mustang build

[The_ CaneCorso]

Im looking to buy a 88-92 lx shell and keep the 302 5.0 in it or maybe a 351cleveland 5.8 in it. My question is in a lx body would a 351cleveland fit fine or would I have to modify the mounts and what not? Also is a 351cleveland worth it? If I decideto go with a 302 I will get the 331 or 349 stroker kit for it. Also transmission how good is the stock trans?

[BUGMAN]

The 351C idea needs to be tossed IMO. I would stick with the 302 or a 351 if you want to make good power at a reasonable price.

How much power are you looking for and what are you wanting to do? NOS, Blower, Etc.?

[The_ CaneCorso]

you said toss the 351 but then you said stick with it? Toss the 351c and go with a 351windsor or what do you mean? Also Nos, no. I want to basically have a 10-11 sec car that pops up a wheelie on the go, but not so far fetched that I cant drive it to the store if needed.

[JRDman]

He means do not do the cleveland setup. stick with the windsor family of motor. that way its a heck of alot easier to get parts and cheaper to do.

Bugman will give ya the info to be able to do that. idk of anyone who has more 10 sec street cars than him.

CJ

[The_ CaneCorso]

Nothing like a ongoing project

[BUGMAN]

I hear ya JRD. You need to stop by soon, been worried about you guy's lately. Your still coming to Bugday @ Carolina Dragway on Nov 24th right? We are trying to have a few new projects to test out if everything goes right.

Definitely toss the 351C idea for what your wanting to do. If your wanting to build a engine to ride wheelies N/A then it is going to be a fairly radical build and not sure your gonna want to ride anywhere in it. You can do it fairly easy that way but have your checkbook handy.

Either way the 302/351 Windsor is your best most reasonable option.

[silversol]

i have a shell that needs floor pans ill sell super cheap!

[The_ CaneCorso]

whats the diference between the c and w?

[JRDman]

its the family of the motor. for instance if you know anything about hondas like H, B, D, K, all different series / family of engine. Same goes for the Cleveland and Windsor .

the 351c and 351w just have the same displacement. but thats all mostly.

but ya it will be hard to pull the fronts off the ground with a completely NA motor. if you had spray to the mix things change a bit. Just look at bugmans aviator. that car has probably the cheapest engine setup you can get in it. it all revolves around the complete package. if you start nickel and diming your just goin to end up with a 13 sec pile of **** that sounds cool but will get its ass whupped by a well thought out car.

a big thing to think of too is suspension. focus on getting the car dialed in with the suspension. because there is some cheap stuff that can go a long way in mustang fox body stuff.

Bugman.. i have been working my ass off trying to get my stuff together for my new shop. I am meeting with the realtor guy tommorrow that is in charge of the area you recommended i look at. also working on getting this dually i found. and Yes i am still trying to plan to come for bugday but wont have anything to run.

CJ

[Fox351]

I personally went with a Hyd. 351 Windsor but not to say that a Clevland won't fit but it is easier to do a Windsor and if you are looking for cheaper power go with a 351 and you won't have to do all that machine work on the 302 to get the same displacement....you will just need some different motor mounts and oil pan and if you want to keep power steering and/or A/c than you will have to buy some special lines along with the brackets to keep them....as far as transmission if you plan on making more power you will need to upgrade either a t5 trans or you can go get a stronger Tremec. I am personally go with the TKO 500. I hope this helps you in any way and if you have anymore questions I will PM you all the info I have on the subject.

[blackshine007]

*Random and usesless info update* Did you know that the 302 was called a 5.0 because Ford bought the rights for it, knowing good and well it's a 4.9L. They figured they'll just round it off and call it a day. *End random and useless info update*

[The_ CaneCorso]

Ok lets say I need the 351C. So I would have to get motor mounts for it. I hope to buy a front clip so it has all the wire hareness and p/s and ac stuff. ALSO IF I got a 351c would the computer from the vehicle it came out of work or how would I go about that? ANother thing I cant remember what its called but its lifts that also stabilez the backend so when you "gun" it the bottom does not drop in the ground it just goes. What is that called again?

[The_ CaneCorso]

*Random and usesless info update* Did you know that the 302 was called a 5.0 because Ford bought the rights for it, knowing good and well it's a 4.9L. They figured they'll just round it off and call it a day. *End random and useless info update*
like all liter bikes are really .998 or .997 but we call them 1k.

One other thing CAN you get a 351C fule injected. I hate carbs and nothing like having to change their setup depending on weather temp.

[The_ CaneCorso]

I personally went with a Hyd. 351 Windsor but not to say that a Clevland won't fit but it is easier to do a Windsor and if you are looking for cheaper power go with a 351 and you won't have to do all that machine work on the 302 to get the same displacement....you will just need some different motor mounts and oil pan and if you want to keep power steering and/or A/c than you will have to buy some special lines along with the brackets to keep them....as far as transmission if you plan on making more power you will need to upgrade either a t5 trans or you can go get a stronger Tremec. I am personally go with the TKO 500. I hope this helps you in any way and if you have anymore questions I will PM you all the info I have on the subject.

Whats wrong with the oil pan that comes on it?

[blackshine007]

like all liter bikes are really .998 or .997 but we call them 1k.

One other thing CAN you get a 351C fule injected. I hate carbs and nothing like having to change their setup depending on weather temp.
This was a big enough difference that the displacement was actually close to 4935cc, an actual 4.9L

[Catnip]

Theirs an LX coupe with a 351 windsor on Atlanta Craigslist right now. Good looking car, might be worth checking out.

[JRDman]

ok first off the cleveland is Carbed and you dont have to change the setup every time the weather changes if you have it tuned right.

the best and only way to do a carbed setup is get everything together and get it tuned on a dyno like you should with any setup.

if you really want a 351c car a buddy has a fuel injectoed t top fox for sale.

CJ

[BUGMAN]

Ok lets say I need the 351C.

If your seriously wanting to go fast with a 351C fuel injected I feel sorry for ya!

Good luck and I really hope it works out for you but I don't see it happening anywhere in the ball park of a nice 351W combo.

[BUGMAN]

Whats wrong with the oil pan that comes on it?

Even if you go with a 351W your gonna have to get a dbl hump oil pan for the fox body style setup or it will not fit in the car. :)

[BUGMAN]

I personally went with a Hyd. 351 Windsor

Smart decision! I like the 302's simply because I can make them fairly quick and have tons of parts. The 302 in the Gray coupe ran a 6.41 (1/8th) on a lil 75 shot. The stock bottom end 302 in the wife's T-Top runs 10.40's for 4 years now with no issues and my Gt with a 347 runs 6.30's on a 100 shot for 3 years now sweet as pie. Dont forget our daughters white LX stock 302 bottom end that recently put a 10.99 with out of the box heads on a 75 shot.

The wife's black hatch with a 351W ran a 10.48 on motor straight out of the trailer and with a 75 shot ran a (6.41 1/8th mile) 10.05 @ 137 bogging off the line with a 2,200 stall and radial tires. Kinda excited to see what it does on both kit's and a 4,500 stall. :)

It all depends on the matched combination and how you build it. I don't think I will ever build a 351C unless I get really bored and someone gives me a ton of parts for free.

P.S All our cars are carb'd
and dyno tuned.

[BUGMAN]

Bugman.. i have been working my ass off trying to get my stuff together for my new shop. I am meeting with the realtor guy tommorrow that is in charge of the area you recommended i look at. also working on getting this dually i found. and Yes i am still trying to plan to come for bugday but wont have anything to run.

CJ

If ya get a dually you can pull one of our cars up for us. :)

[BUGMAN]

whats the diference between the c and w?

The Cleveland is commonly used for a boat anchor and the Windsor family is still kicking azz!

[JRDman]

hopen to have it soon but would be glad too!

06 F350 diesel. all options. factory installed towing package with trailer brakes and goose neck.

[The_ CaneCorso]

If your seriously wanting to go fast with a 351C fuel injected I feel sorry for ya!

Good luck and I really hope it works out for you but I don't see it happening anywhere in the ball park of a nice 351W combo.

Sorry I meant 351w

[The_ CaneCorso]

I personally went with a Hyd. 351 Windsor .


what is a hyd. windsor?

[JRDman]

the lifter setup. Depending on the year of the motor will depend if its hydrolic or solid roller.

[The_ CaneCorso]

So much to learn.

[FAHHQUE700]

I'll sell ya a turbo 281ci 4v mud mota for 25k that makes 850+ ready to run...

[GangstaCoupe]

The Cleveland is commonly used for a boat anchor and the Windsor family is still kicking azz!

Funny you say that seeing how most of those high $$$ ford motors have canted valve heads on them. I cannot think of one class anywhere where a Windsor head is banned and a Cleveland head is legal. Now vice versa.......There end lies your answer. That being said the cleveland isnt for everyone, ie not your average backyard hack can throw one together and make it run, unlike a windsor.

[Catnip]

you said toss the 351 but then you said stick with it? Toss the 351c and go with a 351windsor or what do you mean? Also Nos, no. I want to basically have a 10-11 sec car that pops up a wheelie on the go, but not so far fetched that I cant drive it to the store if needed.

Nitrous isn't a bad thing. My dad used it for 4 years on his camaro, tore the motor apart and it looked brand new (built another motor for the car). That was the first set up with nitrous, no prior experience with it. When we let an idiot install the next setup, he put the nitrous side pills in the fuel side and the fuel side pills in the nitrous side, needless to say, the motor ended up with a couple crushed pistons, yet still ran a 9.4 in the 1/4 mile.

I have to agree with everyone on here, a N/A 10 second car won't be too fun on the street. I've ridden in my dad's camaros on the street, it's cool for about 15 minutes.

Carb setups don't have to be constantly tuned. There's a guy in my town that rebuilds carbs and tunes them for your setup, usually charges $100. Once it's done, we don't have to do it again till we change the motor. My buddy's turbo (fuel injected) eclipse on the other hand, has to be tuned constantly.

Personally, I'd go for a 306 with a procharger, tubular k-member/control arms, coilovers, street slicks, and good clutch for a T-5.

[BUGMAN]

Funny you say that seeing how most of those high $$$ ford motors have canted valve heads on them. I cannot think of one class anywhere where a Windsor head is banned and a Cleveland head is legal. Now vice versa.......There end lies your answer. That being said the cleveland isnt for everyone, ie not your average backyard hack can throw one together and make it run, unlike a windsor.

I don't think he is planning on running in a NHRA class anytime soon. As for the Windsor kicking azz I will stand my ground based on his build and questions. He is trying to build a budget engine and the Windsor 302/351 is definitely the way to go. If you want to open it up to top fuel dragster and Pro Mod classes then your in the wrong section all together. If you pay attention to what "HE" wants you may understand my entire favoritism towards the W family.

He has little experience so again the Windsor would be my first choice to suggest to him. Like you said above: the cleveland isnt for everyone, ie not your average backyard hack can throw one together and make it run, unlike a windsor.

I honestly do not think he would be happy building a Cleveland for good power with his budget.

[JRDman]

completely agree bugman!

ps found the shop im thinkin of getting today

[The_ CaneCorso]

Ok thinks for all your answers. Still trying to decide. Im proabably going to dump10-20k if needed in this over a years time. I want POWER but longevity. ONLY reason I had a bad taste in my mouth about carbs cause my last bike I had issues. It had 38mm mikuni carbs and I put 44mm carbs on it with v stack, ram air with a intake per carb,stage 3 jets and exhaust. Forged pistons,higher compressed heads. I got it to run very nice but then it started getting fuel lag and I dont know much about adjusting jets so Im like ok next bike will be fuel injected.

[The_ CaneCorso]

so if I went with the 302, i would do a 331 or 347, still reserching the 2. Headers,exhaust (not sure which one) intake,maybe supercharged. Bigger tires,nice suspension so at the punch of the gas the car doesnt sink in the ground then goes. Then maybe n20 but would have to study which kind ot get and setup. ALSO WHAT IS THIS?

[JRDman]

thats a BBK intake manifold. Honestly not really worth the money they are asking for it.

if your going stroker do the 347. some form of long tube , exhaust is preferance, supercharger setups can be picked up all day long off of corral.net ( big mustang site) cheap. bigger tires are nice just dont go overkill because they arent need. the pic in bugmans aviator is on 275 wide drag radials i believe.

suspension wise UPR front and rear kit with a decent shock and spring and your set. and theres always people selling this stuff... like me! ( getting out of mustang stuff)

CJ

[The_ CaneCorso]

Ok the bbk intake what kind of difference does it make? Also so you favor the 347 over the 331? I want it to scream down the dragway but I want also be able to goto the store with it or maybe a little crusing. ANother thing IF i went with a 351W, I have seen 2 differetn size stroker kits for it. What computer would I use for it? The computer out of the vehile it came from or what?

[BUGMAN]

Ok the bbk intake what kind of difference does it make? Also so you favor the 347 over the 331? I want it to scream down the dragway but I want also be able to goto the store with it or maybe a little crusing. ANother thing IF i went with a 351W, I have seen 2 differetn size stroker kits for it. What computer would I use for it? The computer out of the vehile it came from or what?

Depending on the build the 347/331 isn't all that far apart in power. Most would prefer the most cubic inches possible but that is not always the case in different builds. I have several 331's and 347's and for the street I prefer the 331's but only by a slight margin simply because of the torque curve I have gotten from the ones that we have built. Either combination would be fine. If you want to save money then you can build a mild 306 with some good heads and a blower and make enough power to get deep in the 10's. I have several 306 engines running 10.0's and could easily be in the 9 second range with a little effort.

I have seen a bone stock 302 with an old "A" Trim on it running 12.20's. The only after market part on the entire car was a 3.73 gear and a MSD 6AL box.

I thought you were doing a budget build but if you have 20k to sink in an engine in the next 12 months you need to Call Steve Petty @ http://www.prolineraceengines.com/ and let him build you one and stop worrying about all this. You can tell them that I sent ya! They do awesome work and leave all the guessing and stress for you out of it.

That BBK intake is a P.O.S. IMO. like JRD said. No where near worth the money even though it does look kinda cool.

[BUGMAN]

I would suggest a 331/V-1 or V-2 SQ , A9L factory computer with a custom chip for tuning which can also be done through Proline/MPH and then you will have your EFI streetable 10 second ride. :D

[The_ CaneCorso]

Depending on the build the 347/331 isn't all that far apart in power. Most would prefer the most cubic inches possible but that is not always the case in different builds. I have several 331's and 347's and for the street I prefer the 331's but only by a slight margin simply because of the torque curve I have gotten from the ones that we have built. Either combination would be fine. If you want to save money then you can build a mild 306 with some good heads and a blower and make enough power to get deep in the 10's. I have several 306 engines running 10.0's and could easily be in the 9 second range with a little effort.

I have seen a bone stock 302 with an old "A" Trim on it running 12.20's. The only after market part on the entire car was a 3.73 gear and a MSD 6AL box.

I thought you were doing a budget build but if you have 20k to sink in an engine in the next 12 months you need to Call Steve Petty @ http://www.prolineraceengines.com/ and let him build you one and stop worrying about all this. You can tell them that I sent ya! They do awesome work and leave all the guessing and stress for you out of it.

That BBK intake is a P.O.S. IMO. like JRD said. No where near worth the money even though it does look kinda cool.

I dont have 10-20k right this sec but within 12 months I could get this much. Also I really wnat to do somethign myself. Ok what is a 306 motor?

[JRDman]

a 306 is a 302 block that has been bored .030

you sound alot like me. changing your mind about what you want ( combination wise)

first off it sounds like you want a somewhat street car but dont really need it for daily purposes so you can go a little bit crazy. Do you want boost, all motor, or both me and bugmans favorite all motor with a "little" bit of spray. Nitrous is very safe if done right but alot of people dont know what the **** they are doing so they do all sorts of weird **** with timing and fuel. this might help you out for as having a fun street car then turn the bottles on to blow down the drag strip or what ever pulls up at a stop light. If you do nitrous get the Digital 6 box from MSD it retards the timing when the nitrous setup is on automatically so you dont have to fiddle with the timing when the bottle is off or on.

if you want inches like most guys do.. just do a cleaned up 351. a .030 351 with a better bottom end wont cost you an arm and a leg but will be damn stout and can get a little more torque. in all honesty theres some bad ass little 306's rollin around so its not always about how many inches.its about the combination! i cant stress that enough.




the biggest thing is.. do you REALLYY have 10-20k to spend? because it wont get you any brownie points with us throwing dollar signs around. trust me some of us can throw more money at our cars than we know what to do with. but that doesnt mean anything. also, this comes from my road racing background. Id recommend you building a car that you can build off of later to go faster. get a good foundation with a cage and suspension, brakes, etc. so that as you personally get faster so can your car.

sorry its soo damn long.

CJ

[GangstaCoupe]

I don't think he is planning on running in a NHRA class anytime soon. As for the Windsor kicking azz I will stand my ground based on his build and questions. He is trying to build a budget engine and the Windsor 302/351 is definitely the way to go. If you want to open it up to top fuel dragster and Pro Mod classes then your in the wrong section all together. If you pay attention to what "HE" wants you may understand my entire favoritism towards the W family.

He has little experience so again the Windsor would be my first choice to suggest to him. Like you said above: the cleveland isnt for everyone, ie not your average backyard hack can throw one together and make it run, unlike a windsor.

I honestly do not think he would be happy building a Cleveland for good power with his budget.

I realize you have no idea what I am talking about now, I wasnt talking about top fuel or any type of pro class. Simply most good heads for the bigger inch windsors are a canted valve style head such as blue thunder, Yates, CHI, Pro kings, ect...but I wont derail this thread anymore.

[JRDman]

might be... might not be.. everything ive seen depends on the setup.

CJ

[The_ CaneCorso]

a 306 is a 302 block that has been bored .030

you sound alot like me. changing your mind about what you want ( combination wise)

first off it sounds like you want a somewhat street car but dont really need it for daily purposes so you can go a little bit crazy. Do you want boost, all motor, or both me and bugmans favorite all motor with a "little" bit of spray. Nitrous is very safe if done right but alot of people dont know what the **** they are doing so they do all sorts of weird **** with timing and fuel. this might help you out for as having a fun street car then turn the bottles on to blow down the drag strip or what ever pulls up at a stop light. If you do nitrous get the Digital 6 box from MSD it retards the timing when the nitrous setup is on automatically so you dont have to fiddle with the timing when the bottle is off or on.

if you want inches like most guys do.. just do a cleaned up 351. a .030 351 with a better bottom end wont cost you an arm and a leg but will be damn stout and can get a little more torque. in all honesty theres some bad ass little 306's rollin around so its not always about how many inches.its about the combination! i cant stress that enough.




the biggest thing is.. do you REALLYY have 10-20k to spend? because it wont get you any brownie points with us throwing dollar signs around. trust me some of us can throw more money at our cars than we know what to do with. but that doesnt mean anything. also, this comes from my road racing background. Id recommend you building a car that you can build off of later to go faster. get a good foundation with a cage and suspension, brakes, etc. so that as you personally get faster so can your car.

sorry its soo damn long.

CJ

Yes I will have that amount in about 6 months when my bonus check comes.
Ok so a 306 is a 302 bored over? So that mean you bore the piston walls to make them bigger and put bigger pistons in them? Im leaning more and more to the 302 just because it seems like butt loads of parts for them are everywhere.Also Ive heard of people and N20 blowing up their engine but I see your point "IF" its done right then it can be great. So would you favor the 306 or the 331? Is there a way I cna find out hp and tq on the 331 and 347? My cousin has a 88lx and he wants to do the 331, so thats why Im enquiring about it now. One more thing if I found a shell that used to have a 4cyc in it and I go and put a v8 is there going to be a problem? Meaning the suspension it came with and other things. Also this question has not been answered unless I missed it. IF I went with different motor, like a 351. What computer would I use?

[BUGMAN]

I realize you have no idea what I am talking about now, I wasnt talking about top fuel or any type of pro class. Simply most good heads for the bigger inch windsors are a canted valve style head such as blue thunder, Yates, CHI, Pro kings, ect...but I wont derail this thread anymore.

Yeah I understand but I read something that made me think he was building a "Budget" motor/combo.

If he has 20k then I would definitely suggest Yates or Canfields. :) I have a really nice set of Yates SC1 that I will let go for 6k. I also know where a very nice Nascar type engine is for $16k compete with headers, trans and converter.

I looked back and don't see what I thought I read so sorry for that. CRS is killing my old azz I guess.

[BUGMAN]

One more thing if I found a shell that used to have a 4cyc in it and I go and put a v8 is there going to be a problem? Meaning the suspension it came with and other things.

I have probably 7-8 that use to be 4 cylinder cars now. If your doing a ground up build then it will never make a difference. I would suggest changing the rear springs to V-8 springs but that's all I can think ot right now. I have one here now with a lill 306 that is a complete 4 cylinder chassis/body except for the engine mounts, fuel system, wheels and tires with sub-frame connectors, K-member, upper and lower control arms and a few other additons and it runs 10.60's on a Radial tire (carb'd of course).

If your trying to build a monster and want to spend 20k then you should post that in your first post instead of asking about cheap azz GT-40 heads.

[BUGMAN]

YIF I went with different motor, like a 351. What computer would I use?

You don't need a computer with a Carb. setup. :bannana:

[The_ CaneCorso]

I have probably 7-8 that use to be 4 cylinder cars now. If your doing a ground up build then it will never make a difference. I would suggest changing the rear springs to V-8 springs but that's all I can think ot right now. I have one here now with a lill 306 that is a complete 4 cylinder chassis/body except for the engine mounts, fuel system, wheels and tires with sub-frame connectors, K-member, upper and lower control arms and a few other additons and it runs 10.60's on a Radial tire (carb'd of course).

If your trying to build a monster and want to spend 20k then you should post that in your first post instead of asking about cheap azz GT-40 heads.

gt-40 heads?
Yea I was asking about the 4cyc thing cause I have seen shells that used to have them and I was j/c what needs to be changed when adding a V8. Also just cause Im getting a nice bonus doesnt eman I want to put it all in the project, just saying it will be there.

[Init2winit]

I realize you have no idea what I am talking about now, I wasnt talking about top fuel or any type of pro class. Simply most good heads for the bigger inch windsors are a canted valve style head such as blue thunder, Yates, CHI, Pro kings, ect...but I wont derail this thread anymore.Yates heads are actually not canted. I don't believe nascar allows for canted valve heads.

[JRDman]

oh chris... I bought my old car back from Ryan. so im also thinking about buying the motor he was ( my old motor) if its still out of something and or you still want to sell it. if not no biggy.

CJ

[GangstaCoupe]

I was thinking of Kasse and typed Yates.

Your right about the yates heads though, I always get the c302b's and yates diffrences confused. As far as I know though c/v heads are still legal in nascar, They took the cant out to up compression by doing away with the huge valve reliefs. At least thats what I was told...

[The_ CaneCorso]

canted valves?