Some people say the U.S. a christian nation founded on christian principles. What is a christian principle?
Christian Principles....
Some people say the U.S. a christian nation founded on christian principles. What is a christian principle?
Idk what principle may mean to them but it was built on catholic/Christian beliefs and ways.
So what is a catholic/christian belief and way? And how do you think it relates to the founding of the United states?Originally Posted by -EnVus-
Would you consider "one nation under God" a Christian principle?
97 Del Sol VTEC
Nope. This was the phrase that was added to the pledge in the 50's during the red scare. Before this, we recited the pledge without the new phrase, and we did a Hitler-esque salute to the flag before the hand over the heart. This was known as the Bellamy Salute.
Im looking for a Christian-specific principle...
Just saying because everytime I hear US and religion in the same sentence it moves to seperation of church and state and then the pledge is wrong but not sure if that kind of thread or not. Do religious colonies count?
97 Del Sol VTEC
Its whatever kind of thread you want it to be. I'm just wanting to know what people believe the answer is...
Please explain more about the religious colonies
The nations founders understood freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.
If you read the founding documents, I would say they were smart to not shove God down anyone's throat, but there are strong Christian principles involved.
Christian principles I'm sure there is some in the Bible. You can figure this out on your own
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I'd also say some christian principles aren't necessarily only specific to Christianity. It would be foolish to think only Christianity is "moral".
But I think its a pretty wildly accepted view that the founders were Christian, and had christian influence. All men created equal
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"Of" includes "from"
I've read the constitution. Did you know "God" is not mentioned in it at all, anywhere?
So what are they? There are a lot of principles in the Christian bible. Murder being one of them. I want to know one Christian-specific principle that this country was founded on.
Settlers coming to the "New World" to escape religious persecution so they could worship their beliefs freely without the King and Church of England for example Mass. Bay colony. It was early settlement but still.
Debate on this would be totally different now and then. Some people might think based on "Christian principles" because the of the beliefs of the founders. I agree with God not being forced on people.
97 Del Sol VTEC
I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of arguing what you already know so you can twist and try to make a point.
I'm also not going to do your research for you.
I've posted what you ask plenty of times go back and read
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So then if these principles arent necessarily christian specific, would it not be foolish to say that this country was founded on christian principles, since the principles that you're refering to apply to all religions?
That may be widely accepted that they were christans, but it doesnt change the fact that only some of them were christians, some were not.
I accept this
Some of the founding fathers were christian, most were anti-clericals and deists, which were very different from orthodox christians and catholics.
It all started with the ships that set off to sea in navigating the globe for new land and life in in 1400's. The ships were asked to be blessed by the church for a safe and pleasant voyage...English Christians in the 16th and 17th centuries who wished to separate from the Church of England and form independent local churches were influential politically under Oliver Cromwell, who was himself a separatist. They were eventually called Congregationalists.[13] The Pilgrims who established the first successful colony in New England were separatists.[14]
These colonist also Christian dwellers are the founder members to build the new Constitution of governed law as in or under Gods worship.
Many types of religions was abroad and were present in the movement but only Catholic and Christian believes prevailed.
So what about the people that were already living here before those ships got here?
Easy answer seeing how I am of great decedent from these people you speak of....They worshiped a god of the sky as do may look up today for God.
Also remember...
There is no direct mention of God in the Constitution, except in the formation of the date used in the document: "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.
Thats the long, government-y way of writing A.D.1787
this is why i try to stay out of most of your threads. Even in the face of direct evidence that the founders (or at least some of them) believed, you dismiss it because it doesnt fit your agenda.
The Founders escaped England and realized that in order to have a society they wished was better than where they came from, there had to be :
Equal Rights for all mankind
No monarch or King, a division of powers.
Certain unalienable rights, ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR
Also, The mention of GOD (Natures God) is in the declaration.
In the constitution they were wise not to put God in the body because they understood they wanted everyone to have freedom of religion, to choose to practice whatever they wanted , and yes in your case, practice nothing. That is everyones right. I think by putting GOD in the constitution they knew that would be interpreted as imposing religion on someone which they most certainly did not want to do.
Christianity has a certain set of philosophies and doctrines that the founders adhered to and used to frame their documents, just like im sure Arab countries look to the Koran, China to Buddhism, so on and so forth. Those philosophies arent specific TO christianity, but in this context the founders were christians, so that is why that distinction is made.
Good for you, they were smart, and didnt pass any laws or rules that limit you practicing your faith, or lack of. YOu are free to do as you choose, so long as you respect other peoples beliefs.
But its more and more apparent that is not what you want to do. you want to try and create this religion argument again that somehow you feel persecuted because you are an atheist. Or you want to make fun of others because they believe and you dont. Simply not true. YOure also in a dominantly christian nation, you are in the minority. Good thing for you the USA is tolerant of all people. If you did this stuff in say..............Iran or Iraq, you would have been beheaded by now.
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I simply do not agree with the christian view that gays shouldnt be allowed to marry. That is against my belief system. I also , dont agree with the gay lifestyle, but im not going to say that "god hates them" or that "god wants them to die" or any other crazy zany statements. I believe you love who you love, and if they want to get married, they should be able to.
But, i understand i am in a predominantly christian country that opposes gay marriage. So itll be some time before people with my thinking come to power.
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LOL. It's not my agenda! That's what A.D. means! Lol. Look it up. Lol
I would say this country was founded on Christian principles. I would also say it was founded just as much on the principles of Locke, Hobbs, and Smith. Saying this country was founded on Christian principles is only a problem if it is twisted to justify theocratic elements into our government (e.g., adding "under god" to the pledge).
The problem is that it inherently does. You could argue that the founding fathers may have referenced morals from religious texts, but it still doesn't mean morality is strictly biblical because it's not. Morality is innate. There is no specific "principle" that applies only to Christianity, that doesn't also apply to Islam, Buddhism, or simply being human. Furthermore, religious freedom, a principle which we can agree the country was founded on, is not really a principle of Christianity at all, in fact the bible is clearly against it.
I don't think it inherently does, maybe you meant to say "inevitably". Saying certain christian principles influenced the founders doesn't mean that ONLY christian principles influenced them or that ALL christian principles influenced them. That is a logical disconnect. I agree that some people would like it to mean that but such people will not be stopped by semantics anyways so why argue about it?
iPhone typo. My mistake. Lol.Cause I was bored. Lol
Haha I feel you. I'm just saying arguing about whether or not the US was founded on "christian principles" is just a semantic argument when the real discussion should be about the role of religion in influencing policy. That is a worthwile argument to have. I prefer to bypass the catchphrases and talk about the core issues.
This. What I believe the typical misunderstanding is, is that people misinterpret basic morality as "christian principles". The religion of the founding fathers is(to me) irrelevant, because the only thing we can be certain of is that religious influence isn't allowed in our government. Vote Santorum.
Hrm... first to the OP, religious principles are like how Vtekkid pointed out: all men are created equal... inalienable rights, etc. Biblically speaking, this refers to how we are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. I can expound more but will leave it at that for now.
As for the separation of church and state, it was not to keep the religion out of state affairs but to keep the state out of religious affairs. Religion is very much like race if you want to draw the analogy... A person is who they are and to say that a person can separate themselves from what it is they are, then that's impossible... (like asking a black person to remove their blackness while in public office... can't be done). Religion really is that personal to those who pursue it.
On the other hand, the separation of church and state was so that the state could not mandate a religion upon it's people, such as what the King of England tried to do to the colonies. (If I recall, the King was Catholic and the colonies were largely Protestant... but don't quote me on that)
In regards to the country being founded on christian principles, you need only look at those who wrote the Constitution to base your judgement.
The simple term "christian principles" is a ridiculous notion. All matters referencing moral law can be branched accross all of the major religous groups. So to say in absolution that the U.S. was founded on "christian principles" is ignorant. You could say the same for any number of countries. It is a propaganda phrase to appeal to the ignorant people who assume that christianity is the "supreme and right" religion. If you keep your mind open you would see that most religion is based on the same moral code of conduct. This being said I would hope that; even though they were not as educated as most today; our founding fathers would have thought in advance about the possiblities of people of different religous background to there own would be in our country one day.
It was the first religion to have that sort of founded doctrine. Before christianity you had pagans and romans/greeks.
Hence why it is credited first as having the "moral" foundations that most people attribute as christian in principle.
Thats not to say that christianity is the ONLY moral or correct religion, not at all. but it was the first pretty much.
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Yes, after Norse, celts, roman pagans, native pagans, and Mithraism, christianity was the first.
Had it not been for a violent Christian uprising in the 4th ish century, you would all be praying to Mithras.
Judaism and most Eastern religions are christian religions
it was the first modern religion out of all the main ones. PERIOD
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What about the moral code written by the Egyptian Pharoh....which to my knowledge is very similar to the moral laws of christianity....that was carved in stone in the shape of a column "a few years" before established christianity.
What does that even mean? Lol
That's like saying cars are the first modern mode of transportation out of all the main modes of transportation.
Christianity wasnt the first religion, nor was it the first religion thats still practiced today (what you mean by modern I guess). Even modern Protestantism is a relatively new concept historically.
It is the most widespread though. I'll give you that. Lol
I wasn't even gonna mention Hammurabi since it was more or less laws, but even that predates christianity. In any (and every) case, morality is innate. One of the perks of being a human.
Not joking. It's all the same thing. Just different versions...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
I think I'm done here.
Anyone who says that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are the "same thing" in a conversation this detailed, while refusing to acknowledge the existence of Easter religions such as Buddhism, Shintoism, and Hinduism is either hilariously misinformed or here to troll.
Or in this case none of the above. Other posters didn't see the need to be as detailed. At least I was on base with my gross generalization. I didn't say "all eastern religions" in my post. And Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all abrahamic religion and all are connected in some way. I think I'm in the clear here.
I think I'm done here.
Anyone who says that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are the "same thing" in a conversation this detailed, while refusing to acknowledge the existence of Easter religions such as Buddhism, Shintoism, and Hinduism is either hilariously misinformed or here to troll.
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