Jesus thread...

[geoff]

Blank: How would one even begin to find evidence that the Bible was or wasn't Inspired by God? Does God have a unique literary style? Did He some how impose His finger prints in the words? I look at the universe and the complexity of it, I look at phenomenon, I look at my own personal experiences; and I have faith that God is as real as the air I breathe and that He inspired the writers of the Bible. So much that they are His own words. You chose not to believe and that's fine. Like I said before though, don't expect your words to shake my faith or anyone else's for that matter.

QD: faith is something that really can't be explained. Some have so much faith, that they would lay down their lives for it. I struggled for a long time to find pure, decisive evidence of God; but then I realized something. If there were tangible evidence, then faith would become obsolete. The Bible calls faith, " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1. For the believer, all the evidence needed is in Christ Jesus. His actions, His words, His life. There is strong evidence that He was a real man as history corroborates. That is enough for an unbeliever to further search, and maybe come to have faith in Him as more than a man; but as the Son of God; fully human and fully Divine. Faith is not blind. A believer is to search and work out his/her own salvation. It is up to the believer to apply the scriptures to their lives. It is up to the believer to have more than a superficial belief, but to have a personal relationship. Faith does not happen in a day and neither is it easily achieved or maintained. Faith will be tested and tried by fire, but to those who endure there is everlasting life. Faith is a beautiful thing, it gives hope and comfort and stregnth in times when ordinary men would crumble. I wish every one could experience the faith I have and that is why I do what I do. You will not see me ever condemn anyone nor judge them, that does not build faith but rather push them away.

I will readily admit that there are faults in religion and Christianity. There is much division and so many different doctrines. I don't believe Christianity has stayed on the path it was intended to. It seems that it has become a social club and business. This however should not affect ones personal search or faith. Man kind is flawed, God is not.

[quickdodge®]

Man kind is flawed, God is not.

I've always stated that if God is for real, then He did make one mistake.

Putting man on Earth.

Later, QD.

[geoff]

Before man became a problem, God made the solution. Read the first chapter of Genesis.
Many have said that it seems that there are two creation accounts in the first two chapters. But read the first few verses. The creation of Night and Day are references to Good and Evil. Pretty interesting stuff.

[05dc5s]

Before man became a problem, God made the solution. Read the first chapter of Genesis.
Many have said that it seems that there are two creation accounts in the first two chapters. But read the first few verses. The creation of Night and Day are references to Good and Evil. Pretty interesting stuff.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you interpret it to be a reference to good and evil?

Are you disputing the two creation accounts? Do you recognize that it first says that the creatures of the sea and land were created and then man. Following almost immediately it then goes on to say man was created and then beasts and fowls? There are these inconsistencies because it was written by men.

If I was like you and put credit in the bible I would find it more interesting that in the first story it states that God is saying he made man in "our" image and after "our" likeness? Perhaps this is an artifact of previous "creation" stories from religions that have now been abandoned.

Being that this is a "Jesus" thread and you are a proclaimed Christian why are you putting much in the the old testament anyway? There is a pretty clear abandonment of this the in the new testament and the message is entirely different, going so far as to even reject some of what the criticisms that others in this thread have made about the bible. It would seem your message would come across more logically if you took that approach.

I respect that you're likely a good person with good principles and I respect your right to believe. I also understand there are good principles and messages in the bible but it's also true and clear that because the bible was written by many men with many ideas, ideals, and principles that it will hold whatever answer you seek. Like any group of people that practices the current religions or abstains from them, there will be good and there will be bad. It is not the religion or lack there of that defines that it's the individual. It doesn't require a book for that but it's in men for them to make the assertion of their belief and to say they are right. You've said it, and you're right it's your faith that makes you believe but, that is the action as it doesn't take an action to not have faith it takes an action to have one. Your argument and how you are trying to justify and explain everything make it seem like it's very important for others to agree with you to confirm that faith you've proclaimed. Read back, it's something you should consider.

[geoff]

05dc5s: The reference to Day and Night would be for good and evil. Knowing that He created good angels and also those who would rebel. Not much is given in detail about the "war" in heaven or the rebellion of Lucifer. As far as God saying "let's create man in "our" image...the Christian God is presented in three forms; God the Father, God the Som, and God the Holy Spirit. If you read the genesis account, you see God speaking things into existence, you have the reference of Day, and the reference of the Spirit hovering over the waters. They are all one and the same being, yet three different manifestations. Much like there is liquid water, ice, and vapor. God created man in "their" image in this fashion...man is a body, spirit, and soul. Much like Jesus is the body, God is the spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the soul. That is why I said before God created man (a problem), He created Himself the solution (Jesus). Further revel attain in the gospel of John says that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. This was the disciple revealing Jesus as the Word and Christ. You see then, got created a solution to man sinning even before He created man.

I had to go back and retread the Genesis account to look for the discrepancy you were trying to point out. There are not two separate creation accounts. The creation account lists God creating sea creatures on the 5th day and then man and every other beast on the 6th. Chapter 2 then describes in detail God creating Eden and putting trees and life in it. He then brings the beasts to Adam for him to name. God then sees Adam is lonely and creates Eve as a "help mate". This is not two separate accounts of creation; it is just further detailing to the beginning of man and all life. There are no inconsistencies.

I do put emphasis on the Old Testament even though this is a "Jesus thread", and rightly so. Jesus Himself said that He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Old testament is Gods first covenant with man. Man could not keep it. The prophets told of a new covenant that was to come, brought by the Messiah. That's just what Jesus did. He made Himself a sacrifice for the sins of men, so that they may be free from sin and the Law. For the Law brought forth the realization of sin and death as the punishment. No man could keep the Law for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You see, under the Law, men would bring a sacrifice once a year to the high priest. The sacrifice "covered" the sins of men and pushed them forward until the next year. Under the New Covenant, Jesus lived a sinless life and then took all the sins of man upon Himself and sacrificed His life so that we might live. Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of the Law and took it upon Himself to be the Lamb slain for mankind. Our sins are then forgiven and wiped away, not covered or pushed forward. One last thing, Jesus did not due away with Mosaic Law. He said to follow two commandments, to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and stregnth; and to love your neighbor as yourself. If one could keep these two commandments, then he/she would fulfill all the Law.

I'm not really sure what your trying to say in your last paragraph, but I will answer to the best of my understanding. First, I'm not claiming the Bible was written by one single man at one sit down. There are many authors and literary styles. That's why each book in the Bible has a separate title. Each individual author was given his own revelation and received a portion of the "story". The ideals though remain the same as does the over all message. One simply reads from beginning to end and sees it flow from one section into the other. Of course it is up to the individual to figure bad and good. We are all instilled by God with a conscience. What many atheist so wrongly assume is that Christians are somehow robotic and live strictly to the Bible. We Christians are to go beyond that. We have a personal relationship with God and grow spiritually through prayer, fasting, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us where we came from and tells of Gods love for us, it also guides us morally and gives us comfort in our daily lives. It is a big part of faith, but not faith in its entirety. Prayer and reflection upon prayer is what forms faith and the Christian as an individual. I will admit that faith requires action and unbelief does not. Me doing what I am doing on this site is not an action to proclaim my faith to others. I do not need acceptance or affirmation from people I have never met. I have and will continue to have faith regardless of what others think of me or make me out to be. My purpose here is to provide a clear image of what Christianity is and should be. The pure image of faith and Christ has been clouded and obscured by corrupt churches, scandals, perversion, and hypocrisy. The image or impression that modern Christianity has left is not a true reflection of God, Jesus, faith, or the Bible. I have admired also that I myself am not a true representation of it either. I am flesh and blood and flawed. I have faults, I sin, and have an imperfect nature. All I aim to do is guide people past the cloudiness and to Jesus. You may see it as primitive or in vain, but God has helped a few on here find faith again through my words. Even one soul is worth ridicule and jokes my friend. I force no man on here to believe what I do, I simply provide an opportunity to discover faith for themselves.

[Sinfix_15]

Simontibbett: it would be a lot of information for me to post on here, but it you are truly curious, read the thread under "news and politics" titled "are we blind, or playing stupid". I had a debate there about rape and slavery in the Bible. I also went into great length to describe Jewish tradition and Mosaic Law. You will also see how some of the atheists here show their knowledge of scripture, or lack there of. Slavery and rape are in the Bible as is "murder". Rape was punishable by death and slavery then was not what slavery in modern terms was. Slaves were to be treated very well under the "golden rule" and there was punishment for abuse. Also, slaves were to be set free every 7 years. What some here label as "murder" was realistically casualties of war. It was also punishment for sin. The wages of sun is death, it always has been. God sent the Israelites to pass judgement on idol worshiping nations that sacrificed their children. These nations were sinful and paid the price for sin....death. But don't be swift to judge. God also passes judgement on His own people, I.E. the story of David and the many times the people of Israel are taken captive as slaves. As the New Testament clearly puts it, " e Ed.)
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1peter 4:17

A casualty of war is when soldiers or civilians are killed in battle are as an effect from battle. If an army killed a child because a child got caught in the crossfire, that would be a casualty of war. When the battle is over and someone says "go kill the children and bring all the women for our soldiers to rape" that is murder and rape. You can say God punished them for the murder and rape, but they took the city in God's name. The bible claims God gave them the power to overthrow these cities for their wickedness, but then they turn around and do wicked things themselves? Free will is the ultimate loop hole for religion.

It's like god could hand someone a ski mask, a machine gun and a sack, tell them to go into the bank and get all the money. The guy goes in, kills everyone and robs the bank. Then god's answer is, "he did that on his own, he could have wrote a check"

[geoff]

It's hard for someone who doesn't understand the ways of God to truly understand what took place. First, a nation was offered surrender. If they refused they were annihilated. God pronounced judgement on the wicked, they paid the penalty for sin...death. You don't have to agree, but that was punishment according to Jewish Law. God never told them to go in and rape the women. The women were taken as wives for Jewish men. What you are doing is holding God accountable to what you think is right and wrong. If an evil nation/man is punished by death; was justice done? For example, that ginger that shot up the theatre, if he gets the death penalty; is it morally wrong since a life was taken? What constitutes "innocent"? Just some food for thought.

Of course free will is a loop hole, but it is not one reserved for Christianity alone. A siolder takes orders from his superior, if that siolder then abuses his power and commits some sort of war crime, is he not punished? If he was ordered to go capture an enemy strong hold and does so, but also tortures the inhabitants and prisoners; is that the fault of the superior because he gave him authority to use force? I think not. Everyone is responsible and held liable for their actions.

[Sinfix_15]

It's hard for someone who doesn't understand the ways of God to truly understand what took place. First, a nation was offered surrender. If they refused they were annihilated. God pronounced judgement on the wicked, they paid the penalty for sin...death. You don't have to agree, but that was punishment according to Jewish Law. God never told them to go in and rape the women. The women were taken as wives for Jewish men. What you are doing is holding God accountable to what you think is right and wrong. If an evil nation/man is punished by death; was justice done? For example, that ginger that shot up the theatre, if he gets the death penalty; is it morally wrong since a life was taken? What constitutes "innocent"? Just some food for thought.

Of course free will is a loop hole, but it is not one reserved for Christianity alone. A siolder takes orders from his superior, if that siolder then abuses his power and commits some sort of war crime, is he not punished? If he was ordered to go capture an enemy strong hold and does so, but also tortures the inhabitants and prisoners; is that the fault of the superior because he gave him authority to use force? I think not. Everyone is responsible and held liable for their actions.

Can you show me a scripture that clearly defines that what they did was wrong? any scripture that references these actions in a negative light.

[geoff]

I have already provided scripture that show rape is punishable and so is murder. What are you missing?

[Sinfix_15]

I have already provided scripture that show rape is punishable and so is murder. What are you missing?

That's like pointing out the small print at the bottom of a screen on an infomercial. I want to see a scripture where someone addresses the fact that Moses' army killed a city full of children and raped their women. Not just a blanket statement applied to everything.

[geoff]

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Exodus 21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

Numbers 35:20-21 But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die; Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.

Isaiah 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. ( God condemning Jews)

"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her," (Deut. 22:25-27).

"If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you." duet. 22:23-24

[Sinfix_15]

will get back to this thread after work when i have time to read into those.

[geoff]

That's like pointing out the small print at the bottom of a screen on an infomercial. I want to see a scripture where someone addresses the fact that Moses' army killed a city full of children and raped their women. Not just a blanket statement applied to everything.

You know that such scripture does not exist. Do you know why God sent the Israelites to destroy the Cannanites? They were a nation of idolaters, fornicators, murderers, child sacrifice practitioners, ect...The punishment for sin was and is death. God pronounced judgement on these people and enacted it swiftly. Do you know why He commanded that they even wipe out the cattle, sheep, ect...? He purified the land so that the Israelites would not fall into the practices of the condemned nation. We as men are all found guilty in the face of the Righteous and Holy God. He states that sin has no place with Him. The men, women, and children were all guilty of sin. As far as the children goes, no one is certain as to how they are judged. I believe the Righteous Judge does not condemn children that have no understanding of right and wrong. They were commanded to go to war with a nation and wipe it out, God gave them the ability to carry out His justice.

[05dc5s]

05dc5s: The reference to Day and Night would be for good and evil. Knowing that He created good angels and also those who would rebel. Not much is given in detail about the "war" in heaven or the rebellion of Lucifer. As far as God saying "let's create man in "our" image...the Christian God is presented in three forms; God the Father, God the Som, and God the Holy Spirit. If you read the genesis account, you see God speaking things into existence, you have the reference of Day, and the reference of the Spirit hovering over the waters. They are all one and the same being, yet three different manifestations. Much like there is liquid water, ice, and vapor. God created man in "their" image in this fashion...man is a body, spirit, and soul. Much like Jesus is the body, God is the spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the soul. That is why I said before God created man (a problem), He created Himself the solution (Jesus). Further revel attain in the gospel of John says that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. This was the disciple revealing Jesus as the Word and Christ. You see then, got created a solution to man sinning even before He created man.

I had to go back and retread the Genesis account to look for the discrepancy you were trying to point out. There are not two separate creation accounts. The creation account lists God creating sea creatures on the 5th day and then man and every other beast on the 6th. Chapter 2 then describes in detail God creating Eden and putting trees and life in it. He then brings the beasts to Adam for him to name. God then sees Adam is lonely and creates Eve as a "help mate". This is not two separate accounts of creation; it is just further detailing to the beginning of man and all life. There are no inconsistencies.

I do put emphasis on the Old Testament even though this is a "Jesus thread", and rightly so. Jesus Himself said that He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Old testament is Gods first covenant with man. Man could not keep it. The prophets told of a new covenant that was to come, brought by the Messiah. That's just what Jesus did. He made Himself a sacrifice for the sins of men, so that they may be free from sin and the Law. For the Law brought forth the realization of sin and death as the punishment. No man could keep the Law for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You see, under the Law, men would bring a sacrifice once a year to the high priest. The sacrifice "covered" the sins of men and pushed them forward until the next year. Under the New Covenant, Jesus lived a sinless life and then took all the sins of man upon Himself and sacrificed His life so that we might live. Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of the Law and took it upon Himself to be the Lamb slain for mankind. Our sins are then forgiven and wiped away, not covered or pushed forward. One last thing, Jesus did not due away with Mosaic Law. He said to follow two commandments, to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and stregnth; and to love your neighbor as yourself. If one could keep these two commandments, then he/she would fulfill all the Law.

I'm not really sure what your trying to say in your last paragraph, but I will answer to the best of my understanding. First, I'm not claiming the Bible was written by one single man at one sit down. There are many authors and literary styles. That's why each book in the Bible has a separate title. Each individual author was given his own revelation and received a portion of the "story". The ideals though remain the same as does the over all message. One simply reads from beginning to end and sees it flow from one section into the other. Of course it is up to the individual to figure bad and good. We are all instilled by God with a conscience. What many atheist so wrongly assume is that Christians are somehow robotic and live strictly to the Bible. We Christians are to go beyond that. We have a personal relationship with God and grow spiritually through prayer, fasting, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us where we came from and tells of Gods love for us, it also guides us morally and gives us comfort in our daily lives. It is a big part of faith, but not faith in its entirety. Prayer and reflection upon prayer is what forms faith and the Christian as an individual. I will admit that faith requires action and unbelief does not. Me doing what I am doing on this site is not an action to proclaim my faith to others. I do not need acceptance or affirmation from people I have never met. I have and will continue to have faith regardless of what others think of me or make me out to be. My purpose here is to provide a clear image of what Christianity is and should be. The pure image of faith and Christ has been clouded and obscured by corrupt churches, scandals, perversion, and hypocrisy. The image or impression that modern Christianity has left is not a true reflection of God, Jesus, faith, or the Bible. I have admired also that I myself am not a true representation of it either. I am flesh and blood and flawed. I have faults, I sin, and have an imperfect nature. All I aim to do is guide people past the cloudiness and to Jesus. You may see it as primitive or in vain, but God has helped a few on here find faith again through my words. Even one soul is worth ridicule and jokes my friend. I force no man on here to believe what I do, I simply provide an opportunity to discover faith for themselves.

There are quite clearly conflicting accounts in the creation story and while you disagree I'm quite capable of quoting the passages that illustrate this but, that would be unproductive if you have already chosen the book to be infallible as it seems you do. Ultimately it doesn't matter what I or anyone else on here think and while you say "all your trouble is worth it if..." the thin I would you to examine if you're so bent on you're assertion that you're right and working for a worthy cause is to look to the proclaimed actions of the man you made this thread about. He rejected what many were doing in the name of religion he rejected and destroyed temples, he hung around the disenfranchised, he spent time with whore, the homeless and the poor. If you're so confident in your beliefs and truly grounded it doesn't matter what I or anyone else things. Spend your time helping those that your book teaches you to help and don't waste your time on a car forum verbally jousting those that don't feel the need to be or do good because of the writings in your book. Good and Evil existed prior to the Christian religion and they will exist after it.

I say all this because I truly believe that you are here and engage in the conversations because you are seeking confirmation and you feel the need for people to agree with you to validate your belief. Trying being objectively introspective and you may be surprised at what you find.

[05dc5s]

You know that such scripture does not exist. Do you know why God sent the Israelites to destroy the Cannanites? They were a nation of idolaters, fornicators, murderers, child sacrifice practitioners, ect...The punishment for sin was and is death. God pronounced judgement on these people and enacted it swiftly. Do you know why He commanded that they even wipe out the cattle, sheep, ect...? He purified the land so that the Israelites would not fall into the practices of the condemned nation. We as men are all found guilty in the face of the Righteous and Holy God. He states that sin has no place with Him. The men, women, and children were all guilty of sin. As far as the children goes, no one is certain as to how they are judged. I believe the Righteous Judge does not condemn children that have no understanding of right and wrong. They were commanded to go to war with a nation and wipe it out, God gave them the ability to carry out His justice.

Listen to what you are saying. You're agree that that it was right for individuals to choose to slay innocent women and children because their practices were different from what they felt was right... unfounded I might add. They judged others and committed murder, rape, and slavery. Think about what you have read and know about Jesus, is this what he would have done or what he taught?

Take the parallel to current times. If Christians or any other religion took such an action against a nation or a group of people in the name of their god whom would support it? No good person would and Christians if they were not the ones that took such an action would proclaim such an action as sin and not something that Jesus would do. Yet, now, at this moment, you defend it and are justifying it. Why? Because if you were to begin to reject some part of your bible you may begin to question yourself and your faith. Again I believe you to be a good person with good intentions but I believe you are seeking a confirmation of your faith through these conversations.

[05dc5s]

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Exodus 21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

Numbers 35:20-21 But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die; Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.

Isaiah 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. ( God condemning Jews)

"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her," (Deut. 22:25-27).

"If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you." duet. 22:23-24

That is sick and despicable to state that women have any responsibility in rape. To imply otherwise is evil and only reflects to the way of thinking that existed at that time...when women were property.

[geoff]

Thanks for the psychiatric evaluation, but I already stated why I do this. Someone has to proclaim what true Christianity is. The world has had enough of the corrupt and hypocritical "church". I have visited many atheist blogs and religious debates. It would seem that atheists have a passionate hatred for Christians. They are fed up with the "business", the deception, the scandal and hypocrisy. All I see is hateful remarks aimed to degrade those with beliefs and faith and make them out to be stupid. What the world sees of Christians is not a true representation of Christ. If no one steps up and says the truth, then the message is lost. You wondered into a religion inspired thread my friend. No one forces you to read this or contemplate what is said.

[05dc5s]

Thanks for the psychiatric evaluation, but I already stated why I do this. Someone has to proclaim what true Christianity is. The world has had enough of the corrupt and hypocritical "church". I have visited many atheist blogs and religious debates. It would seem that atheists have a passionate hatred for Christians. They are fed up with the "business", the deception, the scandal and hypocrisy. All I see is hateful remarks aimed to degrade those with beliefs and faith and make them out to be stupid. What the world sees of Christians is not a true representation of Christ. If no one steps up and says the truth, then the message is lost. You wondered into a religion inspired thread my friend. No one forces you to read this or contemplate what is said.

Like I said before I believe your're well intentioned however, I disagree that you need the bible to be or know good. I don't hate you, Christians, or any group just blindly for that matter. I do disagree with some of what you say and when I see you holding onto some part of the bible that is clearly wrong and is used by others to take an ill action then I speak up about it.

[geoff]

I never said one needed to know the Bible to know good from evil. We all have a conscience. I already described what the Bible is to believers, to atheists its just some old book. The message contained in it has no meaning or impact on those who have no faith. I agree with you that some have used the Binle for Ill intentions, but that is not a fair representation of the whole. Many evil things have been done under the disguise of good intentions, hitler is a prime example. We can just agree to disagree.

[geoff]

You have not seen me once use scripture for ill intentions or actions.

[05dc5s]

I never said one needed to know the Bible to know good from evil. We all have a conscience. I already described what the Bible is to believers, to atheists its just some old book. The message contained in it has no meaning or impact on those who have no faith. I agree with you that some have used the Binle for Ill intentions, but that is not a fair representation of the whole. Many evil things have been done under the disguise of good intentions, hitler is a prime example. We can just agree to disagree.

Your blindly believing that everything in the bible is good, right, correct, righteous, and well intentioned is why I made my statements. With the same justification and confidence you proclaim Hitler committed evil actions(which he did) you should acknowledge that evil and wrong actions were committed in the old testament. Under the guise of righteousness that Hitler committed his ill actions can you not see the the precise parallel in the actions committed in the old testament? If you posses a great knowledge and history and the bible then you will see this and grasp an understanding of how Hitler was so successful in manipulating masses. He was a terrible person and I only use this example because of you bringing it up.

[05dc5s]

You have not seen me once use scripture for ill intentions or actions.

Nor have I stated that you have. I've repeatedly stated that I believe you to be well intentionted in spite of me agreeing with you or believing you to be right.

[geoff]

With greater understanding I can say that no evil actions were commanded by God. It's as simple as this, they commuted crimes punishable by death and God carried out that punishment either by war, plagues, or natural disasters. You don't have to agree with the judgement or actions of God. We as humans are capable of thought and intelligence, therefore we each make up our own minds as to what is right or wrong. I support the death penalty, some don't. Some support America going to war in the middle east, others do not. Some are conservatives while others are liberals. People deciding what's good, bad, right, wrong, productive and destructive. So if everyone has their own interpretation and opinion, then who or what is right and what's wrong? Are you the ultimate authority? Am I? Is anyone? You understand that when interpreting an event, their will be more than one interpretation? Hiltler was considered evil, yet he did something great. Great does not always mean morally right or productive. I hope you can understand this.

[geoff]

As long as we can come to a mutual understanding and respect each other despite our different views, then we demonstrate humanity at its finest.

[Sinfix_15]

You know that such scripture does not exist. Do you know why God sent the Israelites to destroy the Cannanites? They were a nation of idolaters, fornicators, murderers, child sacrifice practitioners, ect...The punishment for sin was and is death. God pronounced judgement on these people and enacted it swiftly. Do you know why He commanded that they even wipe out the cattle, sheep, ect...? He purified the land so that the Israelites would not fall into the practices of the condemned nation. We as men are all found guilty in the face of the Righteous and Holy God. He states that sin has no place with Him. The men, women, and children were all guilty of sin. As far as the children goes, no one is certain as to how they are judged. I believe the Righteous Judge does not condemn children that have no understanding of right and wrong. They were commanded to go to war with a nation and wipe it out, God gave them the ability to carry out His justice.

My mind just cant fathom this being the right thing to do. As ive said before, believing isnt the only obstacle in my way, i dont agree whether i believe or not.

[Sinfix_15]

As long as we can come to a mutual understanding and respect each other despite our different views, then we demonstrate humanity at its finest.

I respect you. Of all the people who participate in these threads, you're probably the person i disagree with the most, but also the 1st person id want to sit down and talk to. I agree with most of blank's views on religion, i wouldnt want to be in the same room with him.

[geoff]

To be honest I never questioned the Bible or God. I read it for what it was and agreed. I have though questioned the church. Man is very very fallible. I ran into some obstacles that weighed heavily on my faith. Glad we can respect eachother.

[guinness]

Here is the irony of religion, Christianity more specifically. The Bible says that Jesus/God does not want us to live in fear or to be afraid, but then in the same book also says that he will put into the lake of fire cowards. Really? How the hell are you going to expect anyone to not live in fear when you just put it in them by saying that you will be cast into that lake if you are scared, so you are running around scared that you will be thrown into that lake of fire because he said you would if you were a coward of any kind, so it's a catch-22 that you can't win or really accomplish. God says to treat everyone as you would want to be treated. If that is the case, when someone dOes wrong to you, does that mean that they are wanting to be wrong themselves and if so and you do such a thing, you have just broken one of his mighty commandments. The bible also says to have no false gods or idols made, but the Catholic church or any religion for that matter has made images of God, the saints, Mary, etc, and thus broken that law in effect as well. ReallY? I could go on and on about this, but the bottom line is this; the bible is a great guideline for living good, but it i also a standard that was set by so high and out of reach that it is impossible to do. ALSO, the bible was written by who? Man. Man who was under the "divine" inspiration of God, but still was man's hand that wrote it and thus was subject to their own interpretation of what they were being told or heard themselves. Unless God HIMSELF wrote that book, then it is flawed from the beginning becasue man wrote it.....PERIOD!!

[geoff]

Here is the irony of religion, Christianity more specifically. The Bible says that Jesus/God does not want us to live in fear or to be afraid, but then in the same book also says that he will put into the lake of fire cowards. Really? How the hell are you going to expect anyone to not live in fear when you just put it in them by saying that you will be cast into that lake if you are scared, so you are running around scared that you will be thrown into that lake of fire because he said you would if you were a coward of any kind, so it's a catch-22 that you can't win or really accomplish. God says to treat everyone as you would want to be treated. If that is the case, when someone dOes wrong to you, does that mean that they are wanting to be wrong themselves and if so and you do such a thing, you have just broken one of his mighty commandments. The bible also says to have no false gods or idols made, but the Catholic church or any religion for that matter has made images of God, the saints, Mary, etc, and thus broken that law in effect as well. ReallY? I could go on and on about this, but the bottom line is this; the bible is a great guideline for living good, but it i also a standard that was set by so high and out of reach that it is impossible to do. ALSO, the bible was written by who? Man. Man who was under the "divine" inspiration of God, but still was man's hand that wrote it and thus was subject to their own interpretation of what they were being told or heard themselves. Unless God HIMSELF wrote that book, then it is flawed from the beginning becasue man wrote it.....PERIOD!!

First, can you quote from scripture the part I made bold? Or are those just your own personal interpretations? Yes the Bible teaches to treat everyone as you want to be treated, specifically, to love your neighbor as yourself. No man in his right mind would intentionally harm himself. Jesus also teaches that when someone does you wrong, slap in the face, give them the other cheek also. He teaches to not seek revenge because vengeance belongs to the Lord. So if a man does you wrong, and you do wrong back to him, you are not following the Biblical teachings and therefore are just as guilty as the man that wronged you. Yes there exists Christian sects or denominations that make graven images and have false idols. Catholics and Orthodox come to mind. These churches are guilty of breaking the commandments. I completely agree with you their. The modern church is flawed, that is why the Bible says that God does not dwell in buildings nor is He confined to them. It also says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The Bible does not set ridiculous standards. Read the New Testament, as this is the covenant that we are judged by. There are two simple rules; love your God and love your neighbor as yourself. It goes on then to teach you how one can live a life of purity through Christ. It is not some unobtainable goal, it is very realistic. Yes the Bible was penned by men who were Divinely Inspired. But do you know what Divinely inspired means? The Holy Spirit of God is what moved on these men. I can not even begin to describe what that is to you, it is something that a believer themselves have to experience. If you understood though, you would see that it was basically God Himself that wrote the scriptures. The Holy Spirit dwelled in men and moved on them to write the scriptures.

[guinness]

Revelation 21:8; notice he lists cowards first, before all the others and has done it several other times in the bible.

[guinness]

As far as inspiration goes to write the bible, then why not inspire Moses to write the commandments? Isn't the spirit the same as God and Jesus? Aren't they the same in the trinity? If it's God's word, then it should be God writing it by his own hand and not by "inspiration". Crowley was inspired to write the Black writings and such, so are these the literal word of God...or of Satan, and if so, then why are they dismissed as written by a man who was off his rocker? Again, Christianity's double standard. Do as I say and command, but not as I do type shit. How much Jesus juice do you have to drink in order to daily keep buying into this shit?

[bu villain]

Jesus also teaches that when someone does you wrong, slap in the face, give them the other cheek also. He teaches to not seek revenge because vengeance belongs to the Lord. So if a man does you wrong, and you do wrong back to him, you are not following the Biblical teachings and therefore are just as guilty as the man that wronged you.

How do you reconcile this view with your support of the death penalty Geoff? These seem to be at odds with each other.

[geoff]

Moses was inspired to write the commandments, God wrote them first and then when Moses broke them, he wrote them himself. Do you not know the story? Can you compare crowleys writings to a tradition that predates recorded history? " do as I say and command, not as I do" ??? Are you serious, what exactly does the Bible say Jesus did? God came down in flesh as Jesus, underwent our struggles, fears, anxieties, and temptations yet managed to fulfill the Law perfectly. How much of the scriptures do you actually know? Or are you following the assumptions of a man who also didn't research and claims unbelief?

[geoff]

Bu villain: I reconcile my beliefs with the death penalty as so: Jesus commanded that we submit ourselves not only to God but to the governing body as well. We are to follow Gods laws and the ones which we set to rule over us. If a man commits murder, he is punishable by death by our laws as well as Biblically. It is not up to me as an individual to seek justice. I am to pray that that man/woman may come to find forgiveness in the eyes of God and I am to find it in my heart to forgive him as well. Forgiveness in my eyes and Gods' does not though excuse that murderer from the laws by which we govern ourselves.

[guinness]

Satan came down before he did as a snake and made his appearance. SO what. So since Moses wrote them after God did, who is to say that he did his own writing of it because at his old-ass age, memory isn't the best anymore. Besides that, man wrote it; you said it yourself just before. If man wrote it, where are they? Not the ark, those contain the real things according to legend and the bible as well as the rod of Aaron, etc. Fulfill the law perfectly? Define the law being fulfilled perfectly. Are you defining it according to what you read or were you divinely inspired to interpret or define it?

[geoff]

Guinness: what you are showing me is that you haven't read/understood scripture. I'm not trying to insult you, but you are trying to point out faults or inconsistencies that honestly are not there. God was present with Moses on Mt. Sinai when the commandments were given. "if man wrote it, where are they"? Is this a question of where the authors are( they are dead) or where the ten commandments are? The commandments themselves are contained in the Ark of the Covenant, which has eluded discovery as to this day.

Definition of the Law being fulfilled perfectly: Jesus commited no sin. That is the Law fulfilled. I define it according to what the Bible defined as the Law. It is not of my own interpretation. The Law detailed what was sin, what was prohibited, and how a Jew was to conduct themselves. Jesus adhered to it without fault. I honestly hope you have a stronger basis for your argument then scripture. As you have demonstrated that you don't believe in scripture nor have read it.

[.blank cd]

Guinness: what he actually meant to say was "You don't interpret the bible the same way I do, so your way is wrong and you don't understand it."

[geoff]

Ah blank, yet another "expert" in scripture that FAA to demonstrate common and basic knowledge of scripture. How can you interpret anything that you have no knowledge of?

[guinness]

I have read scripture, my mother has a doctorate in Theology and Escatology as well as other fields, but the fact that you say that I have no basis other than scripture for my arguments just nullifies your ability to argue back with anything concerning Christianity or religion because your whole rebuttal on any topic is built on and/or around scripture itself and only that. Yes, the people who had the commandments are dead, duh, they're sure as shit not older than Methuselah and didn't ride off on a chariot into the clouds lie Enoch or Elijah and then make a glorious return sometime later. Also, you said that God wrote the commandments and then Moses had to rewrite them because God commanded him to or whatever and are now in the Ark? Really? They would put an item that was rewritten by man after the original written by God himself, supposedly, was destroyed, into the most sacred and powerful item in all of bible and especially the Jewish faith? That's the case, then why not just put any written piece of material into there? It's holy and sacred because it is perceived as containing items that were either created by God or were from God. AS far as the location of the Ark goes,it is not "missing" and it is not in Ethiopia like so many people think it is or in some warehouse like in Indiana Jones. look up Jeremiah's Grotto and trace it through history and it's location from then until now and all that has happened literally on top of the grotto. I am not going to believe in a book that man's hand penned because it was man's hand, not God. Secondly, why do I need to believe in a book that is not complete and is missing some very important books in it that really need to be there to clear the confusion up, or at least make the best effort at it possible because the Vatican sees them as being not that important. The book is incomplete, too controversial, and has caused more problems of what it talks against than any other item in the history of the world.

[geoff]

I have read scripture, my mother has a doctorate in Theology and Escatology as well as other fields

First off, let me say that I really am not trying to offend you or stir up any emotions of anger. I will just simply clarify the truth on this subject. With that said, your mother should have a pretty good understanding of scripture then as should you; im sure she has spoken to you about it and you also claim to have read yourself. I can not then understand where your misinformation or confusion comes from. I will demonstrate below what I mean by you being misinformed and confused. Again, I do not aim to piss you off or make you out to be an idiot.

but the fact that you say that I have no basis other than scripture for my arguments just nullifies your ability to argue back with anything concerning Christianity or religion because your whole rebuttal on any topic is built on and/or around scripture itself and only that.

My point was this, you were trying to point out inconsistencies in scripture, therefore the debate became about the authenticity, accuracy, and legitimacy of scripture. What then shall I use as a source then when you claim, " the Bible says this and is contradicting itself"? Should I not then use scripture to defend scripture? As far as arguing about religion and Christianity; yes I will use scripture when one tries to use it against me. Yes I will use scripture when one says, " how do you believe Jesus fulfilled the Law"? When the thread topic was homosexuality or evolution, I did not use scripture or anything of faith. You can easily go back and see that.

Yes, the people who had the commandments are dead, duh, they're sure as shit not older than Methuselah and didn't ride off on a chariot into the clouds lie Enoch or Elijah and then make a glorious return sometime later.

First sign of misinformation or confusion; neither one of these men, Enoch or Elijah made any kind of glorious return. Also, the Bible does not say Enoch was carried off on a chariot of fire, it simply says, Enoch "walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" Gen.5:24

Also, you said that God wrote the commandments and then Moses had to rewrite them because God commanded him to or whatever and are now in the Ark? Really? They would put an item that was rewritten by man after the original written by God himself, supposedly, was destroyed, into the most sacred and powerful item in all of bible and especially the Jewish faith?

This is another example as to your confusion. God wrote the first set of commandments as described in Exodus 31:18 "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." Moses then went back down to the Israelites and witnessed them worshiping the calf of gold. In his anger he smashed the two tablets. Later on, he goes back on the mountain and receives the second set as described in Exodus 34:27-28 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." One can clearly see who "chiseled" the second set. Were they still the words of God? Of course, God was with Moses up on the mountain and God was the author, Moses His pen. Yes these two unbroken tablets were stored in the Ark as it says in Exod 25:16 "And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you." The book containing the rituals and ceremonies was stored along side the Ark but not in it. The Ark also contained a jar of mana and the rod of Aaron as described in Exod 16:32-33 "Then Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD has commanded: 'Fill an omer with it, to be kept for your generations, that they may see the bread with which I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.' And Moses said to Aaron, Take a pot and put an omer of manna in it, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations." and Num 17:7-8 "And Moses placed the rods before the LORD in the tabernacle of witness. Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses went into the tabernacle of witness, and behold, the rod of Aaron, of the house of Levi, had sprouted and put forth buds, had produced blossoms and yielded ripe almonds."
which are also referenced in Hebrews 9:4 "Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;"

That's the case, then why not just put any written piece of material into there? It's holy and sacred because it is perceived as containing items that were either created by God or were from God.

I believe I just covered this in the statements above. But to break it down further. The two tablets, they were the original Words of God scribed by His finger. The children of Israel broke the covenant when they were worshiping the golden calf. ( symbolism as Moses shatters the two original tablets.) The Israelites are punished and then God tells Moses two fashion two more tablets of which the words shall be rewritten. God was with Moses in person on the mountain. Not many more Holy or Divine encounters than that in the entire Bible. How then can you make it seem that the second set was insignificant? It symbolizes a renewed covenant between man and God. The jar of mana is there to remind Gods' people of His provision. The staff symbolizes Gods' approval of Aaron into the priesthood.

AS far as the location of the Ark goes,it is not "missing" and it is not in Ethiopia like so many people think it is or in some warehouse like in Indiana Jones. look up Jeremiah's Grotto and trace it through history and it's location from then until now and all that has happened literally on top of the grotto.

I was very unaware of this, you could imagine how this wouldn't be reported as a "popular" subject in modern times. I thank you for the information as I was completely unaware of it. One can only hope that it is true. I found this site, very very interesting. Ark of Covenant, Pt. 1

I am not going to believe in a book that man's hand penned because it was man's hand, not God.

Everyone has there own opinion.

Secondly, why do I need to believe in a book that is not complete and is missing some very important books in it that really need to be there to clear the confusion up, or at least make the best effort at it possible because the Vatican sees them as being not that important.

Im curious how you find the Bible in its current form incomplete? You are talking about the "missing" books found in the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls. There are some good things in those, one quote I especially like is ""The Kingdom of God is inside/within you (and all about you), not in buildings/mansions of wood and stone. (When I am gone) Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift the/a stone and you will find me." From the gospel of Thomas. There are reasons as to why these books were not included in the canon. They were Gnostic writings ( you can tell by the message they give) that do not match with the accepted inspired words that are in the Bible today. To put is shortly, these were written by men who were a small sect considered to be blasphemers even by the early church.

The book is incomplete, too controversial, and has caused more problems of what it talks against than any other item in the history of the world.

Incomplete according to who? Are their mysteries concerning God, the heavens, ect....? Sure there are. Man is not meant to know all that is under heaven and earth. We saw with the tower of Babel what happens when mens' ego and pride gets too big. If God revealed every mystery, how long before prideful man thinks himself to be a god? Think about that honestly for a moment. Controversial? Who makes it controversial? The controversy comes from those that either do not believe in the Bible or do not want to submit to it as Gods Word. The Bible causes no controversy. It is man that thinks himself more moral and righteous than God that stirs emotions and causes controversy. The Bible has not caused problems. Men have done evil things in the name of scripture or God, but their actions alone speak that they are not Holy or Divinely inspired/led. You speak of the issue of homosexuality. Sure the Bible condemns it. It is men that have fashioned it as an acceptable lifestyle and a progressive issue. Men have free will to follow the Bible or do as the wish. It is the voice of the oppressive that seek to force belief onto an unbelieving people, to use scripture to somehow further their own beliefs. One that follows the scriptures knows that they are not to force faith on anyone, but rather speak of it and leave it up to that man or woman to decide for themselves.

You know, I have been trying to figure you out. You seem like a man that is conflicted in his faith. You want to believe but can not due to the fallibility and flaw of man.