Scripture a day (Islam Edition)

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Care to offer a thought as conclusive as one of these Blank???

hmmm....... can you define hypocrisy for me? i know you're all big on correct definitions.

Could you also quote the part where I said Christianity is filth?

[Sinfix_15]

This is definitely one of your best responses.
So, basically, if you hang out with a Muslim, you are guilty by association then? Oops, you said that you have active Muslim friends. Have you told them that they are evil just for being Muslim yet? Have you told them that they are "walking advertisements for a evil organization"? How did they respond to that?

I dont badger them, but theyre aware that i question their beliefs. I think questioning in general is healthy. Most reasonable people do not reject questioning. My friend at work reminds me of Geoff from this sight. He always makes his best attempt to answer the questions and engages in an open debate. My friends are the same way, sometimes they come back with a valid counter and sometimes they admit they dont understand. Overall it's a healthy debate and both sides are aware that they are opposing beliefs. They are more than aware that i do not endorse their religions. My sense of humor doesnt read well, i'm a little more charming in person.

I grew up around some KKK members. They weren't really concerned about race, they talked a lot about the federal government taking over states' rights though, and argued for smaller federal government. I guess that kind of talk made them evil though, right? That's just a sidebar, don't worry about it.

No, those beliefs do not make them evil. You help my claim in saying that "not all KKK members were bad" even though the KKK itself is indefensible. It was the whole part about not thinking black people were human beings with rights that made the KKK bad, not their political beliefs.

So, you believe that religious tolerance is a bad thing now..... at least, that is what it sounds like you are communicating....

Religious tolerance is not a bad thing, its a dangerous thing. The right path is not always the easy path. Being tolerant of outside religions opens a lot of doors for evil to infiltrate our society. It creates a certain level of danger. We accept this danger in the name of doing the right thing. I was joking when i used batman as an example, but that's a good example. Batman's job is more dangerous because he does it the right way. It would have been a lot easier to just shoot everyone up.

I find it interesting that you believe that this group of people keeps their "grand scheme to deceive" hidden for multiple generations, raising their children in western countries, and to live their entire lives within western cultures. I know quite a few Muslims that were born and raised in the US, and this "truth" that you seem to know has been completely hidden from them. Why would the Muslims hide this "truth" from their own children?
The ones that I have met surely seem to embrace the American way of life.

Not every piece on the board is a knight, some are just pawns. I dont believe the ones who embrace the american way of life are following the scripture as it was intended. That is a compliment to them. My question is why do they continue to claim affiliation to islam.... is it because they like the bon fires?

Have you heard of the "Ramadan Rush"? Tons of rich Arabs descend on London during the summer, racing their supercars around the streets, and living like westerners. They party in clubs, and basically break a lot of the rules. What does Islam have to gain by this behavior?

I could argue that it's a display of masculinity. This is a common practice throughout Islam. It's a male dominant religion and a lot of it involves gamesmanship and grandstanding. It's easier to paint these actions as mockery than it is to say theyre embracing western culture. Sharia law also permits "breaking the rules" to deceive infidels.

So, you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but Islam forces them to be bad? You are a good person without religion, but they are automatically bad because they have a religion?

I didnt say theyre automatically bad.... the "good muslims" are the "KKK members who just like bon fires"

[Sinfix_15]

Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?

I agree blank, more than half of the Koran speaks ill will of those who do not believe in Islam. why worship a deity who is evil and jealous. If god created the world, why did he put all of the muslims right slam in the middle of earth's asshole where millions of people are damned to death, slavery and turmoil.

This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.


If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell

I agree with you blank, no matter how many women Muslims torture, rape and disfigure, they are permitted to do so by their religion. If i have to enjoy my 72 virgins in heaven with a bunch of rapists, murders and pedophiles, i think i will take my chances in hell.

So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?


The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?


So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.


You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.

I agree blank, since beheading, disfigurement, slavery and pedophilia was the norm back then it was ok?? You cant turn your back on the will of Allah, the Koran lays it out perfectly clear.

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Poor attempt in turning those quotes into something I didnt say.

[Sinfix_15]

Poor attempt in turning those quotes into something I didnt say.

LOL that is EXACTLY what you said.................


Everything i say about Islam, you have said about Christianity. quit being a hypocrite for God's sake.



So do you feel as strongly about Islam as you do about Christianity? Both Deities are equally as fictional and evil?

You already said you chose hell over christian heaven.

do you also chose hell over 72 virgins in heaven?

[Sinfix_15]

Gods warriors

hmmm...

[David88vert]

I dont badger them, but theyre aware that i question their beliefs. I think questioning in general is healthy. Most reasonable people do not reject questioning. My friend at work reminds me of Geoff from this sight. He always makes his best attempt to answer the questions and engages in an open debate. My friends are the same way, sometimes they come back with a valid counter and sometimes they admit they dont understand. Overall it's a healthy debate and both sides are aware that they are opposing beliefs. They are more than aware that i do not endorse their religions. My sense of humor doesnt read well, i'm a little more charming in person.

To me, that sounds much more reasonable that your earlier statements. Of course, I agree that questioning is not a bad thing.

No, those beliefs do not make them evil. You help my claim in saying that "not all KKK members were bad" even though the KKK itself is indefensible. It was the whole part about not thinking black people were human beings with rights that made the KKK bad, not their political beliefs.

I think that your use of the KKK argument was definitely a solid and rational point.

There's only one problem - one of the people that they hung out with during these discussions was an old black man. They didn't seem to have any problems with respecting his opinion, and certainly didn't see him as a "lesser man" (granted that he was the only black man in their group, and not a member as far as I know). So, where were they evil/bad/terrible?

Religious tolerance is not a bad thing, its a dangerous thing. The right path is not always the easy path. Being tolerant of outside religions opens a lot of doors for evil to infiltrate our society. It creates a certain level of danger. We accept this danger in the name of doing the right thing. I was joking when i used batman as an example, but that's a good example. Batman's job is more dangerous because he does it the right way. It would have been a lot easier to just shoot everyone up.

So, what is your solution? Would you force everyone that is Muslim into concentration camps, exile them out of the country, stop allowing any Muslim immigrants into the US, etc? Do we stop having religious tolerance in the US and become "un-American"?

Not every piece on the board is a knight, some are just pawns. I dont believe the ones who embrace the american way of life are following the scripture as it was intended. That is a compliment to them. My question is why do they continue to claim affiliation to islam.... is it because they like the bon fires?

So, you believe that these children born in America are being deceived from birth? What advantage is that to this "grand Islamic plot"?
Perhaps the Islamic scriptures that they were preached to by the iman taught them to live in peace and harmony? Or is that too difficult for you to believe?
See, I know Muslims here in America that have raised their children to adults, and I know other Muslims completely unrelated to the others that are currently raising their children to be peaceful. I'm talking about different Muslims, with different backgrounds, some born in the US, some in other countries, some raised since birth to be Muslim, and others who have converted is Islam. They all have in common their peaceful integration into the American way of life. This knowledge that I have of them at a close, personal level run completely contrary to what you have been stating over and over again. Do you think that these unrelated groups (they don't know each other) somehow are being controlled and brainwashed to be enemies of yours without any common denominators? That does not seem logical to me.

I could argue that it's a display of masculinity. This is a common practice throughout Islam. It's a male dominant religion and a lot of it involves gamesmanship and grandstanding. It's easier to paint these actions as mockery than it is to say theyre embracing western culture. Sharia law also permits "breaking the rules" to deceive infidels.

Actually, it's a bunch of Islamic kids that just go to London each summer and have fun, then go back home in time for the prayers and fasting. There is no "mocking" of western culture - they do this every year and love it. It's no different than American college kids heading down to Daytona. You are making baseless assumptions about something you know nothing about. They aren't deceiving anyone, they are just having a good time - unless you believe that somehow every single one of them is an active terrorist just there to scout out targets.

I didnt say theyre automatically bad.... the "good muslims" are the "KKK members who just like bon fires"

So then, by your statement - you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but "good Muslims" are walking advertisements for evil.

You know, I saw a lot of condemnation for the Boston bombers from the Muslim community. How does that work with "hanging around the bonfire"?

[Vteckidd]

I think all religion is guilty of forgetting that their doctrines are based on BELIEF, not FACTs.

Thats all i have to add

[Sinfix_15]

There's only one problem - one of the people that they hung out with during these discussions was an old black man. They didn't seem to have any problems with respecting his opinion, and certainly didn't see him as a "lesser man" (granted that he was the only black man in their group, and not a member as far as I know). So, where were they evil/bad/terrible?

They endorse evil. There's no way to wear the KKK brand without accepting this reality. If you are a member of the KKK, i dont care if you spend every waking hour doing charity and good deeds, you are endorsing a brand that promotes evil. Your good deeds are masking the designed purpose of that organization and contributing to it's recruitment.

So, what is your solution? Would you force everyone that is Muslim into concentration camps, exile them out of the country, stop allowing any Muslim immigrants into the US, etc? Do we stop having religious tolerance in the US and become "un-American"?

Step 1 is to make sure that our own citizens and customs are reinforced and that our open people are empowered to be free individuals. A major contributor to that idea is your 2nd amendment rights. As long as the US is strong and free, we have no worries of being ruled. Current policy weakens civil liberty, freedom and our ability as individuals to repel these problems. Tolerance of religion can be mated with awareness. Rather than us being apologetic to the radical aspects of Islam, we should openly condemn them and punish their crimes to the fullest extent of the law. Sharia law should never be honored on american soil and every individual who becomes an american citizen should be protected by our laws.

So, you believe that these children born in America are being deceived from birth? What advantage is that to this "grand Islamic plot"?
Perhaps the Islamic scriptures that they were preached to by the iman taught them to live in peace and harmony? Or is that too difficult for you to believe?
See, I know Muslims here in America that have raised their children to adults, and I know other Muslims completely unrelated to the others that are currently raising their children to be peaceful. I'm talking about different Muslims, with different backgrounds, some born in the US, some in other countries, some raised since birth to be Muslim, and others who have converted is Islam. They all have in common their peaceful integration into the American way of life. This knowledge that I have of them at a close, personal level run completely contrary to what you have been stating over and over again. Do you think that these unrelated groups (they don't know each other) somehow are being controlled and brainwashed to be enemies of yours without any common denominators? That does not seem logical to me.

I dont see how this changes anything. The scripture is what it is. They are not following the scripture, they are taking some of the scripture as a guide. I support some religious practices, but i claim no religion. I would never endorse any religion in it's entirety. I dont know why these people you know feel the need to endorse Islam. I guess its human nature to want to belong to a group, and when no group completely suits you, you simply chose one, or inherit it from your parents.

Actually, it's a bunch of Islamic kids that just go to London each summer and have fun, then go back home in time for the prayers and fasting. There is no "mocking" of western culture - they do this every year and love it. It's no different than American college kids heading down to Daytona. You are making baseless assumptions about something you know nothing about. They aren't deceiving anyone, they are just having a good time - unless you believe that somehow every single one of them is an active terrorist just there to scout out targets.

Again, the theme is that these people are not following the scripture. They are casual observers of Islam. My "beef" is with the religion itself. My other argument was a stretch.

So then, by your statement - you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but "good Muslims" are walking advertisements for evil.

You know, I saw a lot of condemnation for the Boston bombers from the Muslim community. How does that work with "hanging around the bonfire"?

Analogy still applies..... those "good muslims" attended the bon fire, then went home when the rest of the Klan went out and burned crosses and hung people. As long as they claim Islam, theyre walking advertisements for what happens on behalf of islam. The extremism exists in the texts, not everyone embraces it, but it is always there. as long as the text is promoted, some portion of people will adopt the radical views contained within. Unintentionally, your muslim friends are contributing to this problem. The boston bombers are a great example. They appeared perfectly normal to everyone around them, they probably were good people at some point in time..... eventually their life's course led them to discover the extremism contained within Islam and they fell victim to it. That's Islam..... a bed of flowers planted around the gate of a slaughter house. Some people can stop, pick a flower and walk away.... others see the flowers and walk inside.

[Sinfix_15]

I'm mentally exhausted for today........

I'll pick up another scripture in the next couple days. In the mean time, i'm going to take a break and limit my posts to mocking Blank's unbelievable hypocrisy.

[David88vert]

They endorse evil. There's no way to wear the KKK brand without accepting this reality. If you are a member of the KKK, i dont care if you spend every waking hour doing charity and good deeds, you are endorsing a brand that promotes evil. Your good deeds are masking the designed purpose of that organization and contributing to it's recruitment.

Got it. All people who do good, live good lives, are always peaceful, and help others, are evil scum if they have any association with any group that ever does evil.
By that understanding - all atheists are now deemed to be serial killers and mass murderers due to guilt by association, right?

Step 1 is to make sure that our own citizens and customs are reinforced and that our open people are empowered to be free individuals. A major contributor to that idea is your 2nd amendment rights. As long as the US is strong and free, we have no worries of being ruled. Current policy weakens civil liberty, freedom and our ability as individuals to repel these problems. Tolerance of religion can be mated with awareness. Rather than us being apologetic to the radical aspects of Islam, we should openly condemn them and punish their crimes to the fullest extent of the law. Sharia law should never be honored on american soil and every individual who becomes an american citizen should be protected by our laws.

Step 1 - What "customs" are you referring to? The rest of it seems to be business as usual. I don't see you changing anything that we already do.
We already try and convict individuals for the crimes that they commit, regardless of any religious rational. We don't try and convict people based upon their religious affiliations though. Would you suggest that we start doing that?
I am not aware of anyone being arrested, tried, or convicted in the US judicial system based upon any Sharia laws, only US federal and state laws. I have never even heard anyone suggest that our courts use Sharia law. Where do you even come up with that statement?

Step 2 is what? What action items do you think that we should implement into law? Genuine interest here.

I dont see how this changes anything. The scripture is what it is. They are not following the scripture, they are taking some of the scripture as a guide. I support some religious practices, but i claim not religion. I would never endorse any religion in it's entirety. I dont know why these people you know feel the need to endorse Islam. I guess its human nature to want to belong to a group, and when no group completely suits you, you simply chose one, or inherit it from your parents.

I'm simply asking you how these Muslims fit into your "gran scheme of Islam". That's all. I don't see how Islam can "take over and dominate the world", when their own people aren't even in on it, nor would support any such action.
How would they even coordinate that large of a group of people logistically?

So, based upon your earlier statements, you seem to think that people should need a religious guide (instructions) for being "good people" with morals. I see that most people can't even do the most basic things without some sort of instructions. Just basic cooking of food seems to need detailed instructions on how to make it editable, but somehow you think that these same people that need instructions on how high to turn up the head on their oven are going to be able to make moral judgment calls with no instructions. The same non-church-going people that rob, cheat, kill, steal, etc today with no second thought. I just don't buy it.

Again, the theme is that these people are not following the scripture. They are casual observers of Islam. My "beef" is with the religion itself. My other argument was a stretch.

They observe every peaceful instruction that they are taught, and pray 5 times a day as instructed, but they are just "casual observers", according to you. As long as they don't rape, steal, and kill, they aren't Muslims according to your "rules" - that's about right, isn't it?

Analogy still applies..... those "good muslims" attended the bon fire, then went home when the rest of the Klan went out and burned crosses and hung people. As long as they claim Islam, theyre walking advertisements for what happens on behalf of islam. The extremism exists in the texts, not everyone embraces it, but it is always there. as long as the text is promoted, some portion of people will adopt the radical views contained within. Unintentionally, your muslim friends are contributing to this problem. The boston bombers are a great example. They appeared perfectly normal to everyone around them, they probably were good people at some point in time..... eventually their life's course led them to discover the extremism contained within Islam and they fell victim to it. That's Islam..... a bed of flowers planted around the gate of a slaughter house. Some people can stop, pick a flower and walk away.... others see the flowers and walk inside.

Guilt by association. Luckily, you aren't in our legal system.

[Sinfix_15]

Got it. All people who do good, live good lives, are always peaceful, and help others, are evil scum if they have any association with any group that ever does evil.
By that understanding - all atheists are now deemed to be serial killers and mass murderers due to guilt by association, right?

I dont view atheist as a group for one. Not believing is not a belief in itself. I am an individual. It's the religious who chose to brand me with a label.

You're taking my comment to the extreme. Not guilty by association, or guilty in any regard. They empower a religious group that is designed to do evil. They are enablers. Islam is what it is, if you chose to cherry pick the good parts and still call yourself a muslim, whether you like it or not, you are empowering those who take islam literally and too the extreme.

Step 1 - What "customs" are you referring to? The rest of it seems to be business as usual. I don't see you changing anything that we already do.
We already try and convict individuals for the crimes that they commit, regardless of any religious rational. We don't try and convict people based upon their religious affiliations though. Would you suggest that we start doing that?
I am not aware of anyone being arrested, tried, or convicted in the US judicial system based upon any Sharia laws, only US federal and state laws. I have never even heard anyone suggest that our courts use Sharia law. Where do you even come up with that statement?

Step 2 is what? What action items do you think that we should implement into law? Genuine interest here.

Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. I have no confidence in it's ability to stand up for traditional american beliefs. Our current president said "the future must not belong to those who slander the profit of islam". By american laws, the profit muhammad is a rapist, pedophile and murderer and the disdain for him is free speech. Step 2 would be to stop the global campaigning and focus on preserving the rights of american citizens. Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured. The campaign should be to condemn these aspects of Islam, not to be tolerant of them. If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech. Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. Our own government promotes a message that we should be ashamed of our freedom while at the same time apologizing to all of the radicals of the world. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations.

I'm simply asking you how these Muslims fit into your "gran scheme of Islam". That's all. I don't see how Islam can "take over and dominate the world", when their own people aren't even in on it, nor would support any such action.
How would they even coordinate that large of a group of people logistically?

Those people are the pawns. They are the veil that makes people like you defend islam. The islamic extremist do not need to coordinate a large group, thier current model of attack is to push propaganda in hopes of generating lone wolf acts of terrorism. The seed of hate has been planted, it exists in the texts of the Koran. Islam waters those seeds, some grow, some dont. It only takes 1 person..... the boston bombing was acted out by two people, who appeared normal to their friends. They could have easily been one of your friends who you are currently defending. Every time something like that happens everybody says "omg i didnt expect that", why not? it's all laid out by the Koran.

So, based upon your earlier statements, you seem to think that people should need a religious guide (instructions) for being "good people" with morals. I see that most people can't even do the most basic things without some sort of instructions. Just basic cooking of food seems to need detailed instructions on how to make it editable, but somehow you think that these same people that need instructions on how high to turn up the head on their oven are going to be able to make moral judgment calls with no instructions. The same non-church-going people that rob, cheat, kill, steal, etc today with no second thought. I just don't buy it.

governments and religious groups have killed way more people than the nonreligious, yet governments and religions continue to preach that the world would be chaos without either of them.

They observe every peaceful instruction that they are taught, and pray 5 times a day as instructed, but they are just "casual observers", according to you. As long as they don't rape, steal, and kill, they aren't Muslims according to your "rules" - that's about right, isn't it?

Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

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Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

Hmm. A no-true-Scotsman fallacy.

[Sinfix_15]

Hmm. A no-true-Scotsman fallacy.

Do you believe in the profit Muhammad?

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Do you believe in the profit Muhammad?

No. Again.

[Sinfix_15]

No. Again.

So you're saying the book we are talking about is fictional?

[David88vert]

I dont view atheist as a group for one. Not believing is not a belief in itself. I am an individual. It's the religious who chose to brand me with a label.

Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.

You're taking my comment to the extreme. Not guilty by association, or guilty in any regard. They empower a religious group that is designed to do evil. They are enablers. Islam is what it is, if you chose to cherry pick the good parts and still call yourself a muslim, whether you like it or not, you are empowering those who take islam literally and too the extreme.

How is it empowering the radicals? Give an example of an actual measurable empowerment.

Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. I have no confidence in it's ability to stand up for traditional american beliefs. Our current president said "the future cant belong to those who slander the profit muhammad. By american laws, the profit muhammad is a rapist, pedophile and murderer and the disdain for him is free speech. Step 2 would be to stop the global campaigning and focus on preserving the rights of american citizens. Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured. The campaign should be to condemn these aspects of Islam, not to be tolerant of them. If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech. Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. Our own government promotes a message that we should be ashamed of our freedom while at the same time apologizing to all of the radicals of the world. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations.

How much? I want to buy the government. Give me a price and who to make the check out to, since you have decided that the American people no longer elect our government.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

Mohammed never lived in the US - we can't prosecute him. That little tidbit might have escaped your attention.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

"Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured." - I believe that most people already are aware of our laws, and follow them. The crime statistics support it.

"If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech." - My Muslim friends certainly do support the laws of the US, and abide by them. They also support free speech - which I have to wonder if you do. You sound like you would like to ban the Qur'an's teachings in the US, and the rest of the world, if possible.

"Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations." - You should already know that I am fully in agreement with you on this point.

Those people are the pawns. They are the veil that makes people like you defend islam. The islamic extremist do not need to coordinate a large group, theyre current model of attack is to push propaganda in hopes of generating lone wolf acts of terrorism. The seed of hate has been planted, it exists in the texts of the Koran. Islam waters those seeds, some grow, some dont. It only takes 1 person..... the boston bombing was acted out by two people, who appeared normal to their friends. They could have easily been one of your friends who you are currently defending. Every time something like that happens everybody says "omg i didnt expect that", why not? it's all laid out by the Koran.

Stating that people are pawns implies that they are participants on a battlefield, and that they know that (willing participants). That isn't the case. They are not being "moved around" the battlefield, and are not participating in any of the conflict. If anything, they would be spectators in the stands at a football game.

I am not defending Islam. I point out reality and facts, that's it.
These "lone acts of terrorism" - how do they help these radical extremists control and conquer the world? That's what you said that Islam was all about - conquering, dominating, and controlling the world. How did the acts of the Boston bombers advance the radicals in their quest to conquer the US? Show an example of it.

As for my friends, I'm pretty certain that they would not do anything like the Boston bombers. Your attempt to place that kind of guilt by association on them is pretty pathetic.

governments and religious groups have killed way more people than the nonreligious, yet governments and religions continue to preach that the world would be chaos without either of them.

I love when people pretend that without religion or government, everything would be great. It's a myth that is easily dispelled.
Here are six atheists that killed a large amount of people.

Stalin - Estimated to have killed between 20 and 60 million (the higher number is indirect through starvation/hunger)
Pol Pot - Estimated to have killed around 2 million Cambodians (approximately one third of the population).
Mao - Blamed for the deaths of between 20 and 67 million, including 5 million executed in death camps. Another 36 million were persecuted and tortured.
Mussolini - Only around 300,000 - not bad, right?
Napoleon - Estimated 6 million dead Europeans.

None of the above involved religion. These were atheists that killed. And that's just six of them.

Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

So they are evil for doing good, but being associated with Islam?
Your logic is astounding (sarcastic comment).


(Sarcastic comments are marked so you don't waste your time trying to answer them.)

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So you're saying the book we are talking about is fictional?

No

[Sinfix_15]

Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.

Can you direct me to the atheist "bible" so i can read it and educate myself on this group i apparently belong to. I'm curious to what our commandments are and if child rape or beheading is allowed.

I clearly renounce being a part of any group. If muslims did the same, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

How is it empowering the radicals? Give an example of an actual measurable empowerment.

Mohammed never lived in the US - we can't prosecute him. That little tidbit might have escaped your attention.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

Neither did Osama Bin Laden.

"If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech." - My Muslim friends certainly do support the laws of the US, and abide by them. They also support free speech - which I have to wonder if you do. You sound like you would like to ban the Qur'an's teachings in the US, and the rest of the world, if possible.

I dont want to ban free speech or the Koran. I just dont want it endorsed by my government. A lot of Islamic traditions are illegal in the united states..... how can our government promote tolerance of this criminal activity. It should be condemned. I dont want to see Islam made illegal, i just want the promotion to stop. Rape fetish porn is legal, that doesnt mean our government should promote tolerance of it.

Stating that people are pawns implies that they are participants on a battlefield, and that they know that (willing participants). That isn't the case. They are not being "moved around" the battlefield, and are not participating in any of the conflict. If anything, they would be spectators in the stands at a football game.

They are bushes that the enemy hides in.

I am not defending Islam. I point out reality and facts, that's it.
These "lone acts of terrorism" - how do they help these radical extremists control and conquer the world? That's what you said that Islam was all about - conquering, dominating, and controlling the world. How did the acts of the Boston bombers advance the radicals in their quest to conquer the US? Show an example of it.

You assume that these criminals are rational human beings. The boston bombing was a victory for islamic terrorists. 9/11 was a victory.... the attacks on our embassy are victories....

I love when people pretend that without religion or government, everything would be great. It's a myth that is easily dispelled.
Here are six atheists that killed a large amount of people.

Stalin - Estimated to have killed between 20 and 60 million (the higher number is indirect through starvation/hunger)
Pol Pot - Estimated to have killed around 2 million Cambodians (approximately one third of the population).
Mao - Blamed for the deaths of between 20 and 67 million, including 5 million executed in death camps. Another 36 million were persecuted and tortured.
Mussolini - Only around 300,000 - not bad, right?
Napoleon - Estimated 6 million dead Europeans.

None of the above involved religion. These were atheists that killed. And that's just six of them.

Communist
Communist
Communist
Fascist
Monarch

Ummm...... you saw the part where i said governments right? As much as you want to make people who do not believe in gods a group, they are not. I have nothing in common with any of these individuals and their power stemmed from governing authority. I am a strong advocate against big government and the government's authority to rule over people. Was this comment meant for someone else???

So they are evil for doing good, but being associated with Islam?
Your logic is astounding (sarcastic comment).

Theyre not evil. The religion itself is evil and they have fallen victim to it. You boast the numbers of muslims in america and the number world wide. Because of these numbers they continue to gain political influence. With that political influence, they advance their religion globally. As i already said...... i fear the politician more than the sword or bullet.

[Sinfix_15]

No

So the stories in the bible and the Qur'an are both true? Muhammad had the sexual strength of 30 men, Moses parted the red sea, Jesus turned water into wine?

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Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief of a deity. Nothing more. Nothing less.

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So the stories in the bible and the Qur'an are both true?

Not all of them. No.

[Sinfix_15]

Not all of them. No.

Would you mind highlighting some of the ones you do and do not believe, particularly the ones regarding Islam.

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Would you mind highlighting some of the ones you do and do not believe, particularly the ones regarding Islam.

Not a scholar of either religion so I couldn't be sure which ones are legitimate.

[Sinfix_15]

Not a scholar of either religion so I couldn't be sure which ones are legitimate.

You were educated enough to make these statements.... pardon me for expecting the same enthusiasm towards Islam. Strangely.... you stepped away and slipped out the back door when that conversation turned towards Islam as well.

Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?

This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.

If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell

So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?

The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?

So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.

You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.

I guess a more fitting question would be are you bigger hypocrite or moron?

You are quite the deceiver blank, some might say the best of deceivers.

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You were educated enough to make these statements.... pardon me for expecting the same enthusiasm towards Islam. Strangely.... you stepped away and slipped out the back door when that conversation turned towards Islam as well.

Educated enough to know when something defies the laws of physics. Haven't slipped out the back door of anything. I'm just not letting you put words in my mouth to help build your strawman argument and justify your own bigotry and ignorance. Nothing I've ever said regarding religion has been hypocritical at all. Never once have I claimed that Christianity is filth. Had you taken the time to read the thread you cherry picked those quotes from, you'd understand that. But reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strong suits.

[-EnVus-]

I can't stand an Atheist stop being a lazy fuck and choose a religion dammit !!

[David88vert]

Can you direct me to the atheist "bible" so i can read it and educate myself on this group i apparently belong to. I'm curious to what our commandments are and if child rape or beheading is allowed.

I clearly renounce being a part of any group. If muslims did the same, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

There is no "atheist bible", as you are already aware. Instead, with atheism, anything goes, as there is no accountability or responsibility anymore. As much as you don't like it, Dahmer made the point.

Not being part of a group makes no difference as to whether someone chooses to do evil or good.

(photo of Kerry)

I do not know what you are referring to by this photo. Being near Kerry is hardly a win.

Neither did Osama Bin Laden.

Mohammed never attacked the US, and you would have a hard time finding and killing a man who has been dead for 1500 years.

I dont want to ban free speech or the Koran. I just dont want it endorsed by my government. A lot of Islamic traditions are illegal in the united states..... how can our government promote tolerance of this criminal activity. It should be condemned. I dont want to see Islam made illegal, i just want the promotion to stop. Rape fetish porn is legal, that doesnt mean our government should promote tolerance of it.

Where is the US government promoting criminal activity by Muslims? Please give specific examples that we can ask Congress to act upon.

They are bushes that the enemy hides in.

Please don't dodge - that's what you accuse blank of doing.

You assume that these criminals are rational human beings. The boston bombing was a victory for islamic terrorists. 9/11 was a victory.... the attacks on our embassy are victories....

How did any of these acts get them closer to conquering, dominating, and controlling the world? That is what you stated their goal was. I want you to state specific measureable results that move them closer to this world domination. Make it obvious for us.

Communist
Communist
Communist
Fascist
Monarch

Ummm...... you saw the part where i said governments right? As much as you want to make people who do not believe in gods a group, they are not. I have nothing in common with any of these individuals and their power stemmed from governing authority. I am a strong advocate against big government and the government's authority to rule over people. Was this comment meant for someone else???

You stated governments and religion are doing the killing, making the implication be that if we didn't have either, we would be better off. I am stating that is not true. It appears that you do understand that we need government. What you don't see is that the worst genocides in history happened in the absence of government and religion. Look them up.

All of those leaders that I listed earlier declared that they were atheists. They never claimed to be part of a group, just that they were atheists. They choose to be evil, without religion as an excuse. That has been my point the whole time - people choose their actions, and have to be personally responsible for them.

Theyre not evil. The religion itself is evil and they have fallen victim to it. You boast the numbers of muslims in america and the number world wide. Because of these numbers they continue to gain political influence. With that political influence, they advance their religion globally. As i already said...... i fear the politician more than the sword or bullet.

So, you are saying that you are worried that the peaceful Muslims will take over your government? The ones that live without the same hate that you have for their religion?
2.6 Muslims in the US, out of 314 million people in the US. And you consider them a threat?

[David88vert]

Atheism is simply a lack of belief of a deity. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Agnosticism says, "It is unknown if there are gods". That is a lack of belief, and nothing more.
Atheism states, "There is no God/gods." That's a belief and a specific denial of the existence of God.
Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

If you do not believe this, take it up with University of North Texas sociologists David A. Williamson and George Yancey, and David Silverman and Dennis Horvitz of the American Atheists, a powerful lobbying group.



you might want to start a different thread for atheism though, as it is off on a tangent for this thread.

[David88vert]

Educated enough to know when something defies the laws of physics. ....

Physics deals with the finite universe, not infinite beings.

[David88vert]

I can't stand an Atheist stop being a lazy fuck and choose a religion dammit !!

Atheists have already chosen, "None of the above". They've already made a choice.

[Sinfix_15]

I can't stand an Atheist stop being a lazy fuck and choose a religion dammit !!

If forced to chose, i'll take the greek mythology gods.

[Sinfix_15]

There is no "atheist bible", as you are already aware. Instead, with atheism, anything goes, as there is no accountability or responsibility anymore. As much as you don't like it, Dahmer made the point.

Not being part of a group makes no difference as to whether someone chooses to do evil or good.

lol... "anything goes" without religion... not really worthy of comment.

I do not know what you are referring to by this photo. Being near Kerry is hardly a win.

Political influence is a major victory. Islam has influence within the american government, the strongest nation in the world. That is a victory.

Where is the US government promoting criminal activity by Muslims? Please give specific examples that we can ask Congress to act upon.

Promoting Islam is promoting criminal activity. That is the point. Islam should not be promoted at all. If Muhammad was alive today and living his life the way he preached in the united states... he would be on par with this guy.... and jailed.

How did any of these acts get them closer to conquering, dominating, and controlling the world? That is what you stated their goal was. I want you to state specific measureable results that move them closer to this world domination. Make it obvious for us.

A political foothold is the best strategy for world domination. That is what theyre seeking. We will never fall to warships landing on our beaches.... we can only fall from within. The war is being waged.....


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...as-hezbollah-/

You stated governments and religion are doing the killing, making the implication be that if we didn't have either, we would be better off. I am stating that is not true. It appears that you do understand that we need government. What you don't see is that the worst genocides in history happened in the absence of government and religion. Look them up.

We need limited government that doesnt attempt to control our lives. I'd love to see proof of genocide worse than that of government and religion.

All of those leaders that I listed earlier declared that they were atheists. They never claimed to be part of a group, just that they were atheists. They choose to be evil, without religion as an excuse. That has been my point the whole time - people choose their actions, and have to be personally responsible for them.

They were a part of their governments. There's really not that much difference in religion and government, they both serve relative functions with similar interests. Things become chaotic when either of their roles are not limited. Limited government and limited religion can serve humanity well. It's when they over reach that the problems begin.

So, you are saying that you are worried that the peaceful Muslims will take over your government? The ones that live without the same hate that you have for their religion?
2.6 Muslims in the US, out of 314 million people in the US. And you consider them a threat?

No, i think the 2.6m muslims in america are meek and incapable of separating themselves from the radicals. Even far removed from the oppression and shielded by the safety of american law, they still claim allegiance to the radical religion. In the event the extremist started migrating here, they would have the political support of the muslims that exist here. The hive mind of religious groups is very strong.

[Sinfix_15]

Educated enough to know when something defies the laws of physics. Haven't slipped out the back door of anything. I'm just not letting you put words in my mouth to help build your strawman argument and justify your own bigotry and ignorance. Nothing I've ever said regarding religion has been hypocritical at all. Never once have I claimed that Christianity is filth. Had you taken the time to read the thread you cherry picked those quotes from, you'd understand that. But reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strong suits.

No child, by your definition of bigotry, you are a bigot. Perhaps you should be more tolerant of christianity. Maybe you need to take a break from pretending to be a psychiatrist and actually go see a real one. Your views are so bassackwards and contradicting. You Obamanists really dont know your own asses from a hole in the wall. Stay with the hive little bee....

[Sinfix_15]

Sharia Law

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

[David88vert]

lol... "anything goes" without religion... not really worthy of comment.

It's true - an atheist is accountable to no deity by very definition. Whatever that person sees as good or evil doesn't really matter, they can choose to be evil without worry that it will affect them after death, and if they kill someone else, what does it really matter, since life has no real meaning?

I've given you Dahmer's statement twice earlier in this thread, and you've ignored it twice. You probably need a new thread for atheism, as it's not Islam.

Political influence is a major victory. Islam has influence within the american government, the strongest nation in the world. That is a victory.

President Ronald Reagan met the leaders of the Islamic Jihad at the White House in 1985. Did you believe that they just gained access to the US government after 9/11?

Promoting Islam is promoting criminal activity. That is the point. Islam should not be promoted at all. If Muhammad was alive today and living his life the way he preached in the united states... he would be on par with this guy.... and jailed.
(photo of Ariel Castro)

So, just believing in a religion is now criminal activity? What country do you live in? You might want to move to the US, where we do not criminalize belief in a deity.

If Muhammed was alive today and was living in the US, he would not be prosecuted for his religious beliefs. If he broke the laws of the US, then he would be prosecuted for breaking those laws, as an individual, not the entire religion.

Ariel Castro has nothing to do with Islam, and using his likeness means that you are resorting to sensationalistic tactics that the Democrats love.

A political foothold is the best strategy for world domination. That is what theyre seeking. We will never fall to warships landing on our beaches.... we can only fall from within. The war is being waged.....

I understand what you are trying to say here, and I would agree that radical extremists from all groups (religious and non-religious) recognize that this is the only effective strategy with the US. So, shouldn't the attacks work in the opposite manner - to drive us away from them?

CIA finds 1 in 5 flagged job applicants come from Hamas, Hezbollah, al Qaeda - Washington Times

Don't we do the same to them? Does this report surprise you? We've already agreed that there are radicals out there.

We need limited government that doesnt attempt to control our lives. I'd love to see proof of genocide worse than that of government and religion.

You know that I agree 100% with the underlined statement.

As for the genocides, look up these:
Moriori Genocide - Tribal conflict, wiped out the peaceful group. No government or religion involved.

Rwandan Genocide - The poor rose up and killed the rich, Hundreds of thousands were killed—the preferred method of execution being the machete, as ammunition was too expensive and difficult to come by. Rape, mutilation, and the deliberate spread of disease were also used as tools of terror. Between 500K and 1M died. No religion or government.

Irish Potato Famine - Over 1M died. The wealthy British kicked the poor Irish farmers off the land, and let them starve. I slisted on some (but not all lists) as genocide.

Congoese Pygmy Genocide - Hunted and eaten by the Movement for the Liberation of the Congo during the civil war in the Congo. Still be starved and dying out.

Inca Genocide - Francisco Pizarro slaughtered them for gold and precious metals.

Aztec Genocide - Hernán Cortés slaughtered them for their gold.

American Indian Genocide - Many were slaughtered for land.

There are many more. To blame one thing - government, religion, guns, etc for al the killing is foolish.

They were a part of their governments. There's really not that much difference in religion and government, they both serve relative functions with similar interests. Things become chaotic when either of their roles are not limited. Limited government and limited religion can serve humanity well. It's when they over reach that the problems begin.

On this, we mostly agree. You don't want a government run by religious leaders, or a religion run by the government. That is in line with how the founding fathers setup our American government.

No, i think the 2.6m muslims in america are meek and incapable of separating themselves from the radicals. Even far removed from the oppression and shielded by the safety of american law, they still claim allegiance to the radical religion. In the event the extremist started migrating here, they would have the political support of the muslims that exist here. The hive mind of religious groups is very strong.

You believe that 2.6 million Americans are just suddenly going to turn on everything that they were taught their entire lives, and just fall in line with those who they have disagreed with all their lives? Do you believe that would happen if we substitute "Christians" in place of "Muslims"?

I don't really think that we are going to come to any real agreements or understandings here, so when you are ready to get back to discussion of the scriptures, I will join back in the discussion.

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Agnosticism says, "It is unknown if there are gods". That is a lack of belief, and nothing more.
Atheism states, "There is no God/gods." That's a belief and a specific denial of the existence of God.
Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

If you do not believe this, take it up with University of North Texas sociologists David A. Williamson and George Yancey, and David Silverman and Dennis Horvitz of the American Atheists, a powerful lobbying group.

As an atheist myself, you are absolutely right. I totally forgot what atheism means. I mean, it doesn't really matter that the word literally means "no belief in deities". We should just take powerful lobbying groups on their word all the time. Fuck me, right?

You probably weren't aware. Which is fine. It's a common misconception, even within the atheist community, that atheism implies a belief.

[David88vert]

As an atheist myself, you are absolutely right. I totally forgot what atheism means. I mean, it doesn't really matter that the word literally means "no belief in deities". We should just take powerful lobbying groups on their word all the time. Fuck me, right?

You probably weren't aware. Which is fine. It's a common misconception, even within the atheist community, that atheism implies a belief.

I was waiting for that response.

There is a huge difference in a statement of certainty that there is no god, and a statement that you do not know if there is a god or not. Stating, "I don't believe in a god", can fit either in the atheist or agnostic camp. A statement that says, "There is no god", is a declaration that can only be attributed to faith, as it is impossible to prove the existence of an infinite being, while we are limited to exploring our finite world.

atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings
Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com

agnostic - a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience
Agnostic | What is the Definition of Agnostic? | Dictionary.com

So, are you saying that we shouldn't take the billboards seriously? If that is the case, why did they spend so much to do so many different versions of them?
There are dozens of different ones, all communicating the same message....
https://www.google.com/search?site=&...53.pGgFhoMNUC4

Here's the news today:
Fox News host: Atheists 'don't have to live here' – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

"I, for one, am tired of those Christians, like Ms. Perino, who think that equality is somehow un-American," Silverman said. "If Ms. Perino doesn't like being only equal, it is she who will have to leave America to some other country that doesn't value religious liberty." - David Silverman, president of the American Atheists

He is arguing that the words, "under God", need to be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and is using religious liberty as his argument. Isn't that claiming that atheism should be treated the same way as a mainstream religion? Furthermore, if there is no God, then why would atheists even care about those two words?

And, if you don't like the American Atheists, there is still the American Humanist Association.

This topic should really be moved to its own thread though.

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I was waiting for that response.

atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings
Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com

I was hoping you'd pull the definition for me. Thank you for confirming.

[Sinfix_15]

So, just believing in a religion is now criminal activity? What country do you live in? You might want to move to the US, where we do not criminalize belief in a deity.

If Muhammed was alive today and was living in the US, he would not be prosecuted for his religious beliefs. If he broke the laws of the US, then he would be prosecuted for breaking those laws, as an individual, not the entire religion.

Ariel Castro has nothing to do with Islam, and using his likeness means that you are resorting to sensationalistic tactics that the Democrats love.

Muhammad would be viewed as a pedophile and rapist. He viewed women as objects that he could own and enslave, just like Castro. He would be put in prison, just like Castro.

Sahih chapter 8
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.