damn this shit got thick...
damn this shit got thick...
I'm not saying a believer can never become lost again. If someone chooses to turn their back to Him, then that's a different story. That is what these scriptures are targeting, those who not just make a mistake and fall into some sin, but those who have given up their cross and decide to continue to follow their flesh.
My arguement of salvation applies to those who are true believers who are not turning their back to Christ, but still struggle (which no one can deny happens). Not to say what you posted was unnecessary, but maybe I wasn't clear on my arguement. I completely agree with what you posted. If you turn your back to him, all that you mentioned should apply.
Saul turned his back to God, which explains everything. I should not be concered with losing my salvation, even through my struggles, if I always turn to Christ.
Romey you are great!
Who do you think?Originally Posted by Xan
If you CHOOSE a course of action that leads to negative results, who is to blame? If you cheat on your spouse, get busted, have to go to court, lose custody of your children etc etc...whos fault is that? YOURS!
Many things happen because of what people CHOOSE.
Some "negative" or "bad" things that happen are nothing more then the result of sin. Sin causes death and destruction...of human beings, environments, etc etc.
Most things that are considered "acts of god" are not...they are results of sin.
Nice doubletalk.
The Bible says CLEARLY a believer can become lost again. Saul did just that. Perhaps its not something youve understood or been taught and you dont yet fully accept it... thats fine. Thats your choice.
I never said you should be "concerned with losing your salvation"....I said that God has provided a way out of sin. Everyone struggles...primarily with giving up DOING THEIR OWN WILL.Saul turned his back to God, which explains everything. I should not be concered with losing my salvation, even through my struggles, if I always turn to Christ.
The Bible teaches that people continuing in willful sin will not be saved.
It doesnt teach that God abandons those who "struggle". On the contrary, it teaches that God is there and HE will do all the work IF you let Him, IF you SEEK Him, IF you follow His Word, IF you submit your will to Him.
IF you truly turn to Christ you wont keep on sinning the same sins over and over and over and over....its just a matter of that IF.
Thats the complete gospel...as opposed to the common false version taught in many churches that says in essense...just keep sinning and don't worry...because Jesus died for you. Jesus also LIVED for you and will live IN you.
So who would the blame for the 04 tsunami fall onto? whose to blame if lightning strikes your house? Whose to blame if you slip and fall down a flight of stairs and break both legs? I'm not going to give anything caused by another person because that's "sin effecting the environment." Where does the environment alone effecting you fall under?Who do you think?
If you CHOOSE a course of action that leads to negative results, who is to blame? If you cheat on your spouse, get busted, have to go to court, lose custody of your children etc etc...whos fault is that? YOURS!
Many things happen because of what people CHOOSE.
Some "negative" or "bad" things that happen are nothing more then the result of sin. Sin causes death and destruction...of human beings, environments, etc etc.
Most things that are considered "acts of god" are not...they are results of sin.
Sin = decay
God said everything would die/decay if sin was committed....it was...so there you go.
Our entire environment is out of wack causing all manner of earthly problems.
And...I have already given the answer to your questions.
To be even more specific, satan is the prince of this world...he seeks to devour humans and destroy them...he causes all manner of destruction.
Like I said at the very beginning....WHO do you think causes evil things??
I understand your meaning. However, I don't see how an act of nature can be defined as "good" or "evil." Earthquakes, tsunamis, meteor impacts: All of these have been occuring since before the time of man. Am I to believe it is Satan causing these natural phenomena to happen?Sin = decay
God said everything would die/decay if sin was committed....it was...so there you go.
Our entire environment is out of wack causing all manner of earthly problems.
And...I have already given the answer to your questions.
To be even more specific, satan is the prince of this world...he seeks to devour humans and destroy them...he causes all manner of destruction.
Like I said at the very beginning....WHO do you think causes evil things??
Could have sworn I just agreed with you before you posted. Also, re-read the part where I said I didn't make myself clear in the beginning. I understand it and accept it, I just think you were thinking I was saying something else.Nice doubletalk.
The Bible says CLEARLY a believer can become lost again. Saul did just that. Perhaps its not something youve understood or been taught and you dont yet fully accept it... thats fine. Thats your choice.
I completely agree, and should add that it's not just to turn to him, but to commit to him.
I agree with this as well, and do not believe that you can do what you want and think you can get into heaven. I'm by no means calvinisic.
I think you thought that I was saying that no matter what you do you can't lose your salvation, partly because I didn't go into depth about who this effects and stipulations.
As you agreed, the faithful Christian that allows God to continue to uncover their sin and so on will be saved, though they're found with sin, struggle and stumble on occassion. That is why I said "once saved always saved" because I was speaking of such a Christian. When God uncovers more sin in my life, I'm not unsaved again, which is what my point was.
So in essence, I think we both agree on this topic. I should just watch how I used the term "once saved always saved"...maybe be more clear about it.
More on this topic from the Bible....
Romans 6
The Bible….
1.What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
In plain english….
So, will we keep on breaking Gods Laws because of Gods abundant grace??
Why absolutley NOT! How can we that have been born again into NEW life continue to live in our old life??
Have you forgotten that we all were baptized, and by doing so were putting off that old life of sin?
And that after that bastism and death of our old life we are to be raised up by the power of the Father to walk a new life?
The Bible….
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
In plain english….
If your old life is truly dead, and you have been ressurected into a new life, your sinfull life is destroyed so that after you NEED NOT continue to break Gods laws.
The Bible….
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
In plain english…..
You should die but once to your old life of lawlessness…then live for Christ because sin and death have no power over you if you serve God
Be dead to your old life of sin, be alive to serve God through the power of Jesus Christ
The Bible….
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
In english….
Don’t let law breaking (sin) be in charge of your body and actions OR you will keep sinning.
Don’t give over your actions to lawlessness BUT instead YEILD your WILL to God as one who has been resurrected from that old life of sin, and your actions will be in keeping with Gods laws and word.
The Bible…
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
In english…..
Lawless behaviour shall NOT have power over you because we are under Gods abundant grace
So then, will we continue breaking Gods laws because of that grace??? Absolutely NOT!
The Bible…..
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
In english….
Whomever/whatever you obey is your master…whether that be lawbreaking and sin, which leads to death, OR obedience (law keeping) which leads to life.
Thank God we USED to be servants of lawlessness and sin BUT have obeyed Gods explicit words/doctrine by doing so are made FREE from sinning continuously and now serve God and keep His laws.
The Bible…..
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
In english…..
You used allow sinfull living and lawlessness to reign, therby comitting the same sins over and over, BUT NOW you allow God/righteousness to reign leading to keeping Gods principles…HOLINESS.
When you were servants of self/sin, you had NO righteousness, you couldn’t do right, and of those things youused to do you are now ashamed because they only lead to eternal death.
But NOW since you are free from lawbreaking and sin and serve God, your actions are righteous and holy and lead to eternal life.
The end result of SINNING is DEATH
The gift of God is righteous LIVING through the power of Jesus Christ.
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