K explain to me Obama's tax plan
Im a reagan conservative and believe in trickle-down "voodoo" economics.
I just want to know why anyone would think that "spreading the wealth around" like marxists will grow business? The very business being taxed to hell and cant employ more working class americans.
Empowering the lazy as well?
discuss
Dude this has been discussed a million times.Originally Posted by rrutter81
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Damn even repubs are tired of the crap.
Honestly its whatever, just get the election over with already.
so u agree with it?
havent seen the thread on it. Besides ive seen a hell of alot more repub bashing on "husein" obama smearing which has no substance.
Also Marx didnt believe in "spead the wealth," he believed in a classless society because in his theory the wealthy "bourgeoisie" tends to own the mode of production and exploit the lower class.
Its funny how people mash Karl Marx and Socialism together when the two are different ideologies.. but I guess thats what a lack of education does. Or public education as Boortz would put it? Marx was upper middleclass by the way.
I'll agree with you on the Hussein thing and the lack of substance. Do I agree with Obama's tax plan? I'm open to it, I don't perceive it as anything near Socialist though, I think that is very misleading.
No I don't agree with it. Obama some how thinks that taking in some cases up to 62% of a businesses income will help grow the economy and create jobs. He/ nor anybody else has been able to substantiate the claim that 98% of businesses don't make $250k.
And if you put aside the income tax issue there is still the increase on the payroll tax, the removal of the cap on social security, etc. which helps to account for that in some cases 62%.
Somebody made the comment that it would take 2.5 million in reciepts to make $250K. According to the outdated info that I have from 6 years ago at the time 22% of businesses had at least that much in reciepts.I'm still waiting for an explination on how he came to that conclusion.
If obama gets elected and enacts even half of the tax policies that he wants to enact you can expect unemployment to go up not down. Guranteed.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
I mean I'm technically against Obama's tax plan, but I'm not giving into the notion that it's going to destroy our economy anymore. No amount of taxing is ever going to stop people from trying to make money. I don't agree with what he wants to do, but he's about to be president so fuck it. RON PAUL FTW!
That was assuming a 10% profit margin, find how many businesses are doing $2.5 Million in receipts WITH a 10% profit margin.. that 22% drops even more.
The tax code that Obama is proposing is not far off from the tax code that Clinton put forth, want to know the major difference? Clinton taxed those making over $100k, not $250k. And unemployment during the 90's didn't seem to taper a whole lot then..
Until there is solid concrete proof by someone other than obama that only 2% of businesses(BTW Obama keeps flip floping from 2-5% so it seems even he is not sure of the actual number)are making that then I don't buy that it's that low. Not to mention he hasn't made it clear whether he's talking about gross or net. If it's net I would say somewhere around 15% is about right if he's talking gross then he is dead wrong.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
In the strictest form you are right.
However, giving welfare checks to people who dont pay taxes fails to see an end to laziness. I think we should have more opportunities in the country, not government handouts.
do i agree with taxing the upper class higher? To an extent yes.
250,000? no
500,000+ is a better number especially with the rampant inflation we are going to be hit with.
These are tax dollars i go toward the government. It is INCREDIBLY socialist to distribute my tax dollars for the betterment of our country for some lazy ass who cant get out and work. Id support it for maybe 3 months (average for unemployment) but not for years. Especially not for popping out a kid = pay raise.
this really intices me to become unemployed and suck up your tax dollars to fund my house while working "under the table". Marxism is similar, and any form of it has been shown to be utter failure. Look at Canada's and Britain's healthcare. Hell Britain made a law that you had to see someone within 4 hours of a patient coming in to ER. Thats how bad its gotten.
Everytime i see some sort of capitalism + marxism of any form i see epic failure. Look at our housing crisis. Instead of letting the free market determine who was able to get a loan for x amount of dollars they employed the Community Reinvestment Act, deregulated it to hell via ACORN, and cant point the finger at anyone short of the "greedy wallstreet investors" that the GOVERNMENT SOLD IT TO as a mortgage backed security.
I see more tampering = collapse of capitalism to be honest. same as how the soviet union went down when they couldnt "tax themselves in to fruition"
anyway thanks for the input. I think it looks good on paper, but like communism/socialism it doesnt work psychologically and employs laziness.
Exxon... 8.9%
5% of it is taxed by the government.
eg: if you paid 4.00 for gas exxon would make rougly what? .36? government half of that. Who is really gouging?
Explain this, when those making under $250k have more expendable income due to lower taxation and they are able to go into these so called struggling businesses to spend their money what is going to happen?
How do you propose we fund infrastructure for energy independence? Even the drill here drill now movement requires funding. We spend more in military than social programs, so if you really want to complain about where your tax dollars are going go protest outside of the pentagon.
This notion that the rich are handing their money over to the poor is absolute BS, to get this country headed in the right direction it takes responsible fiscal action but it also requires FUNDING.
Those who are lazy will be so under McCain's plan and they will be so under Obama's plan.. neither of them have the power to motivate people to get off their ass.. that is not the presidents job. TRUE income redistribution would be the government coming into your home, taking everything you own and dividing it up amongst society.. nothing Obama has proposed even comes close to that.
This is the only thought i agree with. But i think that you will attract more people "cheating" the system. Not everyone works on strict morales.
Unless the company cheats if what I have been reading is true 1 of two things would have to happen in order for them to stay at the same level of income they are at now.
1. Their sales would have to almost double
2. They would have to figure out a way to bring cost down tremendously.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
I ONLY WANT MY TAX dollars to go toward the military + keeping our currency in check. Its when you add the other B.S. i get ticked off. I will fund whatever is needed to keep our military #1. you cant have a country bombed, or jihaded by planes to be successful.
Yes it requires alot of fiscal responsibility, i agree. However im not seeing any conservatives get involved. I just see 57 trillion in liabilities obama is proposing. Keep in mind we only make what? 4.7 trillion GDP?
The bolded part is too extreme and we both know this. the half assed marxist method is being pushed. Obama is handing out "tax credits" (welfare) to people who dont even contribute to the country. Now how does that create jobs? McCain isnt giving out free lunches to the lazy. It is a political stunt to entice the "majority" of americans.
you forgot #3
"Pass it on to the consumers so we have to pay for it"
Just like in the 70s when they did the windfalls profits tax and made gas go over 5.00 a gallon
How is a lessened tax liability welfare? I just got to keep more of the money I worked for and thats a welfare program?
1/3 of americans dont pay income tax at all.....
they are getting the "tax credits" more than us. This isnt like the stimulus package where "if i paid taxes i get some back"
this is "here have some money because your a broke ass"
Sales would have to double even though expenditures have not? hmm.. doesn't sound right
What about the other 2/3 (the MAJORITY or working class) thats still welfare?
You are right, but , CLinton couldnt do his plan (and neither will OBama because unless he cuts MAJOR programs there just wont be any money)
CLinton raised taxes on everyone, across the board. Not just the rich.
I think the same thing will happen with Obama, i just dont see Bush leaving him alot of money he can really play with, especially if a second stimulus gets passed.
the Tax thing has been argued to DEATH. All we can agree on is that we disagree, and that we will have to see what happens and how it plays out.
Personally, i dont support Obamas tax plan, i disagree on the notion that we can "spread the wealth". I like the idea of tax breaks for people that create jobs in america. thats about it.
I am small business, no i dont make 250,000 a year. But, i want to, and i want to soon. What i see is that if you raise taxes on a person that is the one creating the jobs, you are costing him more money. The wealthy stay wealthy, so, they either A) pass the cost onto us which means higher prices for goods or B) people get laid off, or salaries decline.
Ive never been offered a job from a poor person. nor a raise.
Purpose of taxing is to raise revenue not give tax breaks to those that make less money.
We need to make the poor RICHER, not the RICH POORER.
Sidenote: The entire Election 2008 crew should hold a meet, a dinner,no matter who wins after nov 4th.
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
How about something a little more recent like when gas went trough the roof after 9/11 and the airlines passed it on to us.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
definitley not and i wasnt referring that to welfare.
If you contribute to our country, that is awesome. Have the "tax credit/rebate".
I dont agree with handing shit out to people who dont even contribute.
oh an im for the Fair TAx personally that would solve this whole arguement
Enterprise Data Resources- Ecommerce Project Manager
-www.usedbarcode.net
Good post and we all definitely need to get together.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
im for this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5UYNX_XGQA
/gas price problem
anyway thx for the debate, wish more dems would get in on this and hold some water. I do agree with what we all want.... but i disagree in the methods to attain it.
Last edited by rrutter81; 10-22-2008 at 07:55 PM.
Definitely have to agree to disagree. Now in all fairness, while people are up in arms about Obama's tax plan.. I wont lie his idea to raise minimum wage I am afraid of, I think that is more detrimental to an economy in a recession than his tax plan..
Usually I don't post this much on this subject but I'm about to take a test over Marxism and the economy so.. this kind of prepared me. I'll be back.
thx for having the :boobies: to post.
and yes....raising minimum wage is going to piss me off as well.... and raise prices more for the consumer. ugh its an ongoing deal.
gl on the test.
Many of those who don't pay income tax fit into the following groups:
Minimum wage earners
Full time students
work/study programs
etc
I was in a work/study program a couple years ago and the didn't withold any taxes on me. I paid into Social Security and FICA and that was it. I made about $6.75 an hour which even without taxes was barely enough to pay rent and buy groceries. Now I supervise people in the same program. Would I trade places with them and be back in the program... fawk no.
Also, for high school kids who work minimum wage jobs... why not give them a tax break and let them have a little more money to themselves? We surely aren't going to encourage unskilled/young people to work if we saddle them with a bunch of taxes. If we structure the tax code to where it is more profitable for people at the bottom to work then maybe more people will want to work.
And many of these programs Obama is proposing are meant to make us more economically competetive as a nation. One example is increased education funding/education reform. If we have a better educated workforce we will be more able to compete internationally.
again, i disagree with the methods.Many of those who don't pay income tax fit into the following groups:
Minimum wage earners
Full time students
work/study programs
etc
I was in a work/study program a couple years ago and the didn't withold any taxes on me. I paid into Social Security and FICA and that was it. I made about $6.75 an hour which even without taxes was barely enough to pay rent and buy groceries. Now I supervise people in the same program. Would I trade places with them and be back in the program... fawk no.
Also, for high school kids who work minimum wage jobs... why not give them a tax break and let them have a little more money to themselves? We surely aren't going to encourage unskilled/young people to work if we saddle them with a bunch of taxes. If we structure the tax code to where it is more profitable for people at the bottom to work then maybe more people will want to work.
And many of these programs Obama is proposing are meant to make us more economically competetive as a nation. One example is increased education funding/education reform. If we have a better educated workforce we will be more able to compete internationally.
How is taxing our employers to pass on to consumers going to make us more competant with other nations? It is our money we are giving to the government. The government doesnt create jobs out of thin air unless they are using the capitalist ideas of the private sector. Where is this money coming from to make us more "competant". Get my drift?
Government can only make as much as the GDP of our country allows. They just decide how much to take and what to do with it. Other countries are buying our assets like its the dollar tree right now (eg soveriegn wealth funds) and the like. We arent getting more money from the world because our government is taxing us more or less. Its on the american back's to push for better services than any other country.
I dont see obama or mccain holding up japan and saying "give me all your money or the clerk gets it".
dig?
Did you work in high school? If you did you would know you get all that money back just about.Many of those who don't pay income tax fit into the following groups:
Minimum wage earners
Full time students
work/study programs
etc
I was in a work/study program a couple years ago and the didn't withold any taxes on me. I paid into Social Security and FICA and that was it. I made about $6.75 an hour which even without taxes was barely enough to pay rent and buy groceries. Now I supervise people in the same program. Would I trade places with them and be back in the program... fawk no.
Also, for high school kids who work minimum wage jobs... why not give them a tax break and let them have a little more money to themselves? We surely aren't going to encourage unskilled/young people to work if we saddle them with a bunch of taxes. If we structure the tax code to where it is more profitable for people at the bottom to work then maybe more people will want to work.
And many of these programs Obama is proposing are meant to make us more economically competetive as a nation. One example is increased education funding/education reform. If we have a better educated workforce we will be more able to compete internationally.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Yeah, I did. I think its if you make under 5k or something like that you pay nothing. In the two years after HS though when I was working more I had some low paying jobs and I got taxed a few hundred.
And I know that the government doesn't create jobs but the public school system that uses government funds is the institution most accountable for preparing people to enter the workforce. If we are able to give young people a better education and teach them a little more citizenship and life-skills than we are now I think that would benefit employers by giving them a better educated, more productive workforce. The thing about education is that it is not necessarily more funding thats needed, its also a reform in teaching methods and curriculae. Cutting/reforming what doesn't work and adopting/expanding what does.
Right but then how do we give them a tax cut if they aren't paying any taxes.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
Why is it called welfare when you help poor and low middle class families? On the other hand, when a person who makes 2 million a year gets his taxes lowered it's called America. Jesus ..................
The people who dont ask for tax breaks get them. The people who need them dont get them, and when they do people rant and rave because of it. The majority of the middle class will benefit from Obama's tax plan, and they are the ones fighting back against it. Look at Joe the plumber( i know I hate to bring him back up ) he would benefit from obama being president right now, but he questions raising taxes on the rich. HE IS NOT RICH .........
Fair Tax FTMFW!!! Just makes since
Ballin' on a Budget
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