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Wise words sir, and I completely agree. PREVENTATIVE care is the keyword, and since this is a car forum lets put this in analogous terms. Do you change your engine/trans/diff. fluids at the recommended intervals, or do you wait for damage to happen? Do you get new tires before they are worn, or wait to hydroplane into a wall?
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Originally Posted by nelson9995
you guys couldnt be more further from the truth.
Preventative care is YOUR responsibility, not a business owners. YOU should be responsible for your own well being, if you want health care, GO BUY IT. If you want preventative care, GO SCHEDULE IT.
The people that "cant afford" healthcare fall into 2 groups
1) People who legit cant afford care, make too little money, etc
2) They dont buy healthcare because they dont make it a priority. Nelson i GUARANTEE you can afford healthcare, you just choose NOT to buy it. IF it was really important to you you could buy it.
Not true. If you have skills you get paid well, what you guys want is minimum wage jobs to pay you $50,000 a year. Hey, if you dont like it go start your own business if its so easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
People go in business to GET RICH. If you dont like it , leave. Go start your own company. Go to another country that pays $8 to a 16 year old.....oh wait you cant. Are some business owners shrewd? Yeah , sure, but who is forcing you to work for them? GO somewhere else.Quote:
I was watching undercover boss and I can't remember the last time I got that angry. The owner went for a week undercover doing what his employees do and by NO MEANS he could do what they did. Not even in double the time. These people are being worked in paces where only robots would be able to do it effectively. Even though he couldn't do ANYTHING, not even in double the time as his employees, he didn't do anything to change it. He just congratulated them, (In other words, "thanks for making me money bitches") and didn't change a thing. Why? because he could care less about his employees, all he cares about is them making him money.
If you ever become a business owner youll understand.Quote:
Sadly, this is the way it is in 99% of the cases. Most business owners disgust me.
I've only met one business owner, in my entire life, who I actually looked up to.
That is you, why should I pay more for things I am not able to take any advantage of? The purpose of a business is to make a profit so of course they are against ANY new costs that hurt their bottom line. It isnt about caring for anyone, its about expecting people to take care of themselves. Why do I need to take care of someone when they are doing absolutely nothing to take care of themselves? Why should I pay more for my coverage cause some fat ass smoker gets cancer?Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
Name 1 single fortune 500 company that only pays minimum wage. I mean really, you have to be a complete knuckle dragging idiot to believe this. I understand you hate and are jealous of the rich. People who consistently make poor choices in life usually are. The vast majority of those rich people are rich is because they work harder than you are they work smarter than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
So just because someone who has no training or experience doing a particular job means he doesnt pay well enough? You just keep topping yourself. I seriously doubt the CEO of the company I work for could do my job at my speed with only a week to learn it. I had a decade of experience doing this type of work before I started this job and I am FAR faster doing it than I was in the first week.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
I would imagine that in 99% of cases a small business owner can do any job in the place. When you get into medium and large businesses, the owner/CEO has far more important things to do than the grunt work.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
I seriously doubt you have met many successful business owners. By your definitions of a business owner, they paid too much and didnt profit enough.
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Originally Posted by .blank cd
Another tired argument that you and a couple others use. Police, fire, and military are a service provided by the govt and paid for through taxes. They are overpriced and inefficient. Then you go into the crazy crap that only proves you dont have a real argument. You do bring up the dept of ed though. What does the dept do that justifies the cost? Over 100B a year for nothing. The states didnt teach that before the dept of ed, and they wont if its gone again.
Yea, lets use cars as an example. Does you car insurance pay for fluid changes and new tires? No, they dont. Preventive maintenance is your responsibility. Costs would go down drasticly if health insurance would use the same model. Insurance to cover unexpected problems, not day to day maintenance.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinT707
One thing i forgot was, I bet none of the minimum wage employees have the education the CEO does, and can run a multi million dollar company.
Just went down the Fortune500 list and about 80% of the first 100 companies pay their primary workforce under $9 an hourQuote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
link or list ? IM curious to see that information.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
But in context, all companies have entry level jobs right? Entry level jobs probably are the majority of any positions out there because they are the EASIEST to obtain. Point being there are tons of $9/hour jobs, but theres very few $100/hour jobs comparitively speaking.
SO while the Fortune 500s have a ton of lower paying jobs and that is their primary work force, that is just simply statistical probability.
Example: Tons of people have COllege Degrees, very few have Harvard Degrees
Full 2012 list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...012/full_list/
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Originally Posted by .blank cd
$9/hr is more than minimum wage. Thanks for proving my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Lets look at the ones you are likely talking about.
Is bagging groceries or stocking shelves for Walgreens, Wal-Mart or Kroger worth more than $9/hr? Absolutely not.
You also have to remember that turnaround in these positions is VERY high where the majority of workers are there for 3 years or less and many are HS students.
Doesn't help your point at all that the top two actually DO pay their workers min wage. I'll consider 9 and under barely scraping by in today's economy.
From these posts I can conclude two things. bangingJimmy would be one of those selfish CEO's that could care less about his workers. His workers deserve to come out of work with their body hurting because he wants to go on vacation more often, and open a new branch, while his workers can't afford to drive a decent car.
Why should walmart pay their cashiers $7.25 when thery can afford to pay them $26 an hour and still make a profit. By no means they should be getting paid $26, but at least start them at $10-12 I would say. This is what I'm talking about.
Cocacola pays their warehouse employees $8. Have you seen the condition they work in? I am willing to bet my left nut you wouldn't last a week in there. I know some of these employyes. They come home and get in ice water from the pain and stress the job creates, yet cocacola keeps growing and making more and more money.
SO what? He started the business, he took the risk to create the jobs that employ them in the first place. Its HIS COMPANY. If the workers dont like the Pay, the work, or the hours, they are free to go somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
Business is dictated by competition. If you dont like flipping burgers at mcdonalds, go try flipping burgers at BK, or wendys, and if they all suck, LEARN A DIFFERENT SKILL or Trade right?
You dont DESERVE to drive a decent car, you should work hard to make enough money to buy a NICE car you can AFFORD.
I realize that despite my ambition, ill probably NEVER MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO OWN A FERRARI. Odds are supremely stacked against me. That doesnt mean i should hate my boss who owns 2.
Let's take advantage of the law and pay $7.25 because it's "legal" and we can get away from it. lol lol. again, business owners disgust me.
So, it's okay for companies to do what they want and get away with it? This is the reason this country would really go bad if a person like Romney wins the elections. lol
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Originally Posted by .blank cd
1. Wal-Mart employees dont do a job worth more than minimum wage. It is not an employers job to make sure they pay enough to support you, it is your job to make sure you come to the workforce with the skills that dictate your earnings can support you.
2. I would like to see proof that Exxon pays their American workers minimum wage.
You obviously dont know shit about me then. As the NCOIC of a shop while I was active duty, I didnt have a say in their wages but I took damn good care of my people. I also expected them to do their jobs and didnt take excuses as to why it wasnt done in the expected manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
In the free market people get paid what they are worth. Since you dont think minimum wage is enough for a bagger to make, what should he be making? $20/hr?
BTW, a $9/hr job is better than 18k a year. For someone just starting out in the workforce, that is pretty good money. Is it the employers fault you cant raise a family of 4 on an entry level job or it your fault for expecting to be able to? In 2001 my wife bought the house we currently live in while making $11/hr.
You really are an idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
Do you honestly think an licensed electrician is going to work for $7.35 an hour? How about an aeronautical engineer? No they arent. You know who is going to work for that though? The 16 y/o HS student in his first job. The 18y/o HS dropout with zero intelligence or ambition. Which group do you belong in?
what do you think minimum wage should be then? Answer truthfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
Minimum wage doesnt exist to LIVE ON, it exists as a basis for the lowest you can pay for a job, its exists for HS kids and people incapable of getting a better job. its a safety net
Why do you always like to turn this into two different arguments? You specifically asked to see ONE 500 company that pays their workers min wage. I showed you 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
And as a previous manager of a gas station, I can assure you any American corporate Exxon station pays their employees min wage or under $9/hr. Same with all of the other supermajor oil companies.
That might be more true if it weren't for the fact that when it was set up, you could actually LIVE on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
do you have business plans showing that they can profit from increased wages. What would be the total cost? Overhead impact? What about competition?Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
The $8 hour jobs arent supposed to be easy or GOOD, we dont want people in those jobs, we want people to hold those jobs until they move onto something better.
You want them to make $60k a year working mediocre general labor jobs............
you also realize that you just described massive inflation.
you can live on it now, just not very well. Which is fine, thats the way it is supposed to be. Minimum wage was $4.25 when i was in high school, that was 13 years ago, you couldnt live on that alone, times havent changed that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Minimum wage is not designed for people to LIVE ON, you really want a nation of people who only want to work for the MINIMUM PAYING WAGE?????
QT pays assistant managers $35,000 starting, up to mid 50s from what i have heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
QT isn't a supermajor. They buy their gas from other companies, and they're in the convenience business. QT, Racetrac, OTG.. They make their money from the shit you buy inside. None-the-less, starting out is around 8-9/hr.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
You were the one that said the companies paid their primary work for under $9 an hour. I granted you the retail places in which most of the jobs are stocking shelves and bagging purchases.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Are these corporate owned or franchises? Again, you are talking about idiots running a cash register. It is a job anyone in the world can do and doesnt call for anything but a minimum wage salary. Also, just because a job makes up a higher percentage of workers, doesnt make it the primary work force. The primary work force is the backbone of a company, in the case of the oil companies it would be the roughnecks or engineers. both of them make well over $9/hr.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd
Health benefits being related to an employer is an outdated relic that needs to go. Losing health care benefits is one of the top concerns for people who are thinking about quitting their corporate jobs and starting a business. It even creates further inefficiency in the labor market because many people are afraid to even switch to another corporate job due to changing health coverage. You can argue that people shouldn't worry about these things so much but the fact is that they do. Decouple health insurance from employment!
yeah, expecting the world to be independent and take care of themselves is madness. We need the government to take care of us all. Who cares that Obama is taking care of us with money that he doesnt have?Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
Sometimes hard and unpopular decisions need to be made. You cant just be cool like Obama all the time. Being president is a lot like being a parent. If you think your mom and dad are super cool..... theyre probably not raising you right. Parents have to say no sometimes and have to do things you dont like sometimes. You need to be independent. You cant just keep running up the credit card because it makes you happy. If you cant afford something, you cant have it, no matter how much you want it.
some business only pay people $7.25 an hour? If you dont like it, start your own business and pay everyone whatever you want to pay them. You have the freedom to do this, the same way the other business owners have the freedom to set their pay rates.
I'm all for that. I am also in favor of a la carte insurance plans in which you can pick your coverages like you do with your car insurance. The problem is that govt regulation has made that impossible. Because of govt mandated minimum coverages, a la carte plans are impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by bu villain
Jimmy- Yes, I have ambition. I have proved it over and over. I worked full time, and went to school fulltime (50 miles away, 100 miles roundtrip, 3 times a week) for 4 years, having jobs where I worked 40-60 hrs a week. I have a good job, and an education. But, I have seen myself at some of those minimum wage jobs prior to this. I can tell you, the work you do, the pressure you have, and the pace you are worked in is DEFINETELY worth more than $7/hr. These people may not do a job that is more important than yours, but they sure do work harder.
I worked at a bakery (sugarfoods which is a huge restaurant supplier) making $8 an hour from 4am to 3pm Monday-saturday. I had to bag 55 bags a minute and if you fell behind things would start falling on the floor. I literally got sore working there. My back hurted daily, my hands would cramp. Hell, I caught myself sweating most of the time. You think $8 is fair?
Employees would complain about it to managers, supervisors, etc... All they asked was for the speed to be reduced just a bit. Their answer was always; "We'd be losing money. It's a job, and you don't have to do it." I lol'ed at them when they told that to a few woman that worked there for years, who were already having back problems. I literally just wished I could somehow see him outside and not get in trouble with the law.
All this just proved that you guys worry about yourselves individually. You could care less if everyone else has a bad life as long as you have a good one. This is the mentality that makes the rich richer, the poor poorer, and the world the garbage we live in.
Jimmy- please don't compare $11 years ago, to $7.25 today. HELL of a difference.
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Originally Posted by nelson9995
So you think just because the job made you work hard it was worth more? It was still a brianless job anyone could do, therefore it doesnt pay anything. Get a job that requires even a minimum of brains and you get paid better.
If you didnt like the job, quit. No one forced you to work there.
The point is that for someone to make that money while living at home and going to school is perfectly doable.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
every person that is an AMERICAN citizen has the capacity to make themselves into anything they want to be. This is the land of opportunity but too many people would rather not have a purpose or drive in life and live in poverty because its the "easy way".. Why should I have sympathy for laziness? Why should I have to pay for others to be lazy and general bottom feeders?Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
Let's see how much fast food, bread, water, etc... you would be able to consume if these "slaves" weren't around. I bet you would go nuts if these "lazy" people weren't there to do what you guys won't do because it's for lazy, brainless people.
My point is, why should a CEO make billions/millions a year in profit while his employees are being exploited making $7.25? You guys are all for it. I'm not. I say screw the CEO and make him pay his employees a fair wage. He's still a millionaire and will continue to profit millions.
I'm not against being a business owner. I'm against the way they run things. My goal is to have my own business within the next 7 years, and make a difference. I can guarantee you that if I'm successfull, my workers will make decent money and be worked at a decent pace. If I have to sacrifice some of my profit while still being successfull and have a good life, I will. That's the way I am and was raised. The world would be a much better place if everyone had this mentality.
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Originally Posted by nelson9995
Now that you say that, I think we should raise the minimum wage to $40/hr. That way fast food drive throughs wont go unmanned. I dont know hwo they can keep them open now considering the 'slave' wages they pay for such demanding work.
$40? are you serious? lol. Come on dude, I never even came close to thinking an amount not even half of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanginJimmy
I would say $9-10. is a good minimum wage. Mcdonald's is a joke anyways. Managers make $8.25 in my town LOL.
People in Mcdonalds don't work as hard as people in factories making $8. This is what I mostly target.
After I got out of the military I worked in a small factory and I negotiated and went from $8/hr to $10/hr. I learned quickly why most of the people there were making that little money. Most were complete idiots and almost none of them had even a HS diploma.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
The simple fact is that you make what you deserve, and if you feel you should be making more, move on to another job where you do make more money.
The point he is trying to make is that the pay rates are what they are and there is no shortage of people applying for those jobs. So you think you're worth more than $8.25 at mcdonalds and quit. 15 more people apply the next day. Why should a CEO be forced to hire people at X amount when so many willingly volunteer to work for less and are happy to do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson9995
You cant judge your worth by how hard you work because labor isnt what is valuable and labor is easily replaced. If we're going to start paying people for how hard they work, then lets put doctors and lawyers at $10hr and start paying ditch diggers and road workers 500k a year.
My dad had a 72 chevelle that his dad gave him. He loved the car and never changed anything on it. He just drove it the way it was. One day it started spitting and sputtering and he couldnt figure out why. He took the car to the local chevy dealership and asked them to fix it. He expressed that the car was his dad's old car and that only the best mechanic that they had working there could work on it. They insured him that only their best man would touch the car. The dealership's head mechanic came out and listened to the car, pulled a screw driver out of his pocket, turned one screw on the carb and the car started running perfectly. Thrilled, my dad asked the mechanic what he owed. The mechanic said "$85.00". My dad responded "$85??? youre gonna charge me $85 for turning one screw????" the mechanic replied "No sir, i didnt charge you anything for turning the screw, i charged you $85 for knowing which screw to turn".
Nothing in this story is true..... but it makes my point. You dont get paid for working hard. You get paid for providing a service that others are incapable of or unwilling of doing themselves. The labor has no effect on the value of a service.
So, since its not about labor, and simply about skill, what do you think about paying teachers multi millions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfix_15
Teachers unions have blocked attempts for results based bonuses and raises for years. Unless you think all teachers are worth the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by .blank cd