GREAT!! Movie: the truth about pitbulls (not for weak stomach'd people)

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Originally Posted by nautiboi73

irritable, short tempered and have a syndrome? Where do you get this things? Personal experience or myths?

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You totally misunderstood, but it looks like you got it down below.

TERRIERS, the majority of which are NOT PITS or Amstaffs and are usually rather small in stature, DO in fact posses those traits that I listed. So therefore it stands to conclude that just like the good, the Pit breed will also inherit the bad traits of the Terriers. Difference is, like my analogy of BB gun vs 357 magnum, small Terriers couldn't put down a grown man where even a half grown Pit easily could if motivated enough.

You are still glossing over my point which I've made abundantly clear. If you don't agree with it, say that. Don't gloss over it though. It's very simple. A full grown half healthy Pit can inflict a ton of damage if and when it decides to and YOU or noone else can do much about it. Now, a wimpy ass yap yap dog can TRY all it wants but in reality it can't do much damage even if it TRIED. Can a German Shepperd do it too? Sure. Can a Rot? Of course. Problem is that the Pit's natural perpensity and genetics make it more dangerous because of unscrupulous breeding than other breeds brings out and accents those traits.

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Terriers in general are very well tempted pets. Including the APBT and Amstaffs. They were breed this way from the beginning. Now small dog have a syndrome, and are ill tempered. Most Large dog, again in general, are gentle with humans and other dogs for that matter.

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That's what I was trying to tell you before. The majority of Terriers are not PIts, but are much smaller examples. Therefore, just like I said above, the Pits will inherit (sometimes) some of those traits. Again, the big difference is that if a Pit decides to play dominant role, IT CAN. Problem is that if a Pit decides to lose it's temper, IT CAN.

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I can’t comment on your “sissy ass Schnauzer” :lol

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Trust me, that dog is here under protest from me. It's the wife's. He gets outside with my big mutts that are 3x's his size and he starts to growling at them and acting like the Alpha. My 90 lb Lab and my 50 lb Lab back down from his bluffing ass of all of 20 lbs. Go figure. But if I just look at him wrong, he literally pisses himself :rolleyes: .

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but any dog with teeth can kill. There are reports of babies being killed by jealous tea cup poodles and other toy breeds. Babies are humans right? Well that is where I get the NO Breed can claim Asylum from a human death.

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I'd love to see it. I've held a real Tea Cup poodle literally in the palm of my hand, so I find it almost impossible for it to be able to hurt anything. Post a link because I'm very curious about that.

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So any dog can kill. The question is their motive, and desire. So give the right motive and a strong enough desire your “sissy ass schnauzer” could harm you if he felt the drive and had the motive. Now I hope that never happens and more than likely it will not.

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Well, he growled at my son ONCE..... ;) After he and I reached an "understanding", he's not done it again...... ;)

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Against a pit and have zero chance? Well against 90% of any medium to large breed, he may not have a chance. So to single out the Pit is not justified, in that scenario.

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I agree. I'm not singling out the Pit alone, except for the purposes of this discussion. Like I said, I wouldn't leave my kids near any dog that has the potential to hurt them. Be it a Pit, German Shepperd, Rot, Boa Constrictor, or anything they couldn't defend themselves against. So, I agree with you.

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Yea like being hit by a tricycle and being hit by a train, right or wrong? Yea there is a big difference and yea one is more likely to cause serious harm then the other, but the APBT is not the largest dog by far, go analogy, bad application IMO. In that scenario you only take size into play where there are other things such as drive, will, location of the bite, shot, that play a major role in the outcome.

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Yes, but remember that for the purpose of this discussion we are only referring to the Pits. I've admitted and agreed with you that there are other dogs that can be just as dangerous. It's not always about size necessarily, but for comparo purposes.....the Pit does present more of a threat than say a Shitzu, right? Well, many many people have been ankle biten by Shitzu's. As a matter of fact, small little yap yap dogs like that like to be ankle biters and do like to nip at little kids a lot. My point is NOT that Pits are the most prolific biters. My point is that WHEN they do, their physical/psychological/genetic traits make it a very powerful weapon when it's fired. So therefore, it is prudent and smart for people to give respect to those facts.

Should the Pit have the rep it does? I think there's no way now to reverse that.

Should Pits be banned? I don't think so personally.

Are all Pits bad? No.

How can you tell? THAT's the hard part. You can have the most docile Pit in the world and then suddenly it snaps for some reason and things happen.

Look, don't take my debate personally. Like I said, I think the breed is a beautiful breed. IF I had no kids, I'd would think about owning one because I am partial to big powerful dogs. But as a parent, I can't afford to make a mistake of that magnitude. So, don't think for a minute I'm trying to bad mouth you or your choice of dog. I'm just airing out my opinion out loud.

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Originally Posted by tracy

I feel sick! Really. I love animals so much. I can't believe anyone would do that to an animal.



I think that every dog has the potential to bite. I don't hold it against any of them. They're animals. They don't speak. You can't tell them it's ok (I mean you can, but they don't speak english. I think they recognize tone of voice for the most part). They can't make their own decisions for the most part, their owners do it for them.

Brandon's dog never bit anyone (he's not a pit. he's some kind of mut :)) until he bit me! I have known the dog for 5 years. He has been at my shop everyday for almost 4. He bit me when Dan and I were play fighting...hard as hell. I had a bruise the size of 2 baseballs for like a month. It was like an instinct. I could tell he didn't mean it. As soon as he did it he knew it was wrong. He ran and hid and wouldn't come near me for like 3 weeks. I don't hold it against him. I'm just naturally a little more careful about what I do around him.

I guess my point in telling about Brandon's dog is that any dog can bite you at anytime for any reason. I'm pretty sure it's not brand (:)) specific. It's the risk we as humans take when we deal with an animal...period. I don't think they should die for it. They didn't ask to be brought into our homes and play with us and our children. They don't have that voice.

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sorry to hear about your bite. but the dog instincts where to Protect the Pack. you where figthing with the Alpha for all he knew and instinct told him to stop you. once he saw that the Alpha was not in danger he felt guilt and sorry for what he did. I am sure that the will lick you and make up soon enoguh.

I'm glad you saw it as human error and not evil dog. :bigok:

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Originally Posted by nautiboi73

sorry to hear about your bite. but the dog instincts where to Protect the Pack. you where figthing with the Alpha for all he knew and instinct told him to stop you. once he saw that the Alpha was not in danger he felt guilt and sorry for what he did. I am sure that the will lick you and make up soon enoguh.

I'm glad you saw it as human error and not evil dog. :bigok:

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I know he's not evil. I love him. He's the sweetest and smartest dog I have ever met. Dan and I were play fighting and everyone was telling him to get me and he did for once. :eek: We had actually played that game before with the dog...for years as a matter of fact. Usually he would just bark and act like he was going to do something...until this time :eye:

We made up already, it was like 5 months ago.

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Originally Posted by nautiboi73

sorry to hear about your bite. but the dog instincts where to Protect the Pack. you where figthing with the Alpha for all he knew and instinct told him to stop you. once he saw that the Alpha was not in danger he felt guilt and sorry for what he did. I am sure that the will lick you and make up soon enoguh.

I'm glad you saw it as human error and not evil dog. :bigok:

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Exactly my point as a vivid real life example.

Tracy KNEW this dog. She was around this dog for YEARS. Never a problem, until something seemingly small happened and the dog turned. Up until that point, she'd not give the dog a second thought about biting. I bet it's slightly different now, even though she clearly understands and doesn't blame the dog per se. She now KNOWS it's capable of biting HER, right?

Like I said, had that been a full grown Pit.....do you think her bruise would have been smaller or bigger or God forbid worse? THAT is my point.

The dog acted instinctively. It really couldn't control itself and under 99.9% of other situations it would've not done a thing. But that .1 time is the one that hurts.

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

I tend to agree with you, but how do you explain those dogs that have been with the same owner their entire life with the owner NEVER mistreating the dog and then it suddenly turns on it's owner unexpectedly. We've all read about case after case of exactly that. How about that dog that turns on a child which it had always played with it's entire life?



How about dogs that have spent YEARS in training, such as Police dogs? Those dogs are TRAINED on how to do things even in the worst of situations. Even those dogs have turned on their handlers or innocent bystanders EVENTHOUGH all their training was taught otherwise. Where'd that come from? GENETICS. INSTINCTS. These are domesticated ANIMALS. Some more ANIMALS than others. YOU nor I can EVER take away the genetic disposition of ANY animal. EVER. It's that simple. The question is are you or anyone else exposed to ANY given animal going to have the ability to defend itself against it should it turn on you for WHATEVER reason. If the answer is NO, then you HAVE to prudently be weary of that animal regardless. You'd be a fool not to. If you can defend yourself against it, then there should be no fear IMO. Is that not logical enough to you?



Look, I'm a big animal lover, especifically a large dog lover. So I totally understand you having strong feelings about your particular dog. Yours may be the greatest Pit ever. I really hope he is. I'm just saying that I'll go around a Pit that I feel safe around and those that I don't I would avoid. I'm also saying that as a PARENT, I wouldn't let my children around a PIT or any other large dog w/o ME being there to protect them in case of an accident. Why? Because of all the reasons I've given above. If you or anyone else doesn't CHOOSE to make the same decisions for YOUR family, that's fine. I understand completely. Just don't look down on me for being protective. After all, I'm not walking around with a gun killing pits or advocating anyone to do so.

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I tend not to go along with the never mistreat a dog and it turns on owner.

Reason, there is always a reason, even if it is unknown to us.

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Originally Posted by http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html

“Pit Bulls ‘turn’ on their owners.” Dogs, as a species, do not perform behaviors “just because”. There are always reasons for behavior, and when aggression becomes a problem the reasons can be such things as improper handling, lack of socialization or training, a misreading of dog behavior by the owner, or, rarely, disease. Aggression, when it presents in pet dogs, follows specific patterns. First occur warning signs, then more warning signs, and finally, when those signs are continually ignored or misinterpreted, the dog resorts to using its teeth. When an owner is startled by a sudden, aggressive outburst, it is because they have been unaware of problems that were brewing. This is true of all dogs, not just Pit Bulls. Pit Bulls, indeed no dogs, “turn” on their owners.

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Instinct what a wonderful little trait. You know the best part about Instinct. You can learn it, and use it. Sad, although true, NOTHING and no one is perfcet. So even a trained dog, if stressed, neglected or for any reason can have a breakdown and lose track of the job at hand, so to speak.



Oh I don’t have any hard feelings toward you or your comments. But I have a personal investment in educating anyone about dog in general not just my breed. I can see your views and your concern about your family, and don’t look down on anyone. Just speaking my mind, that’s all.



I hope that no one is walking around with a gun killing any dog.

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

Exactly my point as a vivid real life example.

Tracy KNEW this dog. She was around this dog for YEARS. Never a problem, until something seemingly small happened and the dog turned. Up until that point, she'd not give the dog a second thought about biting. I bet it's slightly different now, even though she clearly understands and doesn't blame the dog per se. She now KNOWS it's capable of biting HER, right?

Like I said, had that been a full grown Pit.....do you think her bruise would have been smaller or bigger or God forbid worse? THAT is my point.

The dog acted instinctively. It really couldn't control itself and under 99.9% of other situations it would've not done a thing. But that .1 time is the one that hurts.

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It was a lot more than a bruise (the bruise just stayed for a loooong time). He broke the skin. That's neither here nor there :)

I hear everyone's point....I just wanted to say that it could happen with any dog IMO. Not just Pitt's.

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Originally Posted by nautiboi73

so not just my speculation but Dr. Brisbin’s thoughts on the subject.

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Actually if you read the whole thing again you'll see he is saying the same thing I was.

He says that even if you were able to measure it and get a dog to bite on command, you couldn't CONCLUDE that was a particular breed's most powerful bites because of all the other variables that go into a conclusion like that.

That's the same thing I said. You CAN measure it, but you can't conclude a "winner" of strongest bite so therefore the assumption that Pits are the "most powerful" biters is in fact not founded.

I didn't say they were the most powerful....I just said they are powerful. I think you would agree with that statement, right?

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

You totally misunderstood, but it looks like you got it down below.

TERRIERS, the majority of which are NOT PITS or Amstaffs and are usually rather small in stature, DO in fact posses those traits that I listed. So therefore it stands to conclude that just like the good, the Pit breed will also inherit the bad traits of the Terriers. Difference is, like my analogy of BB gun vs 357 magnum, small Terriers couldn't put down a grown man where even a half grown Pit easily could if motivated enough.

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most terriers are as large as pits. Pit range in size for 30lbs to 70lbs depending on breeding so what size are you talking about in general?
http://www.akc.org/breeds/terrier_group.cfm

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

You are still glossing over my point which I've made abundantly clear. If you don't agree with it, say that. Don't gloss over it though. It's very simple. A full grown half healthy Pit can inflict a ton of damage if and when it decides to and YOU or noone else can do much about it. Now, a wimpy ass yap yap dog can TRY all it wants but in reality it can't do much damage even if it TRIED. Can a German Shepperd do it too? Sure. Can a Rot? Of course. Problem is that the Pit's natural perpensity and genetics make it more dangerous because of unscrupulous breeding than other breeds brings out and accents those traits.

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BUt I am not talking aobut a illbreed dog. I am talking about the True APBT. not a misbreed mut of a dog, yes those dogs are unstable as wiht many misbreed breeds, but I am focusing on the nature of an avaege full blooded APBT.
OK my take on that is that German Sheppered , ROtties, Schnazers and other dogs were Breed for protection, ie to bite a human.. they were breed for this purpose. well in teh APBT history, thery were never breed for this purpose.

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AKC Breeds by Group
Terrier Group

People familiar with this Group invariably comment on the distinctive terrier personality. These are feisty, energetic dogs whose sizes range from fairly small, as in the Norfolk, Cairn or West Highland White Terrier, to the grand Airedale Terrier. Terriers typically have little tolerance for other animals, including other dogs. Their ancestors were bred to hunt and kill vermin. Many continue to project the attitude that they're always eager for a spirited argument. Most terriers have wiry coats that require special grooming known as stripping in order to maintain a characteristic appearance. In general, they make engaging pets, but require owners with the determination to match their dogs' lively characters.

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TO HUNT AND KILL VERMIN... not to harm humans at all but work along side man. so Genetics would not play a role what so ever in the breed being dangerious to humans. ill-breeding, mistreatment, neglect and other things do.

I can't move past hearing you say in short " they are born dangerious".

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Originally Posted by nautiboi73

most terriers are as large as pits. Pit range in size for 30lbs to 70lbs depending on breeding so what size are you talking about in general?
http://www.akc.org/breeds/terrier_group.cfm

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You may want to look at your link a little closer.

If you do, you will see that even according to the AKC, the biggest dogs are the Pits and it's cousins the Amstaffs.

Check out each one individually. The standards are listed. Most of the terrier group are between 12-20 lbs. The Pits are up to 38 lbs. and we both know that's a small Pit.

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

That's what I was trying to tell you before. The majority of Terriers are not PIts, but are much smaller examples. Therefore, just like I said above, the Pits will inherit (sometimes) some of those traits. Again, the big difference is that if a Pit decides to play dominant role, IT CAN. Problem is that if a Pit decides to lose it's temper, IT CAN.

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any animal with free will CAn.

but we have to look at the probability of that happening. With the wrong owner yea any dog can assume a dominate role. Shit I have seen birds assume a dominate role. So can it happen of course. With proper breeding and the right owner, doubtful.

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

Yes, but remember that for the purpose of this discussion we are only referring to the Pits. I've admitted and agreed with you that there are other dogs that can be just as dangerous. It's not always about size necessarily, but for comparo purposes.....the Pit does present more of a threat than say a Shitzu, right? Well, many many people have been ankle biten by Shitzu's. As a matter of fact, small little yap yap dogs like that like to be ankle biters and do like to nip at little kids a lot. My point is NOT that Pits are the most prolific biters. My point is that WHEN they do, their physical/psychological/genetic traits make it a very powerful weapon when it's fired. So therefore, it is prudent and smart for people to give respect to those facts.

Should the Pit have the rep it does? I think there's no way now to reverse that.

Should Pits be banned? I don't think so personally.

Are all Pits bad? No.

How can you tell? THAT's the hard part. You can have the most docile Pit in the world and then suddenly it snaps for some reason and things happen.

Look, don't take my debate personally. Like I said, I think the breed is a beautiful breed. IF I had no kids, I'd would think about owning one because I am partial to big powerful dogs. But as a parent, I can't afford to make a mistake of that magnitude. So, don't think for a minute I'm trying to bad mouth you or your choice of dog. I'm just airing out my opinion out loud.

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you keep putting the APBT up agisnt ill 5 pounders :)

it is just that a debate. we :bigok: no matter..

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

Exactly my point as a vivid real life example.

Tracy KNEW this dog. She was around this dog for YEARS. Never a problem, until something seemingly small happened and the dog turned. Up until that point, she'd not give the dog a second thought about biting. I bet it's slightly different now, even though she clearly understands and doesn't blame the dog per se. She now KNOWS it's capable of biting HER, right?

Like I said, had that been a full grown Pit.....do you think her bruise would have been smaller or bigger or God forbid worse? THAT is my point.

The dog acted instinctively. It really couldn't control itself and under 99.9% of other situations it would've not done a thing. But that .1 time is the one that hurts.

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but are we faulting the dog or human error?

that was fun, well teh wife is calling to to leave this thread







for now.

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Originally Posted by nautiboi73

OK my take on that is that German Sheppered , ROtties, Schnazers and other dogs were Breed for protection, ie to bite a human.. they were breed for this purpose. well in teh APBT history, thery were never breed for this purpose.

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See now you are doing what you say people do with Pits....misinformation.

Show me where it shows here that German Shepperds were bred for the purpose of biting people:
http://www.akc.org/breeds/herding_group.cfm

The description of your dog also states that it too is protective, so does that mean it too is "bred" to bite humans then?????

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I can't move past hearing you say in short " they are born dangerious".

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So now you're saying the bad breeders breed "good" pups? Would you buy a Pit out of a puppy mill? IF Pits didn't have built in perpensities to attack other dogs or anything it decided to attack, why is it that it's just about the exclusive breed chosen and bred to fight for money? If German Shepperds or Rots or even diminuitive Schnauzers were so able as Pits to purposely inflict damage, WHY are they NOT chosen to fight for money?

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Originally Posted by nautiboi73

but are we faulting the dog or human error?

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Neither, my point was that had it been a pissed off Pit she would of likely been hurt worse than she was.

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

So now you're saying the bad breeders breed "good" pups? Would you buy a Pit out of a puppy mill? IF Pits didn't have built in perpensities to attack other dogs or anything it decided to attack, why is it that it's just about the exclusive breed chosen and bred to fight for money? If German Shepperds or Rots or even diminuitive Schnauzers were so able as Pits to purposely inflict damage, WHY are they NOT chosen to fight for money?

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I thought we went over that that APBT is a terrier and has terrier traits and with that typically have little tolerance for other animals, including other dogs. Attack? is not the word that I would ue because that is not a trait, attack is an action. This is not the only dog that has been chosen to fight, a popular one yes, but not only. and the sad part about why they are chosen is because of their drive and willingness to please their owner. An APBT will literally die to please their owner. They have a strong will not to let go of a bite also. But inflict as much damage? That is not the sole purpose of a dog fight anyway, it is more about the dogs will and drive not to quit, no matter how much it it injured. sad as it may be but it was a sport and had rules that governed it.

[color=black]

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Originally Posted by [/color

tracy]

I hear everyone's point....I just wanted to say that it could happen with any dog IMO. Not just Pitt's.

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exactly.

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Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

Neither, my point was that had it been a pissed off Pit she would of likely been hurt worse than she was.

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Jaime, that focus on it being a "pit" it the wrong focus. your statement would be much better off reading

"if had it been a pissed off DOG she would of likely been hurt worse than she was"



to use the "Pit” a s a form of measurement is IMO the problem at it root. The “pit” is not a form of how dangerous a dog is, it is not the measure of how bad a bite can be, it is not the measure of how bad a dog can be, it is not the measure for how tough the owner is, it is not a measure of anything, it is just a Dog.

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Originally Posted by tracy

It was a lot more than a bruise (the bruise just stayed for a loooong time). He broke the skin. That's neither here nor there :)

I hear everyone's point....I just wanted to say that it could happen with any dog IMO. Not just Pitt's.

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thats what i said also ..

fucking awesome...the best thing about this is, I'm getting a pitbull puppy tomorrow and i can't wait :D

i just got a pitbull puppy a month or 2 ago ..i have 2 dogs..1 is a chow/terrior mix and the other is my pitbull puppy..and from what ive seen so far she is way more obidient than the chow..she learns fast and listens when she is told what to do..great dogs if treated right

I didnt bring this up for people to get in a riff about. I know QD, Brett, and I discussed this subject to great length.. my point of the video was simply this: "Dont judge a pit just because its a pit" Now saying that yes, I completely understand why alot of people are weary of pits, dobies, and rotties and they have every right to be. There are many "kinds of pitbulls".. Everything from an American Bulldog to a Staffordshire Terrier can be mistaken for a pitbull. Pitbulls are from the terrier group, and they are stubborn as all hell, and after years of talking to the vets I previously worked for, pits; terriers in general love to establish dominance, and when they feel like thier place they have established has been compramised, they will make sure that they prove they belong in that place of dominance. Every breed of dog has their own trait. Most people get labs and retrievers as family dogs for kids, assuming all of them are sweet and cuddly like you see on every tv show, but they all arn't. The vast majority is.. but not all. Im just saying that pits CAN BE very good dogs if brought up correctly, but like QD mentioned they are still dogs. ANY DOG could snap simply because they are bred from the wild dog and they still have that wild instinct somewhere in there brain.

^^^exactly^^^


my west highland terrier bites anyone if you come close to my mom....especially at night time...so it's not just pits

i'd have to agree and just say it's terriers in general
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...a/IMAG0003.jpg

i just got my pit yesterday...great