Question Regarding Brakes, Primarily Pads

[Sammich]

right now i'm in a crisis sort to speak in needing to change my pads on my maxima, the rear is squealing, so its time for change/upgrade.

a friend and i were chatting and there was a discrepancy of ceramic pads. i know they have a longer life and dont create the brake dust, but is it true that they dont grab right, i mean even after a correct 'break-in' period?

also will slotted rotors reduce the life of your brake pads? i've been thinking either getting blanks or slotted..but kinda want to go slotted incase i decide to do a lil auto-x in the future.

[Sammich]

bump and also move to wheels/brakes section please

[StraightSix]

For auto-x, you'll need to pay attention to the class you plan on running to determine if the slotted rotors are legal. It is very possible that a seemingly "innocent" upgrade will move you into a class that is less than favorable for your car. But, if you aren't concerned about being the top of the class, then all of the last paragraph is moot.

I haven't ever heard anything regarding ceramic pads not grabbing right. All brake pads have different initial bite and friction characteristics. Any performance pad, though, will likely create a bit of dust and possibly squeal like hell. A number of the CSCC guys have used Carbotechs and liked them.

Also, slotted rotors would cause your pads to wear more quickly. Think about it like this, if you were to rub your hand across the face of the slotted rotor, you're going to feel the grooves, right? Well, the brake pad friction surface will "feel" the same grooves. Those grooves are going to act kind of like scrapers with each pass over the swept area of the brake pad.

Slotted rotors on a street car are, imo, overkill. You don't really need them in daily driving, or even for autocross. A high quality brake pad and fluid will be plenty for both.

[osiriskidd]

i just got ceramics on my front. they've been making a weird noise at low speeds and slow braking. its like a bumping/ sticking type of noise.

im going back to organic.

[cactusEG]

i dont think slotted rotors will make ur pads last longer. But it will reduce heat in the rotors...

[StraightSix]

^^^ Heat reduction isn't why slotted rotors have slots. They do absoltely nothing for brake cooling.

Ths slots in the rotors are there to exacuate the gasses that are created when the pads get heated up under braking. One won't see those kinds of brake temps on the street, though.

[speedminded]

^^^ Heat reduction isn't why slotted rotors have slots. They do absoltely nothing for brake cooling.

Ths slots in the rotors are there to exacuate the gasses that are created when the pads get heated up under braking. One won't see those kinds of brake temps on the street, though.lol :no: In the last 40 years we haven't had those gases.

Slotted rotors clean the glazed surface of the pad, that's all they do...so yes they do wear your pads faster than a blank disc.



i just got ceramics on my front. they've been making a weird noise at low speeds and slow braking. its like a bumping/ sticking type of noise.

im going back to organic.You've obviously never used a race pad if you think the noise from a ceramic is bad.

Ceramics are supposed to be quieter than organic/semi-metallic, I would suggest pulling the pads out, inspecting the caliper making sure everything is intact, then replace making sure the supplied grease was applied to the back of the pads....

[Sammich]

so my choice with ceramics is a 'good' choice for a DD/rarely occasional auto-x event? ill just get some brembo blanks and call it a day if this is the case, because i just purchased my ceramics yesterday

[speedminded]

so my choice with ceramics is a 'good' choice for a DD/rarely occasional auto-x event? ill just get some brembo blanks and call it a day if this is the case, because i just purchased my ceramics yesterdayRead this and I'll let you decide.




Why Ceramic Pads?

We want our vehicle's brake system to offer smooth, quiet braking capabilities under a wide range of temperature and road conditions. We don't want brake-generated noise and dust annoying us during our daily driving.

To accommodate this, brake friction materials have evolved significantly over the years. They've gone from asbestos to organic to semi-metallic formulations. Each of these materials has proven to have advantages and disadvantages regarding environmental friendliness, wear, noise and stopping capability.

Asbestos pads caused health issues and organic compounds can't always meet a wide range of braking requirements. Unfortunately the steel strands used in semi-metallic pads to provide strength and conduct heat away from rotors also generate noise and are abrasive enough to increase rotor wear.

Since they were first used on a few original equipment applications in 1985, friction materials that contain ceramic formulations have become recognized for their desirable blend of traits. These pads use ceramic compounds and copper fibers in place of the semi-metallic pad's steel fibers. This allows the ceramic pads to handle high brake temperatures with less heat fade, provide faster recovery after the stop, and generate less dust and wear on both the pads and rotors. And from a comfort standpoint, ceramic compounds provide much quieter braking because the ceramic compound helps dampen noise by generating a frequency beyond the human hearing range.

Another characteristic that makes ceramic materials attractive is the absence of noticeable dust. All brake pads produce dust as they wear. The ingredients in ceramic compounds produce a light colored dust that is much less noticeable and less likely to stick to the wheels. Consequently, wheels and tires maintain a cleaner appearance longer.

Ceramic pads meet or exceed all original equipment standards for durability, stopping distance and noise. According to durability tests, ceramic compounds extend brake life compared to most other semi-metallic and organic materials and outlast other premium pad materials by a significant margin - with no sacrifice in noise control, pad life or braking performance.

This is quite an improvement over organic and semi-metallic brake materials that typically sacrifice pad life to reduce noise, or vice versa.

[Sammich]

freakin sweetness thanks man..+13 or however much i'm worth to you thanks homie

[speedminded]

freakin sweetness thanks man..+13 or however much i'm worth to you thanks homiewoohoo!

[Sammich]

hahaha...did ed talk to you?

[bandydesign]

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/937/50598434.JPG


... that is all

[StraightSix]

lol :no: In the last 40 years we haven't had those gases.



I stand corrected then.

[Sammich]

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/937/50598434.JPG


... that is all

:wtf:

[bandydesign]

slotted rotors FTL

[speedminded]

I stand corrected then.That's why crossdrilling is completely pointless!

[JITB]

my car came with drilled rotors....and a week ago this happen.. theres a story behind it, involving ice... BUT, i doubt it would have happened if they were blank....notice the red (hot as hell)color of the rotor... :(
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/jitb37/Escort/IMG_2782.jpg

[xb1]

If I were you, I'd get a set of rotors and pads that are only for auto-x/track use. You can take your time and wait until right before the next event you want to be in, but you'll really appreciate track pads. And you can't just swap out the pads as the grooves wont line up and the rotors will have some deposits from the street pads.

[xb1]

And you don't need expensive rotors for track, at least not until you are ready to get serious. Also, I know a guy in Alpharetta who machines/preps brake swaps if you need his number.

[Sammich]

i've decided i'm going with brembo blanks and advance ceramics for the moment as i will not be heavily into auto-x at the moment..but i will eventually move up to hawk hps pads

[AnthonyF]

^not a bad choice. i would have just went with OEM or adavance rotors/pads since it's not a race car.

[speedminded]

^not a bad choice. i would have just went with OEM or adavance rotors/pads since it's not a race car.Advanced, Autozone, etc. house brands are nearly all repackaged Brembo's. How many patents do you think there are for a round piece of steel with 4 or 5 holes in it? ;)

[Sammich]

Advanced, Autozone, etc. house brands are nearly all repackaged Brembo's. How many patents do you think there are for a round piece of steel with 4 or 5 holes in it? ;)

seriously?? didn't know that. i found a sale on ebay for all four brembo blanks for like $168 i believe shipped for my maxima:goodjob: . hope the sale is still there when i get the extra money

[speedminded]

seriously?? didn't know that. i found a sale on ebay for all four brembo blanks for like $168 i believe shipped for my maxima:goodjob: . hope the sale is still there when i get the extra moneyDuralast, Beck Arnley, etc...normally all Brembo's just in a differant box.

Alot of times Beck Arnley pads are repackaged Axxis pads. ;)

[Sammich]

not trying to doubt you...but where did you get this info/get to know about this?

[speedminded]

not trying to doubt you...but where did you get this info/get to know about this?I've known lots of parts suppliers and middle men for years.

[Sammich]

cool thanks for the info man

[osiriskidd]

checked my front brakes. there was something weird on the brake surface causing it to slip a little at low speeds. idk what it is seeing as how you'd think braking would wipe it clean.

thats what i get for taking it to firestone instead of doing it myself.

[Sammich]

maybe some idiot put their greasy hands on your rotor and left grease residue on it...

[StraightSix]

For auto-x or track, I'm not a big fan of Hawk's pads. Too many of my friends are running them and getting a god awful amount of noise out them.

I've known for ahile that cross drilling was both pointless and a really, really good way to get a cracked rotor from metal fatigue.

[Sammich]

^^i knew that too..thats why i never had my mind set on drilled..always thought slotted...but now i'm sticking with blanks. ima see how these ceramics treat me then ill make/keep my decision from there on out

[speedminded]

For auto-x or track, I'm not a big fan of Hawk's pads. Too many of my friends are running them and getting a god awful amount of noise out them.

I've known for ahile that cross drilling was both pointless and a really, really good way to get a cracked rotor from metal fatigue.I assume you mean on a daily driven car? Or since when has compromising performance & safety for comfort been on the checklist of things to do on the race track or performance driven car?

That's like saying, "ah you know what, it's kinda hot today...i don't think i'll wear my fire resistant suit" or "my brakes are kinda noisy, I think I'll go to pads that will suddenly fade when braking for turn 10a...but at least people won't look at me when my brakes are squeaking!". :thinking:

For normal street use a race pad IS a bad idea, regardless of the noise it will never get up to temperature to properly work in everyday traffic.

[Sammich]

hawks are primarily auto-x pads?

[AnthonyF]

How many patents do you think there are for a round piece of steel with 4 or 5 holes in it? ;)about 27-419.

[Sammich]

wtf?!?!?where'd u come from anthony? if u dont have anything nice to say don't say nothing at all

[speedminded]

hawks are primarily auto-x pads?There's several differant levels of Hawk pads...

http://www.hawkperformance.com

Street Pads
• HPS (High Performance Street) - Performance Street Compound
• Performance Ceramic - Luxury and Touring Compound
• HP Plus – Autocross & Track Compound

Race Pads
• DTC-70 - Extremely high torque with aggressive controllable initial bite. Superior release and torque control characteristics. Brake pads designed for cars with high deceleration rates with or without down force
• DTC-60 - High torque with less initial bite than DTC 70. Superior release and torque control characteristics. Brake pads designed for cars with high deceleration rates with or without down force. Recommended for use with DTC-70 when split friction between front and rear axle is desired.
• DTC-30 - Brake pads designed Specifically for Dirt Circle Track applications. Uniquely controllable torque with smooth consistent feel and bite. Superior Release and torque control characteristics.
• DTC-05 - Developed specifically to meet the demands of lower torque Dirt Track Racing. This friction formulation provides very controllable, higher temperature
performance as compared to stock pads.
• HT-10 - Intermediate to high torque with a smooth initial bite. Very consistent pedal feel. Excellent modulation and release characteristics.
• Blue 9012 - Medium/High torque and temperature compound with excellent brake modulation. #1 selling brake pad material for SCCA.
• Blue MT4 - Medium/High torque and temperature compound with Medium/High initial bite. Brake pads designed for circle track cars under 2800 lbs without high deceleration rates.
• Black - Medium torque and temperature compound designed to be a good, all-purpose low- cost racing brake pad.
• DR 97 - Excellent static and dynamic coefficient of friction. Smooth linear torque. Low pad and rotor wear. Brake pads specifically designed for use in drag racing applications.

[Sammich]

There's several differant levels of Hawk pads...

http://www.hawkperformance.com (http://www.hawkperformance.com/)

Street Pads
• HPS (High Performance Street) - Performance Street Compound
• Performance Ceramic - Luxury and Touring Compound
• HP Plus – Autocross & Track Compound

Race Pads
• DTC-70 - Extremely high torque with aggressive controllable initial bite. Superior release and torque control characteristics. Brake pads designed for cars with high deceleration rates with or without down force
• DTC-60 - High torque with less initial bite than DTC 70. Superior release and torque control characteristics. Brake pads designed for cars with high deceleration rates with or without down force. Recommended for use with DTC-70 when split friction between front and rear axle is desired.
• DTC-30 - Brake pads designed Specifically for Dirt Circle Track applications. Uniquely controllable torque with smooth consistent feel and bite. Superior Release and torque control characteristics.
• DTC-05 - Developed specifically to meet the demands of lower torque Dirt Track Racing. This friction formulation provides very controllable, higher temperature
performance as compared to stock pads.
• HT-10 - Intermediate to high torque with a smooth initial bite. Very consistent pedal feel. Excellent modulation and release characteristics.
• Blue 9012 - Medium/High torque and temperature compound with excellent brake modulation. #1 selling brake pad material for SCCA.
• Blue MT4 - Medium/High torque and temperature compound with Medium/High initial bite. Brake pads designed for circle track cars under 2800 lbs without high deceleration rates.
• Black - Medium torque and temperature compound designed to be a good, all-purpose low- cost racing brake pad.
• DR 97 - Excellent static and dynamic coefficient of friction. Smooth linear torque. Low pad and rotor wear. Brake pads specifically designed for use in drag racing applications.

the HPS were what i was referring to. i heard alota pple who daily drive there cars mention those pads, so i figured they were good for a DD, and whenever there was a auto-x event i wouldnt have to worry about

[StraightSix]

I assume you mean on a daily driven car? Or since when has compromising performance & safety for comfort been on the checklist of things to do on the race track or performance driven car?

That's like saying, "ah you know what, it's kinda hot today...i don't think i'll wear my fire resistant suit" or "my brakes are kinda noisy, I think I'll go to pads that will suddenly fade when braking for turn 10a...but at least people won't look at me when my brakes are squeaking!". :thinking:

For normal street use a race pad IS a bad idea, regardless of the noise it will never get up to temperature to properly work in everyday traffic.

There's a problem with leaping of the cliff of conclusions....there's usually a very sudden stop at the bottom involved. So, go reread what I wrote.

At no point in this discussion have I tried to dissuade anyone from using an upgraded, ie. better then stock compound, pad for track use. Hawk's brake pads are NOT the only high performance compound available, there are plenty of others to choose from. I've heard much better feedback regarding the performance of Carbotechs than I have Hawks.

I'd be interested in the particulars of how my statement implied that a performance brake pad compound was somehow a bad idea for the track. Even better, and keep this somewhat germane to the original question, I do not recommend a track or race compound pad for street use because the pads will never be brought to the correct operating temperature, as has been previously stated.

[Sammich]

saw a thread on Carbotech's on CI.com..but never went to look into it much because i've heard Hawks HPS this and Hawks HPS that..

[StraightSix]

There are a lot of people that use Hawks, and they have become increasingly popular. I'm not ever convinced that the most popular product is always the best.

As an example, I heard good things in the past about ATE Super Blue brake fluid. My brake system is currently filled with the stuff, but I'm not that happy with it. I didn't care much for how it performed on track at Road Atlanta, Roebling, or Barber. Before the Civic sees any track time, I'm switching to Motul 600. Hopefully, though, I won't be tracking the Civic much longer.

[JessAlba452]

This is all you need if you don't decide on going BBK :D If you need part numbers or whatever let me know. I got everything for a pretty good deal. Just check out the vendors on .org

If you do decide to go BBK...Best are Brembo, Wilwood/AP Racing, K-Sport, 300ZX 30mm aluminum with caliper bracket and do some cobra 13" rotors. Even the 6th Gen brake upgrade. Lots of choices.


Brembo Blanks
Racing Blue DOT Brake Fluid
HAWK HPS Brake Pads

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2822/p1030803yi3.jpg

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5460/p1030882zp2.jpg

[Sammich]

well i installed my ceramics last night...and o man are these soooooooooooo nice..the grab really good. but i am sure that i will need to replace my rear calipers soon..so i'm thinking of changing them in a month when i replace all my rotors with brembo blanks...jess you were talking about upgrading to 6th parts...how hard is it to upgrade to 6th gen calipers and retain all other maxima parts? or am i suppose to upgrade pads also or can i keep my just installed ceramics?

[StraightSix]

^^ What indicates that the rear calipers need to be replaced?

[Sammich]

^^ What indicates that the rear calipers need to be replaced?

they were hard as hell to turn...almost like they were frozen. they are about toast homie..believe me..they arent suppose to be THAT hard to turn

[JessAlba452]

well i installed my ceramics last night...and o man are these soooooooooooo nice..the grab really good. but i am sure that i will need to replace my rear calipers soon..so i'm thinking of changing them in a month when i replace all my rotors with brembo blanks...jess you were talking about upgrading to 6th parts...how hard is it to upgrade to 6th gen calipers and retain all other maxima parts? or am i suppose to upgrade pads also or can i keep my just installed ceramics?

You just need a matt blem bracket. The rotors will be a little larger than the stock. I'm not 100% sure if the brake pads are the same or not. It's cheaper than the 300zx upgrade though.

Hmm did you mean the rear caliper or rear rotor?

[matthewAPM]

right now i'm in a crisis sort to speak in needing to change my pads on my maxima, the rear is squealing, so its time for change/upgrade.

a friend and i were chatting and there was a discrepancy of ceramic pads. i know they have a longer life and dont create the brake dust, but is it true that they dont grab right, i mean even after a correct 'break-in' period?

also will slotted rotors reduce the life of your brake pads? i've been thinking either getting blanks or slotted..but kinda want to go slotted incase i decide to do a lil auto-x in the future.

hawk HP+

[Sammich]

You just need a matt blem bracket. The rotors will be a little larger than the stock. I'm not 100% sure if the brake pads are the same or not. It's cheaper than the 300zx upgrade though.

Hmm did you mean the rear caliper or rear rotor?

i mean the caliper..because i need to replace my rear calipers soon..i'm hoping that i can turn em when i install all of my rotors(brembo blanks)..but i'm not counting on it:( .

i guess if i use the 6th gen caliper then i will have to upgrade rotors and pads anyway huh?

[StraightSix]

they were hard as hell to turn...almost like they were frozen. they are about toast homie..believe me..they arent suppose to be THAT hard to turn

That's much more an indication that the threads for the parking brake actuator are rusty. It certainly won't hurt anything to replace them.

[Sammich]

guess ill look into replacing that too...

[JessAlba452]

Rotor, Caliper, maybe brake pads too and you'd need the bracket. So around $400 if you can get a deal on it all.

If it was for me and I wanted a brake upgrade I would do the 300zx 30mm aluminum bbk. But I don't need to especially since I just got the brakes done yesterday. :D Has some bite to it!

[StraightSix]

guess ill look into replacing that too...

The parking brake actuator stuff is internal to the caliper. I'd have to see a cut away drawing or exploded diagram to really describe it acurately, but when you replace the rear calipers, all the parking stuff will be renewed, too.

[JessAlba452]

Ask and you shall receive ;)

http://www.courtesyparts.com/betasite/images/a33b/a33b_441-1.gif

[StraightSix]

Okay, it looks like the lever that the parking brake is connected to rotates a worm gear that is in mesh with P/N 44200E. That gear train rotates and extends the piston. The reason that you have to rotate the piston to reset the caliper comes from the fact that a worm gear system can not be forced to rotate by applying force, ie. compressing the piston, to the output gear.

PBS, there could be a couple of things that would cause your calipers' pistons to be hard to reset. One would be binding in the threads of the worm gears. Another cause could be a really tight seal where the piston and the caliper o-ring interface. That's a couple of theories, fwiw.

[Tech5]

On a Maxima, I done them about over 100 all years, i say go with bendix ceremics, with Stock rotors, rear dont do but 10-15% stopping anyways:goodjob:
right now i'm in a crisis sort to speak in needing to change my pads on my maxima, the rear is squealing, so its time for change/upgrade.

a friend and i were chatting and there was a discrepancy of ceramic pads. i know they have a longer life and dont create the brake dust, but is it true that they dont grab right, i mean even after a correct 'break-in' period?

also will slotted rotors reduce the life of your brake pads? i've been thinking either getting blanks or slotted..but kinda want to go slotted incase i decide to do a lil auto-x in the future.

[green91]

Ive got the hawk hp+ pads and brembo blanks on all 4 corners, they are noisy as **** and dust alot but they are very heat resistant and don't fade easily. much better than the cobalt friction pads i ran before. if you want a quiet combo get ceramic pads, and MAKE SURE TO RUN BRAKE PAD SHIMS WITH ANTI SQUEAL COMPOUND. shims + anti-squeal are key, even with OEM pads.

[speedminded]

MAKE SURE TO RUN BRAKE PAD SHIMS WITH ANTI SQUEAL COMPOUND. shims + anti-squeal are key, even with OEM pads. :goodjob:

[Sammich]

Okay, it looks like the lever that the parking brake is connected to rotates a worm gear that is in mesh with P/N 44200E. That gear train rotates and extends the piston. The reason that you have to rotate the piston to reset the caliper comes from the fact that a worm gear system can not be forced to rotate by applying force, ie. compressing the piston, to the output gear.

PBS, there could be a couple of things that would cause your calipers' pistons to be hard to reset. One would be binding in the threads of the worm gears. Another cause could be a really tight seal where the piston and the caliper o-ring interface. That's a couple of theories, fwiw.

well i'm going to just replace the calipers with advance/napa calipers anyway instead of worrying about whats wrong with the inside of the calipers. i mean if their toast, their toast right.:goodjob:


On a Maxima, I done them about over 100 all years, i say go with bendix ceremics, with Stock rotors, rear dont do but 10-15% stopping anyways:goodjob:

ceramics are already done, brembo blanks will be installed soon:goodjob:

[StraightSix]

well i'm going to just replace the calipers with advance/napa calipers anyway instead of worrying about whats wrong with the inside of the calipers. i mean if their toast, their toast right.:goodjob:


Yup, pretty much.

Someone else pointed out something that I took as understood. Definitely make sure you use the proper anti-squeal shims.

[Sammich]

dont know wtf that is...lol that must be sad..but i dont. i know there were(for the front pads) some kind of 'adhesive' i had to apply to the back of the pad when i installed them. either way..no squealing...as of yet

[speedminded]

dont know wtf that is...lol that must be sad..but i dont. i know there were(for the front pads) some kind of 'adhesive' i had to apply to the back of the pad when i installed them. either way..no squealing...as of yetThe shims provide a contast pressure/tension against the back of the pad so the pad surface doesn't vibrate against the rotor and the grease is to prevent any noise being created from the metal shim resting against the metal backing of the pad.

The person above complaining about noise from their recently changed pads most likely didn't use either...

[Sammich]

ok...well shims were used on the front pads...shims werent provided with the rear set of ceramics, but they were bendix ceramics, so i imagine that they should be fine, as they dont do a bulk of the braking work anyway.

[JessAlba452]

Ive got the hawk hp+ pads and brembo blanks on all 4 corners, they are noisy as **** and dust alot but they are very heat resistant and don't fade easily. much better than the cobalt friction pads i ran before. if you want a quiet combo get ceramic pads, and MAKE SURE TO RUN BRAKE PAD SHIMS WITH ANTI SQUEAL COMPOUND. shims + anti-squeal are key, even with OEM pads.

The HP+ are more for track use so most have reported that they are noisy. Also AXXIS pads, they are known to be noisy. Hawk HPS is for street, I just had them installed and there is no noise at all from them.

[StraightSix]

Bendix quite often manufactures their pads with the anti-rattle shims as a part of the pad backing plate.

[Sammich]

is it like a lil 'nub' that comes from the back of the pad? i believe i have it..i'm good. just waiting to get extra money for my rear calipers and rotors

[speedminded]

is it like a lil 'nub' that comes from the back of the pad? i believe i have it..i'm good. just waiting to get extra money for my rear calipers and rotorsnope, it should be made of "spring steel" or similiar. It a tab that applies constant pressure to the back of the pad so it does not rattle.

[Sammich]

i'd have to see visually what you are talking about...

[speedminded]

i'd have to see visually what you are talking about...It's different for every pad shape/size/model, it's just a thin piece of metal that slides behind the pad....


http://www.eurospecsport.com/Images/brakes/mintex_pads_mfr.jpg

http://www.innerauto.com/images/partImages/brake_pads2.jpg

http://www.thevolvosite.com/shop/catimages/Volvo-Brake-Pad-Set-30648381.jpg

[speedminded]

The shim is the thin piece about the thickness of a playing card. If there is any play because the retainer does not hold the pad tight the shim will put space it so there is constant tension on the back of the pad preventing it from moving/rattling...

http://s87299752.onlinehome.us/brakechange/disassemble.jpg

[Sammich]

well the front ones i had to attach...it had some adhesive on it that i removed to put the shim on..i duno about the rears..they may have already been on there cuz i didnt have anything else in the box but the pads

[speedminded]

well the front ones i had to attach...it had some adhesive on it that i removed to put the shim on..i duno about the rears..they may have already been on there cuz i didnt have anything else in the box but the padsThe metal piece in those pics is the retainer, i assumed thats what you said yours had...the shim is just the thin piece of metal and doesn't always come with new pads, simply reuse the old ones if they are there. It acts as a spacer to increase the thickness of the pad.

[Sammich]

i trashed the ones from the rear...i used the new ones with the front pads that came with it...no squealing as of yet...

[mushroom_toy]

You go with ceramic pads? Sorry didnt read whole thread.

[Johnny Chimpo]

I've had Hawk HPS pads on 3 cars, always loved them.

[Sammich]

You go with ceramic pads? Sorry didnt read whole thread.

yea i went with ceramics....no complaints at all here..best pads i've felt before..although i always opted the cheap pad route when i replaced them on my truck...no brake dust...more responsive braking...cant wait until i have enough money to replace my rotors and rear calipers and possibly to SS brake lines:D