "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

They should have figured out that was bullshit long ago.
Name something in scripture and I will see if I can disprove it.

All the 6000 year old stuff, and the evolution stuff, none of that is discussed in the bible, so how could you say the Bible has presented a stance on it? I ask this quesiton to believers as well.
Well I didnt say anything about the 6000 years. People get that by adding up the genelogies of the characters in the Bible. But even though it it not directy discussed in the Bible, evolution is highly against it because the Bible provides its own story of human and animal creation. With God specifically creating a homo sapein out of dirt with that being the first hominid ever, a female homo sapein out of Adam's rib and specifically creating land and air animals.

There are studies on the afterlife there are many books written on this and you obviously have NOT read any of them.
Why would I want to waste my time with those?

In fact I would bet that you think all muslims are terrorists, all buddhists are monks, and all Jewish people have black hats and curly hair. I am friends with muslims, my coworker is muslim. They are not terrorists. The section of Jihad is mainly described as an internal struggle with one's self. Not external war. In fact I plan to be traveling through Central Asia after I graduate. No not all Buddists are monks, just like your not a Christian monk. And the curly hair comment. It is proven that most people who claim Jewish heritage have genetics that can be traced back to the Levent and Middle East. Most Jews come from Israel/Levent, and it can be proven genetically. That is why Jewish can also be declared a genetic ethnicity and a religion. Many people do it on the census in many countries.

As stated before the codes of Leviticus and the 10 commandments are not the same. In the face of your obvious ignorance and lack of concern to accuracy I won't even explain it again. Just know this, you are completely inaccurate on your views of the Christian faith as it pertains to morality, justice, grace, and the God centered world view.
In response to that I say that you are completely ignorant to the non-believing view as it pertains to morality, justice, stuff...

Not too many people view God as a giant man sitting on a giant golden throne in a kingly suit of armor. That is the mental configuration of a society who has taught themselves to associate all things with that of war and physical stature.
Then how come people say "man was created in God's image"?
You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

Finally,
you claim to have studied all of these religions, but the way you are completely misrepresenting and misquoting the Bible and the foundations of Christianity and Judaism, I doubt you.

I was mainly using text taken from your own posts. And stuff that I did take from the Bible was pretty clear. Copy/Paste doesn't misquote.

as i just said. I don't believe you are accurate at all about Christianity which is all around you as a southern american, why would I think you are going to be factually accurate about any other faith/religion which is a minority and mostly hidden from the public eye? Your inaccuracies kill your own validity in this conversation.
I am not a "southern american". I was not born in this region and I do not plan to stay in this region. Since I currently do not have a job I spend most of my time watching travel documentaries that deal deeply with local culture and local people, presented by local people.

Magnus213

07-18-2009, 11:29 PM

I do not.

zimabog

07-19-2009, 01:53 AM

ok geoff i saw a video wherea guy explains why the harsh laws in the bible dont apply and it was something along the lines that jesus died as ultimate sacrifice for us so the liviticus laws don't apply.

I still think that's pretty nuts though.

Buttons

07-19-2009, 03:55 AM

I do not.

is it because you believe in physics? lol :)

Incontt

07-19-2009, 10:56 AM

more dead babies today. cant imagine watching these kids starve to death every day. god musta been a retard kid in a family of 5. look how fucked up the world is and to think it was designed by a supposedly all knowing all powerful being.
Just saw this on discovery-hd:
if the earth were a speck/grain/piece of sand...all the planets/stars/galaxies in the known universe add up to more than EVERY speck of sand on every beach on earth. think about that for a second. yeah we arent a special project of gods....we are just a probable statistic

Ocelot

07-19-2009, 05:44 PM

Ocelot and geoff, i wish you understood what I was saying. I said you should research other religions to see how Christianity is just another religion. Just as some people might step out of a class that teaches ancient mythology or some other religion and say "Wow those guys are retarded for believing that stuff, now lets go home to get ready for Church to praise the Lord Jesus!"
See the irony?
i fully and completely see and understand the irony, I laugh at it constantly. I believe you have me confused with another poster, as I never stated what religion or even if i do believe in a or many God(s). I have looked at other religions, how else would i know about Egypt and all? :tongue1:

zimabog

07-19-2009, 05:55 PM

i fully and completely see and understand the irony, I laugh at it constantly. I believe you have me confused with another poster, as I never stated what religion or even if i do believe in a or many God(s). I have looked at other religions, how else would i know about Egypt and all? :tongue1:

sorry, must have typed your name instead of sport or whatever.

Ocelot

07-19-2009, 06:59 PM

it's all good.

Maniacc

07-20-2009, 09:52 AM

Some of the people in this thread are so wrong it's sad.

And I'm not talking about the religous people - they're on point with everything that they said. Here's a little story. The other day I had a dream - a dream that I went to heave and talked to Jesus our Lord and Savior, and when I woke up I had a message from him embedded in my mind. This is what he had to say...

So here in heaven, far away from listening to you idiots, let me make a couple things crystal clear, ok?

Its getting to where a savior cant even take a serious dump anymore without one of you undignified cretins crying about something. I mean, come on.
You know how much fiber I eat? The bread of life? You think just because I can walk on water I can just make those gas pains dissapear?

And you, the evangelist who says I turned water into grape juice instead of wine, lemme give your children a mild case of cancer, ok? You think god doesnt need to tie one on once in awhile? You know how much bitching I hear on a secondly basis? And man, how much I just want to forget? You fools think Helen Keller had it rough, shit, lemme get that for a couple centries, a large order of fries, and see how you whining, crying children are afterwards.

So, for all you clowns looking for foregiveness, yeah, yeah, yeah...

These are the exact words that he said. In my dream we had a nice chat and afterwards I've come to love Jesus. Haha, he's actually a really kewl dude once you get to know him. Though I wouldn't want to get on his bad side - one day you might wake up with a 6 inch dick instead of a nose if you do.

What I realized is that even though people create churches for him and make music he really doesn't care about that. I mean think about it, guys. What did he get for dying for our sins? We write songs about him? Shit, they write songs about anyone now a days. See what I am saying? You think any of that money you guys put in collection plates goes to him? Sorry, but there are no bank accounts in heaven.

Also, in my dream Jesus and I were getting drunk and smoking pot it was awesome! We then snorted some righteous coke off the chest of Anna Nicole after we gave her an extreme Heavenly makeover. Convert people. Heaven is out of this world! Can't wait til I really get there.

Ocelot

07-20-2009, 10:58 AM

cocaine is a hell of a drug

onebadgt

07-20-2009, 11:03 AM

wow! im not even gonna start in here. gl with all of your beliefs and prayers are with u

Ocelot

07-20-2009, 11:30 AM

lol even one bad GT wont touch that version of Christ, gotta admit though, I'm with him on that one.

d993s

08-01-2009, 03:23 PM

I believe in pussy. And I do so because I can see it, touch it, fuck it, cum inside it, piss on it, etc. Therefore, I could even logically worship it, because it is proven to exist.

geoff

08-01-2009, 03:48 PM

once again your posts are a waste of time.

d993s

08-01-2009, 03:52 PM

once again your posts are a waste of time.

How so? At least they're somewhat humorous and don't have retarded attributes attached as a means of worshipping non-existent beings.

geoff

08-01-2009, 05:08 PM

you my friend have alot of maturing and growing up to do. you sound like a 9th grader telling jokes at a all boy gay sleep over

d993s

08-01-2009, 07:17 PM

you my friend have alot of maturing and growing up to do. you sound like a 9th grader telling jokes at a all boy gay sleep over

I'm not sure what brought on those gay fantasies of yours, must be all that belief in god. :rolleyes:

geoff

08-06-2009, 08:14 PM

zimabog

08-06-2009, 11:14 PM

we need more gay people... too many people reproducing on this planet

bu villain

08-07-2009, 04:10 PM

no it would be all the pictures of homosexual activities you have posted and the comments you have made. they speak for themselves. apparently you dont like the idea of God cuz homosexuality is an abomination to Him and that just doesnt sit right with you. so how long till you come out of the closet?

I know if I were an all powerful being, a master of the universe, I would be really concerned with whether or not two girls were kissing.

DieselNuts

08-07-2009, 04:37 PM

I believe there is a God that created the things in the universe, but I've got mixed emotions about religion

d993s

08-09-2009, 03:19 PM

no it would be all the pictures of homosexual activities you have posted and the comments you have made. they speak for themselves. apparently you dont like the idea of God cuz homosexuality is an abomination to Him and that just doesnt sit right with you. so how long till you come out of the closet?

Im straight. All the pics I've posted were directed to your homoerotic fantasies of jesus and his 12 gay lovers and god, who ask you to eat his flesh. I think they mean ASS, so go for it; eat god's ass and suck on jesus's's's's balls, you ignorant waste of life.

Warlock

08-14-2009, 06:06 AM

I do, there is no way i would be where i am today without god. Things have happened to me in my life that would not have happened without him

zimabog

08-14-2009, 12:27 PM

such as?

ahabion

08-24-2009, 01:23 AM

we need more gay people... too many people reproducing on this planet

:goodjob: It starts by making a choice... glad you're forsaking women and looking for more manly relationships. Good for you!

zimabog

08-26-2009, 01:42 AM

:goodjob: It starts by making a choice... glad you're forsaking women and looking for more manly relationships. Good for you!

Im not gay and or bisexual. I simply see the big picture of what's happening.
Gay people don't have sex with females = no reproduction (besides test tube babies)
Maybe it cancel out all the Mexican couples with 6 kids hanging off the carts at Walmart. Just kidding.

Justin51982

08-26-2009, 01:14 PM

I know there is, without a doubt. I've had too many things happen in some odd ways to nod believe.

Ocelot

08-27-2009, 05:00 PM

we need more gay people... too many people reproducing on this planetfalse, the problem is that not everyone is having at least 2 kids, which will in the long run cause a huge problem, certain "races" will begin to fade out.

zimabog

08-27-2009, 08:32 PM

false, the problem is that not everyone is having at least 2 kids, which will in the long run cause a huge problem, certain "races" will begin to fade out.

Very true, good point. People of full European decent in America are soon becoming a minority.

But worldwide overall, sustainability is at serious risk. For those who don't know, "sustainability" is interconnected to everything and everyone on the planet. Sustainability combines the subjects of economics, ecology, renewable energy, material resources, and many more areas. And population growth is at the top of the list of things that effect sustainability. More cars, more food needs, rising food prices, less resources, less land, more pollution...ect.

Everything you consume, everything you buy, every resource you use... effects everyone on earth. It is really a butterfly effect. That is just you... now consider everyone on the planet.... now consider the rapidly growing population.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m146/microcosm_2006/BirthMachine.jpg

Now that's a good thing about homosexuals. They aren't birth machines.

sport_122

08-29-2009, 12:32 AM

we need more gay people... too many people reproducing on this planet

People are actually having less kids these days. What you maybe noticing is more related to the fact that people are living much longer on average than they did in the 20th century (modern medicine). Also, the world has had its share of wars (regional and world)and a lot of the world made a shift away from the agrarian society. Farmers wanted more kids to get stuff done.

zimabog

08-29-2009, 01:27 PM

There is about a 70 year lag yes. But in certain areas the trend does not slow down. And there are absolutely no population growth models that show a population less or equal to the current population for a 50 or 100 year progression. Most population growth models show that by 2050 there will be between 9 billion to 11 billion people on the planet. And each person's consumption will be higher than in the previous generations too.

But nature always fixes the problem. It happens all the time in wild animal populations. It has happened all the time on island populations too. If the population doesn't correct themselves, the sustainability limits of nature will correct it for you... by starvation of food and resources. And no, a god will not save you.
The consumption wants of each person increases. So this urbanization effect of less children per household does not cancel out the fact of urbanization and consumption needs. Because each person will want/need more, but of course there will be less.
It is like a blanket. I'm sure many of you have heard of the "traction blanket" referring to the amount of traction your tires have at a time... that is why you can't brake hard and turn hard at the same time.
We all can't live with high standards and a high population. It is impossible. Unless you figure out a way to colonize space and live on it the same way we live on Earth.

Now back to this god concept?

illfaded

09-07-2009, 12:51 AM

short answer, yes

zimabog

09-10-2009, 02:02 PM

Lakshmi,Hindu goddess, exists on Earth!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Maha_Lakshmi_Devi.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_01/lakshmiBARCROFT_468x474.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00649/news-graphics-2007-_649959a.jpg

The mother said in a television program that a few weeks before giving birth to Lakshmi, she had a dream which told her to build a temple to the goddess Lakshmi. Subsequently, Lakshmi was born during the "Festival of Lakshmi".

BABY J

09-10-2009, 03:45 PM

I'd hit it.

Spectic Tank

09-19-2009, 01:07 PM

No, and if there is I hope it's not the Judeo-Christian god. He seems like an asshole.

BluesClues

09-19-2009, 07:11 PM

Yes. Just got saved in December and baptized in March of this year. I am a christian.

M60-E34

09-23-2009, 12:46 PM

Yes. God is real.

If you're born once, you will die twice. If you're born twice, you will die once.

bdydrpdmazda

09-25-2009, 01:28 PM

yep

civillac

09-25-2009, 01:46 PM

i think about this daily. i really dont know what too say. on one hand i pray and sometime they come true but is that god or coinsidence?

you have a old old book that meraculously has many different people speaking of god, but who wrote the book. how did all of those different people merge there stories into one book we know as the bible? why is there other religion? there cant be more than one god. someone came up with this a long long time ago and i believe it was nothing more than a scare tactic sometimes. but then i go to church sometimes and it just feels so right and real but then you have the theory of evolution. If humans evolved from aps then why are the monkeys not still evolving?

science is made up just like everything else, yes the evidence supports the facts but what are you comparing this too? there is nothing to compare it too, science changes daily people come up with new words for different things when it comes down to it life is just a wonderful thing that should not be questioned, just live it brother

ARH1192

09-25-2009, 01:48 PM

Yes. God is real.

If you're born once, you will die twice. If you're born twice, you will die once.

Real inspiring words there jihad :rolleyes:

Religion is for the weak.

zimabog

09-25-2009, 05:22 PM

i think about this daily. i really dont know what too say. on one hand i pray and sometime they come true but is that god or coinsidence?
What did you pray for? If it was either a yes/no thing, like passing a test or having a friend recover from an illness, then that's like a 50%/50% thing. Like praying to win a coin toss. Or was it something like praying to see a Cooke Monster impersonator tap dancing with silver shoes in the middle of a Big Lots parking lot and have the Oscar Meyer wiener mobile show up at the same time?

but then i go to church sometimes and it just feels so right and real but then you have the theory of evolution. If humans evolved from aps then why are the monkeys not still evolving?

I bet people of other religions get the same feeling when they go to their house of worship? Does that make them both "right and real"? You can probably get the same feeling by doing other activities with people.

Apes have evolved... The same apes that are our ancestors have evolved into humans and chimpanzees. We did not come from chimpanzees, but have evolved from the same common species. So chimpanzees have evolved out of that same common ape. If you want a reference to evolution dealing specifically with chimpanzees, research the Bonobo and Common Chimpanzee. The Bonobo is a chimpanzee that lives north of the Congo River and the Common Chimpanzee is a chimpanzee that lives south of the Congo River. This seperation allowed them to evolve a bit differently.

BABY J

10-02-2009, 01:48 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/ap_on_sc/us_sci_before_lucy

Ziptied

10-02-2009, 12:09 PM

Whats simple about this? define god? This should've been worded "Do you believe in a or multiple supreme beings"

Lankhoss

10-02-2009, 03:52 PM

sport_122

10-02-2009, 05:54 PM

Real inspiring words there jihad :rolleyes:

Religion is for the weak.

True, and I am weak...so very weak.

sport_122

10-02-2009, 05:55 PM

I'd hit it.

Ewww:eek:

zimabog

10-02-2009, 10:21 PM

The existance of a God that is listed in the books that have been written on this planet, makes absolutely no sense.

However, I always find it funny when Athiests are sooooooo sure they're right and find people who believe in a God to be silly or ignorant, when KNOWING one doesn't exist is just as ridiculous.

we can be certain that certain types of gods don't exist. most atheists i know of are agnostic atheists, where we might acknowledge that one might exist, but if it does exist it isn't really a god at all, more like an addition to nature.

JDMGRNAV6

10-03-2009, 02:53 PM

i believe in God, i have been saved for many years now.

sport_122

10-03-2009, 10:14 PM

we can be certain that certain types of gods don't exist. most atheists i know of are agnostic atheists, where we might acknowledge that one might exist, but if it does exist it isn't really a god at all, more like an addition to nature.

please elaborate on this?

zimabog

10-04-2009, 12:28 PM

BABY J

10-04-2009, 08:14 PM

bu villain

10-05-2009, 02:37 PM

The existance of a God that is listed in the books that have been written on this planet, makes absolutely no sense.

However, I always find it funny when Athiests are sooooooo sure they're right and find people who believe in a God to be silly or ignorant, when KNOWING one doesn't exist is just as ridiculous.

Is it also rediculous to not believe in Unicorns? Are you sooooooo sure they don't exist? Using your logic I expect that you believe in every fantasy creature.

Most rational people however don't say something is true because we can't proove it isn't true. We usually require evidence before we say something exists, not the inverse.

sport_122

10-05-2009, 04:02 PM

Einstien and Hawking and other scientists use the word "god" many times in their writings. Hawking was straight up atheist, has said he was atheist, and his use of the word god means an abstract principle of order and harmony, a set of mathematical equations, as does Eisnstien's god.

Their god is simply just nature, the reason why Alkaline Earth Metals like to ionicly bond with the Halogens. As in why the speed of light is 300,000 kilometers per second and not 500,000 kilometers per second. As in why velocity is the derivative of position and the integral of acceleration. As in why a force at 90 degrees to intended direction of movement produces no work (Force*distance*cosθ=work). That is nature, that is what many famous scientists refer to as "god".

Now the equation "dv/dt = a" doesn't seem like a god does it? Your right, its just nature. It might as well say on dollar bills "IN DV/DT=A WE TRUST" because that is the only thing an atheist might even refer to as god. Just imagine that on our currency: "IN F=MA WE TRUST". "F=MA BLESS OUR SOLDIERS". "dQ-dW=dU BLESS AMERICA".

These equations do not have a conscious, nor a personality or plan, they do not even know they exist. They are simply equations of nature. The only thing most atheists will even refer to as god will be the thing that makes those equations valid, which is just nature. I believe in nature, but I don't believe in god. Any type of god. Nature is sometimes referred to as a product of a god, that may be true, but all we have is nature, there is no divine thing here. God can not exist in nature. All there is is nature. Therefore god cannot exist. All that exists is nature. What if one said, "What if god is nature?" then you are just using the word god as a synonym for nature. Which is what a lot of famous scientists do. Nature is not divine. It is just nature.

I hope I elaborated enough.

I like this post,

BUT... you forget something. The only reason why those equations work is because variables and the functions are grounded in an absolute. The variables as you state can be defined in numerous ways, but the not so easily understood principle of the whole thing is the WHY those equations work everywhere.

Why does this matter? Well...

You used the name Hawking in that post. In his book "The Big Bang and Black Holes" He wrote about the perceptive conscience that controls our universe. He wrote about this and personified it. He did this because even in his observations he admitted that there was something else going on in our universe that the purest form of the scientific method could not explain. Origins, structure, and even the predictability and universal rules and how they are what allows science and logic to work.

After writing this he went back and wrote an excerpt. He changed his mind and wanted to edit some of the passages, because he did not want his conclusions to be evidence for a God or a creative conscience. He admittedly said that his observations led him to state something that he did not believe and did not want to promote.

I point this out because the truth is that equations present conscious origin. No equations or formula to calculate anything originates from nowhere. Things that "just happen" have no equation to represent them. The design of triangles, the formulaic expressions for circles and spheres, and pyramids, these all have a function that is created and designed. The formulas ONLY work because the objects were designed.

Circles do not form naturally in our universe. Squares do not form naturally, triangles, do not form naturally. So if you want to discuss the formulaic expressions which are universal to our human understanding in mathematics then you need to understand that these things are product of a conscious designer and not circumstance. Likewise, formulas are a product of the design of these objects. The objects do not occur naturally.

When speaking of natural phenomenon. It is not to be forgotten that the same rules apply. The only reason we can understand the speed of light or the properties of alkaline metals is because they follow rules. They have constants. The question is why...why is it that these things all act within a certain spectrum if our universe is simply the product of disorder and chaotic probability. All it takes is for a few of these things to be without "rule" for the formula to never work. For instance, the speed of light, slowing itself down or the rules of mass and gravity deciding that they do not want to work this time.

We do not see that. And we have yet to give a logical counter claim to why things function this way if their is nothing defining the rules with which they can and will function. Hawking observed this. Dawkins observes this but also refuses to name this "process".

My point is the further you go into the scientific hole, its not the more you understand about our universe, its the more you realize that you DO NOT know what is going on and that the pieces of the puzzle are not simplistic. The presence of our universe methods can only at its root serve to point to a universe logic. Logic does not exist without conscious. What would you define this conscious as. Do you think it is just random that the thousands upon thousands of equations that we have developed work?

thegovanator

10-05-2009, 04:48 PM

zimabog

10-05-2009, 05:15 PM

I point this out because the truth is that equations present conscious origin. No equations or formula to calculate anything originates from nowhere.
This relates directly to the popular "blind watchmaker" debate (except we are not talking about evolution). I do not agree that equations present conscious origin. You seem to be saying that the universe cannot exist without a creator to ultimately create it. This is highly debatable as it is impossible to prove that the universe even had an ultimate 1st creation (not talking about any cyclic destruction/construction that may be present).

Things that "just happen" have no equation to represent them. The design of triangles, the formulaic expressions for circles and spheres, and pyramids, these all have a function that is created and designed. The formulas ONLY work because the objects were designed.

So what came first? The formula or the idea of object?

Circles do not form naturally in our universe. Squares do not form naturally, triangles, do not form naturally. So if you want to discuss the formulaic expressions which are universal to our human understanding in mathematics then you need to understand that these things are product of a conscious designer and not circumstance. Likewise, formulas are a product of the design of these objects. The objects do not occur naturally.

I fail to see how this helps your argument. You say these shapes do not form naturally (many shapes do though). But wouldnt a naturally forming shape be product of the designer you describe?

When speaking of natural phenomenon. It is not to be forgotten that the same rules apply. The only reason we can understand the speed of light or the properties of alkaline metals is because they follow rules. They have constants. The question is why...why is it that these things all act within a certain spectrum if our universe is simply the product of disorder and chaotic probability. All it takes is for a few of these things to be without "rule" for the formula to never work. For instance, the speed of light, slowing itself down or the rules of mass and gravity deciding that they do not want to work this time.

Are you saying that in a universe without a designer formulas would not work? As in one moment gravity hold me down, but another moment, with nothing changed, gravity throws me into the air?

"The question is why...why is it that these things all act within a certain spectrum if our universe is simply the product of disorder and chaotic probability."

If the universe had different operating formulas, its not that there would be no universe, its just that the universe would be different than the universe we know now.

We do not see that. And we have yet to give a logical counter claim to why things function this way if their is nothing defining the rules with which they can and will function. Hawking observed this. Dawkins observes this but also refuses to name this "process".

Its simple, if there were no operating formulas, you would not exist, but there is always existence. I'll use human evolution as an example. People say, "but existence of homo sapiens, our 5 fingers on a hand, our brains, our legs... it is evidence of design." But its totally selective randomness, human evolution could have as easily produced a creature with 10 fingers on hand, tails, 4 legs, green skin, and babies are born from hatched eggs.. and we would STILL call ourselves human! If the universe had different formulas, it would still be the universe, just a different universe.

So what came first in sports universe, the rules or the actions? Can not actions define rules?

My point is the further you go into the scientific hole, its not the more you understand about our universe, its the more you realize that you DO NOT know what is going on and that the pieces of the puzzle are not simplistic. The presence of our universe methods can only at its root serve to point to a universe logic. Logic does not exist without conscious. What would you define this conscious as. Do you think it is just random that the thousands upon thousands of equations that we have developed work?

I am in extreme disagreement in that you say logic cannot exist without conscious. How does consciousness exist before logic? Who designed god? If god is without cause/designer, who's to say the rest of the universe isn't?

sport_122

10-06-2009, 08:54 AM

This relates directly to the popular "blind watchmaker" debate (except we are not talking about evolution). I do not agree that equations present conscious origin. You seem to be saying that the universe cannot exist without a creator to ultimately create it. This is highly debatable as it is impossible to prove that the universe even had an ultimate 1st creation (not talking about any cyclic destruction/construction that may be present).

So what came first? The formula or the idea of object?

I fail to see how this helps your argument. You say these shapes do not form naturally (many shapes do though). But wouldnt a naturally forming shape be product of the designer you describe?

Are you saying that in a universe without a designer formulas would not work? As in one moment gravity hold me down, but another moment, with nothing changed, gravity throws me into the air?

"The question is why...why is it that these things all act within a certain spectrum if our universe is simply the product of disorder and chaotic probability."

If the universe had different operating formulas, its not that there would be no universe, its just that the universe would be different than the universe we know now.

Its simple, if there were no operating formulas, you would not exist, but there is always existence. I'll use human evolution as an example. People say, "but existence of homo sapiens, our 5 fingers on a hand, our brains, our legs... it is evidence of design." But its totally selective randomness, human evolution could have as easily produced a creature with 10 fingers on hand, tails, 4 legs, green skin, and babies are born from hatched eggs.. and we would STILL call ourselves human! If the universe had different formulas, it would still be the universe, just a different universe.

So what came first in sports universe, the rules or the actions? Can not actions define rules?

I am in extreme disagreement in that you say logic cannot exist without conscious. How does consciousness exist before logic? Who designed god? If god is without cause/designer, who's to say the rest of the universe isn't?

"blind watchmaker". The blind watch maker scenario assumes that I do not believe that the God that created this universe has revealed himself to us. I do. I do NOT believe that we simply happened upon this universe and all that is in it and are seeking to justify its order. I believe that God is revealing himself to us and the advancement of understanding of him will grow our ability to understand the universe that we live in.

I would say that I believe the formula or the rule of how that specific object/idea functions came first. If not, at the onset of its existence it would have no rule and no properties of which to identify it. This is because I do believe in absolutes. Now if those rules were different, the universe would still function under rules. Its not what the rules are that I am pointing to, its the origin of such rules. If there is a multi-verse. Each multi-universe would function under its own set of rule or its existence would cease. Even if the rules are different than those that we hold in our own.

Think about other planets. Even though gravity, temperature, etc is different based on different planets, we still have to note that should some basic principles not be established then those bodies would cease to exists.
So the idea is not, WHAT the rule is, it is that the rule exists and that the order dominates that physical existence or such physical existence cannot be known. we could not do any form of science, hard or soft, if we did not have rules that govern.

Its simple, if there were no operating formulas, you would not exist, but there is always existence. I'll use human evolution as an example. People say, "but existence of homo sapiens, our 5 fingers on a hand, our brains, our legs... it is evidence of design." But its totally selective randomness, human evolution could have as easily produced a creature with 10 fingers on hand, tails, 4 legs, green skin, and babies are born from hatched eggs.. and we would STILL call ourselves human! If the universe had different formulas, it would still be the universe, just a different universe.if there was no operating formula, or understandable order. Then how would I exist? How would planets exists. How would gravity exist, how do we measure the speed of light. My point is that.

In my study of evolution, I have come upon one conclusion. It is definitely not understood. Evolution in and of itself is described as being extremely ordered (dawkins) yet extremely randomized (Gould). But to say it simple I do not believe in natural selection theory and survival of the most fit etc etc. Human societies have already demonstrated the errors in that. Especially in humans. I believe in genetic combination that allows our changes to be modified based on our genetic history, but to get back to my thoughts, its really not about what we call ourselves...its that we have the ability to define ourselves.

I do not believe actions can define rules. If so we are in trouble. If the misgivings of human interaction defines the rules of which humanity should function then where would we be...Stalin, Hitler, Christian and atheistic fundamentalists, would all be justified in their actions under the principle that the actions of many were in sync therefore they were justified. As I said before, I believe there are moral absolutes...I believe that they should not be confused with legality because that is different. But rules and actions are not even on the same plane.

Rules and consequences fall under law. Laws can be followed or they can be broken, but what MUST exist is consequences for breaking those laws. Without consequences there is no justice in law. For instance, two pieces of matter cannot occupy the same space...they can try to break that law, but one or both of them will be destroyed in the process. Or they can avoid contact in obedience to that law.

I am in extreme disagreement in that you say logic cannot exist without conscious. How does consciousness exist before logic? Who designed god? If god is without cause/designer, who's to say the rest of the universe isn't?Are not their illogical people in the world? Logic is the ability to use ones consciousness. Demonstrate to me a universe where logic exists and there is no conscious to understand that logic? Without a consciousness, what would be perceived as logic? If anything they MUST coexist. but logic can never come first as a conscious dictates what is logical.

In your definition of God. refer to previous posts. I believe that God has demonstrated to us that HE is that which exists not just in our universe but before our universe and eternally. This is demonstrated to me in that upon what I view as his revelation to us, he has demonstrated his ability to function outside of our rules. I am running out of time, but I can revisit this for elaboration later. Simply put, God is defined as eternal. This means that his conscious is not locked in our space time, therefore he does not have to follow (he could not follow) the understandings of causality that we place upon that which is within this creation. Much the same way that you say...could something outside our universe exist and not be subjected to our universal laws.

Good discussion. I hope not to confuse and I welcome questions.

bu villain

10-06-2009, 03:56 PM

zimabog

10-06-2009, 04:18 PM

Now if those rules were different, the universe would still function under rules. Its not what the rules are that I am pointing to, its the origin of such rules. If there is a multi-verse. Each multi-universe would function under its own set of rule or its existence would cease. Even if the rules are different than those that we hold in our own.

we agree on there must be rules, its the creation of rules is what this boils down to. which is impossible to determine.

In my study of evolution, I have come upon one conclusion. It is definitely not understood. Evolution in and of itself is described as being extremely ordered (dawkins) yet extremely randomized (Gould). But to say it simple I do not believe in natural selection theory and survival of the most fit etc etc. Human societies have already demonstrated the errors in that.

How have human societies demonstrated errors in natural selection?
Is it because of the existence of fat people or something? As in who would reproduce with a fat ugly person?

I do not believe actions can define rules. If so we are in trouble. If the misgivings of human interaction defines the rules of which humanity should function then where would we be...Stalin, Hitler, Christian and atheistic fundamentalists, would all be justified in their actions under the principle that the actions of many were in sync therefore they were justified. As I said before, I believe there are moral absolutes...I believe that they should not be confused with legality because that is different. But rules and actions are not even on the same plane.

I was more talking in line that rules = formulas of nature.

Are not their illogical people in the world? Logic is the ability to use ones consciousness. Demonstrate to me a universe where logic exists and there is no conscious to understand that logic? Without a consciousness, what would be perceived as logic? If anything they MUST coexist. but logic can never come first as a conscious dictates what is logical.

Is it not possible to close your eyes, and write a bunch of numbers and symbols and + and - signs without even thinking of them. Or write numbers, symbols, and math operators on flash cards and throw them into the air and where ever they land is the formula that will be used.

In your definition of God. refer to previous posts. I believe that God has demonstrated to us that HE is that which exists not just in our universe but before our universe and eternally.

So why is it a "he" and not an "it"?

This is demonstrated to me in that upon what I view as his revelation to us, he has demonstrated his ability to function outside of our rules.
I am running out of time, but I can revisit this for elaboration later. Simply put, God is defined as eternal. This means that his conscious is not locked in our space time, therefore he does not have to follow (he could not follow) the understandings of causality that we place upon that which is within this creation. Much the same way that you say...could something outside our universe exist and not be subjected to our universal laws.

So you have just demonstrated that if there is a god, there can be no miracles, prayers, divine intervention... because all those must operate within the universe's rules.

Dirka Dirka

10-06-2009, 10:45 PM

I do believe in god.....no, i dont know what he/she/it looks like, but i definately do believe. I dont consider myself to be a part of any denomination, but i know the bible and i know what i believe.

sport_122

10-07-2009, 08:46 AM

Maybe I am misunderstanding you but it seems you are saying rules/order = conscious design? Along the lines of:

(a) There can be no order without design
(b) There is order in the universe
(c) Therefore the universe is designed

I would argue that if this is your logic, (a) is not proveable and thus can not be used as a basis for proving existence of a God. If I am misinterpreting you then please let me know.

Additionally, I'd be interested to hear why you think humans prove that natural selection is false but maybe that has to be another thread.

a) I am saying that order is evidence of design. Not absolute proof. I don't believe things can be proven, but I do believe that evidence can be provided in order to present a logical conclusion. Much like in a courtroom.

In a courtroom the evidence for the life of Christ is actually pretty astounding. For instance, it is very interesting that with such "ridiculous" accounts given to speak of Christ, through eyewitness testimony (the Gospels) I have yet to see one writer of that period come forth to say that this was ridiculous. Even tertullian, wrote of the massive eclipse and the earthquake that shook the world at the time of Christs death, and he was not a follower of Christ.

b) The rules of our universe provide order. Not ducks in a single file line, but identifiable order. For instance, we can identify a galaxy, we can identify gravity, light, etc etc because these things follow properties of order and do not function outside of them. If the observations of such things were not ordered we could not identify them and study them in the manner in which we do...relying on the observations and testimony of previous observers to direct our own and to aid in hypothesizing.

c) This and other things give EVIDENCE of a consciousness directing our universe. Not just because of their existence, but also because logically and philosophically, some of the things in our universe can not be given an origin in the theories we have for creation of our universe.

I was a biology major in college for a while. One of the things that I have a problem with is the idea of survival.

If life on our planet responds to the natural selection process then we need to be able to account for the emotional attachment as demonstrated by the human species.

For instance. If our goals are to pass along our own DNA, then why is it our that our morality defines things like infidelity, murder, stealing etc wrong. These are all actions that promote the survival of the species and if we are acting against them, and we are, we are demonstrating that this evolutionary process is not really guiding our actions. If this is the case then what is?

Then we look at the chromosomes in our DNA. If these are developing then we should be able to identify them in lesser value. For instance if we started off with a single chromosome, then what was its function, then what was the function of two, then 3, then four, etc. Biology does not give into account this problem, instead we postulate based on leaps in a very very broken evolutionary chain. In fact, I think that as I studied evolution, I had more problems with the missing components than anything else. We filled those missing components with non evidential hypothesis' and they became the rule of thought without evidence to support them. For that reason, (lack of solid evidence) evolution (natural selection, darwinian) remains only a theory which has yet to be proven, but has been marketed as fact.

then we come to the demonstrations as stated by lab professors. Every one of these, that I have seen have been catalyzed by some process. If we have to add a catalyst, then how is it natural. We are not demonstrating nature if we have to add in some sort of protein or we have to manipulate the cell to cause change.

This is the extremely watered down version. But yes this would probably need to be another conversation.

and again, I don't think anything can be proven, yet I do have evidence that leads me to believe that a reasonable conclusion to our universe is a conscious creator. And the evidence for one, is much stronger than the evidence against one. Now my christian faith is based on that evidence as well as the evidence that I feel makes a very strong case for the person of Christ.

sport_122

10-07-2009, 09:00 AM

Is it not possible to close your eyes, and write a bunch of numbers and symbols and + and - signs without even thinking of them. Or write numbers, symbols, and math operators on flash cards and throw them into the air and where ever they land is the formula that will be used.

yes its possible, but make a formula using that method and to see it working...to see it always working, demonstrates that their is not a random generation to such a formula. The rules of our universe obviously have purpose. We don't really understand them, but I believe they somehow have purpose.

Even in our biology, it only takes one change in an amino acid to kill you. Or producing one less chemical in your body and you will be ill or be more vulnerable to certain diseases. One less protein and your immune system fails. There is a very specific balance to all of biology. I think this demonstrates efficiency in biological processes. Why would loose the ability to live under water if we still go there? Why would we lose the ability to excavate oxygen for water if we have always been water loving creatures. Why when it is obvious that some creatures can do both.

these questions seem pretty lame when you read them but think about them in the process of selection. Why did we lose the ability to do something that we have always done. This is why Dawkins tries to add a psuedo- consciousness to evolution, because these things cannot be explained in natural terms. But in adding a consciousness then you have to be willing to note that there is something else to be accounted for.

I hope that makes sense. Im trying to type fast so I can get to work.

So why is it a "he" and not an "it"?

So you have just demonstrated that if there is a god, there can be no miracles, prayers, divine intervention... because all those must operate within the universe's rules.

I say he because I believe God has revealed himself to mankind and that in that revelation a masculine pronoun was received. And the person of Christ was male and I have yet to read accounts of the God that I believe was revealed to men, as a female.

Demonstrating that there are rules is a method used to understand and to be able to identify God. I believe miracles are only noticed because we have rules. Without rules there can be no miracles because nothing would be normal.

I believe that God is not the only one to do miracles in our existence, but in his revelation of himself he performed a miracle that no body else could. the resurrection.

Okay. sorry to be brief, but i gotta go.

I will try to get back on this evening.

bu villain

10-09-2009, 02:27 PM

a) I am saying that order is evidence of design. Not absolute proof. I don't believe things can be proven, but I do believe that evidence can be provided in order to present a logical conclusion. Much like in a courtroom.

I disagree about it being evidence of design although it certainly doesn't disprove design. It seems completely neutral to me, not supporting either side (design or lack of design). The only reason to attribute it to design I can see is that you want it to be. Btw, I'm not sure what your paragraph on Christ has to do with this topic.

b) The rules of our universe provide order. Not ducks in a single file line, but identifiable order. For instance, we can identify a galaxy, we can identify gravity, light, etc etc because these things follow properties of order and do not function outside of them. If the observations of such things were not ordered we could not identify them and study them in the manner in which we do...relying on the observations and testimony of previous observers to direct our own and to aid in hypothesizing.

I wasn't debating that there is order in the universe although I'm sure some people would like to debate that depending on how you define order. Either way I see no need to go into this since my real point was that your assumption of (a) was invalid.

c) This and other things give EVIDENCE of a consciousness directing our universe. Not just because of their existence, but also because logically and philosophically, some of the things in our universe can not be given an origin in the theories we have for creation of our universe.

If you wan't to provide other evidence that's fine but I do not believe you have shown order is evidence for design. What you are doing with your last statement is creating a God of gaps. We don't know how the universe began, so instead of just saying "We don't know" you say it was God. Btw, there are several theories for how the universe began (but that's not the point).

I was a biology major in college for a while. One of the things that I have a problem with is the idea of survival.

If life on our planet responds to the natural selection process then we need to be able to account for the emotional attachment as demonstrated by the human species.

Emotional attachment can be very helpful for survival. For example, how long do you think humans would last if mothers didn't care about their children.

For instance. If our goals are to pass along our own DNA, then why is it our that our morality defines things like infidelity, murder, stealing etc wrong. These are all actions that promote the survival of the species and if we are acting against them, and we are, we are demonstrating that this evolutionary process is not really guiding our actions. If this is the case then what is?

I would argue that those things are not good for our survival. Killing humans is obviously not good for the survival of humans (I don't think that needs to much explaining). Stealing and infidelity certainly negatively affect social cohesion. Having more stable societies is certainly a survival advantage and many many other species have their own rules for their societies (bees, ants, apes, wolves, etc.)

Then we look at the chromosomes in our DNA. If these are developing then we should be able to identify them in lesser value. For instance if we started off with a single chromosome, then what was its function, then what was the function of two, then 3, then four, etc. Biology does not give into account this problem, instead we postulate based on leaps in a very very broken evolutionary chain. In fact, I think that as I studied evolution, I had more problems with the missing components than anything else. We filled those missing components with non evidential hypothesis' and they became the rule of thought without evidence to support them. For that reason, (lack of solid evidence) evolution (natural selection, darwinian) remains only a theory which has yet to be proven, but has been marketed as fact.

This is basically irreducable complexity which once again could be a whole other thread but in response to how one chromosome becomes two it would be through mutation. Remember evolution doesn't have a goal and then build something to get there. I'm surprised you said you were a biology major because you say evolution is "only a theory" but anyone who is well versed in science terminology knows that a theory in science is not the same as a hypothesis. Quite the opposite in fact. I doubt you would say the theory of gravity is "only a theory". The word theory is used because in science, unlike religion, NOTHING IS EVER PROVEN, only things that have never been disproven.

then we come to the demonstrations as stated by lab professors. Every one of these, that I have seen have been catalyzed by some process. If we have to add a catalyst, then how is it natural. We are not demonstrating nature if we have to add in some sort of protein or we have to manipulate the cell to cause change.

I would suspect waiting for the right mutation to occur would not be a good use of your time.

This is the extremely watered down version. But yes this would probably need to be another conversation.

and again, I don't think anything can be proven, yet I do have evidence that leads me to believe that a reasonable conclusion to our universe is a conscious creator. And the evidence for one, is much stronger than the evidence against one. Now my christian faith is based on that evidence as well as the evidence that I feel makes a very strong case for the person of Christ.

Yeah I probably indulged too much on the evolution topic myself. In the end of course you have to believe in whatever you believe. Belief is not a choice but that doesn't mean it can't change. I can't choose to believe in God because I simply don't see the evidence. No matter how hard I try, I can't make myself believe in something I don't see the evidence for.

bu villain

10-09-2009, 02:38 PM

Even in our biology, it only takes one change in an amino acid to kill you. Or producing one less chemical in your body and you will be ill or be more vulnerable to certain diseases. One less protein and your immune system fails. There is a very specific balance to all of biology. I think this demonstrates efficiency in biological processes. Why would loose the ability to live under water if we still go there? Why would we lose the ability to excavate oxygen for water if we have always been water loving creatures. Why when it is obvious that some creatures can do both.

This is a logical fallacy to look at the outcome and therefore assume the cause. If there is a 1 in 1 billion chance that this universe exists in its current form but there are 1 billion universes created then the odds are very good that this universe would exists the way it does (obviously the number 1 billion is arbitrary, make it whatever number you like)

these questions seem pretty lame when you read them but think about them in the process of selection. Why did we lose the ability to do something that we have always done. This is why Dawkins tries to add a psuedo- consciousness to evolution, because these things cannot be explained in natural terms. But in adding a consciousness then you have to be willing to note that there is something else to be accounted for.

I'm not aware of this psuedo-conscousness you are talking about but I've never seen reference to anything of the sort in Dawkins. But as far as losing an "ability". Don't forget these abilities aren't free. Every ability/feature has upsides and downsides. I bet if you got a deadly gill infection right now you wouldn't think it was so great to have gills.

bonezMTA

10-09-2009, 05:04 PM

i believe in G.O.D 100% all the way!!!! he's my man!!! he helps me out with everything!!!

"When life knocks you down on your knees, god's just asking you to pray"

true story

sport_122

10-14-2009, 08:38 AM

This is a logical fallacy to look at the outcome and therefore assume the cause. If there is a 1 in 1 billion chance that this universe exists in its current form but there are 1 billion universes created then the odds are very good that this universe would exists the way it does (obviously the number 1 billion is arbitrary, make it whatever number you like)

I'm not aware of this psuedo-conscousness you are talking about but I've never seen reference to anything of the sort in Dawkins. But as far as losing an "ability". Don't forget these abilities aren't free. Every ability/feature has upsides and downsides. I bet if you got a deadly gill infection right now you wouldn't think it was so great to have gills.

How is it faulty logic to make reasonable deductions. In fact, the same thing you accuse me of is done even moreso in the very next sentence where you assume that there are 1 billion universes. Since the number is arbitrary we can assume one, we can assume that its a billion raised to the billionth.

Looking at the outcome and assuming the cause is how most of our science works. You make observations and you make reasonable assumptions as to how that could have happened based on prior observations in our universe.

if you happen upon a wall with graffiti it is reasonable to assume someone painted that graffiti, if you happen upon a police car and two cars stopped and you see signs of an accident it is reasonable to assume those cars were in an accident. So how do you figure you cannot look at the outcome of an event and make reasonable deductions as to its cause...Saying the opposite puts you in a very strange position because how do you make a reasonable hypothesis on anything? Science and logic do not work without this reason.

Also, you should go look up Dawkins as he talks about the non-randomness of natural selection. He admits that the process gives an appearance of design because the process is specific. Its in his books, and its on his debates. If you like I can post links. But you must not know his theories very well if you didn't know this about him.

Lastly, the loosing abilities aspect of adaptation is a false assumption to proving change. People loose the ability to do things with age and with adaptation. our body types change and our intelligence changes. These are not signs of evolution they are signs of adaptation.

Just about every species has a starting point of which they can deviate. IF you work out and get in shape, your body will change, is you stop it will go back to your starting point. The fruit fly evolution argument is the same. In the thousands of generations of fruit flies, we have yet to see anything except for fruit flies emerge. We have witnessed subtle changes but we have NOT scene those changes manifest themselves in a replicable DNA pattern. For instance the ones with two sets of wings come out sterile. The ones with any genetic modification do not survive or cannot reproduce. This is not evolution as in natural selection because there is NO survival or replication of the physical modification, there is no change in the DNA make up. If you test the DNA, you get that of a standard fruit fly, you don't get a horse fly or a new species of fly. Why is the fruit fly NOT evolving based on your world view?

bu villain

10-14-2009, 04:11 PM

How is it faulty logic to make reasonable deductions. In fact, the same thing you accuse me of is done even moreso in the very next sentence where you assume that there are 1 billion universes. Since the number is arbitrary we can assume one, we can assume that its a billion raised to the billionth.

Looking at the outcome and assuming the cause is how most of our science works. You make observations and you make reasonable assumptions as to how that could have happened based on prior observations in our universe.

if you happen upon a wall with graffiti it is reasonable to assume someone painted that graffiti, if you happen upon a police car and two cars stopped and you see signs of an accident it is reasonable to assume those cars were in an accident. So how do you figure you cannot look at the outcome of an event and make reasonable deductions as to its cause...Saying the opposite puts you in a very strange position because how do you make a reasonable hypothesis on anything? Science and logic do not work without this reason.

I must not be making myself clear. It's called inductive reasoning

Outcome: There is a puddle of water on the floor
Previous knowledge: Melted ice creates water
Conclusion: The puddle of water on the floor used to be ice

Obviously the conclusion could very well be wrong. Likewise:

Outcome: Our universe has rules
Previous knowledge: Designers create rules
Conclusion: Our universe was designed

This is equally likely to be incorrect

I hope that clarifies

Also, you should go look up Dawkins as he talks about the non-randomness of natural selection. He admits that the process gives an appearance of design because the process is specific. Its in his books, and its on his debates. If you like I can post links. But you must not know his theories very well if you didn't know this about him.

You're right I'm no expert on Dawkins but non randomness does not mean consciousness or "pseudo-consciousness". If the animals of a species have different height legs and the ones with short legs die in a flood while the ones with long legs survive, the survival was non random but it doesn't mean there was a conscious decision to kill the short leg ones.

Lastly, the loosing abilities aspect of adaptation is a false assumption to proving change. People loose the ability to do things with age and with adaptation. our body types change and our intelligence changes. These are not signs of evolution they are signs of adaptation.

Just about every species has a starting point of which they can deviate. IF you work out and get in shape, your body will change, is you stop it will go back to your starting point. The fruit fly evolution argument is the same. In the thousands of generations of fruit flies, we have yet to see anything except for fruit flies emerge. We have witnessed subtle changes but we have NOT scene those changes manifest themselves in a replicable DNA pattern. For instance the ones with two sets of wings come out sterile. The ones with any genetic modification do not survive or cannot reproduce. This is not evolution as in natural selection because there is NO survival or replication of the physical modification, there is no change in the DNA make up. If you test the DNA, you get that of a standard fruit fly, you don't get a horse fly or a new species of fly. Why is the fruit fly NOT evolving based on your world view?

I agree that losing abilities does not prove evolution but you're original post was saying that its evidence to disprove evolution and I was just saying it's not. Before you said "why would animals lose abilities if there was evolution" and now you are answering your own question.

As to the fruit flies, send me a link to the study and i'll be glad to discuss it. Evolution doesn't just happen because you have a lot of generations, there has to be a reason to evolve, and there is also no guarantee that the right mutation will occur to meet that need.

Out of curiousity, do you think the animals such as Ardi and Luci are related to humans? Also do you think we may one day find fossils of humans from 250 million years ago?

sport_122

10-15-2009, 01:08 AM

I must not be making myself clear. It's called inductive reasoning

Outcome: There is a puddle of water on the floor
Previous knowledge: Melted ice creates water
Conclusion: The puddle of water on the floor used to be ice

Obviously the conclusion could very well be wrong. Likewise:

Outcome: Our universe has rules
Previous knowledge: Designers create rules
Conclusion: Our universe was designed

This is equally likely to be incorrect

I hope that clarifies

You're right I'm no expert on Dawkins but non randomness does not mean consciousness or "pseudo-consciousness". If the animals of a species have different height legs and the ones with short legs die in a flood while the ones with long legs survive, the survival was non random but it doesn't mean there was a conscious decision to kill the short leg ones.

I agree that losing abilities does not prove evolution but you're original post was saying that its evidence to disprove evolution and I was just saying it's not. Before you said "why would animals lose abilities if there was evolution" and now you are answering your own question.

As to the fruit flies, send me a link to the study and i'll be glad to discuss it. Evolution doesn't just happen because you have a lot of generations, there has to be a reason to evolve, and there is also no guarantee that the right mutation will occur to meet that need.

Out of curiousity, do you think the animals such as Ardi and Luci are related to humans? Also do you think we may one day find fossils of humans from 250 million years ago?

Its late so I'm gonna be brief...on the subject of reasoning.

there is always a large number of possibilities. but lets say for instance that its not just the puddle of water on the floor, but the puddle of water sits next to the fridge, and the ice box is open and there is a cup sitting on the counter that is full of ice water. And a few moments ago, your spouse came in from a long jog in the hot sun. etc etc.

You give an example as if I believe there is only one piece of evidence that points to a God. I believe there are many things that lead to this conclusion. I believe there are some physical, some logical, and some philosophical and just like any other case of law, or discussion which takes evidence, to look at a single piece could lead one to believe that there is not enough to be convinced or to draw the same conclusion. But the goal has to be to provide several pieces of evidence which point to the same conclusion.

History provides us with eyewitness testimony in the case of Christ (whether you accept it or not), philosophy shows us that our social inclinations and actions follow a greater meaning, science provides us with numerous unanswerable questions and an ever growing truth, that the more we learn the more complex our universe becomes as all of our discovery presents more questions (which is opposite of the simple to complex model demonstrated by evolutionists-meaning life does not start off with the simplicity of a single sell, it starts with the complexity of DNA, which has been called a language in its own right) and as far as we know right now language especially complex language has only been demonstrated to come from conscious minds. But i digress, the evidence exists in all fields of observation for men.

Now it seems that you believe that it is possible for a complex process of carefully orchestrating change in the biology of life to happen naturally. This process is not made up of any specific pattern that has been demonstrated, it is not made up of any means that have been fully documented with any hard "smoking gun" type evidence. It is a broken history and a single thought process which based on the hard science and numbers does not and has not made the case without stretching the interpretation of data. BTW, if this complex process is specific and not random as you seem to agree with Dawkins about, it demonstrates a logic, a methodology, meaning that as you look at it, you can pull logic and theory out of it. this is giving the process the ability to reason logically. If this is the process (generalized of course) then we have just applied a consciousness to this. We could use the same phrasing to describe the actions of a living individual, but try to use it to explain an inanimate object. What makes this process so specific in its intent?

lastly, I do not think that luci and ardi are "pre-humans" and are a part of our ancestry and I don't expect 250 million year old men to surface. I don't think human civilization is that old. I think if we were we would have MUCH MUCH more evidence of it. About lucy and ardi, I think that, much like many would agree, science is looking for something specific. We are trying to find something to fill in a gap. We have been doing so for so long that it is very easy for us to begin to force the issue. I believe that this is the case with the two discoveries. I believe it happens with religion as well.

My point in all of this is not to say that something can be proven one way or the other. I just think my worldview or universe view is supported with much more evidence than many realize. Maybe its because we are in america or maybe its because the evidence that is out there is taken for granted in a passive consumer driven society, but as I weigh the logic of our physical, philosophical, and sociological world I cannot reasonably say that i believe that the cosmos, the spiritual makeup of mankind, and the revelations of the supernatural existence are not the plan of a conscious transcendent mind. Even the very fact that upon our own understanding, men began to ask the questions of our cosmos, and the first questions were not based in a naturalist mindset. we went straight to spiritual. No other life takes this approach to understanding.

bu villain

10-15-2009, 03:16 PM

If you believe there is a lot of evidence for God I can't argue that general statement, only specifics. We seem to somewhat be spiraling away from the original issues and arguing logic without regard to the original reason it was brought up.

I have no problem with people believing in a God per se and I have no motive for believing there to be no God or not. I don't feel I would live my life any differently either way. The existence of a God doesn't make this universe any less or more amazing or beautiful. My mind is open should something occur to prove the existence of God but until I find that evidence, I can't just believe He/She/It exists.

If you don't mind, I'm curious as to your answers on these questions. If they don't apply to your concept of God, just say so.

1. What motivates an all powerful being to do anything?
2. Why would you choose to believe in an all powerful benevolent god as apposed to an unfathomably powerful alien who has merely created the universe as an experiment?
3. Do people have free will? If so, why would God give us free only to punish us for making choices He doesn't approve of?

trini_gsr

10-15-2009, 04:56 PM

If you don't mind, I'm curious as to your answers on these questions. If they don't apply to your concept of God, just say so.

1. What motivates an all powerful being to do anything?
2. Why would you choose to believe in an all powerful benevolent god as apposed to an unfathomably powerful alien who has merely created the universe as an experiment?
3. Do people have free will? If so, why would God give us free only to punish us for making choices He doesn't approve of?

i know you didn't ask me specifically but i've been following your debate and like to add my :2cents: . me and sport_122's worldviews are sorta close, although he probably won't agree with my replies:

1) i obviously can't definitively answer this question because i'm not all-powerful LOL. but here's my opinion. i've said this in another thread here, maybe this one...but i believe one of the motivating factors for the creation of cognitive life in the universe is because of the joy that results from watching it grow/evolve.

in a way, it's the same reason why we as adults choose to have or adopt children. our lives might be complete - we might be financially independent, in good health, etc - but to bring a life into the world and watch him/her grow into an adult and share those experiences brings a lot of joy. it's kinda hard to explain it exactly but anyone who has kids (i have a son) will understand exactly what i mean.

now sport_122 and others will argue that God is perfect and thereby unchanging, but i also believe God to be dynamic. it's not to say God is growing or changing from the experiences of his creation, but it makes sense to me that He would feel a sense of satisfaction from it, like a proud parent i guess...

this of course is all speculation on my part...based on what i've learned so far. i have no way of proving it but it appeals to my logic.

2) good question. ultimately we don't KNOW the answer because we don't know what kind of being God is. my worldview starts by assuming God is the beginning of all things - whether he is an alien kid and the universe is his ant farm or not is outside the scope of my worldview so i can't comment on it.

the universe *is* God's experiment/pet-project though. whether He is benevolent or not. it is a figment of God's imagination - but for God, thought can immediately manifest itself into our reality. humans have the same ability but on a much more limited scale. but that's another discussion.

3) ppl do have free will. i don't think it is a matter of God punishing us per se. i think it boils down to the universal laws of action and reaction. the short answer is, the universe is designed to function according to God's will - physically and spiritually. if you CHOOSE to operate outside of these parameters, then just like anything else, those actions have consequences. this doesn't take into account the random sh!t that happens to everybody, good or bad. this is a subject that's debated a lot.

gotta go...more later

BABY J

10-15-2009, 05:19 PM

Damn God has a SERIOUS ego problem.

"I'm God. Let me create some things. I'll then create some other things to ensure that those things live... ohhhh... 85 years or so. I'd let them live longer, but shit I get tired of the same things stroking my ego. I need new things to be born so that they can stroke it as well. During that time on this rock, those things that I created MUST tell me that I'm the shit and praise me. And if those fuckers don't - I'll kill 'em. Why?

B/c I'm GOD bitch!!"

Makes sense to me.

trini_gsr

10-15-2009, 06:28 PM

Damn God has a SERIOUS ego problem.

Makes sense to me.

lol. you just figuring this out? :D

BABY J

10-15-2009, 07:19 PM

^^ Oh I've known it since I was 10. LOL

sport_122

10-16-2009, 12:23 PM

My mind is open should something occur to prove the existence of God but until I find that evidence, I can't just believe He/She/It exists.

I guess I just believe that this evidence is already here, but I can respect your views.

If you don't mind, I'm curious as to your answers on these questions. If they don't apply to your concept of God, just say so.

1. What motivates an all powerful being to do anything?
2. Why would you choose to believe in an all powerful benevolent god as apposed to an unfathomably powerful alien who has merely created the universe as an experiment?
3. Do people have free will? If so, why would God give us free only to punish us for making choices He doesn't approve of?

Great questions...

1. Depends on the character that you believe that being has. I believe that God by definition has to do certain things to maintain His own integrity. Some of these things include anger, jealousy and other emotion type things that we would consider to be bad characteristics, but are justified in the context of which God demonstrates. I believe that there is more to creation than just the universe as we currently understand it. but I'd like to put forward the thought that God is not God if he allows people to act outside of his law, or if he is okay with people worshiping and uplifting other deities above him. these two things under mind the Godhood of God. If he falters on these rules he demonstrates that he is not God at all because he has relinqushed authority to another. Think about parents that you see who relinquish there authority to their children. the kids become the authority unto themselves and the parent has to fight to regain it. This is demonstrated all over the place.

2. Because I don't see reasonable evidence to assume that the universe is designed by the types of aliens that fly around in saucers...even though I believe they are very real, I don't believe that a community of aliens would be exempt from explaining their origins. But the simple answer is that there is no evidence for that...unless you want to call God an alien because he does not originate on earth. But there is evidence that suggests, by theorists that extra terrestrial beings acknowledge a higher presence...but the UFO stuff is a thread that is waiting for BabyJ to get started...I would love to talk about that because it is very intriguing to me and I believe that our biblical history has evidence of extra terrestrial life visiting earth.

3) ppl do have free will. i don't think it is a matter of God punishing us per se. i think it boils down to the universal laws of action and reaction. the short answer is, the universe is designed to function according to God's will - physically and spiritually. if you CHOOSE to operate outside of these parameters, then just like anything else, those actions have consequences. this doesn't take into account the random sh!t that happens to everybody, good or bad. this is a subject that's debated a lot.

yeah we sort of agree on the other questions but not this one.

3. I don't believe people have free will. This is deeper than I can go, but two free wills cannot exist in this case. As soon as the two wills oppose one another then freedom is no longer for one or both of those wills. So the philosophical answer is no. Based on my worldview, my will cannot trump that of God therefore it cannot be free. I can only do that which is allowed based on the will of God. My will is subject to another therefore I cannot have a free will. I do not believe that I can act outside of his will. Even though I have the ability to make choices, the options on the table are limited. They are limited to the revelation of the universe that has provided me. I will not choose to do things that I have no knowledge or awareness of. ***Think of a multiple choice question where you can choose A,B,C, or D, but you don't have the ability to write in your answer. You demonstrate the ability to choose freely, but your options are limited based on what has been provided to you. I wrote more about this in a previous post in this thread.

trini_gsr

10-16-2009, 01:31 PM

1. Depends on the character that you believe that being has. I believe that God by definition has to do certain things to maintain His own integrity. Some of these things include anger, jealousy and other emotion type things that we would consider to be bad characteristics, but are justified in the context of which God demonstrates. I believe that there is more to creation than just the universe as we currently understand it. but I'd like to put forward the thought that God is not God if he allows people to act outside of his law, or if he is okay with people worshiping and uplifting other deities above him. these two things under mind the Godhood of God. If he falters on these rules he demonstrates that he is not God at all because he has relinqushed authority to another. Think about parents that you see who relinquish there authority to their children. the kids become the authority unto themselves and the parent has to fight to regain it. This is demonstrated all over the place.

just because you choose to defy God doesn't in any way shape or form undermine his Godliness or ultimate authority. it doesn't change the nature of who or what He is. to use your example with kids, my son has the FREE WILL to defy me if he wants, but because i currently define the parameters of his immediate reality (lol), if he CHOOSES not to obey my rules, those actions come with specific consequences (being grounded, no tv, etc).

the universal law of cause and effect still works, even in his 6 yr old context. whether he wants to listen to me or not, it still doesn't change the situation (i'm his dad and I make the d@mn rules). my authority isn't remotely in question or even debatable :D. either he can listen to me and live pretty comfortably, or defy me and have a pretty miserable young life. it's his call. LOL.

it works the same for God. it's not a matter of whether God is "okay" with us defying Him. The parameters for how the universe operate have already been set. There's NOTHING we can do to undermine what God has established. It already IS what it IS. We've been left with the ability to choose. You can either work in harmony with it, or fight against it and make things harder on yourself. It's our choice.

3. I don't believe people have free will. This is deeper than I can go, but two free wills cannot exist in this case. As soon as the two wills oppose one another then freedom is no longer for one or both of those wills. So the philosophical answer is no. Based on my worldview, my will cannot trump that of God therefore it cannot be free. I can only do that which is allowed based on the will of God. My will is subject to another therefore I cannot have a free will. I do not believe that I can act outside of his will. Even though I have the ability to make choices, the options on the table are limited. They are limited to the revelation of the universe that has provided me. I will not choose to do things that I have no knowledge or awareness of. ***Think of a multiple choice question where you can choose A,B,C, or D, but you don't have the ability to write in your answer. You demonstrate the ability to choose freely, but your options are limited based on what has been provided to you. I wrote more about this in a previous post in this thread.

yeah, we do disagree here, but just a bit. maybe a better word for "free will" as i see it is self-determination. i agree with you, we don't have ultimate freedom because we have to work within the context of the reality we were created in. our universe operates by rules that we have no control over.

but within that context, we have the freedom to make whatever choices we want. however, the choices that we make are subject to the rules of cause and effect, so these choices come with consequences that are destined to happen as a result. free will and destiny to me are 2 sides to the same coin - they are intertwined. here's an example - everyone born is destined to die at some point, but how long you live and what you do with your life is subject to your free will.

bu villain

10-16-2009, 03:23 PM

Interesting responses...maybe as a couple followup questions:

1. Why must God be all powerful instead of just unfathomably smart and powerful, although not infinitely?
2. Why can their only be one God and not two? (This question is only relevant if you do not feel God must be all powerful)

BABY J

10-16-2009, 04:26 PM

3. I don't believe people have free will. This is deeper than I can go, but two free wills cannot exist in this case. As soon as the two wills oppose one another then freedom is no longer for one or both of those wills. So the philosophical answer is no. Based on my worldview, my will cannot trump that of God therefore it cannot be free. I can only do that which is allowed based on the will of God. My will is subject to another therefore I cannot have a free will. I do not believe that I can act outside of his will. Even though I have the ability to make choices, the options on the table are limited. They are limited to the revelation of the universe that has provided me. I will not choose to do things that I have no knowledge or awareness of. ***Think of a multiple choice question where you can choose A,B,C, or D, but you don't have the ability to write in your answer. You demonstrate the ability to choose freely, but your options are limited based on what has been provided to you. I wrote more about this in a previous post in this thread.

Hmmm... let's say that there is one "correct" answer.

If you choose wrong and go to hell b/c of it - what role did God play in you going to hell- he limited you to 1 right answer, and 3 wrong - yet allowed you to choose wrong. He also PROVIDED the 3 incorrect answers.

Elaborate

IndianStig

10-16-2009, 04:37 PM

Damn, I was prolly fucked up when I made this thread. Hahahahaha.

God is questionable....

trini_gsr

10-16-2009, 04:55 PM

Interesting responses...maybe as a couple followup questions:

1. Why must God be all powerful instead of just unfathomably smart and powerful, although not infinitely?

From our perspective, it kinda doesn't matter if God is reaaaallllly powerful but maybe not infinitely so, etc. It's so far outside of our potential that it's basically infinite by our standards anyhow.

2. Why can their only be one God and not two? (This question is only relevant if you do not feel God must be all powerful)

This is actually a good question. The Bible implies that God had an audience (of at least one) when he created the universe. There's different schools of thought on this, one of them being that God 1st created (or chose to define himself) as 3 distinct beings - Himself, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And these 3 beings are responsible for the creation of the universe. That's why Jesus is called God's "only begotten" son. Other religions have other ideas, and a lot of them include a plurality of Godlike beings responsible for the universe's creation.

I have a developing opinion about this though. I think that God existed in the absolute in the beginning (everything = God, and there is no basis for differentiation), and He decided to redefine His existence in the relative.

Another way to say it is before creation, the totality of existence = everything = something + nothing/void = God. God then decided to take the "something" part of himself and contain or define it against (or relative to) the "nothing" - which I think is what we currently call the Big Bang. This happened on a physical and spiritual/conscious level. The latter part being the basis for cognitive life (or souls) in the universe.

It's really abstract and probably sounds a little crazy and I haven't finished fleshing that idea out, but that's where I am right now with it :screwy:. This has really been an interesting conversation...

Schugg

10-16-2009, 10:50 PM

ill find out when i die. as far as im concerned the only place you go when you die is 6ft under, and everything else becomes what it was before you were born, nothing.

sport_122

10-17-2009, 12:16 PM

just because you choose to defy God doesn't in any way shape or form undermine his Godliness or ultimate authority. it doesn't change the nature of who or what He is. to use your example with kids, my son has the FREE WILL to defy me if he wants, but because i currently define the parameters of his immediate reality (lol), if he CHOOSES not to obey my rules, those actions come with specific consequences (being grounded, no tv, etc).

the universal law of cause and effect still works, even in his 6 yr old context. whether he wants to listen to me or not, it still doesn't change the situation (i'm his dad and I make the d@mn rules). my authority isn't remotely in question or even debatable :D. either he can listen to me and live pretty comfortably, or defy me and have a pretty miserable young life. it's his call. LOL.

it works the same for God. it's not a matter of whether God is "okay" with us defying Him. The parameters for how the universe operate have already been set. There's NOTHING we can do to undermine what God has established. It already IS what it IS. We've been left with the ability to choose. You can either work in harmony with it, or fight against it and make things harder on yourself. It's our choice.

yeah, we do disagree here, but just a bit. maybe a better word for "free will" as i see it is self-determination. i agree with you, we don't have ultimate freedom because we have to work within the context of the reality we were created in. our universe operates by rules that we have no control over.

but within that context, we have the freedom to make whatever choices we want. however, the choices that we make are subject to the rules of cause and effect, so these choices come with consequences that are destined to happen as a result. free will and destiny to me are 2 sides to the same coin - they are intertwined. here's an example - everyone born is destined to die at some point, but how long you live and what you do with your life is subject to your free will.

Your actions do not affect God or his Godhood because you cannot act according to your own will, but allowing you to defy his authority is in the character of God, but doing so without penalty is NOT and this is were we see God punishing nations for their choices. Much like a law that you ignore. If the police just let you speed then your authority has trumped theirs with regards to speeding. When the character of God, as i believe is revealed to us, is demonstrated he very intent on making sure that you understand who is boss.

also if we don't have ultimate freedom then we don't have free will. If we don't have the ability to make any choice and to know and act on the infinite possibilities without any worries of consequences then we do not have free will. Our will is subjected to another authority. Whether you believe its just the laws of nature or you believe its God. We cannot do whatever we want. No matter how determined you are to do so, you cannot cut out your own organs and give them to someone else and survive. You cannot skydive without some sort of parachute, you cannot and will never make a decision to do something that you have no knowledge of. Free choices within limitations is not free will. Thats just the simplicity of it.

Hmmm... let's say that there is one "correct" answer.

If you choose wrong and go to hell b/c of it - what role did God play in you going to hell- he limited you to 1 right answer, and 3 wrong - yet allowed you to choose wrong. He also PROVIDED the 3 incorrect answers.

Elaborate

Not sure what the question is that presents the one correct answer? what is the question?

This is a very difficult question to answer for people who already don't understand the character of God (or who want to argue for his non-existence through emotional appeals) as presented in the Bible. But in short, there is much more to the question you ask than can be covered this quickly.

For instance, the whole thing about salvation. Most people think that YOU choose to be "saved". I don't. I think its grace I think that the decision is a response to things that God does in your life and in your heart. I think without him doing those things, then you will never make the choice.

I also believe there is another thing missing. The understanding that we are incapable of attaining a level of spiritual salvation without God. So in essence I believe we are on our way to hell before God intervenes and his intervention is what saves us. You understand the difference in that order?

Then we get into the mindset that some take...if God is so good then why does he send people to hell? Well because he cannot defy his own character or he defaults on his godhood.

Now to answer the question:
I believe that a just (as in- the embodiment of Justice) God created law. A part of law is justice and certainty of punishment for breaking the law. It seems like when people want to argue with the existence or character of God, they try to fault him for being who he has to be by definition. We get upset with God because he punishes and condemns us for breaking his laws. This is not the sign of a tyrannical God, it is the sign of a just God. Even now in our societies we are talking about the lack of justice. People wanting to let a child molester go, a kidnapper walks free, murderers walk out of our court system everyday and politician...well we wont even go there, but we are shocked by these things. Yet when we run across God and he does not waver in his law and in the implementation of his justice then we are shocked.

So in essence what we are seeing is not a question where god provided three wrong answers. He actually added in the ability to select a right answer when none was previously provided. Why was none provided, because the standard of Gods law is out of our reach on our own power. God created a law that is presented as the highest law. We created laws based off of his law. We cannot live up to our own standards let alone his. But maybe just maybe he didn't say I am going to give them one right answer and three wrong ones. Maybe he said "I see that they have no right answer because of the law that I gave them, I will provide them with one." This action of grace is much more in the character of the God that is seen in the Bible.

BabyJ...if I send you my number could we discuss this one by phone...its way more involved than even this, and I am always learning more about this one everyday.

Interesting responses...maybe as a couple followup questions:

1. Why must God be all powerful instead of just unfathomably smart and powerful, although not infinitely?
2. Why can their only be one God and not two? (This question is only relevant if you do not feel God must be all powerful)

You ask great questions, but the answers are more in depth than I can really go on a forum like this. This is better as a verbal discussion.
1. Because an all intelligent being without power has not ability to follow through on his planned justice. To be just and to be righteous he must have the authority in power to do so. A court with now police and no agents handing down rules of law is a powerless court. It is only when those rules and law can be enforced that the law is taken seriously. That is a sociological thing. He has to have the power to assert his authority over us and to enforce the laws which he has decreed. Again this depends on your understanding of the character of God. I don't believe God created and then stepped back. I believe he is much more involved.

Also we can only define infinite based on our universe and the understanding of how it works. There are postulations about other universes etc, but even in understanding those we are going to be limited to the understanding presented by the universe we live in. If God is the creator of this universe and all things in it then when do we come to the point of being able to define his (unfathombly-which is the same as infinite) mind? We don't because the nature of the universe is such that we live in it. We cannot understand a universe outside of it because the rules (hypothetically) would change, and we cannot get our hands around this one to make fully understood observations. By that methodology I believe it is reasonable for us to assume that the creator who is described as infinite, and non created, would hold all of the knowledge of his creation and then some as he can exist outside of it and in it at the same time.
2. For the same reason as the first. If there are two separate Gods then the authority gets split which way. Also the claims that I believe God has made about himself could not be true...in that he claims to be God of gods, Lord of lords, King of kings. If there are two separate Gods then the idea that Gods power is equally match eliminates the ability to be God as I think we all are perceiving.

sport_122

10-17-2009, 12:20 PM

This is actually a good question. The Bible implies that God had an audience (of at least one) when he created the universe.

this may be a popular thought but it is very clear that the Bible says that the spirit and Christ were present at the creation. Yes they are all the same according to the Bible. but it never gives an account of the creation of Christ. Nor the creation of the holy spirit.

And both of them are in the creation account. Christ"in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God" this is referring to Christ.

also in the beginning the holy spirit covered the earth upon its creation so it was there as well.

sorry. I had to interject this because it is not Biblically accurate to say that Christ or the holy spirit was created. The Bible puts both of them there with the Father during creation.

trini_gsr

10-17-2009, 12:48 PM

sorry. I had to interject this because it is not Biblically accurate to say that Christ or the holy spirit was created. The Bible puts both of them there with the Father during creation.

of the physical universe, yes. we know all 3 were present THEN. but whether God created Jesus or the Holy Spirit BEFOREHAND is definitely a debatable point. You can argue it either way (and it has been for centuries).

trini_gsr

10-17-2009, 01:45 PM

Your actions do not affect God or his Godhood because you cannot act according to your own will, but allowing you to defy his authority is in the character of God, but doing so without penalty is NOT and this is were we see God punishing nations for their choices. Much like a law that you ignore. If the police just let you speed then your authority has trumped theirs with regards to speeding. When the character of God, as i believe is revealed to us, is demonstrated he very intent on making sure that you understand who is boss.

also if we don't have ultimate freedom then we don't have free will. If we don't have the ability to make any choice and to know and act on the infinite possibilities without any worries of consequences then we do not have free will. Our will is subjected to another authority. Whether you believe its just the laws of nature or you believe its God. We cannot do whatever we want. No matter how determined you are to do so, you cannot cut out your own organs and give them to someone else and survive. You cannot skydive without some sort of parachute, you cannot and will never make a decision to do something that you have no knowledge of. Free choices within limitations is not free will. Thats just the simplicity of it.

our definition of what free will is clearly differs. because i think that free will is the ability to make whatever CHOICES you want, accepting the consequences that comes as a result. You can CHOOSE to skydive without a parachute, but in doing so you realize will probably die. You can CHOOSE to speed on the hwy, but in doing so you realize that eventually you will get a ticket. A slave might not have any freedom, but yet he can still CHOOSE to defy his master, although doing so might mean punishment or death. Just because you can't control the consequences of your choice, doesn't make that choice any less yours to make. This is what it means to have free will.

sport_122

10-17-2009, 08:24 PM

of the physical universe, yes. we know all 3 were present THEN. but whether God created Jesus or the Holy Spirit BEFOREHAND is definitely a debatable point. You can argue it either way (and it has been for centuries).

yes...but not based off of the Bible. the Bible does not give an account for the creation of Christ or the HS.

our definition of what free will is clearly differs. because i think that free will is the ability to make whatever CHOICES you want, accepting the consequences that comes as a result. You can CHOOSE to skydive without a parachute, but in doing so you realize will probably die. You can CHOOSE to speed on the hwy, but in doing so you realize that eventually you will get a ticket. A slave might not have any freedom, but yet he can still CHOOSE to defy his master, although doing so might mean punishment or death. Just because you can't control the consequences of your choice, doesn't make that choice any less yours to make. This is what it means to have free will.

Again, please read your own definition. You are describing choice. Having a free will is demonstrated in more than just choices. Free will leaves you open to infinite possibilities based on a full understanding and freedom from that which you wish to avoid.

Maybe if give me an example of what you would define as "not having free will" I could see your viewpoint a little different. But I really don't think that your will is purely made up of choices. Your will is made up of desire, choice, law, and your character. You cannot do all that you desire, your character is shaped by the world around you, law dictates all that we do and the way we view our universe, and choices are limited by your knowledge of the possible answers. If you don't know there is option E on the test, you will NEVER answer E therefore your choices are limited by an outside factor.

trini_gsr

10-17-2009, 08:47 PM

yes...but not based off of the Bible. the Bible does not give an account for the creation of Christ or the HS.

no but it can be argued that Christ's creation is implied in the Bible. you're familiar with the arguments for and against this so I don't need to re-hash it here. obviously you're against it :D

Again, please read your own definition. You are describing choice. Having a free will is demonstrated in more than just choices. Free will leaves you open to infinite possibilities based on a full understanding and freedom from that which you wish to avoid.

Maybe if give me an example of what you would define as "not having free will" I could see your viewpoint a little different. But I really don't think that your will is purely made up of choices. Your will is made up of desire, choice, law, and your character. You cannot do all that you desire, your character is shaped by the world around you, law dictates all that we do and the way we view our universe, and choices are limited by your knowledge of the possible answers. If you don't know there is option E on the test, you will NEVER answer E therefore your choices are limited by an outside factor.

Yeah, it seems like we just disagree on the definition of free will. going by your definition I see why you would say we don't have free will. only God would. i would say then given this definition, that God has given us free choice to determine our destiny.

sport_122

10-19-2009, 08:28 AM

no but it can be argued that Christ's creation is implied in the Bible. you're familiar with the arguments for and against this so I don't need to re-hash it here. obviously you're against it :D

Yeah, it seems like we just disagree on the definition of free will. going by your definition I see why you would say we don't have free will. only God would. i would say then given this definition, that God has given us free choice to determine our destiny.

Where? Im familiar with he argument, but where is it implied? Christ made claims to be God. Therefore the implied creation would fall flat on its face when looking at the references of Christ that are reflected back to creation... either way...I can agree this is something some say, but those who say it say it do so without evidence that stands up to scrutiny. The nice thing about this is that we can reference the Bible and give an exact answer to this.

I agree with you on the free will thing mostly. its just the self determined destiny that I can't really get my hands around. but that's okay. we can agree on this, and I think we both see one anothers perspective.

BTW. I am going to start another thread really quick to handle this kind of conversation so this thread can stay on topic.

PSINXS

11-09-2009, 04:42 PM

i use to I guess. god was never real to me as far back as i can remember. and now the concept of prayer and god is elusive. i believe in satan more than i do god. at least evil makes more sense than this "good" thats suppose to come out of existing.

Wurm

11-17-2009, 04:08 PM

negative

JDMbabe

11-21-2009, 11:20 PM

i sure do, no doubt about it!

bodhi

11-27-2009, 12:08 AM

You have to differentiate between the arguments for the existence of god and arguments over the validity of organized religion.

As far as god goes, the argument is moot.
God, as most people use the term, refers to an all-powerful being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. The human mind is a finite thing, incapable of conceiving of the infinite, so how can one begin to prove or disprove the existence of an infinite being?
It cannot be said for certain either way, so arguing about it is pointless.

Now arguing about the validity of organized religion--christ, if people can't figure out when they are lying to themselves, how do you expect them to know when they are hearing the truth?

Man is fallible. Man wrote the bible. Man is capable of lies and deceit, and of being deceived.
Why trust in the works of man, when he tells you the work is "of god?" Everything is of god, and being of god makes the bible no more a source of truth than Beowulf, or Le Morte De Arthur, or any other myths. Take Scientology. It has fiercely dedicated followers that believe what is an obvious pack of poorly written lies put together by a failed Sci-Fi author. What kind of horseshit is that?!

BABY J

11-27-2009, 12:45 PM

^^ Me likes the new guy. :)

geoff

12-02-2009, 12:22 AM

ians s14

12-08-2009, 09:43 PM

Yes

sti_cham

12-08-2009, 09:43 PM

there is no god/ just man

Reaper

12-09-2009, 03:13 PM

God has changed my life in an amazing way and is always looking out for me. I have plenty of friends that disagree, and thats their choice. Respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours. End of story.

geoff

12-09-2009, 08:54 PM

Reaper

12-10-2009, 03:10 PM

at some point in time though reaper, God expects us to share the good news of salvation, to spread the gospel, and be disciples for Him. as a believer i know your probably just as disgusted with whats going on these days as i am. we have the commandment to spread the word and try and bring as many souls to salvation as we can before Jesus calls His people home

Oh, believe me I know. I have open discussions/debates with my friends of other faiths or non-believers all together. But, I by no means force Christianity down someones throat. I personally believe that's why their are more atheists in the world today..I know MANY people who grew up devout Christians but now have no faith because it was shoved in their faces. I just go about spreading the word in a different way. If you don't like it, by no means will I force it upon you. Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to go to heaven, obviously that's the point..but, in the end thats up to them and God. If they have questions, I'll answer. If they need guidance I'll do my best. I have personally bought friends "The Purpose Driven Life" when they had questions and just said "here, read this, come back to me in 40 days and we'll talk". Some turned to Christ, some are heading the right direction and others stalemated..But, non were hurt by it and just saw it as a different point of view.

I guess I just want to take a different approach on things.

geoff

12-10-2009, 08:29 PM

i agree with you my friend. its just that i recently saw a study that less than 2% of american christians actually share their faith with someone. it made me sick to my stomach. most people wanna reap the benefits of being Godly but dont wanna put any work into it ya know? im meeting with a couple guys from here sometime soon and wanna do a bible study. you interested?

Reaper

12-11-2009, 10:31 AM

shoot me a PM as to what day and time. I am leaving for Florida Sunday and have some graduation parties I have to go to Saturday.

geoff

12-12-2009, 08:09 PM

sounds good

TheChosenOne

12-14-2009, 04:09 AM

I am God... And if I'm not, somebody aint gettin there money back!

bodhi

12-16-2009, 12:44 PM

i would agree with furry rabbit....except, the bible is not man made. it IS the Word of God given through the Holy Spirit to men to write down. the Holy Bible is valid, truth, and infallible. i say this with these points. the Holy Bible is by far the greatest work of literature ever. if one ACTUALLY takes the time to sit down and read it through you can see that it, being written by several different authors at different times can not be copied. no man in that time had the know how or the knowledge to write a book that doesnt contradict itself from begining to end and that is been relevant to each generation for thousands of years, and then come the prophecies, they are not vague in meaning and cannot be applied to any situation, they are descriptive and up to this point dead on accurate, just look at the world around you and you will see what im talking about. the mark of the beast for one, "and he caused everyman to recieve a mark to buy and sell goods" (short version) exactly where this world is headed to, an implantable chip that will hold all your information and allow you to buy and sell

The bible was written by flawed humans. A story to keep humans from doing horrible things to eachother. Everyone interprets the bible differently, and this is clearly obvious. It was humans attempt at passing some morals on to others. In such brutal times, the only thing that could get through to people was the fear of some horrible shit happening to them by a powerful evil monster with his own torture dungeon to keep you, and being good would be rewarded with heaven.

Passing morals onto dumbshit people is good, taking these crazy-ass magical stories as anything but a crazy-ass magical story used to instill fear apon a developing world of savages is your own poor judgement or the poor judgement of the people that forced all this bullshit into your young developing brain.

Does "God" have anything to do with the "bible god" or whatever scripture you have been raised with? Doubtful, as humans have proven themselves to be liars. We are at a point that humans can be quite good and moral without thinking you "need" to be for fear of eternal damnnation.

I am generally a good moral person that puts others before myself. I feel, whatever happens to me when I die is the same thing that happens to every human of every religion, no matter how deep their faith.

Can I prove it to be true? Of course not.
Can anyone prove it to be false? Of course not.

BABY J

12-16-2009, 12:47 PM

^^ Please stop making sense. It's insulting to Christians.

bodhi

12-16-2009, 01:29 PM

I can't help it, bro. It just comes naturally to me.
Personally I thought this kind of view point was shared by many people who walk around with a properly working brain... I mean no one forced me to think this way, I just "naturally" developed into it.
Process started at a very, very early age.

Austin?

12-16-2009, 06:15 PM

sometime

geoff

12-16-2009, 08:32 PM

bodhi

12-17-2009, 01:37 PM

furry rabbit i was not "raised" to believe in Christ or what the bible says. i found God when i was 19. i looked on my own without any outside influences.

you say it was written by flawed men. the bible was written long ago and at different points in time. if you took the time to read it you would see that it is written in such a way that its literal and figurative and has deeper meaning, people thousands of years ago just didnt have the knowledge or skills to write the way the bible was written.

i dont understand how people can say and believe without a shadow of a doubt that the bible was man made to put morals into a developing world and to control them. Thats your point of view but i disagree. my view is this, the Bible was written by men that were spoken to and moved upon by God. He did not leave His creation alone to figure things out by themselves. He gave them a manual and plan to live by, along the line mankind didnt want to live holy any more and came up with their own ideas and theories and their own selfish lives drew them away from their maker. that brings us to today. if the bible was written by men to control and instill fear then why these days does government and society as a whole write it off and push it to the backround?

men are not good by nature, we are evil and selfish creatures, you can say that your good and do good for others, but take all the things you have away and put you in a struggle or a crisis situation and we would all resort back to our primitive natures. would you lay down your life for an innocent person you have never met?

Why does "God" have to be some intelligent force that somehow cares about each and every human to you?
God most likely is an energy that is completely indifferent to our self important species. God is most likely nature on a much larger scale than our puny brains can comprehend. God is most likely an energy that keeps cycles in the universe moving.

Who the hell knows. All I know is that I am just a human, and for me to claim an obsolute knowledge about such things is very foolish.

I am human, I know nothing more than what effects me in this life. Everything else claimed by humans is merely speculation, and some poor speculation at that. Bottom line is that everyone interprets the bible to fit their agenda. Just agree that God is the universe. Your God can be an entity, your God can be whatever the hell you want, but logically it cannot be what the bible says it to be. That's just ridiculous.

geoff

12-17-2009, 02:26 PM

actually logically God can be what the Bible says. God can not just be energy, the Creator of everything would have to have some logic in order to create the laws of physics that bind this universe. The Creator would have had to put a purpose to everything in order for things to be the way they are. the Creator would have had to have motivation in order to create something otherwise the law of cause and effect would not hold any value. your idea of God as an energy is no different then the big bang theory, some force or energy for no reason decided to blow up and create everything and still for no reason sustains everything.

bu villain

12-17-2009, 03:21 PM

your idea of God as an energy is no different then the big bang theory, some force or energy for no reason decided to blow up and create everything and still for no reason sustains everything.

I don't think giving a completely innacurate summary of the big bang theory is going to help your cause here. Science is predicated on cause and effect, absolutely no scientist in the world believes things happen for no reason. Just because they don't know what every cause is, doesn't mean they think one doesn't exist.

geoff

12-17-2009, 04:26 PM

bodhi

12-18-2009, 09:00 AM

that is true but my question is this. how is the big bang theory accepted as a theory for the origin of life if it just leads you back to the question of who made it happen or who or what put it into motion

This is the same thing with God.
If the BB theory is true, and there's strong evidence that it is, but for some strange reason had a creator--then who created it? It's a never ending cycle of questions. There's no possible way that a "being" can "be" just because. God doesn't have a creator, doesn't have an origin, doesn't have a comparable force, so technically, from what I got from you, you're saying that there is only one. One!? I mean, you cannot be serious, can you?

actually logically God can be what the Bible says. God can not just be energy, the Creator of everything would have to have some logic in order to create the laws of physics that bind this universe. The Creator would have had to put a purpose to everything in order for things to be the way they are. the Creator would have had to have motivation in order to create something otherwise the law of cause and effect would not hold any value. your idea of God as an energy is no different then the big bang theory, some force or energy for no reason decided to blow up and create everything and still for no reason sustains everything

So God is all. How did you calculate that?
The difference between your calculations and science is that scientific calculations don't not need to describe movements as a series of stills, nor are infinitesimal points in space or time purely abstract math.
When you look at your speedometer in your Trans Am, you're not seeing a representation of where you are, you're seeing a representation of the change of where you are.
The laws of nature work mathematically, the relation between any two characteristics of the universe can be described as such.

The thing is that your God has been getting smaller and smaller the more we learn. The more we learn, the less relevant "it" becomes. Now "he's" restrained it to be literally impossible to exist even partially as a concept. That to concieve makes it vanish, like a leprechaun or some shit. What are we? All inbreds?

geoff

12-18-2009, 12:27 PM

Yes i do believe that there is only ONE GOD. what some people fail to realize is that no matter what theory they come up with they can never provide a source or cause for it all. creationism and christianity state that ONE being greater than the laws of nature or bound by our thoughts or math or laws or theories or even our timeline created everything. He was the source, the cause, the Beggining. its funny how they state we can never truly know or comprehend whats inside a black hole yet people can immediately write off the notion that a supernatural entity created everything we see and know. and that that being stands all alone and gave us instructions on how we are supposed to live and what not. Heck even a manufacturer gives and instruction manual when they make anything.

my God is getting smaller and smaller? im sorry buddy but no other theory has lasted since the beggining of time. we keep learning and learning and coming up with new ideas and theories every day yet my God and the God of many still stands. and where you getting your facts buddy? the Big Bang theory is no longer supported as it used to be. scientist's are actually getting closer to truth and " my God " as intelligent design and creationism are growing.

EJ25RUN

12-18-2009, 12:29 PM

] scientist's are actually getting closer to truth and " my God " as intelligent design and creationism are growing.

No, that's called ignorance.

geoff

12-18-2009, 12:36 PM

ah yes ignorance, and when they all agree that we evolved from monkeys it was called brilliance. i see clearly now.:lmfao:

bu villain

12-18-2009, 01:54 PM

that is true but my question is this. how is the big bang theory accepted as a theory for the origin of life if it just leads you back to the question of who made it happen or who or what put it into motion

It's true that a God could have started the big bang but until there is evidence of that, it can't just be assumed. The biggest difference between people who believe in God and those who don't are that people who don't believe in God aren't afraid to say they don't know answers to many of those big questions.

bu villain

12-18-2009, 01:57 PM

ah yes ignorance, and when they all agree that we evolved from monkeys it was called brilliance. i see clearly now.:lmfao:

Once again, you are completely misrepresenting science and then trying to use it as ammunition. So let me state this clearly:

EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS DO NOT BELIEVE WE EVOLVED FROM MONKEYS!

So please stop with this bastardization of science.

geoff

12-18-2009, 02:42 PM

i just think its funny how you put so much faith in science, i highly doubt you have personally studied all the theories that you believe in. you just accept it as truth because some guy with a degree tells you its so. remember, scientists and philosophers used to think the world was flat. atleast with my belief i have had the opportunity to study MYSELF and make MY OWN conclusion on what i believe. stop trying to seperate God and science. God uses science so we can have some kind of understanding of the world around us

EJ25RUN

12-18-2009, 07:19 PM

geoff

12-18-2009, 07:29 PM

thats the best you got?

EJ25RUN

12-18-2009, 07:32 PM

thats the best you got?

Compared to what you are saying, its more than enough.

Tell me this, did you go to college ever?

geoff

12-18-2009, 07:45 PM

EJ25RUN

12-18-2009, 07:50 PM

im enrolled now taking fire science and paramedic/emt courses. so yes. i have done countless hours of study MYSELF when it comes to science and faith. most people try to seperate the two. i do not, i see science in general as a partial explanation of how " my God" did things. my point is this my friend, scientific theories change constantly as they gain more knowledge or are proved wrong or just are not popular any more. my Christian God has not changed. people still believe now what they did thousands of years ago. He has stood the test of time and always will

I'm trying to see the logic of a person like you sitting in front of a PHd level instructor.

Are you like Adam Sandler from waterboy? Do you take the ideas of a person whose spent their life researching something only to say.....nah, that's not what god said.

Science actually doesn't change constantly, you just say it does because you want to.

If you actually educated yourself with no biased, you'd see that.

geoff

12-18-2009, 08:08 PM

EJ25RUN

12-18-2009, 08:17 PM

science does not change constantly? what planet do you live on man? i could list hundreds of examples in just the last thousand years. the thing about these phd instructors is that they only know what they read in books or heard some other instructor say and you say that im going on what ive been told my whole life? did you not hear me say that I STUDIED this issue MYSELF. its funny how you athiests say that christians or anyone of any faith is blind and closed minded, you are the ones that are bound, bound to what the world wants you to believe, to what you were taught in school ( which the subjects are regulated and controlled ). .

I'm not an atheists for one so don't call me that. I just don't like in a mental box like you.

For two, i know that someone doesn't earn a PHd till they have worked on something of their own. They can credit help on research but the actual work is theirs.

The reason certain aspects of science change is because the factors change. The world is a different place then it was millions of years ago because there is plausible evidence.

I highly doubt anything you studied yourself would be worthwhile as you don't come of as someone that would even give it the time of day. I guess in your eyes gravity is a joke, right?

Lol regulated and controlled.

That darn calculus for example. They never let me do it gods way. (Oh gosh darn):rolleyes:

geoff

12-18-2009, 08:23 PM

EJ25RUN

12-18-2009, 08:28 PM

gravity? calculus? how does any of that say that the christian God is not real? you obviously havent paid attention to when i said that i believe science and God can go hand in hand. once again your arguement on someone with a phd means nothing. their work is judged by others that have ALL been taught the same thing just in a different package.

You think I'm trying to tell you god isn't real?

I beat you are because as I am a person that opposes your opinions, you'd see me as someone that stands against your god. That's just how your train of thought works.

I told you like three times already i'm not an atheist but you failed to read.

I'll try one more time. (In caps for your sake)

I'M NOT TELLING YOU YOUR GOD ISN'T REAL. I'M ALSO NOT TELLING YOU RELIGION SAYS YOUR GOD ISN'T REAL.

Now that i've written that again, i'm making the point that YOU are the one looking at science as the anti christ. Not me. You can worship your god all you like. We can do that in America.

bodhi

12-21-2009, 10:47 AM

First of all I must say that--geoff has proven yet again, that well, there is simply no way that he could ever win an argument when it comes to religion.
Resorting to being as primitive as the bible, being close-minded, clearly being in denial, lacking simple comprehension skills, the list, sadly, goes on and on...
I don't put much effort nowadays on religious topics, because I've been doing so for many years, but's it's totally necessary in this thread. It's 8:06 am as I type, so let us see how long it takes me to completely destroy your God (with facts, links, video clips, ect. ect.), and if you cannot reply back with a "logical" rebuttal, then I'm afraid to say that our discussion will be over. Bring facts- NOT scriptures, personal beliefs, or anything else that serves no purpose but to make the scroller on the right hand side of our monitors smaller, and the page longer.

Are those simple requests understood, geoff? Should be easy for you... seeing as how God created everything and proof of his/hers/it's existence should technically be everywhere, and not just in the bible... riight?

Yes i do believe that there is only ONE GOD. what some people fail to realize is that no matter what theory they come up with they can never provide a source or cause for it all.

Seriously dude, you should start treating the "Submit Reply" button like it costs you money, because every one of your posts makes absolutely no sense at all! You are simply posting up a personal belief, and refuse to accept or even acknowledge an intellectual rebuttal from anyone who has posted against you.
Like you've said: "I do believe..." just because you believe that there is only "ONE" God doesn't make it so. Just because YOU think God is the reason behind life, and that there is no other explanation for life being what it is doesn't make it true. You're still a young guy who still has much to experience in life.
Throughout your life, you might ask God to assist you during your hard times, but at the end you are the only one who'll be able to help yourself.
You've said that you did not grow into religion, but that you found God on your own. Did you venture on some quest, barefooted with only a sword and a shield, or did you simply just get yourself in a tough situation, and eventually found the bible--and couldn't help but to continue reading. So it changed your prespective on life.

Even if that's not how it happened the truth is this:

When things go bad - people turn to God.
When things go well - people praise God.
When someone is lost - they talk to God.
When someone is hopeful - they pray to God.
When someone is lonely or afraid - they talk to God

It all comes down to this: God is simply an emotion one creates to deal with uncertainty. The human mind does not like leaving things at "I don't know." It's frustrating to try and come to terms that you literally do not know something. You can't guess, can't lean more to one side than the other - you just straight up do not know.
And how do you deal with that? You put God in it's place. Instead of not knowing you just say God is responsible.

Sounds pretty childish to me. Kind of like this story:

Easter Bunny Mother: "Claire, did you eat the cookies that I baked for your grandma??!!"
Easter Bunny Daughter: "No mommy, it was... it was... umm... it was Panda!!"
Easter Bunny Mother: "Your stuffed bear ate all of my cookies??!?!!"
Easter Bunny Daughter: "Yuuup, he sure did..."

See, geoff. Putting your faith and a name on your problems, accomplishments, or whatever in the name of God is nothing more than "childish."

creationism and christianity state that ONE being greater than the laws of nature or bound by our thoughts or math or laws or theories or even our timeline created everything.

I love how people need mountains of evidence to believe in evolution or any other scientific theory, but believe that some amazing entity created the earth in a week. Evidence for that? The bible said so. I believe that the earth spawned from one tiny drop of sweat from God's balls, what evidence do you have that that isn't true?
Anyone who is a creationist at this point is really just living in a fantasy world. Seriously.

For you to take the word or creationists and christianity as truth just proves how clueless you are when it comes to this topic. Mathematically you cannot prove God. Is it because he created it--thus, left it with an impossible equation, that if ever calculated could disprove his existence, right? Please, don't answer that.
The laws of nature? Haaaha, there are micro-organisms that don't get effected by the laws of nature (ex: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article5594539.ece). The emptiness of space, countless, stars, galaxies, super novas, red giants... all those things are incomprehensible to our little minds. The laws of nature? What a joke.
I hope that you're only throwing out "guesses" here because if you truely believe all this then there's nothing I could ever learn from you.

He was the source, the cause, the Beggining. its funny how they state we can never truly know or comprehend whats inside a black hole yet people can immediately write off the notion that a supernatural entity created everything we see and know.

Do you even know what a black hole is?
Basically black holes do exist as we can empirically observe them, but the way they are proven in Special Relatively is debatable.

There is some aspect or element that is being left out of the equation that is causing it to be wrong. The whole dividing by zero thing. My thoughts are that since we are still discovering and observing new elements in space, such as dark matter, then there will be new ways to prove the existence of black holes that we see. Although we may need to redefine the term black hole to make it appropriate

Also-- just because we aren't quiet sure what is inside a black hole doesn't mean anything. A "supernatural entity creating everything we see and know" is just... just not even worth taking serious.

Schwarzschild metric - static, neutral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_metric)
Reissner–Nordström metric - static, charged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reissner-Nordstr%C3%B6m_metric)
Kerr metric - rotating, neutral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric)
Kerr–Newman metric - rotating, charged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr-Newman_metric)

http://nrumiano.free.fr/Estars/int_bh2.html

Here are a few things that have to do with black holes. I've been reading up on them for a few months, but am still having a hard time understanding the whole concept.

Listen to this cosmologist's lecture at Richard Dawkins' youtube channel. If you haven't seen it then it will surely blow your mind: A Universe from Nothing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo) watch it, and tell me what you think. It's very interesting if you want to learn a thing or two.

and that that being stands all alone and gave us instructions on how we are supposed to live and what not. Heck even a manufacturer gives and instruction manual when they make anything.

Intruction manual? You mean "natural instinct?"
The creation of the universe didn't need intructions nor will it ever. Things occur and evolve. No intructions needed.

There was a YouTube page called The Counter Weight 1 that had fantastic uncut interviews of Richard Dawkins from his documentary "The genius of Darwin." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lfTPTFN94o) You can see uncut interviews of him and science teachers, creationist chemistry teachers, paleontologists, and biologists that have uncovered various species of our human cousins in Africa. Sadly though the account has been suspended.

I learned and got so much from those videos I can't even begin to describe it.
Did you know that the human infant is the only mammal that is born pre-mature? All other mammals can begin walking and integrate rather seamlessly into the community once being born. The human infant, however, is birthed quite early, and researchers, like the evolutionary biologist (in the documentary) discovered that the rapid enlargement of the human brain and subsequent enlargement of the skull made the birthing process nearly unsurvivable due to constraints of the birth canal. Over time though babies began to be born, and still are, with their skulls having not yet been formed.

Now, what this requires after birth is a tremendous amount of care from the mother. It requires almost all of her energy to raise the child, teach it, nurture it, feed it, etc. this had never before happened to mammals with such large brains.
It is thus thought, then, that this constant nurturing produced a community that was chiefly concerned and centered on both the mother and the newborn. This may have given rise to primitive but ever complex communities where language and communication was of paramount importance in order for the survival of the young and the child bearing. Evolution is just incredibly fascinating.

Intruction manual? Where has a manual ever been needed? Have any records of someone ever questioning how to inhale and breathe out ever been discovered? Geoff, I cannot begin to tell you how disappointed I am in your posts. They're comparable to a 7th graders' retorts.

my God is getting smaller and smaller? im sorry buddy but no other theory has lasted since the beggining of time. we keep learning and learning and coming up with new ideas and theories every day yet my God and the God of many still stands.

Yeah, it stands in the middle of a court being nothing more than a court jester--getting laughed at by the entire scientific community.

This has been 99% depressing & 1% entertaining. I seriously thought it would've really tested my knowledge. Sadly, I have been left blueballed. Haha, I'll continue though.

and where you getting your facts buddy? the Big Bang theory is no longer supported as it used to be. scientist's are actually getting closer to truth and " my God " as intelligent design and creationism are growing.

We could keep swordfighting with our cocks, but I for one believe in trying out theories instead of sitting back and eating Costco pizza... which was terrible, by the way, and listening to buffoons, so I went out to my backyard, and tried an experiment where I caught a snake, and tried having a conversation with it. I recorded the experiment, but unfortunately it ended in complete failure. I ended up looking like a sick, mentally retarded individual who was trying to talk to a garden-fucking-snake.

This has lead me to the conclusion that I need to find a new girl for my harem because it's obvious to me I am so bored I am actually responding to you.

Now... I am getting my facts from years of research and college professors. Where are you getting your "knowledge" from, Geoff? The bible?
Oh and ROFLMMFAO, scientists are getting closer to the truth--that is your God? As, wait for it... the intelligent design behind life?
Wow, dude... this has gotta be the worst argument that there's proof of a God, that I have ever read.
Evidence against one theory (in this case, according to you is the BB theory) is not evidence for an entirely unsubstantiated theory like a universe-creating superhero.

i just think its funny how you put so much faith in science, i highly doubt you have personally studied all the theories that you believe in. you just accept it as truth because some guy with a degree tells you its so.

These are guys that have studied cosmology, and get paid to do this. What makes you think that they're simply just bullshitting?
Whereas I have gone to school for this, you have only been "reading" one book, that is claimed to be the word of God. YOU JUST ACCEPT IT AS TRUTH, YOU HAVE NOT STUDIED ANYTHING BUT THE BIBLE. See, that is funny. You're putting your faith (since that's all you have) on God.

We are not. If something doesn't sound right we question it.

remember, scientists and philosophers used to think the world was flat.

Um, no you silly goose.
Religious people did. They also (and for some odd reason still do) think that everything was created 6,000 years ago.

It's actually pretty funny, the idea of people worshiping a God who doesn't give a flying fuck about them. God is too cool for fucking school in that little scenario. He must wear sunglasses and file his God nails with his feet up on his God desk while Pat Robertson is praying the shit out of a prayer to him.

atleast with my belief i have had the opportunity to study MYSELF and make MY OWN conclusion on what i believe.

And what conclusions are those?
Oh yeah. God created everything, sees everything, listens to everybody, and if you pray to him with all your heart will listen and make you prayers come true. YOU CAME UP WITH THAT---ALL BY YOURSELF?!??! AMAZING!! I admire your drive, geoff. You make threads saying that God is all yet you resort to childish banters when we challenge you to prove this pile of horse shit. You cannot challenge common sense. You've made a thread wanting to create a God type of car club. Good luck, but If you want to make friends, why not take this crap to some pro-christian discussion board where you can all sniff each others christian butts and talk about saving mankind or whatever you want to do?
Get back to us when you have something intelligent we can discuss.

stop trying to seperate God and science. God uses science so we can have some kind of understanding of the world around us

Spectacular. Outstanding retort.

... wowww... can you worship something that actually requires worshipping? Like, the sun??!