First Church of Atheism. It's real. It is a church which make atheism a religion. It's ministers are ordained and are legally able to perform weddings and such.
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First Church of Atheism. It's real. It is a church which make atheism a religion. It's ministers are ordained and are legally able to perform weddings and such.
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When I have children, they will have the same access to the same knowledge I have, furthermore, the will have the same options of following whichever paths they choose in life. My wife, a believer of god, believes the same. But I refuse to take part in any kind of forced indoctrination.
This is definitely something I've thought long and hard about. I know that if I'm wrong in not believing in "god", and if it really is a god of peace and love, that I will be judged based on my actions during life and he will understand that I used my head and reason instead of blindly following dogma. If I'm wrong, and god is the same as depicted in the bible, then assuredly most of the people you know are going to burn in hell for eternity anyway, so we'll be in good company. If I'm right, then I'll have lived a great life, and raised children to know that it's ok to think for themselves.
Yes please do. but, i wanna see where the scientific method was used...i don't want to see a thesis or article where Dr.X says it is impossible because X natural law. After all, we are talking about miracles here....miracles are done by the supernatural or those that are above and not bound by our natural laws. After all, if God was bound by physics...He wouldn't be God at all.Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?
I knew i was right, God never failed you my friend....humanity did. The Bible is not the "only" written account. What about other cultures that had a monotheistic society? How do you know they did not worship the same Judeo-Christian God yet called Him something else? How can you say God is evil and He damns 90% of humanity? You are obviously referring to the Old Testament. God established certain laws for humanity to follow. They did not and were given the punishment for transgression. Much like our own civil society these days. If you murder, rape, steal, cheat, ect....and transgress the established laws of the land....you will pay the consequences. Does that make our judicial system evil? Is society evil for wanting to impose punishment or retribution on those that break the law? No, God never punished an innocent man. The law of the land was given as well as what the punishment was. People broke the law and they were punished.
Evil is entirely dependent on the society that experiences it. for example, before the 1960's blacks were treated as 2nd rate citizens. Rewind another century or so and they were enslaved. They were viewed as no better than animals and said to not even possess a soul. If that were to happen in this current society it would be viewed as inhumane and evil, yet at that time it was the norm and no immorality was found in it. Interestingly though, in scripture some slaves were paid, some sold themselves into slavery, and every 7 years all slaves were to be freed. The New Testament actually goes into detail that slaves were not to be mistreated or to be shown cruelty.
God does not condemn anyone to hell. He gives us all free will and free choice. We are equipped with a rational thought processing mind. We and given the blueprint on what we are to do and the consequences if we don't. In all reality, we condemn only ourselves based on our choices.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
Also if I'm not mistaken the supreme court ruled that atheism was indeed a religion. And this ruling was handed down at the request of a group of atheist that wanted protection under the first amendment and the whole freedom of religion thing. On another note I do comend you for your stand on letting your children decide for themselves. I believe every parent regardless of faith should do this.
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read my above post to see that our own "morality" will not count. You will be judged on what God has laid down as the path to righteousness...we can't exactly say its unfair. After all, I personally wasn't involved in writing our constitution and find some things unfair. Does that mean that if i choose to ignore certain laws that i don't have to pay the penalty? Sadly, no. I give you a thumbs up for this response. It shows me that you do actually have an opinion that is all your own, as far as your children go.This is definitely something I've thought long and hard about. I know that if I'm wrong in not believing in "god", and if it really is a god of peace and love, that I will be judged based on my actions during life and he will understand that I used my head and reason instead of blindly following dogma. If I'm wrong, and god is the same as depicted in the bible, then assuredly most of the people you know are going to burn in hell for eternity anyway, so we'll be in good company. If I'm right, then I'll have lived a great life, and raised children to know that it's ok to think for themselves.
How often do you think of death? Of " what if there is an afterlife, is there anything after death, is life really meaningless?" I would seriously like to know.
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If you prove to me that magical fairies don't exist, I will use your method. Lol. Once again, you're shifting the burden of proof. It's not on science to prove god exists, the burden of proof is on the believerOriginally Posted by Vteckidd
If I said I had a magical wish granting genie in my hand, you would probably say I was full of shit, right? Then what if I said "prove to me there isn't a magical wish granting genie"?
I try not to think about death, and instead focus on the thoughts about life. But I know that when I die, my body will decompose and that there is no afterlife. My mind will return to the state it was before it existed in the first place. People who think life is meaningless are misguided. Life is what you make of it while you're alive. The only eternal life that exists are in the memories of the living, whether your life was spent doing good or evil. Albert Einstein, an atheist, will be remembered forever due to his contributions he made to society while he was alive. Adolf Hitler, a theist, will be remembered forever due to his actions.
This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.
If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell
But the fact remains that you are not 100% sure what comes after death...correct?I try not to think about death, and instead focus on the thoughts about life. But I know that when I die, my body will decompose and that there is no afterlife. My mind will return to the state it was before it existed in the first place. People who think life is meaningless are misguided. Life is what you make of it while you're alive. The only eternal life that exists are in the memories of the living, whether your life was spent doing good or evil. Albert Einstein, an atheist, will be remembered forever due to his contributions he made to society while he was alive. Adolf Hitler, a theist, will be remembered forever due to his actions.
Repentance is more than saying im sorry. God searches the hearts of man not the outward appearance. When a man or woman comes to a revelation of Jesus and what He did, they realize their faults and the wrong they have done, confess and ask for forgiveness and then honestly try to not commit the same trespasses....that man/woman is forgiven. God knows who is honest about repentance and who isn't. I have asked forgiveness for things i did that i really didn't feel bad about, then at times i cried and pleaded with God to forgive me for other things. God knows what was in my heart. With your own backround in christianity, im sure you knew very well who was sincere and who wasn't.This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.
If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?
The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?
So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.
You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.
Complete cessation of brain function, then decomposition
So if I rape and kill a bunch of children, then come to a realization that I was genuinely out of my mind, and I repented, and went to my grave never killing or raping again, I can get into heaven. But if I fall in love with another man, and do everything I would to him as I would with a woman, to my grave with the same man the whole time, happy every minute of it, I'll go to hell. If I live my life the way I want, and completely reject everything about god and religion, and then die, and then find out that it was in fact all real, I'll still go to hell. This is how your bible is laid out. This is what you believe?
A Wisconsin circuit court of appeals ruled that an atheistic group meeting was protected under the same rights that a religious group had under the establishment clause of the constitutions. Atheists, as US citizens, have the same rights as religious people under the constituion.
You stated earlier that science had tested some of these things and proved them false...show me the proof.So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?
Im not saying that The Old Testament no longer applies or has no meaning. But, if you did read the Bible cover to cover you would have read that in the Law was only death as no man could keep it. But the sacrifice that God made as Jesus the Savior, fulfilled the Law and He could then cover our sins in His blood. You cannot simply look at it as a white or black. The Law was more than just the 10 commandments as Grace is more than just confessing Jesus as Lord.The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?
You missed my whole point. Slavery now would be considered as evil and inhumane, but in that period of time yes it was the norm. And also the civil rights movement, Your grandparents ( if they lived in the u.s.) probably saw blacks as niggers and worth nothing and were probably very prejudice and racist...these days, things like this are looked down upon. Once again, I think you missed the point.So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.
Yes God does have His will, our freedom lies in the action of us choosing to obey it or not. It is also clear in Federal and State law what is constituted as a crime and the punishments for it. Yet you do not seem to object to it...why?You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.
If you were sincere and truly turned from it and actually tried to make a difference...yes you would be forgiven. Like I said, your idea of fair is not the same as Gods' apparently. The reason you would go to hell for homosexuality is the fact that there is no repentance involved. You do not see it as wrong, yet God declares it so. Once again, I don't believe in all the laws of our land, yet if i break them i will be punished. Yes that is what I believe, it is as simple as natural law of cause and effect....The justice system of most civilized nations mirrors that of the Judeo-Christian religion. How do I know this? Because it is thousands of years old as our modern justice system is not.So if I rape and kill a bunch of children, then come to a realization that I was genuinely out of my mind, and I repented, and went to my grave never killing or raping again, I can get into heaven. But if I fall in love with another man, and do everything I would to him as I would with a woman, to my grave with the same man the whole time, happy every minute of it, I'll go to hell. If I live my life the way I want, and completely reject everything about god and religion, and then die, and then find out that it was in fact all real, I'll still go to hell. This is how your bible is laid out. This is what you believe?
What I see here has not changed, you still seem to have more of a problem with the "church", "religion", and "christians" in general. Your real underlying problem still isn't with God Himself...I would like to conduct an experiment with you....if you are truly "open minded" then you would be willing to find what actual "truth" was yes? I mean to say that, whether the evidence pointed towards God existing or not, you would choose your beliefs on whatever was most factual. So, that being said, I would like for you to try something. Pm me for details.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
This is a very common logical fallacy when dealing with religious belief. You assume that either he is is right or you are are right when those are not the only two options. It could be that you both are wrong. Maybe there is a God but he hates Christians and loves atheists. There could be a God who doesn't care what you believe either way. To assume that believing in Christianity is the "safe" choice is simply illogical.
How is it illogical. Lets assume that there does indeed exist an All Mighty Creator who designed everything with intent and purpose. This being, who created intelligent humanity with a conscience is also intelligent. It is known fact that all intelligent beings/species try to communicate (after all, that is how our race became civil yes?). Would it not then be common sense that the Supreme Intelligence would want to communicate with the intelligent beings that He Himself formed? Would not this being want to establish a relationship with other said intelligence? Think about it, every creature on earth establishes some sort of relationship with their kind. There have been tests done by many that showed isolation is actually harmful to species capable of any level of intelligence. If every animate form of life on earth seeks to establish relationship and communication, how then can you assume that said "God" would not do the same? I can also go into detail as to why the Abrahamic God is the most rational and probable ultimate being if you are interested.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
So... Can science prove how the universe came to be? Or at least how the earth came to be?
THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING MADE THAT DID NOT HAVE A PURPOSE
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Btw, many of us can only gain so much knowledge on our own. We read others findings of spending their lifetime studying specific fields. Even then, many of the "experts" come up with "supporting facts" that oppose one another.
I think it's going to take faith whether you believe their is ONE God who created everything, or that the earth just happened (and there are other beliefes, but seems like these are the main two).
It really doesn't help talking about these issues over the internet I have found. Lol. But most of these people are set in their ways. Even to make the most valid point in this thread, it will be disregarded as something "that radical,XXXXX, who believes in 'X', which I don't agree with."
THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING MADE THAT DID NOT HAVE A PURPOSE
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Slice it all you want. Not only is there an established church of atheism its also legally recognized as a religion.
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You think that website is an established church of atheism, huh? Lol. You had to reach REALLY far.
Not really a reach. First thing that pops up when you search for church of atheism on Google. Atheists now have ordained ministers and are classified as a religion so I'm not sure where your basis for the argument is. Unless your point is that without a brick and mortar location something cannot be classified as a religion. If that's the case we will have to further identify the criteria that needs to be met for something to be called a religion. Last time I checked it was a group of people that share a belief in the existance of god. That's not solely based on a belief that he DOES exist, just that it is a shared belief. So your belief that he doesn't exist classifies. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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But He doesn't. As intelligent and supreme as He supposedly is, He doesn't show himself, like Jesus supposedly did years ago. So does He or does He not want to communicate with us? Why wait until we die for the 'ultimate test'? It's like "I won't show myself or give you proof of my existence, but you have to trust me on this. I'm here..... and if you don't believe that, you're doomed!"
He gives us such a wonderful rational brain but then demands that we not be rational? i.e. question Him and His existence? Because that would doom us?
"why the Abrahamic God is the most rational and probable ultimate being" - You describe Him like you know him personally. You only know Him by how others (and the Bible) describe Him...think about that.....
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
Absolutely. In order for it to be a religion, atheists would have to share a common belief. Since NOT believing in something doesn't qualify as a common belief, we can rule that out. Also there would have to be some kind of symbol and deity that atheists all worship, like the bible, Jesus, god. Since there are no symbols like that for atheists, we have to rule that out as well.
Have you heard of a-tooth fairy-ism? The religion where the people believe that the tooth fairy doesn't exist?
And yes, a church is a brick and mortar location. Not a website
A firmly held idea or conviction is the definition of belief. You have a strong conviction that god does not exist. But no matter what I say you will refuse to except it.
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I still don't think you're comprehending the definition. In order to believe something doesn't exist, it would imply that something existed in the first place. You have a strong belief that god exists. I do not believe god exists. This is an entirely different concept than believing he doesn't exist.
Do you believe that Batman doesn't exist in real life? No, because he doesn't exist. So you do not believe batman exists.
If, however, god was real and presented himself to the human race, and we were 100% sure without a doubt it was him, and THEN all atheists said they STILL didn't believe he existed you would be exactly correct.
"But no matter what you say, I will refuse to accept it."
This is called confirmation bias.
If you could show me one iota of proof that atheists believe that god doesnt exist, without using a logical fallacy, using correct definitions, I would Accept what you said as true. That's the funny thing about believers. They want to use science to try to prove us wrong, but when it ends up proving them wrong, science is faulty
this is why i hate having these discussions because you go off on some tangent , so now we are arguing whether atheists are a "religion" or not, rather than talking about the original issue.
Again, you cannot prove god DOESNT exist, and no one else can prove that he DOES. Why not just LEAVE IT AT THAT?
Why do you feel you have to prove (even though you KNOW you cannot) that god doesnt exist? If no one is forcing you to change your beliefs , why are you forcing yours on everyone else?
Serious question
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If i want to believe that my dog is the messiah, im allowed to, regardless of what YOU think.
Just like you can believe whatever you want.
I agree there should be a line about governing using your religion, that is not right, even though the christians do outnumber everyone and this was a christian founded nation (as discussed before).
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Serious answer.
Go back and read who ends up going off on a tangent. People ask questions, I give answers based on the information I have. the information says atheism is not a religion. Look it up If you feel in your heart of hearts that it is, then good for you
No one can prove something doesn't exist. This is impossible. You can prove something exists, or it simply doesn't exist until further information is provided. I'm giving readily available information. I'm not spouting beliefs. I haven't said one word about what I believe. To tell you the honest truth, I try not to use the word "believe". Either information is true or not true. If I don't know if it's true or not, I'll research. If it check out great, if not, on to the next one.
Ok. That's what you believe.
Now that that's established, we can set that aside. What evidence of this claim do you use to support your conjecture?
But I don't assume that and neither does any atheist. Even if I did, I don't understand what the rest of your point is. It's a bunch of loose associations and even more assumptions which is supposed to make me conclude that God will send people to hell if they are atheists?
I know this wasn't directed at me but it is an important issue to discuss.
The issue is that atheists agree with your statement but most religions don't. They say that God DOES exist, 100% for sure, FACT.
No one is trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They are trying to say that NO ONE KNOWS. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything here. This is simply a forum for discussion. If you don't want to be part of the discussion, I don't think you have to worry about blank.cd showing up at your church, on your TV, or anywhere else for that matter yelling at you for believing in God.
WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT OTHER RELIGIONS BELIEVE ???? Atheists belive god DOESNT EXIST, religious people believe he DOES exist. SINCE NONE OF US HAVE FUCKING DIED AND BEEN ABLE TO REPORT BACK WHETHER ITS TRUE OR NOT, NONE OF US KNOWS.
THe problem is that both sides try to prove the other one wrong by advocating THEIR WAY/BELIEFS are correct based on their interpretation of religion.
Its not a discussion, its a forum for him to advocate that hes right. Hes not respecting ANYONE elses views, he saying "im right, and this is why".No one is trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They are trying to say that NO ONE KNOWS. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything here. This is simply a forum for discussion. If you don't want to be part of the discussion, I don't think you have to worry about blank.cd showing up at your church, on your TV, or anywhere else for that matter yelling at you for believing in God.
Im saying he can believe in whatever he wants, but trying to say other people are wrong makes him JUST AS BAD as the religious right wing nuts.
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Youve offered nothing to defend your argument god doesnt exist. not IMO
no one can offer you evidence that god DOES exist because, newsflash, THERES NO SOLID PROOF, thats what its called FAITH or BELIEF.
You started the topic trying to insinuate that people who believe in god are as dumb as the north koreans who believe that fans kill them in their sleep. I said that was a horrible comparison because we can sleep in a room and see if you die with a fan on, you cannot simple go down a road and meet GOD to see if he exists and then report back.
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So religious people can believe with 100% certainty god is real, and you don't care, but when I say there's no evidence to support this, I'm just as bad as right wing religious nuts? Hmmm
if thats what you think then you have serious reading comprehension problems.
If atheists dont believe, GREAT, GOOD FOR THEM, I DONT CARE. YOu can believe there is no evidence to support this, but thats NOT what you are doing. YOu are telling people they are wrong, rather than just saying "i dont believe in that".
Im not telling you you are WRONG for being an atheist, im telling you youre wrong for telling others THEY are wrong based on YOUR beliefs.
if you dont understand that, there really isnt anything to discuss further.
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here ill help you, you could have answered your own question
THe problem is that both sides try to prove the other one wrong by advocating THEIR WAY/BELIEFS are correct based on their interpretation of religion.
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What you fail to realize is that Jesus was God. He did show Himself to the people. He did communicate with His creation. The Gospels our full of words that the Creator spoke directly to His creation. You can question His existence, the Bible does not forbid it. God wants you to search for the truth and He wants you to put in the work. I do know Him personally, I had a very real very personal relationship with the Creator. It was not based on what others told me or taught, it was a result of me searching what the truth was. Go ahead and dismiss it, but I know for a fact that He is real....and if you really wanted to...so could you.But He doesn't. As intelligent and supreme as He supposedly is, He doesn't show himself, like Jesus supposedly did years ago. So does He or does He not want to communicate with us? Why wait until we die for the 'ultimate test'? It's like "I won't show myself or give you proof of my existence, but you have to trust me on this. I'm here..... and if you don't believe that, you're doomed!"
He gives us such a wonderful rational brain but then demands that we not be rational? i.e. question Him and His existence? Because that would doom us?
"why the Abrahamic God is the most rational and probable ultimate being" - You describe Him like you know him personally. You only know Him by how others (and the Bible) describe Him...think about that.....
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
Sounds like you're missing the point of the thread as well, and probably misinterpreting everything I'm saying. Vteckidd, if criticizing of religion offends you, please feel free to click the X button on your browser
Are you sure about this? From what It says in the bible, questioning God is a damnable offense.
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