View Poll Results: What is your opinion of Islam?

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  • I am a Christian, i do not support Islam.

    1 16.67%
  • I am a Christian, i do support Islam.

    2 33.33%
  • I am a non-believer and do not support Islam.

    1 16.67%
  • I am a non-believer and support Islam.

    0 0%
  • I am a Muslim or am considering becoming one.

    0 0%
  • I am not sure how i feel about Islam.

    0 0%
  • I have a very negative opinion of Islam.

    3 50.00%
  • I have a very positive opinion of Islam.

    2 33.33%
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Thread: Scripture a day (Islam Edition)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    What truth am i unaware of?
    That the vast majority of Muslims are not radical extremists/terrorists and only want to live normal, peaceful lives, and have no intention to try to control or deceive you. They are not secretly plotting to kill you, the non-believer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Pictures of people traveling to protest Islam on 9/11...... it would appear i am not alone in my views.
    Of course you aren't alone in your views. No one ever is, no matter what topic. There were tons of people that were still for slavery in 1861 - enough to have a civil war.
    Every single one of those people protesting have the right to their opinions - that is one of the things that makes America such a great country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    I made statements on my own experiences with dealing with Muslims - in business and in personal life, and from being around them while they were involved in religious activities. You made statements based upon what former Muslims told you. I didn't speak about what others told me, but from real world interaction. If you can't see the difference, then this discussion is hopeless, as you will never get it.
    I fail to see how my experience is different from yours. The individual who was a muslim for 30+ years i work with and speak to daily, ive also attended his church and have a lot of conversations regarding religion. I also referenced two brothers i am friends with who are active muslims. They themselves are not extreme, but their parents are. His father is very abusive and dominant. The females in his house are submissive. The two brothers are embarrassed by their actions, but dont speak out to keep the peace. No, i dont see the difference in my sample of life compared to your sample of life.





    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    Like I said before, you have no personal experience (that you have stated up to now) with Muslims who are active in their faith. Reading about it in the paper and watching it on tv is not personal experience. If you believe that is personal experience, this topic is already over, as you are unable to comprehend the basics.
    Then you also have no personal experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    While there is no publication of statistics that I am aware of, I would agree that at this point in time, the appearance is that more terrorists/radicals are using the Islamic religion as justification for their actions.
    And you have no thoughts are how easy it is to connect these actions to scripture?





    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    The statement, "Islam is filth.", is your opinion, and is expressly the type of hate speech that you claimed would not be part of this thread.
    Islam is filth. How is this hate speech? Rape is filth, murder is filth... slavery is filth. This should not offend you unless you are a rapist, murder or slave owner. The crimes of Islam should not be ignored. Peaceful citizens who practice Islam are at least ignorant. There's some teachings from the bible that i follow, but i would never claim christianity as a whole because i cannot accept the crimes or lies of that religion. You cant cherry pick what you want from a religion without accepting the entirety of it. Islam is responsible for a lot of evil in this world. The casual observers of Islam condone these actions even if they dont participate in them.

    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    The reason that I bought up the current Mexican drug war is that it is a civil war that has its combatants using the exact same execution tactics (such as beheading), is next door to the US (literally), and its combatants do not use the excuse of religion for their actions. You have attempted to paint the Qur'an as the instruction guide for all of these style atrocities.
    It doesnt stand alone as an instruction guide. It is one of many instruction guides for evil.


    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    And, yes, the Qur'an does make mention of taking the women of defeated enemies. Guess what - most ancient cultures did that, and it still happens in modern conflicts. Doesn't make it right, and I'm not defending it - just recognize reality and take off the rose-colored glasses. People choose to be evil, regardless of religious beliefs.
    Its way more than that...... this is another example of you minimizing it. Muslims allow child rape, child slavery, they cut the clitoris off young girls, they beat and abuse women sexually, disfigure them, oppress them............. women are pets according to Islam. They have the rights of a common dog.






    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    I am not offended. I am not offended. I am not offended. Get it yet?
    I don't have an attachment to this topic any more than any other - and probably less on this one. There is no emotion here from me.
    I am being just as civil as I always am. Perhaps you just aren't used to me addressing your statements the very same way that I address blanks.
    I addressed what you had - your opinion. You didn't come in with facts.
    If you want to discuss scripture, then stay on that topic. As soon as you went off into opinion, you changed the discussion from what you stated originally that it would be.
    Winning? LOL. You have to have something other than conjecture when you want to debate.
    Nothing i am saying is opinion. Every crime i accuse has multitudes of video evidence. The evidence against Islam is abundant. Watch any of the videos ive posted and then offer an explanation for those actions. I guess you're going to keep falling back on separating the extremist from what you view as "normal" muslims. The text itself is extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    Of course you aren't alone in your views. No one ever is, no matter what topic. There were tons of people that were still for slavery in 1861 - enough to have a civil war.
    Every single one of those people protesting have the right to their opinions - that is one of the things that makes America such a great country.
    Yep. You're right. Now if only we had a leader as brave as Lincoln to go rescue all of the oppressed women from the slavery of Islam.

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    "About sixty-one percent of the contents of the Koran are found to speak ill of the unbelievers or call for their violent conquest; at best only 2.6 percent of the verses of the Koran are noted to show goodwill toward humanity. About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."

    Dr. Moorthy Muthuswamy

    Moorthy Muthuswamy was born and brought up in India where he was exposed to political Islam and jihad. His journey as a scientist began in 1979 when he enrolled in Birla Institute of Technology and Science, Pilani (India) to pursue a graduate degree in physics.

    Even well before the massive flow of funds from the likes of Saudi Arabia, certain attributes of Islam, the author noticed growing up, was driving fellow Indian Muslims into backwardness and violent radicalism. Fiery and hateful political speeches, a main course of the Friday mosque sermons in India have had a history of instigating rioting by Muslim mobs, and consequently, led to countless property damages and the loss of lives.

    He came to America in 1984 and went on to receive a doctorate in nuclear physics at Stony Brook University, New York. The author has published well over twenty peer-reviewed papers in nuclear and radiation physics and has held faculty positions in leading American academic institutions. In 1998, as the primary author, Dr. Muthuswamy was the first to show that radiation field aperture optimization technique can be an alternative to the then widely used and yet an inefficient technique known as beamlet-based optimization of radiotherapy beams. The technique proposed by the author has evolved to become a basis of modern implementation of Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy (IMRT).

    Increasingly concerned about the escalating Islamic threat to his native India, in the 1990s, Dr. Muthuswamy started to research this topic. Since 1998, he has extensively published on various aspects of political Islam.

    Early on, the author observed a startling phenomenon: in every Muslim-majority region of South Asia, since 1947, non-Muslim minority populations had been systematically decimated through deliberate processes, while in India, Muslims grew to become a significant minority. It didn't matter that the Muslims and the non-Muslims alike, shared culture, ethnicity, language, cuisine, and history, in these regions. This hitherto unknown data suggests that India faces an existential threat from political dynamics driven by Islam and that such a dynamics is a modern manifestation of what is commonly described in history texts as "Islamic Conquest."

    In his book Defeating Political Islam, the author gives a fascinating narrative of the multi-faceted process now underway to conquer India itself for Islam.

    Like most Americans the author too was taken aback by the audacity of the dastardly 9/11 attacks, although not surprised by the intent. These attacks and the subsequent American response made it clear to the author that his adopted country too needs to ramp-up its know-how of the new threat.

    The intellectual challenge of solving what is clearly an existential problem, too, has continued to drive his research -- and led to this book. Specifically, the physicist-author designed this book in order to help set forth processes that comprehensively neutralize the radical Islamic threat.

    The author resides in America.


    Here you go blank...... scientist.... since i know how much you value their studies.
    Last edited by Sinfix_15; 09-09-2013 at 12:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    I fail to see how my experience is different from yours. The individual who was a muslim for 30+ years i work with and speak to daily, ive also attended his church and have a lot of conversations regarding religion. I also referenced two brothers i am friends with who are active muslims. They themselves are not extreme, but their parents are. His father is very abusive and dominant. The females in his house are submissive. The two brothers are embarrassed by their actions, but dont speak out to keep the peace. No, i dont see the difference in my sample of life compared to your sample of life.

    Then you also have no personal experience.
    Your opinion is based upon what others have told you, not on what you have experienced first-hand. I don't see why you cannot understand that very basic concept. By your own words, your opinion is based upon what the media presents you (which is guaranteed to be mostly bad news, as that is what sells), and what people who already are anti-Islam are telling you about it. You haven't gone to weddings, mosques (based on your previous statements - although you state above that he is an active Muslim and you have gone to his church - that conflicts with your earlier statements), been involved in their culture yourself. It's no different that if you live in the 1840's and the media told you that slavery was good, and that a slave told you that life wasn't that bad. If you never stayed in the slave houses, went out to the fields, etc, you would have no personal experience, and would probably think that slaves had a decent life.

    In my case, I have been to weddings, I have been to cultural events, I have been involved in religious discussions, I have been and had dinner with Muslim families, I have celebrated holidays with them, etc. Daily submersion into their culture is personal experience.

    Like I said, if you can't see the difference, then this topic is pretty much over.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    And you have no thoughts are how easy it is to connect these actions to scripture?
    I have plenty of thoughts.
    Here is where you seem to lose it. You think that you can pop out a scripture, and then someone else should pop out a conflicting scripture. You seem to think that this is the same as a discussion about science, where there are competing facts that can be discussed.
    Religion is not science. It is based upon faith, and thus, opinion. Thinking that the Qur'an will have conflicting verses already shows that you need to study it more before starting this thread, if you wish to have a worthwhile discussion. Perhaps an atheism thread would be more suited to your current knowledge?



    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Islam is filth. How is this hate speech? Rape is filth, murder is filth... slavery is filth. This should not offend you unless you are a rapist, murder or slave owner. The crimes of Islam should not be ignored. Peaceful citizens who practice Islam are at least ignorant. There's some teachings from the bible that i follow, but i would never claim christianity as a whole because i cannot accept the crimes or lies of that religion. You cant cherry pick what you want from a religion without accepting the entirety of it. Islam is responsible for a lot of evil in this world. The casual observers of Islam condone these actions even if they dont participate in them.
    I am not offended by your posts. I don't know how many times I have to type that so that it sinks into your head.

    "The crimes of Islam should not be ignored." - So, now you believe that a book/religion is the source of crime, and not an individual. A person cannot choose what to do for themselves, and shouldn't be help personally accountable for their own actions? Yet, when a gun is involved, the crime was committed by the individual. This argument makes you seem like you are pulling a "John Kerry", which I do not think suits you.

    "Peaceful citizens who practice Islam are at least ignorant." - So, now you think that all 2.6 million Muslims are stupid. Nice....

    "Islam is responsible for a lot of evil in this world." - The people that commit the crimes are not responsible for their actions, it's the book! Now substitute the work "Handgun" for "Islam" and repeat your statement. Doesn't sound so good the second time around, does it?

    "The casual observers of Islam condone these actions even if they dont participate in them." - So, you believe all Muslims condone rape, murder, and child abuse automatically? Are you saying that your two Muslim friends condone these crimes? If so, then by associating with them, you condone these crimes as well, do you not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    It doesnt stand alone as an instruction guide. It is one of many instruction guides for evil.
    That is your opinion. Exactly what scripture are you thinking should be brought forward to "counter" this claim by you?
    This is an example of why this thread is nothing more than a smear campaign against those that follow a religion that you do not like.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Its way more than that...... this is another example of you minimizing it. Muslims allow child rape, child slavery, they cut the clitoris off young girls, they beat and abuse women sexually, disfigure them, oppress them............. women are pets according to Islam. They have the rights of a common dog.
    And, based upon your previous statements, you talk to people that condone this activity on a daily basis. Have you told them that this is how you feel?

    We can discuss those surahs that relate to women if you like. If you can keep the discussion to the surahs, and not go off onto tangents, then you might be surprised at how the discourse would proceed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Nothing i am saying is opinion. Every crime i accuse has multitudes of video evidence. The evidence against Islam is abundant. Watch any of the videos ive posted and then offer an explanation for those actions. I guess you're going to keep falling back on separating the extremist from what you view as "normal" muslims. The text itself is extreme.
    So, the acts of a few radicals condemns all that follow a religion to being either idiots or criminals?
    By that line of reasoning, then you, as an atheist, are either an idiot of criminal as well.
    Alfred Kinsey, Napoleon Bonaparte, Than Shwe, Jeffrey Dahmer, Benito Mussolini, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin - all atheists.
    Just taking one of them - Stalin ordered purges within the Soviet Union of any person deemed to be an enemy of the state (i.e. capitalists, theists). In total, estimates of the total number murdered under Stalin’s reign, range from 10 million to 60 million. His government promoted atheism with mass propaganda in school, and held a terror campaign against the religious. He crushed the Russian Orthodox Church, leveling thousands of churches and shooting more than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns between 1937 and 1938.

    Of course, you wouldn't blame atheism for those deaths - you would blame the man who ordered the deaths.

    Jeffrey Dahmer: "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…" [An interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994].

    No, atheism did not make him do it, and the Qur'an doesn't make people kill either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Yep. You're right. Now if only we had a leader as brave as Lincoln to go rescue all of the oppressed women from the slavery of Islam.
    You can be that guy.
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    I've trumped your every argument and you continue to say the same things over and over about me personally.

    I just posted part of a study done by a dr and scientist who lived under the oppression of Islam, who has more experience with it than 100 of you combined. Apply your argument of "you dont know any better" to that.

    You entire argument has two parts to it. Deflecting the conversation away from Islam and/or discrediting me personally.



    yes. The 2.6 million people who practice Islam are ignorant of all of the evil caused by their religion.

    Atheist is a label others created. I prefer to just be called logical. It's not a religion. Nothing persuades me. There's no book. There's no prayer. There's no influence.

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    Slowest Car on IA David88vert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    "About sixty-one percent of the contents of the Koran are found to speak ill of the unbelievers or call for their violent conquest; at best only 2.6 percent of the verses of the Koran are noted to show goodwill toward humanity. About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."
    I'm going to separate this statement from the background of the author to focus on the important part.

    The part that struck me as incorrect right off the bat was, "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."

    There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

    The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, but there are more than 219 verses in the Koran.

    Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

    Do you have a different list that shows 75% of the Koran?

    BTW - Your doctor isn't the one that came up with the figures. He is just repeating the conclusions of Bill Warner - a well-known crusader against Islam (Citizen Warrior Heroes: Bill Warner).

    I'm going to throw you a bone. If you really want to make a point about how Islam deals with no-believers, you need to look at the Qur'an in chronological order. That means that Surah Al-Taubah (Chapter 9) is the next-to-last revelation of Allah to Mohammed - hint, hint. Surah Al-Nasar is the last one, but it is mostly empty verses in regards to non-believers. The Qur'an is arranged from longest to shortest in chapters, not in chronological order, and it has a lot of repetition. Later revelations overwrite earlier ones.

    Now, I'll throw out a verse for you to ponder, since you said that you have active Muslim friends, but that all of the Muslims are looking to deceive non-believers.
    "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    I've trumped your every argument and you continue to say the same things over and over about me personally.

    I just posted part of a study done by a dr and scientist who lived under the oppression of Islam, who has more experience with it than 100 of you combined. Apply your argument of "you dont know any better" to that.

    You entire argument has two parts to it. Deflecting the conversation away from Islam and/or discrediting me personally.
    I just pointed out the facts about your post about the doctor of physics.
    You posted one statement and then some background on him - all stuff that you copied from somewhere without looking into it deeper.

    You haven't trumped anything. You are just being delusional if you think that.

    You are pulling a blank - ignoring what you don't like.
    I don't need to discredit you, you are doing that to yourself, unfortunately.

    Let me be clear - I don't care if you hate Islam or not. That's your choice completely.
    Last edited by David88vert; 09-09-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    I'm going to separate this statement from the background of the author to focus on the important part.

    The part that struck me as incorrect right off the bat was, "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers."

    There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

    The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, but there are more than 219 verses in the Koran.

    Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

    Do you have a different list that shows 75% of the Koran?

    BTW - Your doctor isn't the one that came up with the figures. He is just repeating the conclusions of Bill Warner - a well-known crusader against Islam (Citizen Warrior Heroes: Bill Warner).

    I'm going to throw you a bone. If you really want to make a point about how Islam deals with no-believers, you need to look at the Qur'an in chronological order. That means that Surah Al-Taubah (Chapter 9) is the next-to-last revelation of Allah to Mohammed - hint, hint. Surah Al-Nasar is the last one, but it is mostly empty verses in regards to non-believers. The Qur'an is arranged from longest to shortest in chapters, not in chronological order, and it has a lot of repetition. Later revelations overwrite earlier ones.

    Now, I'll throw out a verse for you to ponder, since you said that you have active Muslim friends, but that all of the Muslims are looking to deceive non-believers.
    "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51
    So you think the Dr, Scientist and author of the book below, who lived under the oppression of Islam himself, is simply quoting someone else and not offering his own opinion. Now you're attempting to discredit someone else, who has infinitely more experience with Islam than you do.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    So you think the Dr, Scientist and author of the book below, who lived under the oppression of Islam himself, is simply quoting someone else and not offering his own opinion. Now you're attempting to discredit someone else, who has infinitely more experience with Islam than you do.
    No, that is not what I am saying.
    I am saying that his figure of 2.6% that "bodes well for the non-believer" was not a calculation that he personally made. He based it upon the calculation of Bill Warner.
    I am not saying that it is not his own opinion, as it very well could be that as well. I am not "discrediting him" either - I am simply clarifying fact.
    BTW - another fact: The doctor moved to the US in 1984, in case you missed that. I hope that Islam wasn't oppressing him in the US.

    His 2.6% came from "Political Islam" - Political Islam // Articles // The "Good" in the Koran

    Here is more:
    "Bill Warner wanted to know exactly how many verses in the Qur'an are positive for non-Muslims, so he counted them. The answer is 245. That's pretty good. That adds up to 4,018 words in the Qur'an, and comprises 2.6 percent of the total Qur'anic text. " - But There Are Peaceful Passages in the Quran Too - WikiIslam

    Now, you were just saying that I was throwing rocks, but yet, you ignored my facts, and only attacked me with unfounded attacks - just like you did earlier in the thread.
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    "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51

    3:28
    YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.


    Your verse warns of becoming friends with an unbeliever. This is the typical fence that religion puts around people. It cautions them that anything on the outside of what they believe, is evil. "guard yourselves from them". Remember, "Allah is the best of deceivers"

    Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]

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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    No, that is not what I am saying.
    I am saying that his figure of 2.6% that "bodes well for the non-believer" was not a calculation that he personally made. He based it upon the calculation of Bill Warner.
    I am not saying that it is not his own opinion, as it very well could be that as well. I am not "discrediting him" either - I am simply clarifying fact.
    BTW - another fact: The doctor moved to the US in 1984, in case you missed that. I hope that Islam wasn't oppressing him in the US.

    His 2.6% came from "Political Islam" - Political Islam // Articles // The "Good" in the Koran

    Here is more:
    "Bill Warner wanted to know exactly how many verses in the Qur'an are positive for non-Muslims, so he counted them. The answer is 245. That's pretty good. That adds up to 4,018 words in the Qur'an, and comprises 2.6 percent of the total Qur'anic text. " - But There Are Peaceful Passages in the Quran Too - WikiIslam

    Now, you were just saying that I was throwing rocks, but yet, you ignored my facts, and only attacked me with unfounded attacks - just like you did earlier in the thread.
    Are you disputing either of their findings? I'm missing a point to be made other than minimizing their opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrong-doers." - Qur'an 5:51

    3:28
    YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.


    Your verse warns of becoming friends with an unbeliever. This is the typical fence that religion puts around people. It cautions them that anything on the outside of what they believe, is evil. "guard yourselves from them". Remember, "Allah is the best of deceivers"

    Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]
    Like I stated previously, the earlier writings are overwritten by the later writing. The Qur'an is not in chronological order. The instructions give in Al-i-Imran (chapter 3) occurred long before Al-Maeda (chapter 5). Al-Maeda is one of the last books and in regarded as being on of the last sets of instructions revealed by Allah to Mohammed. I know that it is confusing, and I am not attacking you with this, just trying to give you the insight on how to discuss it.

    I agree that some religious instructions attempt to "put fences around believers".

    The statement that you bring up, "Allah is the best of deceivers" is actually a good one. Allah is the God of Abraham, which the Christians and Jews believe in as well, yet they do not believe that he can lie or deceive. In this case, Islam takes a very different view of God than the Christians or Jews do - and that is an excellent theological discussion to have.

    As for you David Pryce-Jones quote, I have never lived in an Arab country, and do not know the customs practiced there. I know that I do not see that in the ones that I have met here, but then again, they have lived here for quite a while and have adapted to American customs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Are you disputing either of their findings? I'm missing a point to be made other than minimizing their opinions.
    Again, I am not "minimizing their opinions". This is something that you keep claiming with no basis.

    I am disputing their math. "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers." That's the quote that you posted from that doctor.

    There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

    The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, which means that the math would show you that only 219 verses would exist in the entire Koran. There are chapters with more verses than that.

    Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

    Do you have a different list of jihad verses that shows 75% of the Koran? That will be a very long list - since the Qur'an is about 6236 verses long, they are claiming that about 4677 are about jihad. Where are these extra 4500 verses about jihad?

    If I am missing something, let me know. I just don't see those extra verses.
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    Since you wanted to make a case that Islam is violent, let's put it in perspective with some facts.

    In the current Mexican drug war, more than 60,00 have been killed, with more than 5,000 more missing. Most of this has happened in Mexico, but CNN reported that there were several related killings in Alabama, Texas, and Georgia. Pretty close to home.

    Meanwhile, the absolute highest number that I could find was 11,267 deaths at the hands of Muslims extremists - worldwide for 2012. This was from the Blaze, so I figure that you might accept that. Every other report quotes MUCH lower numbers.

    Religion (Islamic or other) doesn't seem to tip the scales to one over the other. The desire for more money and power seem to have a lot of influence on people's actions though.

    As for the number of terrorist that commit attacks being predominately Muslim, the FBI says "not so". You might need to look out for Jewish terrorists more than Muslims.
    Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil | Washington's Blog


    Now, to be perfectly clear, I am not stating that "Islam is a religion of peace". I don't want you to try to put words in my mouth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    Again, I am not "minimizing their opinions". This is something that you keep claiming with no basis.

    I am disputing their math. "About seventy-five percent of Muhammad's biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers." That's the quote that you posted from that doctor.

    There are 164 verses in the Koran that deal specifically with jihad, not including those where Mohammed voiced his opinion of those that choose not to go on jihad, the rewards form heaven for jihadists (not sure if that is really a word), or where it is used as a generic word for "victory".

    The statement claims that 75% of all verses in the Koran are about jihad, which means that the math would show you that only 219 verses would exist in the entire Koran. There are chapters with more verses than that.

    Here are the 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

    Do you have a different list of jihad verses that shows 75% of the Koran? That will be a very long list - since the Qur'an is about 6236 verses long, they are claiming that about 4677 are about jihad. Where are these extra 4500 verses about jihad?

    If I am missing something, let me know. I just don't see those extra verses.
    The order of events as they happened in the Koran is not something i know, so information regarding how to read it is helpful. The wording of the accusation is

    75% of Mohammad's biography, the Sira, was about Jihad. 61% of the Koran speaks ill of unbelievers.

    They didnt say "75% of the Koran is about Jihad".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    The order of events as they happened in the Koran is not something i know, so information regarding how to read it is helpful. The wording of the accusation is

    75% of Mohammad's biography, the Sira, was about Jihad. 61% of the Koran speaks ill of unbelievers.

    They didnt say "75% of the Koran is about Jihad".
    Here is a page that you will find quite useful:
    Chronological Order of the Qur'an - WikiIslam

    Like I mentioned previously, the last chapters written are the one that you want to target. Surah At-Taubah is the one that you will probably be most interested in, as it makes the best foundation for your case with 129 verses that have a lot to say about non-believers.


    A biography about him is hardly the same as the Koran - that's what I was missing. That's something being written long after he is dead, and not relevant to the discussion topic of this thread then. I haven't read the Surrah, and only some of the Hadith.

    The links to the verses that speak about jihad might be of interested to you though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    Since you wanted to make a case that Islam is violent, let's put it in perspective with some facts.

    In the current Mexican drug war, more than 60,00 have been killed, with more than 5,000 more missing. Most of this has happened in Mexico, but CNN reported that there were several related killings in Alabama, Texas, and Georgia. Pretty close to home.

    Meanwhile, the absolute highest number that I could find was 11,267 deaths at the hands of Muslims extremists - worldwide for 2012. This was from the Blaze, so I figure that you might accept that. Every other report quotes MUCH lower numbers.

    Religion (Islamic or other) doesn't seem to tip the scales to one over the other. The desire for more money and power seem to have a lot of influence on people's actions though.

    As for the number of terrorist that commit attacks being predominately Muslim, the FBI says "not so". You might need to look out for Jewish terrorists more than Muslims.
    Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil | Washington's Blog


    Now, to be perfectly clear, I am not stating that "Islam is a religion of peace". I don't want you to try to put words in my mouth.
    The drug war in Mexico is rogue individuals with a clear purpose and they are unanimously alienated from society. The wolf in sheep's clothing is a lot more dangerous than the wolf with larger fangs. The "sheep's clothing" is what makes Islam, in my opinion, the greatest evil facing mankind today. I am against all of them and anyone who commits terrorist acts, but my criteria for assessing threat is a little different. To me, influence is a lot more dangerous than bullets. A politician is more dangerous than a tank, bomb or gun. The statistics you posted do not serve as a comfort for me or disprove anything. There's cases of Islamic terrorist trying to poison our water supply. They claim that they start forest fires. Almost every incident of Islamic terrorism is nameless and faceless with no regard for the target. The goal always seems to be to harm as many people as possible with no concern over who the people are.

    This is why its significant to me how negative the Koran is to nonbelievers, in the eyes of extremist, this book has managed to "militarize" everyone outside of the religion. The criteria for being an enemy of Islam is that you do not believe in Islam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    The drug war in Mexico is rogue individuals with a clear purpose and they are unanimously alienated from society. The wolf in sheep's clothing is a lot more dangerous than the wolf with larger fangs. The "sheep's clothing" is what makes Islam, in my opinion, the greatest evil facing mankind today. I am against all of them and anyone who commits terrorist acts, but my criteria for assessing threat is a little different. To me, influence is a lot more dangerous than bullets. A politician is more dangerous than a tank, bomb or gun. The statistics you posted do not serve as a comfort for me or disprove anything. There's cases of Islamic terrorist trying to poison our water supply. They claim that they start forest fires. Almost every incident of Islamic terrorism is nameless and faceless with no regard for the target. The goal always seems to be to harm as many people as possible with no concern over who the people are.
    That's your opinion, and I have no problem with you having that opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    This is why its significant to me how negative the Koran is to nonbelievers, in the eyes of extremist, this book has managed to "militarize" everyone outside of the religion. The criteria for being an enemy of Islam is that you do not believe in Islam.
    Luckily for us non-believers, the vast majority of Muslims do not see you as their enemy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    That's your opinion, and I have no problem with you having that opinion.



    Luckily for us non-believers, the vast majority of Muslims do not see you as their enemy.
    That is very possible. I've already put forth my role in this conversation as the skeptic. I dont really refute the idea that a portion of muslims, possibly a majority of muslims, live peacefully and intend me no harm. My disdain is for the religion itself, not the people, who in my opinion, have fell victim to it.

    Every religion has good aspects to it. I bet a large portion of people would find the satanic commandments agreeable if they were not introduced as the satanic commandments. Every religion is designed to "suck you in". It is within the realm of possibility that some muslims only see the good in Islam and use that good to live good and peaceful lives, the same as i do with religions. My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity. You can say that the people you know who are muslims, are not extremist terrorists, but you cant say that the extremist terrorists are not muslims. Some of the crimes of Islam are indefensible. My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam.

    The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong. It's scary to me how many people need religion as a crutch to be peaceful and even more alarming how many use religion as a justification to be extreme.

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    I'm going to read more before posting another scripture. Feel free to post scriptures of your own.

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    Also, let me try to put this in perspective.

    I do not believe in God, any god, from any religion. I view all religions as man made with some designed purpose. Whatever that purpose may be, good or bad, i cant help but start my thought process with the idea that every religion is based on deception. So i have a natural skepticism for everything religious. I view any text of anyone claiming to be a higher power as a lie. Based on that simple truth that every religion starts with deception, my investigation of them is always skeptical.

    I dwell more in the realistic function and purpose of religion rather than the spiritual one. When i read the Koran, i question why normal men create a higher power to build authority over a mass of people. Why cant these works just be guidance? why did they ever begin seeking ruling authority? So from that perspective, religion in general is inherently evil. I am not singling out Islam, Islam is just my highest concern regarding religions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    That is very possible. I've already put forth my role in this conversation as the skeptic. I dont really refute the idea that a portion of muslims, possibly a majority of muslims, live peacefully and intend me no harm. My disdain is for the religion itself, not the people, who in my opinion, have fell victim to it.

    Every religion has good aspects to it. I bet a large portion of people would find the satanic commandments agreeable if they were not introduced as the satanic commandments. Every religion is designed to "suck you in". It is within the realm of possibility that some muslims only see the good in Islam and use that good to live good and peaceful lives, the same as i do with religions. My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity. You can say that the people you know who are muslims, are not extremist terrorists, but you cant say that the extremist terrorists are not muslims. Some of the crimes of Islam are indefensible. My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam.

    The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong. It's scary to me how many people need religion as a crutch to be peaceful and even more alarming how many use religion as a justification to be extreme.
    "My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity" - So, again, you believe that a book written 1500 years ago is responsible for these crimes, and not the individuals who chose to commit the crimes? Personal responsibility is thrown out the window as soon as you can blame religion? This is not consistent with your views on guns.

    "My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam" - So, you have a problem with people that do not commit any crimes, live their lives in peace and for the betterment of society, just because they choose a religion that you do not like. Religious tolerance - something that this nation was founded upon, but you do not agree with.

    "you cant say that the extremist terrorists are not muslims" - I completely disagree with that statement, as do the actual statistics that I posted a link to.

    "The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong."
    Ahhh, a "utopian dreamer". It's great in sci-fi, but will never work in reality. As long as you have humans, you will have all of the crimes above.
    Consider the quote from Jeffrey Dahmer, the atheist/serial killer/cannibal - "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…" [An interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994].
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Whatever that purpose may be, good or bad, I cant help but start my thought process with the idea that every religion is based on deception.
    Aaaaaaaaaaand there's our problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Also, let me try to put this in perspective.

    I do not believe in God, any god, from any religion. I view all religions as man made with some designed purpose. Whatever that purpose may be, good or bad, i cant help but start my thought process with the idea that every religion is based on deception. So i have a natural skepticism for everything religious. I view any text of anyone claiming to be a higher power as a lie. Based on that simple truth that every religion starts with deception, my investigation of them is always skeptical.

    I dwell more in the realistic function and purpose of religion rather than the spiritual one. When i read the Koran, i question why normal men create a higher power to build authority over a mass of people. Why cant these works just be guidance? why did they ever begin seeking ruling authority? So from that perspective, religion in general is inherently evil. I am not singling out Islam, Islam is just my highest concern regarding religions.
    Your opinion - and as long as it works for you, then that's all that matters to you. Others will not have the same opinion, and what they believe works for them.

    Here's a question for you though - what makes you think that atheism doesn't start with a deception as well? Perhaps you might consider yourself an agnostic, rather than an atheist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    "My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam" - So, you have a problem with people that do not commit any crimes, live their lives in peace and for the betterment of society, just because they choose a religion that you do not like. Religious tolerance - something that this nation was founded upon, but you do not agree with.
    And what do we call this lack of religious tolerance?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Aaaaaaaaaaand there's our problem.
    Do you believe in Allah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    Your opinion - and as long as it works for you, then that's all that matters to you. Others will not have the same opinion, and what they believe works for them.

    Here's a question for you though - what makes you think that atheism doesn't start with a deception as well? Perhaps you might consider yourself an agnostic, rather than an atheist.
    I havnt really chosen a title for myself. It's not that important to me, atheist is what i assume most would call me. I dont feel a need to be labeled or belong to a group, my acceptance of that title is to appease others who value such labels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Do you believe in Allah?
    Do I believe in god? No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    "My issue with them is why they support a religion that is responsible for a large number of crimes against humanity" - So, again, you believe that a book written 1500 years ago is responsible for these crimes, and not the individuals who chose to commit the crimes? Personal responsibility is thrown out the window as soon as you can blame religion? This is not consistent with your views on guns.
    It is consistent with my beliefs on personal responsibility. If every gun i purchased came with a handbook instructing me to wage war on those who did not believe in what i did, then that would be a different story. What if i was a member of the KKK for no other reason than i liked being part of a club and enjoyed bon fires. I did not participate in any hateful action that the KKK endorsed. I am still a walking advertisement for a evil organization and i should take personal responsibility for that affiliation.

    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    "My grievance with peaceful muslims is that even though they may not be participating in those acts, they add numbers to the presence and spread of Islam" - So, you have a problem with people that do not commit any crimes, live their lives in peace and for the betterment of society, just because they choose a religion that you do not like. Religious tolerance - something that this nation was founded upon, but you do not agree with.
    Yes, this country was founded upon religious tolerance and our good nature is being used against us. We are tolerant of a religion who is not tolerant of our freedom of religion or freedom in general. Islam teaches that treachery is permitted to be victorious over infidels. Nothing about Islam embraces western culture. Their collective goal in having a presence here is to spread their way of life, not embrace ours. This is the disadvantage that every good in the world faces, that the rules we live by are not followed by those who oppose us. It's a simple idea..... you've seen Batman right?



    Quote Originally Posted by David88vert View Post
    "The world i want to live in is on where people decide not to rape, murder, steal or harm others for no other reason than that they realize its wrong."
    Ahhh, a "utopian dreamer". It's great in sci-fi, but will never work in reality. As long as you have humans, you will have all of the crimes above.
    Consider the quote from Jeffrey Dahmer, the atheist/serial killer/cannibal - "If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…" [An interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994].
    I dont see how my view is utopian. I dont believe people need religion to be good people. I am a walking example of that. If religion is what is holding society together, why doesnt religion govern us?
    Last edited by Sinfix_15; 09-09-2013 at 01:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Do I believe in god? No.
    So you also believe that Allah is a fictional character created by man for a designed purpose. Which would also mean that you believe the Koran is a lie, or deception, based on your choice of words?

    I fail to see where we are in disagreement here. If you believe the stories are lies, like me, then join me in questioning their purpose. That's what you do in the christianity threads. I'm a bit taken back by your inconsistency.


    Yes or no question, do you believe in Allah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Yes or no question, do you believe in Allah?
    You asked me, I gave you the answer, you quoted it, and then you asked me again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    You asked me, I gave you the answer, you quoted it, and then you asked me again?
    Your answer appears evasive. Just looking for clarification. Your emotional responses to this topic does not support the answers you are giving.

    You clearly have some connection to Islam, i am trying to find out what it is so that i can put your answers in context. Unlike myself, who is open and honest about my views, whether they be right or wrong, you put a lot of effort into hiding your affiliations, which ironically is also related to the current topic of discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Your answer appears evasive. Just looking for clarification. Your emotional responses to this topic does not support the answers you are giving.

    You clearly have some connection to Islam, i am trying to find out what it is so that i can put your answers in context. Unlike myself, who is open and honest about my views, whether they be right or wrong, you put a lot of effort into hiding your affiliations, which ironically is also related to the current topic of discussion.
    Just keep in mind that you're beliefs are only your beliefs. It doesn't make them right, it doesn't make them factual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Just keep in mind that you're beliefs are only your beliefs. It doesn't make them right, it doesn't make them factual.
    I'm already aware of that. I am asking you about your beliefs.

    More evasive responses.......

    i must say, this is becoming rather curious.

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    Care to offer a thought as conclusive as one of these Blank???

    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?
    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.

    If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell
    Quote Originally Posted by .blank cd View Post
    So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?

    The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?

    So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.

    You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.



    hmmm....... can you define hypocrisy for me? i know you're all big on correct definitions.

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    Is it not hilarious how blank applied nearly my EXACT argument against Islam towards Christianity.... yet here he is condemning me for the same logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    It is consistent with my beliefs on personal responsibility. If every gun i purchased came with a handbook instructing me to wage war on those who did not believe in what i did, then that would be a different story. What if i was a member of the KKK for no other reason than i liked being part of a club and enjoyed bon fires. I did not participate in any hateful action that the KKK endorsed. I am still a walking advertisement for a evil organization and i should take personal responsibility for that affiliation.
    This is definitely one of your best responses.
    So, basically, if you hang out with a Muslim, you are guilty by association then? Oops, you said that you have active Muslim friends. Have you told them that they are evil just for being Muslim yet? Have you told them that they are "walking advertisements for a evil organization"? How did they respond to that?

    I grew up around some KKK members. They weren't really concerned about race, they talked a lot about the federal government taking over states' rights though, and argued for smaller federal government. I guess that kind of talk made them evil though, right? That's just a sidebar, don't worry about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    Yes, this country was founded upon religious tolerance and our good nature is being used against us. We are tolerant of a religion who is not tolerant of our freedom of religion or freedom in general. Islam teaches that treachery is permitted to be victorious over infidels. Nothing about Islam embraces western culture. Their collective goal in having a presence here is to spread their way of life, not embrace ours. This is the disadvantage that every good in the world faces, that the rules we live by are not followed by those who oppose us. It's a simple idea..... you've seen Batman right?
    So, you believe that religious tolerance is a bad thing now..... at least, that is what it sounds like you are communicating....

    I find it interesting that you believe that this group of people keeps their "grand scheme to deceive" hidden for multiple generations, raising their children in western countries, and to live their entire lives within western cultures. I know quite a few Muslims that were born and raised in the US, and this "truth" that you seem to know has been completely hidden from them. Why would the Muslims hide this "truth" from their own children?
    The ones that I have met surely seem to embrace the American way of life.

    Have you heard of the "Ramadan Rush"? Tons of rich Arabs descend on London during the summer, racing their supercars around the streets, and living like westerners. They party in clubs, and basically break a lot of the rules. What does Islam have to gain by this behavior?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfix_15 View Post
    I dont see how my view is utopian. I dont believe people need religion to be good people. I am a walking example of that. If religion is what is holding society together, why doesnt religion govern us?
    So, you believe that people don't need religion to be good, but Islam forces them to be bad? You are a good person without religion, but they are automatically bad because they have a religion?
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