Weird Turbo/Dyno/Tuning Problem

[19'sPrelude]

So, to give you all a little background, I just got done with my turbo build and after taking it to Ed on Friday for a 4 hour tune/dyno session, I left VERY dissapointed!

First...the setup

H22 Bone Stock
Garrett T3/T4 .57 trim .60/.48 AR
HKS BOV
Turbonetics 38mm Wastegate (7psi)
RC 650cc Injectors
Walbro 255lph
Large front mount 2.5'' piping
2.5'' downpipe & 2.5'' open exhaust all the way to the Apexi muffler
No name tubular manifold

So after 4 hours of tuning with Ed, I was only able to put down 240whp, and the power just dropped off at 7400 rpm. It seemed like the car wasnt getting enough air or was having a problem geting rid of it. We were both really dumbfounded when we could only squeeze 240whp out. Ed stated that he pulls 300+whp out of stock h22's on 7psi quite often and he didnt understand why this one wasnt.

Does anyone have any ideas or has anyone incountered this as well? Why would the car just quit making power at 7400 rpm? The turbo spools up really quick but then just seems to die out. I dont know, I'm just really frustrated with the outcome, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[EmminoDaGreat]

300whp out of a stock h22 on 7psi is high hopes. You figure the avg H22 makes 170whp (a good one neway) some make less, some more... avg hp increase at 7 psi is 70whp. 10hp per lb/boost.. so 240 isnt so bad.

[19'sPrelude]

300whp out of a stock h22 on 7psi is high hopes.

Well, I would have thought that my setup would have made more than 240whp seeing that I dyno'd it N/A at 184whp before I started this project. I mean 60whp is all I get?

My question really isnt about the horsepower, its more about the restriction in the power. Would the dyno sheet help more with diagnosing the problem? I can provide any information needed. Thanks

[EmminoDaGreat]

post the sheet....

[WhiteAccord]

Like emino says, the number you put out seems to be the right number...

And I believe most h22's do put out that much with a stock motor...

If you want more power, Build it, Get a bigger turbo. Ppost sheet.

[jimjam187]

check the back of the mani for cracks I know someone who had the same problem and he had a small crack where the mani meets the header flang.

[19'sPrelude]

post the sheet....

5 min...

[19'sPrelude]

Like emino says, the number you put out seems to be the right number...

And I believe most h22's do put out that much with a stock motor...

If you want more power, Build it, Get a bigger turbo. Ppost sheet.

Thanks for the advice. I'll post the sheet up in a min.

[19'sPrelude]

check the back of the mani for cracks I know someone who had the same problem and he had a small crack where the mani meets the header flang.

Ok, will do. But that caused the car to just die out? The power curve gets really jumpy at the top end too, I'm just getting frustrated with all of this.....

[jimjam187]

funny thing about it was it was building boost but no hp gain, when you turned the boost cont up hp went down b/c of the crack.

[WhiteAccord]

But then you wouldnt want to increase boost on a Stock H22.

[19'sPrelude]

Here is the sheet...Notice how it just dies out at 7400 rpm and how the curve gets REALLY choppy. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/adam_sasc/DynoSheetSmall.jpg

[EmminoDaGreat]

air/fuels look great, but the choppyness in the graph could be timing, or a lower smoothing graph, if the software can smooth to 5 than it would look better... Pm Scotty (scttydb411) if you interested in having him take a look at your tune etc...

[WhiteAccord]

Dude you didnt even make 240....

Looks like ocean waves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try upgrading cap, rotor, spark plug wires, Check for any leaks.

[19'sPrelude]

air/fuels look great, but the choppyness in the graph could be timing, or a lower smoothing graph, if the software can smooth to 5 than it would look better... Pm Scotty (scttydb411) if you interested in having him take a look at your tune etc...

Ed tried advancing and retarded timing but it didnt show any improvement. I'm going to shoot Scotty a pm and see what he thinks.

[19'sPrelude]

Dude you didnt even make 240....

Looks like ocean waves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try upgrading cap, rotor, spark plug wires, Check for any leaks.

I know, this is SO frustrating! Upgrading all the following or just replacing with new OEM? Where do I check for leaks? Charge pipes and compressor side or downpipe and exhaust side?

[EmminoDaGreat]

you probably dont have boost leaks, make sure your running ngk plug wires, w/ ngk bkr7e-11 plugs gapped to around .028

[19'sPrelude]

I know that I'm running a 7 heat range (?) NGK plug gapped at .028 but the rest of my ignition is stock.

[2.3 Evo 8]

First, is that 11.7 A/F on 93 pump gas?

Do you have a test pipe or cat? 2.5 in exhaust isn't restrictive at that power level.

Get out the soapy water, it's times to test for a boost leak. I would do a compression test too.

Last, upgrading the ignition is a great idea.

[2.3 Evo 8]

I know, this is SO frustrating! Upgrading all the following or just replacing with new OEM? Where do I check for leaks? Charge pipes and compressor side or downpipe and exhaust side?

Check for leaks on the intercooler pipes, couplers, fmic, intake gaskets, and throttle body.

[19'sPrelude]

First, is that 11.7 A/F on 93 pump gas?

Do you have a test pipe or cat? 2.5 in exhaust isn't restrictive at that power level.

Get out the soapy water, it's times to test for a boost leak. I would do a compression test too.

Last, upgrading the ignition is a great idea.

Yes, it's 11.7 on 93 pump gas....is this good or bad?

I dont have any cat or test pipe, its just an open 2.5'' from the turbo back to the Apexi muffler.

Just check for any sort of leaks from the turbo, pipings, flanges, ect? I may have a small vaccum leak from a hose on the intake manifold but I highly doubt that is causing my problem.

[SPOOLIN]

whats the size of your turbo compressor wheel? That could answer some power estimation questions. You might just need a bigger turbo, could be to small for the motor making it hard to keep producing power efficiently.

[19'sPrelude]

whats the size of your turbo compressor wheel? That could answer some power estimation questions. You might just need a bigger turbo, could be to small for the motor making it hard to keep producing power efficiently.

All I know about the turbo is:

Garrett
Model - T3/T04E
Compressor A/R - .60
Compressor Trim - 57
Turbine A/R - .48
Turbine Trim - Stage 1 (72)
Flanges - T3 Manifold , T3/T4 5 bolt "oversized" exhaust

[Formally...]

Damn Spoolin beat me too it. Do you know what stage wheel you have in the exhuast side of the turbo. A .48a/r is fairly small for a 2.2L motor. Also, have you checked all the cam timing. I have seen a few H22s that have choppy power and it was due to the cam timing being off. Later.

[19'sPrelude]

Damn Spoolin beat me too it. Do you know what stage wheel you have in the exhuast side of the turbo. A .48a/r is fairly small for a 2.2L motor. Also, have you checked all the cam timing. I have seen a few H22s that have choppy power and it was due to the cam timing being off. Later.

All the info that I posted above is all I know about the turbo. As far as the timing goes, Ed at Balanced Performance tried advancing and retarding the timing and it showed no improvement.

[SPOOLIN]

yeah if your compression is reading good on the motor, i strongly advise that your turbo is choking the chicken.

[IDCoconut]

He's talking about cam timing.

[19'sPrelude]

He's talking about cam timing.

I know that Ed tuned the turbo on bothsides of Vtec and found the optimal crossover point for it. I know that he spent about an hour working with the vtec timing, so I dont know if that really means anything regarding cam timing.

As far as the timing I was talking about, I assume the timing he retarded and advanced was the ignition timing.

[19'sPrelude]

yeah if your compression is reading good on the motor, i strongly advise that your turbo is choking the chicken.

So, run a compression test, see what it reads, then if its good the problem lies in the size of my turbo? Would the no name manifold be contributing to the problem? I dont think the 2.5'' downpipe and exhaust would make any noticeable difference in power until 500+ hp.

I just dont understand the choppyness and the drop in power at 7400. This is just getting really frustrating and upsetting.

[Batlground]

300whp out of a stock h22 on 7psi is high hopes. You figure the avg H22 makes 170whp (a good one neway) some make less, some more... avg hp increase at 7 psi is 70whp. 10hp per lb/boost.. so 240 isnt so bad.
+1

7psi with that turbo suonds dead on balls accurate

[SPOOLIN]

choppyness and drop in power is the main indicator that your turbo is just running out of life at that point. Post a picture of your manifold. Ive seen some REALLY ****ty manifolds make a lot more power than you are making. 2.5" downpipe should be perfectly fine for what you are trying to do, there has been 400hp cars running 2.5" downpipes.

[Batlground]

Based on your graph, setup, etc you re making the power you are supposed to be making at that boost level.

The choppyness is from the graph being on SMOOTHING 3.

CHarles mentioned CAM TIMING, not IGNITION TIMING. WHat charles (main stream) means is check your TIMING BELT to make sure it didnt jump a tooth or something, although IMO the graph looks too good to be a cam timing issue.

For a bone stock h22, with a t3/t4, prob a small compressor wheel, thats about right.

Id be happy, im sure the car is much faster :)

[19'sPrelude]

The turbo on the LEFT is the one that is on the car. The one on the right is a small turbo from a SAAB 9-3


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/adam_sasc/Prelude%20Pictures/au-mf-h22-3.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/adam_sasc/Prelude%20Pictures/Parts029.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/adam_sasc/Prelude%20Pictures/Parts030.jpg

[SPOOLIN]

yeah hell you could prolly switch out just the exhaust side and see gains, but thats gets tricky due to different sized exhaust wheels. Ive seen smoother graphs on STD smoothing.

[19'sPrelude]

yeah hell you could prolly switch out just the exhaust side and see gains, but thats gets tricky due to different sized exhaust wheels. Ive seen smoother graphs on STD smoothing.

Smoother graphs yeah, but the car was getting jerky after 5,000 rpm. I'm going to swap out the .48 with a .63 get another $400+ tuning/dyno :tongue1: and see where I'm at after that.

[Batlground]

what spark plugs are you running? what was your base timing set at?

[19'sPrelude]

Running a 7 heat range NGK gapped to .028

Not sure what the base timing was or is set at. Is there any way for me to pull that info? I'm running Hondata

[2.3 Evo 8]

Ed knows what he is doing, but am I the only one that thinks 11.7 A/F's on 93 octane seem a little high. Especially in the higher rpms?

[Batlground]

Ed knows what he is doing, but am I the only one that thinks 11.7 A/F's on 93 octane seem a little high. Especially in the higher rpms?
nah thats right. 11.5-12.0 is right

[Big J]

stage 1 wheel on a .48 is kinda small, especially with the volume your compressor side can push, that's just a horribly imbalanced turbo as far as flow. A 57 trim w/ a .60 housing can flow WAY more than that exhaust side can handle.

[Big J]

I bet your EGT's are pretty high

[SPOOLIN]

those 11.7 AFR's are perfectly fine.

[green91]

I bet his EGTs arent high, 11.7 should keep them nice and cool as long as the timing isnt way advanced

[scttydb411]

things that i would look at have pretty much been answered in the preceeding pages. things to look at when there are issues such as yours:
1. ngk plugs 7's or 8's (7's fine for your power level) gapped down like you have them
2. honda cap, rotor, and wires
3. 93 octane. you laugh, but i've seen my share of cars come to the dyno with 87 octane in them.
4. restriction in the exhuast, cat, etc
5. too small of an air filter
6. no intake pipe on the turbo and no wastegate dump or poorly placed dump that dumps exhaust right near/into the turbo.
7. base timing/dizzy wrong (too low or too high)
8. cam timing off. h series have been known to jump timing
9. too much/too little timing in the map
10. poor flowing manifold/poor flowing intake pipes
11. wrong sized turbo
12. imbalanced turbo that slightly scrubs housing restricting flow.
13. hurt motor

ask yourself these questions and do a compression test to rule out the motor itself.

hope that helps. feel free to give me a call if you want to discuss.

[19'sPrelude]

I bet your EGT's are pretty high

Pardon my ignorance....but could you elaborate a little more? :???:

[Batlground]

Pardon my ignorance....but could you elaborate a little more? :???:
EGT=exhaust gas temp

He thinks because your turbo is so small, and the graph is so choppy that you have high EGTs.

I disagree because:
1) Ed knows when a car is detonating, and when EGTs are too hot
2) 11.7:1 a/f shouldnt cause high EGTs unless your timing is way retarded

[Big J]

EGT=exhaust gas temp

He thinks because your turbo is so small, and the graph is so choppy that you have high EGTs.

I disagree because:
1) Ed knows when a car is detonating, and when EGTs are too hot
2) 11.7:1 a/f shouldnt cause high EGTs unless your timing is way retarded

cross flow cylinder heads bring cool intake heat in one side and push hot exhaust out the other side, the slower that exhaust can be evacuated the more heat soak of the components that occure and higher compressive forces are required to evacuate exhaust. Compression = heat. The cooling system will pull heat and other components will transfere heat, but enough restriction will cause heat build up and higher EGTs. Once the intake manifold pressure to exhauset manifold pressure ratio swings higher towards the exhaust side, you're going to get more exhaust reversion into the intake manifold and retention in the cylinder. That is going to occure at high flow, ie high RPM WOT, intake charge contamination will kill power output. Your running a turbo on an NA grind so fi you swing the manifolld pressure ratios too far off you're gping to get reversion, heat retention, poor power out put, and preignition/detination just to start. Most likely preignition due to heat, exhaust gasses in the cumbustion cycle lowers peak cylinder pressure by acting as a netural gas and a cumbustion buffer, like an EGR system does. Find a car with a working EGR, disconnect it, do a dyno pull, reconnect it, hang it wide open then do another pull. You work on the exhaust side of that turbo and you should pick up 25-50 hp, I bet you :2cents:.

[SPOOLIN]

yes not enough flow in the turbo could rise the temps but not to unsafe levels.

[19'sPrelude]

EGT=exhaust gas temp

He thinks because your turbo is so small, and the graph is so choppy that you have high EGTs.

I disagree because:
1) Ed knows when a car is detonating, and when EGTs are too hot
2) 11.7:1 a/f shouldnt cause high EGTs unless your timing is way retarded

Well there's definitely no detonation through all RPM ranges. I spent quite a few hours with Ed on the dyno and we went over more information than my brain could handle in that time period.

[19'sPrelude]

Another problem that I'm running into is compressor surge. I'm guessing (from what I've gathered in this thread) that my compressor is making more air than my exhaust housing can get rid of, thus, resulting in my compressor surge. I've got a RFL blow off valve but the spring in it is SUPER strong and I'm only blowing off at higher boost pulls. I've also got a HKS SSQV sitting in my garage, would the HKS be a better/more adjustable blow off valve to put on the car. I'm trying to relieve some of the compressor surge at lower/mid rpms.

[speedminded]

OEM Honda plug wires? What are you tuning with?

[19'sPrelude]

OEM Honda plug wires? What are you tuning with?

Yes, I havent (yet) upgraded any of my ignition, dizzy, wires, ect. Tuning with Hondata

[GAtegs]

Your turbo's exhaust housing is too small.

[speedminded]

Your turbo's exhaust housing is too small.It's the T34E57T36048 right? http://www.pagparts.com/turbodetail.asp?id=17716

[Batlground]

cross flow cylinder heads bring cool intake heat in one side and push hot exhaust out the other side, the slower that exhaust can be evacuated the more heat soak of the components that occure and higher compressive forces are required to evacuate exhaust. Compression = heat. The cooling system will pull heat and other components will transfere heat, but enough restriction will cause heat build up and higher EGTs. Once the intake manifold pressure to exhauset manifold pressure ratio swings higher towards the exhaust side, you're going to get more exhaust reversion into the intake manifold and retention in the cylinder. That is going to occure at high flow, ie high RPM WOT, intake charge contamination will kill power output. Your running a turbo on an NA grind so fi you swing the manifolld pressure ratios too far off you're gping to get reversion, heat retention, poor power out put, and preignition/detination just to start. Most likely preignition due to heat, exhaust gasses in the cumbustion cycle lowers peak cylinder pressure by acting as a netural gas and a cumbustion buffer, like an EGR system does. Find a car with a working EGR, disconnect it, do a dyno pull, reconnect it, hang it wide open then do another pull. You work on the exhaust side of that turbo and you should pick up 25-50 hp, I bet you :2cents:.
Dont take it personally :)

i just disagree its an EGT problem

All of you are prob right, his exhaust housing is too small, causing compressor surge and the wavy graph

[19'sPrelude]

It's the T34E57T36048 right? http://www.pagparts.com/turbodetail.asp?id=17716
yes that seems to be the one, but I can't find garretts model number for it. I've looked high and low on the turbo and had no luck

[speedminded]

yes that seems to be the one, but I can't find garretts model number for it. I've looked high and low on the turbo and had no luckDid you ever get that 4th bolt back on the flange and everything tightened?

[19'sPrelude]

Did you ever get that 4th bolt back on the flange and everything tightened?

:thinking: What are you talking about? Where was a bolt missing? Where did you see this at?

[speedminded]

:thinking: What are you talking about? Where was a bolt missing? Where did you see this at?NM, i'm thinking about someone I met the other day! Qualude, bodykit, turbo just put on, etc.

[bRiAnMcIvIcS]

Get a bigger turbo.

[patrick4588]

about your compressor surge, this will solve it. i promise.
http://www.advancespeedshop.com/synapse-engineering-synchronic-sb001a-blow-valve-sb001a-p-4934.html?osCsid=291904adb20b43f4866c87c7af1a8934

[josh green]

a bigger wastegate can also solve his problem...... Not that thats the proper solution but it would fix the problem.

[19'sPrelude]

NM, i'm thinking about someone I met the other day! Qualude, bodykit, turbo just put on, etc.

Ha, yeah us "ricers" all look the same these days huh :rolleyes:

[19'sPrelude]

Get a bigger turbo.

Well, I think that seems like the right thing to do. So I'm thinking...GT32?

[19'sPrelude]

about your compressor surge, this will solve it. i promise.
http://www.advancespeedshop.com/synapse-engineering-synchronic-sb001a-blow-valve-sb001a-p-4934.html?osCsid=291904adb20b43f4866c87c7af1a8934

Well, seeing how I've already spent quite a bit of money on two other blow off valves, I'm going to throw this HKS SSQV on when I get my new turbo and see how that does.

[19'sPrelude]

a bigger wastegate can also solve his problem...... Not that thats the proper solution but it would fix the problem.

Yeah, I'm not 100% happy with my Turbonetics wastegate. I seem to be getting a little creep from it. Tial 38mm FTW :boobies:

[Big J]

Yeah, I'm not 100% happy with my Turbonetics wastegate. I seem to be getting a little creep from it. Tial 38mm FTW :boobies:

exhaust has to go out the WG or throught the turbo. Since you turbo is kinda small, it requires less exhaust for the turbo to reach a certain speed, so more exhaust needs to go out of the WG to maintain boost than w/ a larger turbo. Once your WG is maxing in terms of flow, the one place exhaust is going to go is out the turbo. The turbo speeds up, more boost is made, boost creaps up as more exhaust is made.

.

[19'sPrelude]

exhaust has to go out the WG or throught the turbo. Since you turbo is kinda small, it requires less exhaust for the turbo to reach a certain speed, so more exhaust needs to go out of the WG to maintain boost than w/ a larger turbo. Once your WG is maxing in terms of flow, the one place exhaust is going to go is out the turbo. The turbo speeds up, more boost is made, boost creaps up as more exhaust is made.

.


So...whenever I get my new turbo (with a suitable exhaust a/r) I shouldn't see the creep?

[josh green]

So...whenever I get my new turbo (with a suitable exhaust a/r) I shouldn't see the creep?
its a possibility but I havent really seen anything turbonetics worth a damn anyway.

"Turblownetics"
Turdbonetics"
you get the idea

[SPOOLIN]

turbonetics has some decent products on the standard end of things, their flow control products are always good. If you have a properly sized gate you wont see creep. usually a small housing wont cause creep, thats usually always centered around the wastegate.

[19'sPrelude]

turbonetics has some decent products on the standard end of things, their flow control products are always good. If you have a properly sized gate you wont see creep. usually a small housing wont cause creep, thats usually always centered around the wastegate.

Just bought a Tial 38mm and have a brand new HKS SSQV. Now just need to purchase the new turbo.

[miro_gt]

hahaah, there's such a bunch of crap in this thread.

you're running .48 exhaust housing, so 10hp per pound is about right. Yes it can be more, but you have small exhaust housing, so deal with it.

considering that your engine/cam timing/dizzy timing are fine, the simple solution for you is CRANK UP THE DAMN BOOST ... duh, till you make 300whp, and call it a day

why did you get stuck at 7psi anywayzzzz

--

now if you have increased the boost and played with the timing and no power increase, then PM me that I can come and look at your thread again and list you a bunch of other reasons about why it could happen like that.

[19'sPrelude]

hahaah, there's such a bunch of crap in this thread.

you're running .48 exhaust housing, so 10hp per pound is about right. Yes it can be more, but you have small exhaust housing, so deal with it.

considering that your engine/cam timing/dizzy timing are fine, the simple solution for you is CRANK UP THE DAMN BOOST ... duh, till you make 300whp, and call it a day

why did you get stuck at 7psi anywayzzzz

--

now if you have increased the boost and played with the timing and no power increase, then PM me that I can come and look at your thread again and list you a bunch of other reasons about why it could happen like that.

Thank you for your input. However, I'm still running this engine on stock internals so I dont know that "cranking up the damn boost" would be the best idea. I got "stuck" at 7psi for two reasons. One being that I only had a 7psi spring in my wastegate and the second being that I'm still on stock internals.

[patrick4588]

psi doesnt determine how hard you should push stock internals, whp does. making 250whp on 18psi on one turbo is safer than 300whp on 8psi on another. whp is what matters, not psi

[19'sPrelude]

psi doesnt determine how hard you should push stock internals, whp does. making 250whp on 18psi on one turbo is safer than 300whp on 8psi on another. whp is what matters, not psi

I stand corrected :goodjob:

[Big J]

you're running .48 exhaust housing, so 10hp per pound is about right. Yes it can be more, but you have small exhaust housing, so deal with it.



the "stage 1" turbine wheel in combo with the .48 housing is the issue

[19'sPrelude]

the "stage 1" turbine wheel in combo with the .48 housing is the issue

I just ordered my T3 60-1 T04S .63A/R so i'll figure out if that was my problem exactly.

[miro_gt]

psi doesnt determine how hard you should push stock internals, whp does. making 250whp on 18psi on one turbo is safer than 300whp on 8psi on another. whp is what matters, not psi

that's not quite true

What matters is how you are making the power that you are making. Or in other words, you can have two same engines with different turbo setups and both making 250whp - one of 'um safely and the other not !


I have over 230whp in my stock D at 14psi (it runs at 15 daily), even with the stock fuel pump (lol), and the car has been running hard for over an year (15K miles), where as others blow engines like mine at 160whp ..

[GAtegs]

Unfortunately, sometimes some people get lucky and negate everything that is "right".

[19'sPrelude]

Well, I've got all the "right" stuff for now on a stock block. I just needed to get the right turbo.

So does anyone have any experience on what turbo I should be getting? I'm strongly looking at a T3 60-1 T04S .63A/R hotside. Any other suggestions and numbers to back them up?

[GAtegs]

What kind of power are you trying to make?

[19'sPrelude]

What kind of power are you trying to make?
290-310whp on this stock engine, just until I get my built engine finished.

[Dietcoke]

Whats going on is causing irregularity in your combustion, which makes me think its not a product of timing, plug gap or heat range/etc. Given that the power falls off, and the graph is smooth up until where it gets choppy points to your valve springs not being adequete for the boost pressure/rpm. Remember, the more cylinder pressure you have, the harder your valvesprings have to work. Stock springs aint gonna cut it.