VA pressing charges againest vick,uh oh

[OneSlow5pt0]

County Prosecutor Plans to Indict Vick

By HANK KURZ Jr., AP Sports Writer

document.write(getElapsed("20070925T032000Z"));2 hours agoUPDATED 19 MINUTES AGO

http://www.comcast.net/data/br/2007/09/24/br-52073.jpg (http://www.comcast.net/data/news/photoshow/html/news/771757.html)Atlanta Falcons football player Michael Vick leaves federal court ... (http://www.comcast.net/data/news/photoshow/html/news/771757.html)


RICHMOND, Va. - The prosecutor in the rural county where Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has admitted to bankrolling a dogfighting operation plans to present "a host of bills of indictment" regarding the case to a grand jury on Tuesday.

"Yes, I'm presenting matters to the grand jury that involve dogfighting at 1915 Moonlight Road," Surry County Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald G. Poindexter told The Associated Press in a telephone interview Monday night.

Moonlight Road is the address of the two story home on 15 mostly undeveloped acres that has been host to "Bad Newz Kennels" since 2001. It's where dozens of pit bulls were found in April, and where they were trained, fought and brutally executed.

"Most of the matters that I'm presenting have already been admitted in sworn statements authored by the defendants in the federal proceedings," Poindexter said.

He couldn't detail the exact indictments he will pursue, but said the local investigation and the federal investigation largely focused on different crimes.

"The killing of dogs is one of those statutory prohibitions. Dogfighting is a crime, the mistreatment of animals is a crime, so you could take your pick, or take them all," Poindexter said before cutting the conversation short. "I don't have anything else to say about it. I'm through with it. Hopefully it's coming to an end."

Vick, his co-defendants and lawyers will not attend the closed proceeding.

Efforts to reach Vick's lawyers by telephone and e-mail were not successful.

Vick and three co-defendants have already pleaded guilty to conspiracy charges in the case, and all are awaiting sentencing in federal court before the end of the year.

Vick, who faces up to five years in prison, also has been indefinitely suspended without pay by the NFL and been dropped by all his major sponsors, including Nike.

The local charges, and a conviction, could spell an end to any hope he has of resuming his NFL career after serving a likely federal prison term. An animal cruelty charge in Virginia is punishable by up to five years in prison, and he admitted in his written plea to helping kill six to eight pit bulls days before the first raid.

That alone could expose him to as many as 40 years in prison.

Vick, in his written plea, also admitted to supplying money for gambling on the fights involving Bad Newz Kennels dogs. He said he did not personally place any bets or share in any winnings, but gave his three co-defendants all those proceeds.

The co-defendants, all of whom pleaded guilty before Vick and detailed what they said was his involvement, agreed to testify against him had the case gone to trial.

The case began in late April when authorities conducting a drug investigation of Vick's cousin raided the former Virginia Tech star's property and seized dozens of dogs, most of them pit bulls, and equipment commonly associated with dogfighting.

Six weeks later, with the local investigation perceived to be dragging and a search warrant allowed to expire, federal agents arrived with their own search warrants and started digging up dog carcasses buried days before the first raid.

Poindexter, who had been widely criticized for the pace of the investigation, reacted angrily when the feds moved in, suggesting that Vick's celebrity was a draw, or that their pursuit of the case could have racial overtones. He later eased off those comments, saying that the sides would simply be pursuing parallel investigations.

[bigdare23]

Money makes the world go round.

[The12lber]

Good, I hope he gets the maximum sentence.

[sshonda2004]

im so sick of this shit, hes obviously being singled out, he made a mistake just like every american does, GET OVER IT PEOPLE let the man pay his debts and continue with his life. people didnt get this fired up when that drunk ass hockey player killed his team mate, they didnt take his career from him, and obviously a mans life is waay more valued than a muthafukin dog who could really give two shits about its owner.

[OneSlow5pt0]

]im so sick of this shit, hes obviously being singled out, he made a mistake just like every american does[/b], GET OVER IT PEOPLE let the man pay his debts and continue with his life. people didnt get this fired up when that drunk ass hockey player killed his team mate, they didnt take his career from him, and obviously a mans life is waay more valued than a muthafukin dog who could really give two shits about its owner.


:umno:

[81911SC]

:umno:
x2

[sshonda2004]

uh what you saying no for, its the truth, human life is more important than a fuckin dog, come on dont be a idiot

[OneSlow5pt0]

uh what you saying no for, its the truth, human life is more important than a fuckin dog, come on dont be a idiot

not always

[Deke]

not always

i.e. Michael Vick

[The12lber]

uh what you saying no for, its the truth, human life is more important than a fuckin dog, come on dont be a idiot

Inhuman behavior eventually strips you of your humanity, in a metaphysical sense.

Perhaps behavior like that conducted by Michael Vick question mark, hmm

[BanginJimmy]

im so sick of this shit, hes obviously being singled out, he made a mistake just like every american does, GET OVER IT PEOPLE let the man pay his debts and continue with his life. people didnt get this fired up when that drunk ass hockey player killed his team mate, they didnt take his career from him, and obviously a mans life is waay more valued than a muthafukin dog who could really give two shits about its owner.

Maybe he is being singled out because he is GUILTY. Has that ever occured to you? Let me guess you believe he has found god and is still a good person.

Also, a mistake is something that you do 1 time and learn from it. A mistake is NOT something you do over a 6+ year timeframe.

[sshonda2004]

i hear you, but im just sick of the overkill in this case, its getting crazy.
Maybe he is being singled out because he is GUILTY. Has that ever occured to you? Let me guess you believe he has found god and is still a good person.

Also, a mistake is something that you do 1 time and learn from it. A mistake is NOT something you do over a 6+ year timeframe.

[sshonda2004]

alot of people dont understand that this is a sport, dog fighting has been around for a long time, its still going on as we speak, but i do feel that vick should have known to seperate himself from this stuff considering his high profile

[OneSlow5pt0]

alot of people dont understand that this is a sport, dog fighting has been around for a long time, its still going on as we speak, but i do feel that vick should have known to seperate himself from this stuff considering his high profile

no,its a crime.......where peices of shit get off on hurting animals...

[sshonda2004]

yeah its sad man, i dont condone that at all. ive been around a few rottweilers whose purpose was to fight, and its not pretty.
no,its a crime.......where peices of shit get off on hurting animals...

[BanginJimmy]

alot of people dont understand that this is a sport, dog fighting has been around for a long time, its still going on as we speak, but i do feel that vick should have known to seperate himself from this stuff considering his high profile

where is the sport in it? Where do the participants in this 'sport' profit? How about this, we put you in a cage with a starving pit bull, and we will see if you still think its a sport.

I would also like to see 1 example of overkill. If anything he is getting off easy because of his money.

[Mr.Big]

im so sick of this shit, hes obviously being singled out, he made a mistake just like every american does, GET OVER IT PEOPLE let the man pay his debts and continue with his life. people didnt get this fired up when that drunk ass hockey player killed his team mate, they didnt take his career from him, and obviously a mans life is waay more valued than a muthafukin dog who could really give two shits about its owner.

Thank u !! This man knows what hes talking bout

[Mr.Big]

yeah its sad man, i dont condone that at all. ive been around a few rottweilers whose purpose was to fight, and its not pretty.

Their purpose is to guard

[Mr.Big]

uh what you saying no for, its the truth, human life is more important than a fuckin dog, come on dont be a idiot

Hes right again
Human life is more important than a dog. Aint no dog going to change the world. But 1 person can

[OneSlow5pt0]

..............sigh

guess u should been at the outside the lines live show,to boo like all the other ATL people..and make the city look like its full of retards

[BanginJimmy]

Mr. Big, since you wanted tog et involved in this, why dont you answer my questions. They shouldnt be all that difficult to answer.


Hypno,
no shit, the rest of the country now thinks of ATL as a bunch of knuckle dragging morons because of it. It really is sad that some people actualy believe what he did is ok. Makes me wonder what happened to the morals of this country.

[Mr.Big]

Whats ur question?

[Mr.Big]

where is the sport in it? Where do the participants in this 'sport' profit? How about this, we put you in a cage with a starving pit bull, and we will see if you still think its a sport.

I would also like to see 1 example of overkill. If anything he is getting off easy because of his money.

Man deer huntin is a sport!! Tell u what put u with those wild deers
and have someone hunting ur ass

[Bruce Leroy]

Hypno,
no shit, the rest of the country now thinks of ATL as a bunch of knuckle dragging morons because of it. It really is sad that some people actualy believe what he did is ok. Makes me wonder what happened to the morals of this country.

What he did was wrong, but let him pay his debt and get over it already. What sshonda said is sooo true. Dany Heatley was driving drunk, crashed his ferrari and killed his team mate. He gets 3 years PROBATION. So if i kill a person I'll just get probation, but if i kill a dog, then I could go to jail for years. Its not right.

[Mr.Big]

What he did was wrong, but let him pay his debt and get over it already. What sshonda said is sooo true. Dany Heatley was driving drunk, crashed his ferrari and killed his team mate. He gets 3 years PROBATION. So if i kill a person I'll just get probation, but if i kill a dog, then I could go to jail for years. Its not right.

Yea its bullshit!! And there are people on this site that think a dog life is worth more than a human!! come on now!!

[BanginJimmy]

Man deer huntin is a sport!! Tell u what put u with those wild deers
and have someone hunting ur ass


when did I ever say hunting was a sport? On the other hand there is a purpose towards hunting. I know many hunters and every single one of them kill for the meat. Was Vick eating the meat? On top of that he was torturing the dogs.

You still didnt answer me though, how is dog fighting a sport? What do the participants of this 'sport' gain?

Heatley pleaded guilty to 2nd deg vehicular homicide. He was well under the legal limit so drunk driving wasnt the issue. Only sppeding and reckless driving. So yes I do see purposely torturing and killing dogs is worse than speeding and getting into a wreck that kills someone.

[Mr.Big]

when did I ever say hunting was a sport? On the other hand there is a purpose towards hunting. I know many hunters and every single one of them kill for the meat. Was Vick eating the meat? On top of that he was torturing the dogs.

You still didnt answer me though, how is dog fighting a sport? What do the participants of this 'sport' gain?

Heatley pleaded guilty to 2nd deg vehicular homicide. He was well under the legal limit so drunk driving wasnt the issue. Only sppeding and reckless driving. So yes I do see purposely torturing and killing dogs is worse than speeding and getting into a wreck that kills someone.

man u sound dumb.
And i know that u didt say noythin bout deer huntin but I did!!

So u speakin for all hunters or ur friend?
I know for a fact that all these deer hunter dont kill for meat

Just like everybody fightin these dogs aint just doing it for the money

[Mr.Big]

So yes I do see purposely torturing and killing dogs is worse than speeding and getting into a wreck that kills someone.[/QUOTE]




U cant be 4 real!! So a person thats kills someone in a car wreck cause they was drunk . is worse than what those type of dog (pitbull)was breed to do??

How dare u put a dogs life in front of a humans

There will never be a dog thats will change the world

[OneSlow5pt0]

So yes I do see purposely torturing and killing dogs is worse than speeding and getting into a wreck that kills someone.

U cant be 4 real!![/QUOTE]


torturing animals mean u are very fucked up in the head,and probbly need to be on meds in a mental hospital

[Mr.Big]

Motherfucker i aint say it was right to fight dogs
So shut ur bitch ass up talkin to me

[OneSlow5pt0]

Motherfucker i aint say it was right to fight dogs
So shut ur bitch ass up talkin to me

wow,your real showing your high IQ:goodjob:

[Mr.Big]

how your real showing your high IQ:goodjob:

I dont get it?

[BanginJimmy]

I dont get it?

point proven



and again getting into an accident and killing someone is not worse than purposely torturing and killing dogs.

Yes he was speeding, but no he wasnt drunk.

and you know that all hunters dont kill for meat how? again I never said they did, just the ones I know. But there are plenty of others that hunt for the trophy (head and rack) and according to the guy I buy my deer meat from most of those are slaughtered and the meat sold.

[Mr.Big]

yea whatever yall think or think yall know
Aint bout to argue bout how u think bout dogs having more of a
right to live more than ur own self

[BanginJimmy]

yea whatever yall think or think yall know
Aint bout to argue bout how u think bout dogs having more of a
right to live more than ur own self


what did you just say? Try english this time.

[Bruce Leroy]

I understood exactly what he said.

[BanginJimmy]

I understood exactly what he said.

would you mind translating?

[sshonda2004]

man let me ask you this jimmy, if someone killed one of your family members because he wanted to show out and be a badass in his car, how would you honestly feel if all they got was a slap on the wrist?

[Bruce Leroy]

yea whatever yall think or think yall know
Aint bout to argue bout how u think bout dogs having more of a
right to live more than ur own self

Despite whatever you think you know. I'm not going to argue about you view of a dog having a right to live, rather than a person.

[1000cckiller]

County Prosecutor Plans to Indict Vick

By HANK KURZ Jr., AP Sports Writer

document.write(getElapsed("20070925T032000Z"));2 hours agoUPDATED 19 MINUTES AGO

http://www.comcast.net/data/br/2007/09/24/br-52073.jpg (http://www.comcast.net/data/news/photoshow/html/news/771757.html)Atlanta Falcons football player Michael Vick leaves federal court ... (http://www.comcast.net/data/news/photoshow/html/news/771757.html)


RICHMOND, Va. - The prosecutor in the rural county where Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has admitted to bankrolling a dogfighting operation plans to present "a host of bills of indictment" regarding the case to a grand jury on Tuesday.

"Yes, I'm presenting matters to the grand jury that involve dogfighting at 1915 Moonlight Road," Surry County Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald G. Poindexter told The Associated Press in a telephone interview Monday night.

Moonlight Road is the address of the two story home on 15 mostly undeveloped acres that has been host to "Bad Newz Kennels" since 2001. It's where dozens of pit bulls were found in April, and where they were trained, fought and brutally executed.

"Most of the matters that I'm presenting have already been admitted in sworn statements authored by the defendants in the federal proceedings," Poindexter said.

He couldn't detail the exact indictments he will pursue, but said the local investigation and the federal investigation largely focused on different crimes.

"The killing of dogs is one of those statutory prohibitions. Dogfighting is a crime, the mistreatment of animals is a crime, so you could take your pick, or take them all," Poindexter said before cutting the conversation short. "I don't have anything else to say about it. I'm through with it. Hopefully it's coming to an end."

Vick, his co-defendants and lawyers will not attend the closed proceeding.

Efforts to reach Vick's lawyers by telephone and e-mail were not successful.

Vick and three co-defendants have already pleaded guilty to conspiracy charges in the case, and all are awaiting sentencing in federal court before the end of the year.

Vick, who faces up to five years in prison, also has been indefinitely suspended without pay by the NFL and been dropped by all his major sponsors, including Nike.

The local charges, and a conviction, could spell an end to any hope he has of resuming his NFL career after serving a likely federal prison term. An animal cruelty charge in Virginia is punishable by up to five years in prison, and he admitted in his written plea to helping kill six to eight pit bulls days before the first raid.

That alone could expose him to as many as 40 years in prison.

Vick, in his written plea, also admitted to supplying money for gambling on the fights involving Bad Newz Kennels dogs. He said he did not personally place any bets or share in any winnings, but gave his three co-defendants all those proceeds.

The co-defendants, all of whom pleaded guilty before Vick and detailed what they said was his involvement, agreed to testify against him had the case gone to trial.

The case began in late April when authorities conducting a drug investigation of Vick's cousin raided the former Virginia Tech star's property and seized dozens of dogs, most of them pit bulls, and equipment commonly associated with dogfighting.

Six weeks later, with the local investigation perceived to be dragging and a search warrant allowed to expire, federal agents arrived with their own search warrants and started digging up dog carcasses buried days before the first raid.

Poindexter, who had been widely criticized for the pace of the investigation, reacted angrily when the feds moved in, suggesting that Vick's celebrity was a draw, or that their pursuit of the case could have racial overtones. He later eased off those comments, saying that the sides would simply be pursuing parallel investigations.You must like sucking Vick's ****, because everytime something happens with him you post about it.

[1000cckiller]

wow,your real showing your high IQ:goodjob:Toad you are a real piece of s-h-i-t, and you need to STFU. Let grown people talk about dis here youngster.

[Jaimecbr900]

Here we go again with the ignorant and polar opposite comparison of what Michael Vick did to dogs and "deer hunting".


Yall are really retarded if you think that hunters walk up to deer, deer that have been DOMESTICATED and are used to YOU feeding them and YOU taking care of them, and strap electrodes up to them to shock them to death or maybe pick them up and body slam them or maybe shoot them in the head only to bury them in a shallow hole or maybe let it fight another deer until it bleeds to death. I know a ton of hunters that do that.....:rolleyes: Whatever. Yall are really retarded. Quit comparing apples to 747's, it's NOT a comparison.

It really would be a lot simpler if Vick wasn't a celebrity. He would have been found guilty, like all the other people ever prosecuted for dog fighting, and he'd been sentenced. The end. Now, insert the race card and ignorance like it's being shown in this very thread and you have a circus. People trying to justify his actions by saying it's a "sport" or the dog's are bred for that "purpose".....people trying to justify his actions by using the race card.....supporters trying to justify it by saying they're only going after him because he has money.....idiots standing up on LIVE National TV to support a man that has not only disgraced himself, but also his own entire race.

Bottomline is really simple:

-Is dog fighting a crime or not? Yes.
-Did Vick own dogs that were fought? Yes.
-Did Vick fight dogs? Yes.
-Did Vick bet on dog fights? Yes.
-Did Vick finance dog fights? Yes.
-Did Vick own the property where this took place? Yes.
-Did Vick KNOW about it? Yes.
-Did Vick KILL dogs by electrocuting, shooting, and slamming them? Yes.
-Did Vick have a lot to lose? Yes.
-Was he a total idiot in remotely involving himself with any of this? Yes.
-Did Vick not have millions upon millions of dollars at stake? Yes.
-Did Vick put himself in a situation to lose millions of dollars, over dogs? Yes.
-Is Vick an adult? Yes.
-Did Vick plead guilty? Yes.


What is so unclear about this? You either support Vick or you don't. There is no gray area. It's very black and white. If you support him, then you support the actions that got him soon to be a convicted felon. You don't have to hate the guy. You don't have to wish him harm. You also don't have to hide behind color either. He either screwed up or he didn't. It's really that simple. It has nothing to do with color and everything to do with human decency and common sense. All of those that support him and what he did lack both.

[OneSlow5pt0]

You must like sucking Vick's ****, because everytime something happens with him you post about it.

no,but i love showing everybody how much of a piece of **** he is:goodjob:

[ahabion]

I know its been over and done with but just my .02:

alot of folks i gues think that dog fighting "shouldn't" be such a big deal because many people do find it as a sport. I for one don't care for it but I don't condemn it either. Dogs are just another animal to me. Do whatever you want with them, dogs are considered property in the eyes of the law. Have a divorce, and that property is going to go to someone.

In any case, its only in America that we hold our dogs so sacredly here, and maybe the English as well. But in other parts of the world, they're fodder... good for eating or play.

Of course this is America, and here in America, dog fighting is illegal... but again... to put it in perspective... I raise and fight fish (Siamese Fighting fishes) and believe it or not, I've seen betting and fighting rings alike for fishes... go figure eh?

What I find odd but interesting, is that here in America as well... we are open to what "foreigners" or "outsiders" have to say as far as our religious, political, and social views go (i.e. Removing "In God We Trust" from our currency, since of course not everyone here believes in God but yet, that saying has been engrained into our American culture starting from our founding fathers) but when it comes to personal issues such as the food we eat or the animals we keep, we refuse to "evolve" with the world around us. Ironic...

[BanginJimmy]

I know its been over and done with but just my .02:

alot of folks i gues think that dog fighting "shouldn't" be such a big deal because many people do find it as a sport. I for one don't care for it but I don't condemn it either. Dogs are just another animal to me. Do whatever you want with them, dogs are considered property in the eyes of the law. Have a divorce, and that property is going to go to someone.

In any case, its only in America that we hold our dogs so sacredly here, and maybe the English as well. But in other parts of the world, they're fodder... good for eating or play.

Of course this is America, and here in America, dog fighting is illegal... but again... to put it in perspective... I raise and fight fish (Siamese Fighting fishes) and believe it or not, I've seen betting and fighting rings alike for fishes... go figure eh?

What I find odd but interesting, is that here in America as well... we are open to what "foreigners" or "outsiders" have to say as far as our religious, political, and social views go (i.e. Removing "In God We Trust" from our currency, since of course not everyone here believes in God but yet, that saying has been engrained into our American culture starting from our founding fathers) but when it comes to personal issues such as the food we eat or the animals we keep, we refuse to "evolve" with the world around us. Ironic...

you are a sick ****, please die soon without infecting another generation.

and we, as americans, are evolving, thats why dont allow barbaric and cruel practices to take place. Its the 3rd world countries that allow things like that, not us.

[The12lber]

yea whatever yall think or think yall know
Aint bout to argue bout how u think bout dogs having more of a
right to live more than ur own self

Nobody is arguing that the dog has more of a right to live than a human being. I believe what's being argued is that intentionally torturing and killing domesticated animals is immoral and sadistic and deserves prosecution to the full extent of the law.

As far as the hunting comparison goes, it just isn't there, at all. Predation is a natural function in any ecosystem... for quite a while before humans showed up... its a necessary function to maintain healthy stable populations of animals who's natural predators have largely been displaced by humans or animal populations affected by human factors. Care is taken to make a quick kill, the animal is in no way tortured.

Dog fighting on the other hand, takes a domestic rather than wild animal and essentially subjects that animal to a life time of unnatural cruelty, apparently deliberate torture and eventually intentionally inhumane methods of execution.

I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and say that if you get your rocks off watching these animals tear each other to pieces and then subsequently execute them in a sadistic manner, you are some manner of psychopath only a small step away from torturing and killing another human being.

In summary, you sir, are a moron and so is everyone else who tries to defend the practice.

[The12lber]

I know its been over and done with but just my .02:

alot of folks i gues think that dog fighting "shouldn't" be such a big deal because many people do find it as a sport. I for one don't care for it but I don't condemn it either. Dogs are just another animal to me. Do whatever you want with them, dogs are considered property in the eyes of the law. Have a divorce, and that property is going to go to someone.

In any case, its only in America that we hold our dogs so sacredly here, and maybe the English as well. But in other parts of the world, they're fodder... good for eating or play.

Of course this is America, and here in America, dog fighting is illegal... but again... to put it in perspective... I raise and fight fish (Siamese Fighting fishes) and believe it or not, I've seen betting and fighting rings alike for fishes... go figure eh?

What I find odd but interesting, is that here in America as well... we are open to what "foreigners" or "outsiders" have to say as far as our religious, political, and social views go (i.e. Removing "In God We Trust" from our currency, since of course not everyone here believes in God but yet, that saying has been engrained into our American culture starting from our founding fathers) but when it comes to personal issues such as the food we eat or the animals we keep, we refuse to "evolve" with the world around us. Ironic...

Almost all cultures with the limited exception of the Korean have a healthy respect for dogs. Muslims think their saliva is tainted but even they're not Mike Vicks. I'm actually amazed that you're so dumb you would only throw "maybe" England in with the United States, I figured that maybe you would at least lump the fairly obvious European nations in there as well.

In God We Trust was never removed from cash.

You're stupid for thinking you know things that you do not.

[ahabion]

Almost all cultures with the limited exception of the Korean have a healthy respect for dogs. Muslims think their saliva is tainted but even they're not Mike Vicks. I'm actually amazed that you're so dumb you would only throw "maybe" England in with the United States, I figured that maybe you would at least lump the fairly obvious European nations in there as well.

Its only in these parts of the world that we hold dogs up so highly. Of course the rest of the Eurpeans have dogs, but none of them commonly put them up on a pedestal or even consider them an extension of the family.

In India, cows have more rights that humans do. I wouldn't quite say India is quite 3rd world either, yet cows have free reign. Of course we wouldn't want that here now would we?



In God We Trust was never removed from cash.

Never said it was removed. Said that we are influenced by those not of us, hence the example of the heated debate of removing In God We Trust from money.

AND of course what was removed was the Under God in the pledge, but of course I'm not saying that its only outside influences that led to that, but outside influences did play a role in it.



You're stupid for thinking you know things that you do not.

:umno:
I read and comprehend. Understanding what is being said is whats important anyway.

[ahabion]

you are a sick ****, please die soon without infecting another generation.

and we, as americans, are evolving, thats why dont allow barbaric and cruel practices to take place. Its the 3rd world countries that allow things like that, not us.

LoL and yet we let rapist continue to live among our streets and murderers to be set free back into society... in 3rd world countries, even thieves get punished more severly than murderers do.

Grey hounds are treated the same way as Vick's pitbulls... they're starved, mistreated and locked up in tiny cages. Only difference being that dog racing IS considered a sanctioned sport. So I guess that makes it all better, huh?

Believe me, I respect animals as well. But when all is considered, they're just animals... why treat them better than any person?

[The12lber]

Its only in these parts of the world that we hold dogs up so highly. Of course the rest of the Eurpeans have dogs, but none of them commonly put them up on a pedestal or even consider them an extension of the family.

I'm sure you've got some hard hitting facts to back up all the objective data in that statement.

In India, cows have more rights that humans do. I wouldn't quite say India is quite 3rd world either, yet cows have free reign. Of course we wouldn't want that here now would we?

Cows != dogs.
Cows are livestock raised to be eaten.
More over, in an unrelated point, India is most DEFININITELY a "third world" nation / LDC. Hinduism is just silly in different ways than our familiar yet still equally ridiculous Judeo-Christian dogmas leading to the cow situation.

Never said it was removed. Said that we are influenced by those not of us, hence the example of the heated debate of removing In God We Trust from money.

There's no Atheists in America? Interesting.
I'm going to let you in on a big secret. Atheism is not an import.

AND of course what was removed was the Under God in the pledge, but of course I'm not saying that its only outside influences that led to that, but outside influences did play a role in it.

This was NEVER EVER removed and I am FLABBERGASTED that you are so stupid that you think it was officially removed by the Congress.



Also, half of these points aren't even pertinent to the discussion.

Hypothetically, if the rest of the world went around playing baseball with kittens and turning dogs into sausage it still wouldn't make it morally acceptable.

The notion of Cultural Relativism and that just because something is practiced in another culture you have no right to pass judgement on it and it is acceptable in that culture was abandoned by the mainstream a LONG time ago when it was determined that this more or less condones the most basic heinous moral offenses.

I've also sure as hell never heard before that because something heinous and despicable is practiced in another country that the activity is acceptable in our nation by default.


My closing point is that apparently you cannot read because I have stated previously that

THE DOG HAS NO MORE RIGHT TO ANYTHING THAN THE MAN, BUT IF THE MAN DOES SOMETHING ABOMINABLE AND VIOLATES A JUST LAW YOU SHOULD BE PROSECUTED.

Good night.

[Jaimecbr900]

The12lber is probably one of the first newbs that I've seen has an intelligent head on his shoulders in a long long time. Major props. :goodjob:

Just a piece of advice though.....this guy who has the assbackwards thought process that tells him that WE, America, should "evolve" to keep up with the rest of 3rd world civilizations will NEVER get the very basic concepts that you are trying to portray. He obviously needs to look up the word "evolve" in the dictionary before using it again. He may have thought it sounded neat to type, because comprehension is obviously eluded him. So until he learns half of what he's typing is garbage, it is futile to argue with him. :goodjob:

[sshonda2004]

since we all make mistakes in life, i guess we are all pieces of ****, huh. if your not god you have no right to be calling anyone a piece of ****.
no,but i love showing everybody how much of a piece of **** he is:goodjob:

[sshonda2004]

your very intelligent i can see, but having grew up in the country for parts of my life, i can honestly say dog fighting is a considered sport, you wouldnt believe how popular it is.
Here we go again with the ignorant and polar opposite comparison of what Michael Vick did to dogs and "deer hunting".


Yall are really retarded if you think that hunters walk up to deer, deer that have been DOMESTICATED and are used to YOU feeding them and YOU taking care of them, and strap electrodes up to them to shock them to death or maybe pick them up and body slam them or maybe shoot them in the head only to bury them in a shallow hole or maybe let it fight another deer until it bleeds to death. I know a ton of hunters that do that.....:rolleyes: Whatever. Yall are really retarded. Quit comparing apples to 747's, it's NOT a comparison.

It really would be a lot simpler if Vick wasn't a celebrity. He would have been found guilty, like all the other people ever prosecuted for dog fighting, and he'd been sentenced. The end. Now, insert the race card and ignorance like it's being shown in this very thread and you have a circus. People trying to justify his actions by saying it's a "sport" or the dog's are bred for that "purpose".....people trying to justify his actions by using the race card.....supporters trying to justify it by saying they're only going after him because he has money.....idiots standing up on LIVE National TV to support a man that has not only disgraced himself, but also his own entire race.

Bottomline is really simple:

-Is dog fighting a crime or not? Yes.
-Did Vick own dogs that were fought? Yes.
-Did Vick fight dogs? Yes.
-Did Vick bet on dog fights? Yes.
-Did Vick finance dog fights? Yes.
-Did Vick own the property where this took place? Yes.
-Did Vick KNOW about it? Yes.
-Did Vick KILL dogs by electrocuting, shooting, and slamming them? Yes.
-Did Vick have a lot to lose? Yes.
-Was he a total idiot in remotely involving himself with any of this? Yes.
-Did Vick not have millions upon millions of dollars at stake? Yes.
-Did Vick put himself in a situation to lose millions of dollars, over dogs? Yes.
-Is Vick an adult? Yes.
-Did Vick plead guilty? Yes.


What is so unclear about this? You either support Vick or you don't. There is no gray area. It's very black and white. If you support him, then you support the actions that got him soon to be a convicted felon. You don't have to hate the guy. You don't have to wish him harm. You also don't have to hide behind color either. He either screwed up or he didn't. It's really that simple. It has nothing to do with color and everything to do with human decency and common sense. All of those that support him and what he did lack both.

[The12lber]

since we all make mistakes in life, i guess we are all pieces of ****, huh. if your not god you have no right to be calling anyone a piece of ****.

I've made lots of mistakes in my life but they're not something I repeated over a 6 year period.

[The12lber]

your very intelligent i can see, but having grew up in the country for parts of my life, i can honestly say dog fighting is a considered sport, you wouldnt believe how popular it is.

And in Mormons living in Nevada regularly marry multiple teenage girls.

[OneSlow5pt0]

I've made lots of mistakes in my life but they're not something I repeated over a 6 year period.

yea,iv made mistakes.......but beating dogs to death is not a mistake

[Jaimecbr900]

your very intelligent i can see, but having grew up in the country for parts of my life, i can honestly say dog fighting is a considered sport, you wouldnt believe how popular it is.

Thank you, but I still don't understand how any of this could be remotely considered a "sport" except by people who are derranged and Barbarian.

I would challenge anyone who thinks this is a "sport" to show how it fits into the definition of sport. There is no sanctioning body, there are no rules, there are not safety nets, no precautions, no oversight.....it's total and brutal anarchy. What exactly is "sporting" about throwing two dogs into a make shift "ring" where they tear each other's flesh out until one, if not both, are left maimed and have to be killed??? Are we not in the 21st century? Don't we think that what the Romans called a "sport" centuries ago was nothing more than being brutal to it's slaves for their sick enjoyment??? How's this any different than putting a man in the middle of an arena to "defend" himself against a lion, while we all cheer on and bet on IF he will survive???? It's not.

Animals have about as much choice at being here than we do at choosing our parents. They just don't. We can either torture and maim them for our sick pleasure, or we can learn to co-exist with them. You don't have to be a tree hugging hairy legged bra burning woman about it. You can however be a decent human being and not be apathetic when you see someone torturing another animal, like everyone that is supporting and justifying Vick's (and anyone else who does this type of thing) actions.

It's wrong folks. Just wrong. No excuses, no conditions, just wrong. You can either agree or disagree. It really is that black and white. Just like there is no gray area when it comes to child cruelty or molestation or elderly abuse or incest or anything else that is clear cut. I don't understand how anyone with any common sense would think that any of these things could ever happen and there be justification for it like it's "ok". IT'S NOT "OK". It never is and it never should be.

[1000cckiller]

you are a sick ****, please die soon without infecting another generation.

and we, as americans, are evolving, thats why dont allow barbaric and cruel practices to take place. Its the 3rd world countries that allow things like that, not us.so what Bush has done isnt , barbaric or cruel.

[Jaimecbr900]

so what Bush has done isnt , barbaric or cruel.

Come on, that's about as good a comeback as comparing dog fighting to hunting. ;)

[1000cckiller]

Come on, that's about as good a comeback as comparing dog fighting to hunting. ;)Jamie you know some of the **** Bush has done, has been foul. On the real **** if someone payed me enough I would kill that mofo. Bush has been full of **** since the beginning. Oh... Jamie go look and read the link I posted. It is in the whoreslounge.

[ISAtlanta300]

Its only in these parts of the world that we hold dogs up so highly. Of course the rest of the Eurpeans have dogs, but none of them commonly put them up on a pedestal or even consider them an extension of the family.


You must be kidding, right???? Ever been to Holland? they have PET AMBULANCES........

[ISAtlanta300]

Thank you, but I still don't understand how any of this could be remotely considered a "sport" except by people who are derranged and Barbarian.

I would challenge anyone who thinks this is a "sport" to show how it fits into the definition of sport. There is no sanctioning body, there are no rules, there are not safety nets, no precautions, no oversight.....it's total and brutal anarchy. What exactly is "sporting" about throwing two dogs into a make shift "ring" where they tear each other's flesh out until one, if not both, are left maimed and have to be killed??? Are we not in the 21st century? Don't we think that what the Romans called a "sport" centuries ago was nothing more than being brutal to it's slaves for their sick enjoyment??? How's this any different than putting a man in the middle of an arena to "defend" himself against a lion, while we all cheer on and bet on IF he will survive???? It's not.

Animals have about as much choice at being here than we do at choosing our parents. They just don't. We can either torture and maim them for our sick pleasure, or we can learn to co-exist with them. You don't have to be a tree hugging hairy legged bra burning woman about it. You can however be a decent human being and not be apathetic when you see someone torturing another animal, like everyone that is supporting and justifying Vick's (and anyone else who does this type of thing) actions.

It's wrong folks. Just wrong. No excuses, no conditions, just wrong. You can either agree or disagree. It really is that black and white. Just like there is no gray area when it comes to child cruelty or molestation or elderly abuse or incest or anything else that is clear cut. I don't understand how anyone with any common sense would think that any of these things could ever happen and there be justification for it like it's "ok". IT'S NOT "OK". It never is and it never should be.


Thank you for posting that....that is EXACTLY what was needed to convey the point accross. It's NOT that Dogs are put above man, or have better laws than men etc. It's about being a DECENT human being and learning to Co-EXIST..with a breathing, living being....

[The12lber]

Jamie you know some of the **** Bush has done, has been foul. On the real **** if someone payed me enough I would kill that mofo. Bush has been full of **** since the beginning. Oh... Jamie go look and read the link I posted. It is in the whoreslounge.
Unfortunately Bush's perceived criminality really only touches on the most transparent of his crimes.

[BanginJimmy]

exactly what crime has Bush committed?

and no, being an idiot isnt a crime or alot of the people on this forum would be criminals also.

Before you get **** confused, I am not a Bush supporter. He is an idiot, and has absolutely no clue what he is doing. On the other hand, I'm sure as hell glad Kerry didnt win the election. We would be even more ****ed with that coward in office than Bush.

[The12lber]

exactly what crime has Bush committed?

and no, being an idiot isnt a crime or alot of the people on this forum would be criminals also.

Before you get **** confused, I am not a Bush supporter. He is an idiot, and has absolutely no clue what he is doing. On the other hand, I'm sure as hell glad Kerry didnt win the election. We would be even more ****ed with that coward in office than Bush.

First off, both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are illegal under our constitution as they were never declared.

The war in Iraq is illegal under international law.

He intentionally deceived the public about Saddam Hussein's possession of NBCs. All evidence put forth by real intelligence analysts in the CIA pointed towards the fact the he had none. Bush also failed to mention that Saddam Hussein offered to go into exile a month before the war.

He's functionally destroyed habeas corpus.

Signed an executive order that uses intentionally abiguous language that allows war protestors to be arrested.

Displayed at the very least criminal negligence in, at the best, not knowing the activities of The Army/Blackwater in the field, at the worst condoning or promoting these actions. A paper that came out of the White House a few years ago promoting interrogation by any means necessary leads to me to believe the later.

I'm not going to go on, if you don't think Bush and his top tier administration personnel are criminals you haven't brushed up on your reading in the last 6 years.

What I said barely touches on everything that's occurred under Bush since what I like to call the universal-stupidifier that is 9/11/01.

What he's done varies from unconstitutional, illegal domestically and abroad, violating basic human dignities and rights to life or all simultaneously.

He's basically used 9/11 as an excuse to do all this and so far he's gotten away with this. The "War on Terror" is a sham to increase government's powers (only one person has been convicted of terrorist-type activities since 9/11).

Also, although it is not a crime to be this incompetent (it should be) our Government is now running a massive deficit instead of a surplus as a direct result of the policies pushed by George Bush (unfortunately our congress is stupid too because they gave the **** a majority vote).

The only way things in this country could become substantially worse now is if Rudy and Clinton were elected to President/Vice president on the same ticket. The book 1984 is actually being used as a model to develop policies by those two. True story

[SL65AMG]

what a ****ing moron..... he aparently wasnt happy with all of the pus$y he could ever imagine and an assssss load of money. ****ing idiot

[BanginJimmy]

The intelliganece used when we went into Iraq was the same intelligence used by 10 or so other countries. SO i guess it wasnt that bad.

The war in Iraq is only illegal because the security council of the UN said they didnt support it. There are plenty of legalities to go with it though. Such as the fact that Iraq was in violation of several security council mandates.

Blackwater is a private security firm. The US Government has no control over them. Saying Buch should be responsible for them is like locking you up because you didnt know your 2nd cousin robbed someone. As far as the Army goes, there are MANY levels of command before Bush gets into the picture, so unless its something that took place on at least a divisional scale, saying Bush would know about it is retarded.

Dont know anything about the paper you are talking about, but honestly, I dont care. I truely believe that fear is a weapon in war. And even more so in a war of this type.

BTW, how did this get runed over to politics? I know the Bush haters will find any excuse to whine about him, why did it come up here?

[The12lber]

The intelliganece used when we went into Iraq was the same intelligence used by 10 or so other countries. SO i guess it wasnt that bad.

The war in Iraq is only illegal because the security council of the UN said they didnt support it. There are plenty of legalities to go with it though. Such as the fact that Iraq was in violation of several security council mandates.

Blackwater is a private security firm. The US Government has no control over them. Saying Buch should be responsible for them is like locking you up because you didnt know your 2nd cousin robbed someone. As far as the Army goes, there are MANY levels of command before Bush gets into the picture, so unless its something that took place on at least a divisional scale, saying Bush would know about it is retarded.

Dont know anything about the paper you are talking about, but honestly, I dont care. I truely believe that fear is a weapon in war. And even more so in a war of this type.

BTW, how did this get runed over to politics? I know the Bush haters will find any excuse to whine about him, why did it come up here?

The intelligence wasn't bad, it was ignored so we could use the WMD excuse to invade anyways.

Also, yes, the government does have responsibility for Blackwater. Blackwater is there on Government contract (outsourced war), the government has a responsibility to make sure its not wantonly killing civilians and the like. These kind of incidents aren't isolated or new.

I would think when news goes on air that snipers are killing civilians and planting bomb making materials on them and that soldiers are raping teenage girls and then killing their families the president would take a personal interest in clearing the situation. He's never even acknowleged these events took place and they are still taking place. But they've been well documented.

I'm not really sure what a "war of this type" is, if you mean an unnecessary invasion of a random middle eastern country to deny Chinese oil contracts then I'm sure fear still creates more regional instability.

I also find it interesting that you don't address anything else I said because those are clearly uncontestable and frankly I'm not sure why you're contesting this either.

The notion that the in field actions of the military or a mercenary group on the government's pay roll are beyond the scrutiny of the president or the government in general is ridiculous.

[sshonda2004]

damn right i hear you.
The intelligence wasn't bad, it was ignored so we could use the WMD excuse to invade anyways.

Also, yes, the government does have responsibility for Blackwater. Blackwater is there on Government contract (outsourced war), the government has a responsibility to make sure its not wantonly killing civilians and the like. These kind of incidents aren't isolated or new.

I would think when news goes on air that snipers are killing civilians and planting bomb making materials on them and that soldiers are raping teenage girls and then killing their families the president would take a personal interest in clearing the situation. He's never even acknowleged these events took place and they are still taking place. But they've been well documented.

I'm not really sure what a "war of this type" is, if you mean an unnecessary invasion of a random middle eastern country to deny Chinese oil contracts then I'm sure fear still creates more regional instability.

I also find it interesting that you don't address anything else I said because those are clearly uncontestable and frankly I'm not sure why you're contesting this either.

The notion that the in field actions of the military or a mercenary group on the government's pay roll are beyond the scrutiny of the president or the government in general is ridiculous.

[BanginJimmy]

now I see where you are going.

Its all about Bush stealing oil again. People really need to get over that, because theres absolutely no truth to it. It just fits nice a pretty with your conspiracy theory.

exactly what intelligence was ignored? I know I havent seen any intelligence reports, and I am 100% sure you havent either. You cant believe what you see on CNN. Its just another biased media outlet that tells half truths, or uses unconfirmed rumors to make a story.

If you are talking aboutt he blackwater thing, I seriously doubt they planted bombmaking materials on them. And I know you have no experience with anything military except maybe Rainbow 6 or something similar, so I will take it easy on you.

This type of war is one in which you are fighting an untrained force of guerrillas. Its not a set piece type of war like WWII. No clear lines, enemy 'soldiers' dont wear uniforms and the whole concept of police action dont lend itself towards a traditional war. Which Chinese Oil contracts did we deny? As far as I know, China still gets a majority of oil from the middle east. Now if you mean deny China from going against sanctions handed down by the UN, then yes, we did do that and were perfectly within the right of the UN to do so. Of course China is going to vote against a conflict with someone thats buying weapons from them and selling them oil at discounted prices.

As far as what our people over there are doing wrong. Thats between them and the officers appointed over them. I just wish the media would get the hell out fo it. They are doing nothing but supporting the enemy. Just like you.

[Jaimecbr900]

First off, both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are illegal under our constitution as they were never declared.

Very wrong information.

First: The "war" in Afghanistan is not against Afghanistan itself per se. It is against the harboring and helping of TERRORIST. It was in fact DECLARED on Sept of 2001 as part of a joint resolution that also involved IRAQ. It was further VOTED on by CONGRESS which resulted in a 98-0 vote in Senate and 420-1 in the House. So therefore, it was indeed not only declared, but also VOTED on AND overwhelmingly PASSED before the first bomb or soldier was EVER in IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN (aside from special forces;) ).


The war in Iraq is illegal under international law.

So if the U.N. doesn't allow you to wipe your butt, you'll walk around with a dirty backside??? Is that what you mean by "international law"?


He intentionally deceived the public about Saddam Hussein's possession of NBCs. All evidence put forth by real intelligence analysts in the CIA pointed towards the fact the he had none. Bush also failed to mention that Saddam Hussein offered to go into exile a month before the war.

You mean "evidence" as in people trying to CYA NOW.......???? Yep, that's about as reliable as their poor intelligence was then.


He's functionally destroyed habeas corpus.

Signed an executive order that uses intentionally abiguous language that allows war protestors to be arrested.

You need to read that again, because you obviously glossed over the part that only allows the President the ommission of Habeas Corpus towards ILLEGAL ALIENS (i.e. NOT U.S. Citizens) that are deamed "enemy combatants" during a time of WAR. This does NOT apply to anyone else.

Personally I feel that we should NOT afford NON-U.S. CITIZENS the same rights and privilages as U.S. CITIZENS under ANY circumstance(s).....but that's just me. ;)

BTW, did you know that Abe Lilcoln also did the exact same thing during the Civil war? Look it up. So Bush was NOT the first President to envoke this power, which BTW is and has ALWAYS been granted by the U.S. Constitution to be used during the time of WAR or to maintain PUBLIC SAFETY. I guess planes flying into building full of INNOCENT and NON-MILITARY PERSONNEL is not really a PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE to some, but I guess it should be. ;)




I have a dentist appt. now, but I'll be happy to come back to finish this a little later. ;)

Carry on.

[nreggie454]

I like how the Vick supporters brought up a completely different discussion to defend him.

Bush has nothing to do with Vick or dog fighting. Pointing the finger at somebody else does nothing to change what Vick did, or how moral his actions were.

I am not supporting or bashing Bush at all. That is for another thread. On the other hand, Vick is a complete ****ing moron, and I hope he goes to prison and never sets foot on a football field ever again.

[sshonda2004]

yes vick was wrong about being involved in that sport, but that doesnt give people the right to take away his means of earning a living.

[Jaimecbr900]

yes vick was wrong about being involved in that sport, but that doesnt give people the right to take away his means of earning a living.

See, you guys don't understand something......

His J-O-B was NOT EVER "his" to be taken "away" from him. The J-O-B belongs to the FALCONS forever. It's a position. Nobody has chopped off Vick's legs. The league only suspended him, not ban him. Just like they do all the time for dumbasses getting in shootouts at night clubs and taking steroids. He has wayyyy bigger fish to fry right now than if he can throw a football for ANY team. He has FELONY issues to deal with right now.

BTW, the only person that made Vick do anything is Vick. Don't blame anyone else for what a dumb grown man does.

[sshonda2004]

but what im saying is that you cant take away his right to play football, rather its for the falcons or any other team. its his occupation being a football player. it certainly wouldnt be right if somebody stripped you of your meens to make money in your career you know, you still have to live and provide for you and the family. just like they let that hockey player continue to play and earn money even though he killed a HUMAN BEING just cause he wanted to show out in his ferrari.
See, you guys don't understand something......

His J-O-B was NOT EVER "his" to be taken "away" from him. The J-O-B belongs to the FALCONS forever. It's a position. Nobody has chopped off Vick's legs. The league only suspended him, not ban him. Just like they do all the time for dumbasses getting in shootouts at night clubs and taking steroids. He has wayyyy bigger fish to fry right now than if he can throw a football for ANY team. He has FELONY issues to deal with right now.

BTW, the only person that made Vick do anything is Vick. Don't blame anyone else for what a dumb grown man does.

[The12lber]

Very wrong information.

First: The "war" in Afghanistan is not against Afghanistan itself per se. It is against the harboring and helping of TERRORIST. It was in fact DECLARED on Sept of 2001 as part of a joint resolution that also involved IRAQ. It was further VOTED on by CONGRESS which resulted in a 98-0 vote in Senate and 420-1 in the House. So therefore, it was indeed not only declared, but also VOTED on AND overwhelmingly PASSED before the first bomb or soldier was EVER in IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN (aside from special forces;) ).

That actually wasn't a declaration of war, sorry. Also, I never brought up anything about Afghanistan other than that there was a war there, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to clarify that.

The fact that it was passed by such an overwhelming majority only proves the stupifying effect of 9/11.


So if the U.N. doesn't allow you to wipe your butt, you'll walk around with a dirty backside??? Is that what you mean by "international law"?

International law is international law and we didn't have a good reason to fly in the face of it then or now.

Clearly, because we're America we're always right and everyone else always has some corrupt evil intent when they disagree with us.


You mean "evidence" as in people trying to CYA NOW.......???? Yep, that's about as reliable as their poor intelligence was then.

I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. If you're trying to say that we only know in hindsight that he wasn't a threat, you're wrong, you need to do your research.

You need to read that again, because you obviously glossed over the part that only allows the President the ommission of Habeas Corpus towards ILLEGAL ALIENS (i.e. NOT U.S. Citizens) that are deamed "enemy combatants" during a time of WAR. This does NOT apply to anyone else.

The problem is that lots of people who aren't "enemy combatants" are picked up as such and because he feels that people who aren't citizens clearly don't deserve the rights we hold so dear it will never be proven they are not.

Personally I feel that we should NOT afford NON-U.S. CITIZENS the same rights and privilages as U.S. CITIZENS under ANY circumstance(s).....but that's just me. ;)

I agree, we should make those foreign dogs pay for not being born as free as us. Secret European prisons and torture by proxy is as American as it gets.

BTW, did you know that Abe Lilcoln also did the exact same thing during the Civil war? Look it up. So Bush was NOT the first President to envoke this power, which BTW is and has ALWAYS been granted by the U.S. Constitution to be used during the time of WAR or to maintain PUBLIC SAFETY. I guess planes flying into building full of INNOCENT and NON-MILITARY PERSONNEL is not really a PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE to some, but I guess it should be. ;)

And because we've got a statue of Abraham Lincoln in DC anything he did is acceptable now.

Clearly you've been drinking a lot of 9/11 to think that the war in Iraq is about terrorism or that there is actually a "war on terror" or that I don't think its a public safety issue because I take issue with our government's policies.

I have a dentist appt. now, but I'll be happy to come back to finish this a little later. ;)

Carry on.

Really, you didn't address anything I said. Aside from erroneously stating that we declared war, which we did not, all you really did was say that all of those offenses are acceptable and insinuate that because I'm a critic of our current policies that I don't feel like our national security is important.

If you really want to live in a country who's primary exports are fear and suffering then continue to vote in the status quo.

[Jaimecbr900]

but what im saying is that you cant take away his right to play football, rather its for the falcons or any other team. its his occupation being a football player. it certainly wouldnt be right if somebody stripped you of your meens to make money in your career you know, you still have to live and provide for you and the family. just like they let that hockey player continue to play and earn money even though he killed a HUMAN BEING just cause he wanted to show out in his ferrari.

OMG, get off the one white player all of you can think of to compare to Vick.....it's not the same at all. One was killed as an car accident. Same as the millions of car ACCIDENTS that happen every day. The other maliciously and PURPOSELY killed dogs for no other reason than they are worthless to him. There is a big difference.

Secondly, like I explained before....the J-O-B "belongs" to the employer NOT the employee. Is that difficult to comprehend? It's the fact. So, if the Falcons or anyone else doesn't want to EMPLOY Vick, it is absolutely 100% their perrogative. I'm sure someone somewhere will give Vick a second chance. It is HIS fault that it may not be for as many millions as before. HE caused his problems, HE will reap those rewards.

[nreggie454]

but what im saying is that you cant take away his right to play football, rather its for the falcons or any other team. its his occupation being a football player. it certainly wouldnt be right if somebody stripped you of your meens to make money in your career you know, you still have to live and provide for you and the family. just like they let that hockey player continue to play and earn money even though he killed a HUMAN BEING just cause he wanted to show out in his ferrari.

Before he got into his Ferrari, did the hockey player conscientiously decide that he was going to kill his friend? Did the hockey player invest money in planning his friend's death so that he and his other friends could bet on it and get enjoyment out of it? Did the hockey player profit off of his friend's death?

No.

Before Michael Vick went to his "other house in Virginia," do you think he conscientiously decided to kill a pit bull? Do you think he conscientiously decided to kill the other 4 or 5 he personally did himself? Do you think he had no idea what his own money was going to? Did all of his other accomplices agree to testify against him, proving his knowing consent of the actions that went on there?

Yes.

Did Michael Vick know that what he was doing was wrong?

Yes.

Did Michael Vick know that he could lose his job if he got convicted of a felony?

Probably.

Did Michael Vick smoke marijuana and subsequently fail a drug test when he was informed that he would be tested?

Yes.

Is Michael Vick a blameless victim whose job was taken away by "the Man" for no reason?

HELL NO

[1000cckiller]

yes vick was wrong about being involved in that sport, but that doesnt give people the right to take away his means of earning a living.x2 troof

[1000cckiller]

See, you guys don't understand something......

His J-O-B was NOT EVER "his" to be taken "away" from him. The J-O-B belongs to the FALCONS forever. It's a position. Nobody has chopped off Vick's legs. The league only suspended him, not ban him. Just like they do all the time for dumbasses getting in shootouts at night clubs and taking steroids. He has wayyyy bigger fish to fry right now than if he can throw a football for ANY team. He has FELONY issues to deal with right now.

BTW, the only person that made Vick do anything is Vick. Don't blame anyone else for what a dumb grown man does.Jamie, a white guy was busted for dog fighting 2 months ago, in a north georgia county. He got 3 months jail and 2yrs probation. So where is the fairness in that.

[1000cckiller]

Before he got into his Ferrari, did the hockey player conscientiously decide that he was going to kill his friend? Did the hockey player invest money in planning his friend's death so that he and his other friends could bet on it and get enjoyment out of it? Did the hockey player profit off of his friend's death?

No.

Before Michael Vick went to his "other house in Virginia," do you think he conscientiously decided to kill a pit bull? Do you think he conscientiously decided to kill the other 4 or 5 he personally did himself? Do you think he had no idea what his own money was going to? Did all of his other accomplices agree to testify against him, proving his knowing consent of the actions that went on there?

Yes.

Did Michael Vick know that what he was doing was wrong?

Yes.

Did Michael Vick know that he could lose his job if he got convicted of a felony?

Probably.

Did Michael Vick smoke marijuana and subsequently fail a drug test when he was informed that he would be tested?

Yes.

Is Michael Vick a blameless victim whose job was taken away by "the Man" for no reason?

HELL NOWtf are you talking about. He was being reckless, he should have served time. He was doing stupid **** and killed someone.

[nreggie454]

Wtf are you talking about. He was being reckless, he should have served time. He was doing stupid **** and killed someone.

I know his actions were reckless and stupid, but they at least were not intentional. Michael Vick's actions were 100% intentional (and repeated!). Even though he might have gotten off too easy, I can bet the hockey player feels true remorse for his actions. It is just my opinion, but something tells me Vick probably only feels bad about losing endorsements and ****ing his career. There is a difference there.

I don't know about you, but if I want to keep a high paying job, I wouldn't intentionally participate in felonies. That is just stupid. In addition, I wouldn't do drugs especially if I knew I was gonna get tested for them. Nobody took Vick's "right" to play football. He ****ed that one up all by himself.

[Jaimecbr900]

Jamie, a white guy was busted for dog fighting 2 months ago, in a north georgia county. He got 3 months jail and 2yrs probation. So where is the fairness in that.

#1. Vick hasn't been sentenced to anything yet, right? So why are you assuming he'll get anymore or less than your example?

#2. If "white guy in N. GA" was EMPLOYED by the Falcons and had a gazillion CLAUSES IN HIS CONTRACT THAT PROHIBIT HIM GETTING CHARGED, ARRESTED, AND BASICALLY SHAMING THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION, then he too would be out of a job.

#3. The Falcons didn't castrate Michael Vick. They haven't even released him yet. Right now he's no worse off than any other player that tears an ACL in pre-season, right? He's just doing it without getting the 15.5 million dollars a month is all.....:rolleyes:

#4. None of you have obviously seen a true real life NFL contract obviously. I haven't seen the entire thing, but I have in fact seen a Falcon's player's partial contract. It very clearly specifies what that player literally can and can not do in order to collect their salary and remain on the team. If ANY of those clauses are breached, the team can do lots of things from fines to full on release and even (which is what the Falcons are doing now) request for monies they paid IN ADVANCE to be returned. Many many players lose their contracts and salaries when they have off season problems and even accidents. I remember a football player a few years back that got into a motorcycle accident and broke his leg. He lost his contract because it stipulated he couldn't ride dirt bikes at all. Yes, it can get that detailed.

So trust me when I tell you that Vick screwed himself more than he did anyone else. The Falcons are protected by a contract. Vick is now seeing the other side of contract law. When he TOOK the 22 million dollar bonus (which he had not earned yet) he wasn't complaining, right? ;)

[sshonda2004]

i heard that the falcons may not even be able to get alot of money if not all of it that they asking for because some new rule about roster bonuses stating that a team cant take back what a player has earned. im not to sure on the specifics of this new clause but they break it down on espn.com

[sshonda2004]

your crazy he killed a human being, who had a family that cared about him, i dont agree with dog fighting, but a dog really doesnt give a **** about its owner as much as people may think.
I know his actions were reckless and stupid, but they at least were not intentional. Michael Vick's actions were 100% intentional (and repeated!). Even though he might have gotten off too easy, I can bet the hockey player feels true remorse for his actions. It is just my opinion, but something tells me Vick probably only feels bad about losing endorsements and ****ing his career. There is a difference there.

I don't know about you, but if I want to keep a high paying job, I wouldn't intentionally participate in felonies. That is just stupid. In addition, I wouldn't do drugs especially if I knew I was gonna get tested for them. Nobody took Vick's "right" to play football. He ****ed that one up all by himself.

[Jaimecbr900]

i heard that the falcons may not even be able to get alot of money if not all of it that they asking for because some new rule about roster bonuses stating that a team cant take back what a player has earned. im not to sure on the specifics of this new clause but they break it down on espn.com

That may be possible, but anything is possible. I'm sure the Falcons have a battery of lawyers that are obviously holding on to something or some clause in his contract to even try to get that money back.

I think that if it's a bonus or advance that the team can ask for it back in a situation like this. They KNOW he's not going to be back anytime soon and I think that sign on bonuses or an advance for a player that ends up not playing at all (I would guess it specifies the parameters in the contract) could be asked for that money back.

We'll find out soon enough. I think I read somewhere that the Falcons have already filed the paperwork to go to arbitration over it.

[Jaimecbr900]

but a dog really doesnt give a **** about its owner as much as people may think.

How do you KNOW that? You the dog whisperer? :thinking:

I think you missed his point all together, but I'll let him reply to you himself.

[sshonda2004]

get my point, it is very much the same, dogs were killed, a human was killed, seeing that a great bit of society worships the creation(dog) instead of the creator(god) their really isnt much of a difference, just ask some of the animal worshippers.
OMG, get off the one white player all of you can think of to compare to Vick.....it's not the same at all. One was killed as an car accident. Same as the millions of car ACCIDENTS that happen every day. The other maliciously and PURPOSELY killed dogs for no other reason than they are worthless to him. There is a big difference.

Secondly, like I explained before....the J-O-B "belongs" to the employer NOT the employee. Is that difficult to comprehend? It's the fact. So, if the Falcons or anyone else doesn't want to EMPLOY Vick, it is absolutely 100% their perrogative. I'm sure someone somewhere will give Vick a second chance. It is HIS fault that it may not be for as many millions as before. HE caused his problems, HE will reap those rewards.

[The12lber]

get my point, it is very much the same, dogs were killed, a human was killed, seeing that a great bit of society worships the creation(dog) instead of the creator(god) their really isnt much of a difference, just ask some of the animal worshippers.

Our creator is an incorporeal flying spaghetti monster. Prove me wrong.

[Jaimecbr900]

get my point, it is very much the same, dogs were killed, a human was killed, seeing that a great bit of society worships the creation(dog) instead of the creator(god) their really isnt much of a difference, just ask some of the animal worshippers.

Dude, you're like stuck on one thing and don't get the point of any post at all.

Noone is saying that killing a dog is equal to, worse than, same as, or any less than a human. NOONE is contesting or saying that HUMAN LIFE is at the top of the food chain. Get that? Probably not, because you're so stuck on comparing dogs and deer......car accidents to purposeful acts.....that it's obvious you have a one-way thought process.

I'll put it in terms you should be able to get your hands around a little easier.

-What Vick did was NOT an accident, right? So how can you compare it to a car accident? You can't.
-What Vick did happened once or multiple times? So how can you compare it to something that happened ONCE? You can't.
-What Vick pleaded guilty to, was that a felony dog fighting and animal cruelty or MURDER? So how can you compare it to INVOLUNTARY manslaugher? You can't.

There is no comparison. There are no similiraties, except both are athletes. Nothing else compares. If you find where a WHITE, multi-millionaire, multi-gazillionaire endorsed, on TV every Sunday ATHLETE got caught fighting HIS OWN dogs and BETTING on them and KILLING them.....and they got off with a slap on the wrist and got to keep their job.......THEN you'd have something to whine and ***** about. Until then, there is nothing to compare it, so stop trying to do it. Some poor old white guy from backwoods GA can NOT EVER compare to lime light Michael Vick when it comes to this because Vick has a lot more to lose than backwoods white boy does, so that makes him doubly stupid for doing what he did to begin with.

Please get it through your thick skull that people aren't condemning Vick for being BLACK or out jealousy or because they want to take his career away. They are condemning him because he is very stupid and ignorant animal abuser that got himself into the mess he's in now. Stupidity and ignorance knows no colors, so stop trying to make it into something it's not. He had the millions to lose, so he should of acted accordingly.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Give ME half of what he was making and I'd become a hermit. Screw going out, screw womanizing, screw smoking weed for fun, screw racing cars, screw even spitting on the sidewalk. I'd vacation in Siberia. I'd have all my meals at home. Save and invest my money. Retire in 10 years. THEN I could do all the BS I'd want, still be in my 30's, STILL have a bizillion dollars in the bank, and never have to work another day in my life. He's an absolute fool for throwing it all away over something so stupid as a dog fight. It aint even something he could've gotten pleasure from anyway. It's just barbaric. Atleast Coby got some trim out of it. Atleast OJ got his hands dirty. Vick just watched dogs kill themselves in a ring only to finish them off with his hands if the ring didn't do it. What's the pleasure side of that again???? :thinking: :rolleyes:

[1000cckiller]

Jamie, Vick may be wrong but he has earned that money. Falcons never sold a stadium out for 5yrs straight, until Vick got there. Hell they had a hard time ever selling or filling the Dome up until, Vick got there.

[Nomad!]

Falcons never sold a stadium out for 5yrs straight, until Vick got there. Hell they had a hard time ever selling or filling the Dome up until, Vick got there.
I remember when the WWF would have a larger crowd in the Dome than the Falcons. The acquisition of Vick did fill the seats but, his recklessness has him facing some pretty serious consequences.

[Jaimecbr900]

Jamie, Vick may be wrong but he has earned that money. Falcons never sold a stadium out for 5yrs straight, until Vick got there. Hell they had a hard time ever selling or filling the Dome up until, Vick got there.

Even using your logic he didn't "earn" anything.

If you are saying that the Falcons didn't sell out the stadium before he go here, that means that HE is the draw, right? They sold out games WHEN he was here, right? They negotiated his contract BASED on that premise, right? Now that he's gone, the Falcons won't see the same revenue they bargained for AND more importantly PAID Vick for. So how does he deserve that money now that he won't be reason people pay to see the game???

Let me give you another example.

I steal you from the company you work for now to come work for me because you will make me a bunch of money over some time. To get you to sign a multi-year LONG term contract with me to lock you in to stay with me and noone else, I give you a $50,000 "bonus"/"incentive"/"sign-on" whatever you want to call it. THAT money is NOT "earned" at all, YET. It is given as an incentive to lure you to stay with me. You haven't sold the first thing YET. You haven't produced or made me any money YET. You then turn around and quit 6 mos after you start. Do you think you've "earned" that money? Do you think I'm entitled to it back since YOU didn't live up to your end of the bargain? Now compound that by CONTRACTUAL agreements and you begin to see the position the Falcons are taking that basically says to Vick, "you screwed us bad, now give me the money I advanced you...." This wasn't a Christmas bonus given to you for doing a good job all year. This wasn't an "atta boy, thanks for taking us to the Super Bowl last year". This was money given because the Falcons THOUGHT they would have Vick for many years drawing big crowds all those years. Big difference.

[sshonda2004]

theres really know long explanation needed, everyone on their rigth mind knows that the dome started selling out since vick became the starter...period nuff said.

[nreggie454]

theres really know long explanation needed, everyone on their rigth mind knows that the dome started selling out since vick became the starter...period nuff said.

That doesn't give him a right to play football though. That also doesn't entitle him to money he hasn't rightfully earned.

Everyone in their right mind also knows that Vick can only look in the mirror when he wants to blame somebody for ruining his career. Nobody took anything from him.

[1000cckiller]

That doesn't give him a right to play football though. That also doesn't entitle him to money he hasn't rightfully earned.

Everyone in their right mind also knows that Vick can only look in the mirror when he wants to blame somebody for ruining his career. Nobody took anything from him.How did he not rightfully earn it. The dome isnt even half way filled at home games now. So he earned it. For him doing something stupid, that was his fault and he has to serve his time. But give back the money no.

[nreggie454]

I was talking about the 22 mil signing bonus/advance or whatever. He was paid that to ensure he would keep playing there and keep filling the stands, not to get arrested and suspended from the NFL so he can't fill the stands.

[BanginJimmy]

his bonuses should be prorated and paid back to the Falcons. He did earn a portion of it, but not all of it.

[sshonda2004]

true, that would seem fair, but from what ive been reading on espn.com I think that the falcons will not be able to recover as much as they want because he has earned so much of the bonus given to him already.
his bonuses should be prorated and paid back to the Falcons. He did earn a portion of it, but not all of it.

[Jaimecbr900]

true, that would seem fair, but from what ive been reading on espn.com I think that the falcons will not be able to recover as much as they want because he has earned so much of the bonus given to him already.

Seems your sources are way off. Just like a few of us said already, an arbitrator ruled that Vick has to pay back $20 million of the $22 million dollar bonus the Falcons gave him because he breached his contract. ;)


http://web.instream.com/servlets/getPlaylist?ver=2.0&nwid=11375&audit=param&format=Video-Windows-300-400x300&level=BellSouth:Bellsouth.net&content=mms://media.bellsouth.net/wmp/ap/1010dvs_vick_bonus_money_56.wmv&iab=Banner_160x600&resp=ASX&mswmext=.asx


What now? :rolleyes:

The only people out of their minds are those that support Vick.


BTW, noone has bothered to mention the FACT that he also tested positive for smoking weed. Hmmmmm, he's just the poster child for MENSA, aint he???:rolleyes:

[1000cckiller]

Seems your sources are way off. Just like a few of us said already, an arbitrator ruled that Vick has to pay back $20 million of the $22 million dollar bonus the Falcons gave him because he breached his contract. ;)


http://web.instream.com/servlets/getPlaylist?ver=2.0&nwid=11375&audit=param&format=Video-Windows-300-400x300&level=BellSouth:Bellsouth.net&content=mms://media.bellsouth.net/wmp/ap/1010dvs_vick_bonus_money_56.wmv&iab=Banner_160x600&resp=ASX&mswmext=.asx


What now? :rolleyes:

The only people out of their minds are those that support Vick.


BTW, noone has bothered to mention the FACT that he also tested positive for smoking weed. Hmmmmm, he's just the poster child for MENSA, aint he???:rolleyes:And you wont know nothing until after appeals. Majority of appeals by the NFLPA get overturned. So wait until then.

[Mchnhead2k5]

Unlike Mikey Vick, Dany Heatley actually cared for the life of Dan Snyder his teammate and roommate on the Thrashers. Unlike Vick who just killed dogs for a profit. Snyder's parents didn't want him to go to prison/jail b/c they thought that Healty already learned his lesson, the loss of killing a friend would weigh on more than any length in prison AND most of all they forgave Heatley for what he did. I don't see too many people forgiving Vick for killing animals nor does he deserve their forgiveness, but then again if you're from a Christian religion then everybody does deserve forgiveness.

[1000cckiller]

Unlike Mikey Vick, Dany Heatley actually cared for the life of Dan Snyder his teammate and roommate on the Thrashers. Unlike Vick who just killed dogs for a profit. Snyder's parents didn't want him to go to prison/jail b/c they thought that Healty already learned his lesson, the loss of killing a friend would weigh on more than any length in prison AND most of all they forgave Heatley for what he did. I don't see too many people forgiving Vick for killing animals nor does he deserve their forgiveness, but then again if you're from a Christian religion then everybody does deserve forgiveness.What ****in difference does that make, he still took a human life with dumb actions.

[Jaimecbr900]

And you wont know nothing until after appeals. Majority of appeals by the NFLPA get overturned. So wait until then.

Well, that may be true, but according to the report I read it detailed very specifically what the almost $20 million dollars came from. In other words, it wasn't simply a single $19.9 million dollar settlement. 5 came from here, 7 came from there, etc. It all stems from direct contract violations. This is why I think that Vick has less of a chance to get this over turned. Black and white contracts, such as those VERY restrictive contracts that pro athletes get, are very difficult to get around. If it says you have to eat with your non-throwing hand, then you eat with your non-throwing hand. There is little room for interpretation when you're caught eating WITH your throwing hand, right? Well, that's kind of what is happening here. His contract stipulated certain things and had quite a few caveats, I'm certain. Those conditions and warnings are probably what the Falcons are using to recover the money they paid Vick in anticipation of his long career here. Remember, he signed a $100 million dollar contract just a couple of years ago. He didn't even make it to the half way mark. It's no wonder the Falcons feel cheated. I would.