An interesting article I read....

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Take a few minutes and give this a read. Think about it, and give me a reply. Basically what you think about what you've read, like a summary of sorts. It may not seem like this belongs here, but after I get some responses, I will explain more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

[thesammy]

I just read the intro and origin.

I sleep with an electric fan on EVERY night, along with my ceiling fan. Doesn't matter if it's 20 degrees outside. Lol. So far, I'm alive. Haven't had any problems that I'm aware of.
Sounds kinda bogus. It very well could have been the govt. trying to cut down on electricity used.

[geoff]

I would imagine you are going to try to use this as a reference to portray religion as a form of mind/population control. I see the point you are trying to make....a very small point. Except you leave out one thing, common sense. The south korean govt tells the people they will die if they leave the fan on( they are using this so as to save money on electricity)....yet one would soon figure out that when know one died when it was accidently left on....that it was bogus. You are trying to say that religion ( mainly christianity i presume) is the same. Yet this religion has been around for around 6k years or more, people have died for this belief ( high officials too) and despite the many many many attempts to put it to an end...it still survives. why?

[thesammy]

I hadn't been on IA in like two years, but if there is one person I remember, it's Geoff. Lol. Still at it, and that's a good thing.

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I would imagine you are going to try to use this as a reference to portray religion as a form of mind/population control. I see the point you are trying to make....a very small point. Except you leave out one thing, common sense. The south korean govt tells the people they will die if they leave the fan on( they are using this so as to save money on electricity)....yet one would soon figure out that when know one died when it was accidently left on....that it was bogus. You are trying to say that religion ( mainly christianity i presume) is the same. Yet this religion has been around for around 6k years or more, people have died for this belief ( high officials too) and despite the many many many attempts to put it to an end...it still survives. why?

Abrahamic religion has only been around for about 3000 years. Christianity is a little more than 1000 years old. Conversely, 1000 years from now, people may (or may not) believe in fan death because the belief will be propagated in the same manner. Like religion, it is passed down from generation to generation. And like religion, it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

[Vteckidd]

. And like religion, it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

one inherent flaw in your hypothesis is that the fan death can be proven not to kill people, you cannot prove Jesus was not the son of God or that he died for someones sins, or that the bible isnt true.

Let me preface this with the statement that im pretty much against organized religion because i think its just a money making scheme. Very few churches really exist for your benefit. And i also dont agree with people who think their religion is right and try to press their beliefs on others.

Now, having said that, religion is based on FAITH, faith is something you believe in despite really having any factual data to support your belief. Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God, since none of us can actually physically ask God (according to their religion) we must take this on faith.

YOu, an atheist , believe there is no such thing as god, that is your right. YOu believe there is no proof he exists, while others believe he does. The fact is neither one of you can prove the other person wrong.

My problem with religion is how it seems to infect peoples motives for governing. I think religion should be left to your local church, parish, witches circle, whatever. It should really be left out of politics.

[Vteckidd]

It really comes down to 1 simple statement:

You cannot prove god DOESNT exists, and they cannot prove that god DOES exist.

So each of you believes what they want to believe, based on FAITH.

Science really has nothing to do with it.

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one inherent flaw in your hypothesis is that the fan death can be proven not to kill people, you cannot prove Jesus was not the son of God or that he died for someones sins, or that the bible isnt true.

Science has proven that immaculate conception and virgin birth in humans is impossible. The catholic church has concurred. So if Jesus existed, he was the son of a man.

[Vteckidd]

Science has proven that immaculate conception and virgin birth in humans is impossible. The catholic church has concurred. So if Jesus existed, he was the son of a man.

i think you are mixing immaculate conception with jesus birth.

The catholic church (im not catholic so i may be wrong) as i understand it has a set of doctrines or dogma put forth by the Popes over the years and one of them said Mary was the immaculate conception born free of sin and full of grace. That has to do with MARYs BIRTH, not jesus. IIRC but feel free to correct me.

In the Gospel of Luke, Mary learns from the angel Gabriel that she will conceive and bear a child called Jesus. When she asks how this can be, since she is a virgin, he tells her that the Holy Spirit would "come upon her" and that "nothing will be impossible with God". She responds: "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word".[26] Later Mary visits her relative Elizabeth, who is pregnant with John the Baptist. John leaps in his mother's womb, recognizing the presence of Jesus, the Messiah.

However, you know just because the catholic church says something again, doesnt mean anything. Not everyone is catholic. Not everyone is christian.

Science has nothing to do with it. Science can probably prove that a bush cant spontaneously combust or that a man cant simply "part a sea" , but people wrote about it and people believe it. Some dont.

Its your choice whether to believe it or not.

Trying to proclaim your religion as the correct one (atheism) is no better than the people you are preaching against. Youre doing the exact thing you hate about other religions.

Is it possible mary was knocked up by some random guy and Jesus was a nobody who was just really good at convincing people to follow him. Sure.

Is it possible that Jesus was the son of god and Mary was visited by the holy spirit and did some amazing miracles (healing the blind, feeding the famished) , sure.

cant prove either one, we werent there.

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Trying to proclaim your religion as the correct one (atheism) is no better than the people you are preaching against. Youre doing the exact thing you hate about other religions.

Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is as much a religion as NOT modifying cars is a hobby. Lol

Christianity is made up of Catholicism, eastern orthodoxy, and protestantism.

[Vteckidd]

Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is as much a religion as NOT modifying cars is a hobby. Lol

Christianity is made up of Catholicism, eastern orthodoxy, and protestantism.

i grew up protestant, we never knelt to pray :P

My point is there are varying degrees and sections of christianity.

IMO, Atheism is a form of a religion. You all identify with the same common belief, that God doesnt exist.

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1]

Just cause youre atheist doesnt mean you dont believe in a moral code, but i kinda equate to all those east atlanta hipster doosh bags. Every east atlanta guy with skinny jeans, covered in tattoos, a beard, and a flannel shirt is trying to desperately be so different, then they take a picture at Graveyard tavern and they all look EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME.

Atheists think they are being different, but instead of just believing what THEY WANT TO BELIEVE, they try to tell other people THEY are right, and others are wrong. Which is laughable, because thats exactly what they are trying to complain about

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IMO, Atheism is a form of a religion. You all identify with the same common belief, that God doesnt exist.

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1]

You didn't read all of that definition. The key part being "that establishes symbols". A lack of a belief is not a belief in itself.

[Vteckidd]

point is its a section of people who believe in a common notion and atheists have identified themselves with symbols (such as the darwin fish, several others).

IMO the anti god sentiment is a belief in itself, as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.

Belief system=religion.

You wont convince me otherwise, sorry

[quickdodge®]

as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.

In a way, I'm actually the opposite of your theory. Christians cannot prove that He DOES exist so I have doubts. I don't doubt it because I can't prove He does. I doubt because they can't prove it. I don't need to prove to myself. If someone believes so much in something's existence, then it's up to them to prove it to me. Let me compare it with the theme of this web forum. Mike, you tell me your CRX makes 237hp. I don't believe you. It's not going to be up to me to prove that your car does what you say it does. You claim it, so you back it up.

I'm no atheist, by the way. Later, QD.

[Vteckidd]

In a way, I'm actually the opposite of your theory. Christians cannot prove that He DOES exist so I have doubts. I don't doubt it because I can't prove He does. I doubt because they can't prove it. I don't need to prove to myself. If someone believes so much in something's existence, then it's up to them to prove it to me. Let me compare it with the theme of this web forum. Mike, you tell me your CRX makes 237hp. I don't believe you. It's not going to be up to me to prove that your car does what you say it does. You claim it, so you back it up.

I'm no atheist, by the way. Later, QD.

I understand what you are saying, you are placing the burden of proof on the christians or whatever to prove to the "non believers" that some deity exists. I would totally agree with you if the people who believe are forcing their will on the atheists.

But our country has freedom of religion, people can worship mickey mouse if they want to. IF a section of people want to believe in jesus, then they should be allowed to. If atheists dont believe in jesus or god, that is their right.

the deity believers shouldnt be enforcing their faith on the atheists anymore than the atheists trying to enforce their beliefs on the christians.

and we are also a majority rules society. majority believe in God, so one who lives here, should be respectful for the countries origins and belief system. IF i lived in Saudi Arabia i wouldnt be suing their govt because they praise Allah.

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point is its a section of people who believe in a common notion and atheists have identified themselves with symbols (such as the darwin fish, several others).

IMO the anti god sentiment is a belief in itself, as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.

The thing is, atheists don't have symbols. Not one. The Darwin fish isn't a symbol of atheism. Jesus, god, and the bible are all symbols of Christianity.

You're still confusing "lack of belief" with "belief of a negative", a logical fallacy. Another logical fallacy is proving something doesn't exist. We call that argumentum ad ignorantiam. Believers make the extraordinary claim that god exists, so the burden of proof will always be on those that believe.

[Vteckidd]

you can use big words and quote theories as fact but it still comes down to the basic principle.

No one is forcing you to believe anything. dont believe in god? ok, doesnt bother me 1 bit. Overly believe in god like Tebow? sure, go for it.

As long as your belief system doesnt intrude upon my life in a negative way, who cares?

This is why i support gay marriage. the religious right try to make it a religious issue saying God believes marriage is a man and a woman blah blah blah. IMO you cannot bring into religious beliefs in such an argument, because what one person belief system is not the same as another (obviously).

So if god decreed to me tomorrow that Cats are the chosen people should we start worshipping cats?

My problem is the Christian and religious groups who try to govern citing their religious beliefs as fact (When ive said its not fact its FAITH) and likewise the Atheists making it their mission to prove the christians wrong and doing other stupid things like suing over 9/11 memorial having a cross is just down right insanity.

[Vteckidd]

Furthermore the Atheists have national organizations who seek out reasons to sue people (i can cite hundreds of examples) , so to have an ORGANIZATION means you have some form of coherent belief system, in this case that all religion is false (which is its own form of religion ironically).

Lastly, Atheists regardless if they think they are right or not , need to realize they are in a society that overwhelming believes in God in some form or another. Atheists shouldnt be given special treatment and, while they ahve the right NOT to believe in god, shouldnt be actively trying to remove that right from other people. They should realize that in reality, unless someone is trying to cause harm to their person directly or govern over them, they should just really shut up. If i see a mosque, i dont get all bent out of shape cause OMG THEY DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS, IM SO OFFENDED. I just go "cool, good for them, they should believe in what they want". Atheists tend to play the "think like me or perish"

If they tried half this stuff in another non christian country, they would be shot,hung, killed, beheaded. Go to Iran and tell them "your god is false and you arent respecting my beliefs you should remove ALLAH from your building".

You dont HAVE to be christian, or muslim, or jewish, but you should respect others right to practice as well, especially when you are in the VAST minority

I really dont care if you agree with me or not, its my opinion.

[quickdodge®]

I understand what you are saying, you are placing the burden of proof on the christians or whatever to prove to the "non believers" that some deity exists. I would totally agree with you if the people who believe are forcing their will on the atheists.

I'm with you, Mike. I'm talking about those same people or anyone that wants me to become a believer. Not just in general. But I also can include that if I wanted to start going to church to learn more, I would expect them to show me what they have to show God is real. Later, QD.

[bu villain]

IMO the anti god sentiment is a belief in itself, as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.

Belief system=religion.

You wont convince me otherwise, sorry

Are you saying that not believing in something constitutes a religion? If I don't believe in leprachauns, does that make me religious? How about minotaurs? Why is not believing in God a religion when we never refer to not believing in anything else as such?

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Furthermore the Atheists have national organizations who seek out reasons to sue people (i can cite hundreds of examples) , so to have an ORGANIZATION means you have some form of coherent belief system, in this case that all religion is false (which is its own form of religion ironically).

I'll wait for you to name ONE organization who's primary function is to sue believers for believing in god. You won't find one, but I'll wait patiently while you think of something.

My guess is you're going to name the ACLU and FFRF, since those are the more prominent secular organizations. So we'll go ahead and eliminate those off the top since neither of those organizations are either pro-atheist or pro-litigious.

And you still don't understand atheism. It's not a belief system. Lol. Go look it up in the same place you looked up the definition of religion earlier. Look at the word atheism. "Theism"- belief in a deity or creator. The prefix "a" denotes the lack of something.

Or is there a confirmation bias? Hmm.....

Lastly, Atheists regardless if they think they are right or not , need to realize they are in a society that overwhelming believes in God in some form or another. Atheists shouldnt be given special treatment and, while they ahve the right NOT to believe in god, shouldnt be actively trying to remove that right from other people. They should realize that in reality, unless someone is trying to cause harm to their person directly or govern over them, they should just really shut up. If i see a mosque, i dont get all bent out of shape cause OMG THEY DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS, IM SO OFFENDED. I just go "cool, good for them, they should believe in what they want". Atheists tend to play the "think like me or perish"

And thus, the point of the article has come full circle. The belief that because an entire nation overwhelmingly believes in one thing that they are correct

[geoff]

Abrahamic religion has only been around for about 3000 years. Christianity is a little more than 1000 years old.

Judaism and Christianity go hand in hand my friend. Christianity is a continuance of Judaism. And the statements you made in this quote show that when it comes to Christianity or any Abrahamic religion, you are ignorant...not to say stupid...just have no knowledge of it. The birth of Christ was recorded more than 2000 years ago......I would dare to say that you probably do not even know why you are an atheist. Did you get wronged by a "church" or did you just decide it makes no sense to you. Believe me when I say that MANY men smarter than you and I have believed and lived their life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Your famed Charles Darwin was himself a believer in God.

The " Catholic Church" as I see it personally is not a true established church of God. It was taken over by the Romans who tried to kill off the teachings and believers of Jesus. You want to talk about population control, ok i can see your point when referring to this church. The crusades, witch hunts, ect....all done and approved by the " Catholic Church". It is the most corrupt organization in the world, more so than any government and they make Enron look like a kindergarten playground fight. The word "catholic" is nowhere to be found in any scriptures, they practice idolitry which is clearly forbidden in scripture ( praying to saints, mary, ect...). The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not the image of the Body of Christ. Sorry it just isn't.

The point you are trying to make with this article has failed, it takes no more than for one to test it to see its a fable. Like I said before, many intelligent men/woman have believed.

[quickdodge®]

The point you are trying to make with this article has failed...

To be honest, when I first read this, I had no idea it was about religion. Still don't see any correlation. Later, QD.

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Judaism and Christianity go hand in hand my friend. Christianity is a continuance of Judaism. And the statements you made in this quote show that when it comes to Christianity or any Abrahamic religion, you are ignorant...not to say stupid...just have no knowledge of it. The birth of Christ was recorded more than 2000 years ago......I would dare to say that you probably do not even know why you are an atheist. Did you get wronged by a "church" or did you just decide it makes no sense to you. Believe me when I say that MANY men smarter than you and I have believed and lived their life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Your famed Charles Darwin was himself a believer in God.

The " Catholic Church" as I see it personally is not a true established church of God. It was taken over by the Romans who tried to kill off the teachings and believers of Jesus. You want to talk about population control, ok i can see your point when referring to this church. The crusades, witch hunts, ect....all done and approved by the " Catholic Church". It is the most corrupt organization in the world, more so than any government and they make Enron look like a kindergarten playground fight. The word "catholic" is nowhere to be found in any scriptures, they practice idolitry which is clearly forbidden in scripture ( praying to saints, mary, ect...). The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not the image of the Body of Christ. Sorry it just isn't.

The point you are trying to make with this article has failed, it takes no more than for one to test it to see its a fable. Like I said before, many intelligent men/woman have believed.

I think you should do a little bit more reading about religion and start questioning your faith some more. I used to be where you were, I was once a devout Christian. It was god or nothing, but I started questioning what others were preaching. Then science came along. Then I read the bible. Cover to cover. That's about the time I really started questioning things and looking at things with a now open mind. I know exactly why I'm an atheist. If you want to make the argument that more intelligent people believed in god, there are other intelligent scholars who were atheists.

Religion, the bible, and the god of the bible is also a fable. The test is science, and it fails miserably. They are constructs of men to cope with the things they didn't know about and were unable to discover in the bronze age. Read the bible, all the answers are there

[Vteckidd]

Your reasoning about science is flawed because you have no way of testing anything the Bible talks about.

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Huh? Everyone knows the bible is written by man.

Flawed scientific reasoning is one hell of an oxymoron.

[95420A]

So what I take from this is that regardless of what anyone says to you you're gonna stick by your beliefs which is admirable. But as I see it nobody is trying to convert you, it only seems to be going the other way. Why are you so intent on making others "see the light"? We should all just agree to keep personal beliefs exactly that, personal.

This being said there are actually churches of atheism so indeed it can be classified as a religion just one with a different set of views.

Some also argue that you are not indeed atheist but agnostic since you choose not to believe and base it on the principle that it cannot be proved that god does exist.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[95420A]

And the organization American Atheists has and continues to sue for such trivial things as cross shaped beams in the 9/11 museum.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[Vteckidd]

Huh? Everyone knows the bible is written by man.

Flawed scientific reasoning is one hell of an oxymoron.

your position is that science can prove things that happened 1000 years ago+. That is simple stretching the argument to fit your narrative. Scientists dont know if moses ACTUALLY parted the red sea himself, or if god actually did it.

The dont know if the burning bush was some dude lighting it on fire, or god actually speaking.

What can scientists ACTUALLY test considering nothing from the bible is around today.

I mean the dead sea scrolls survived, but the fact of the matter is, what happened thousands and thousands of years ago, cannot be proven or disproven TODAY.

Furthermore, who cares what you think or believe, just like you dont care or believe what christians believe. Why does it REALLY MATTER if GOD exists, or doesnt?

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So what I take from this is that regardless of what anyone says to you you're gonna stick by your beliefs which is admirable. But as I see it nobody is trying to convert you, it only seems to be going the other way. Why are you so intent on making others "see the light"? We should all just agree to keep personal beliefs exactly that, personal.

This being said there are actually churches of atheism so indeed it can be classified as a religion just one with a different set of views.

Some also argue that you are not indeed atheist but agnostic since you choose not to believe and base it on the principle that it cannot be proved that god does exist.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Atheism cannot be classified as a religion because it's not a religion. Lol. And I am very much atheist. Agnosticism is a descriptor; it is possible to be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. Conversely, you can be a gnostic atheist or a gnostic theist. Can you find and name me an atheist church?

Good try with American Atheists though. AA is an organization that defends the civil liberties of atheists and provides speakers for events. The 9/11 cross fiasco was a government establishment of a specific religion, which is constitutionally illegal.

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your position is that science can prove things that happened 1000 years ago+. That is simple stretching the argument to fit your narrative. Scientists dont know if moses ACTUALLY parted the red sea himself, or if god actually did it.

Scientists would disagree with you. Particularly the archeologists that say that the parting of the red sea is a myth. Something tells me though, that faced with actual scientific evidence, you wouldn't believe it anyway.

[Vteckidd]

not when the science is based on flaws, no i wouldnt. IMO

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So your answer is no, you wouldn't believe scientific evidence if it was presented to you.

Scientific evidence that has been scrutinized and tested through the scientific method, and generally accepted universally through science isn't "based on flaws". I don't even know what "based on flaws" means.

[Vteckidd]

i personally believe that no scientist today can disprove or prove anything that happened 1000s of years ago based on what man wrote down in the bible.

Scientists can theorize all the "bible stories" and lore that has happened, but its just theories.

Dinosaurs throws a huge wrench in the bible methodology, so does darwins theory, and many others.

But no one we know can prove without a shadow of a doubt that those things DIDNT happen, as we were not present.

YOu are arguing with yourself from this point forward, we just disagree.

[Vteckidd]

if you can show me absolute proof that god doesnt exist, then ill believe you.

[Vteckidd]

Scientific evidence that has been scrutinized and tested through the scientific method, and generally accepted universally through science isn't "based on flaws".

I dont believe science is infallible sorry. Scientists have been wrong many times over the ages. Science is opinion of man, it can be proven, and disproven as time and technology evolve.

[geoff]

You say the test is science and religion fails miserably...please show me where and when these "tests" were done. If there were scientific proof that even one of the events in the Bible never happened...then Christianity, the Bible, and Faith would all be defeated. So, please give me the date of the experiments, the scientists who organized them, and the difinitive results that show this. As far as i know, i have yet to read any article or new headline that says," Science has proven God to be the biggest hoax ever!"....you had doubts based on the institution that failed you. God did not fail you my friend, you lost hope in man and the leaders that were to "shepherd" you to the way of eternal life. When this happened, you turned your back on God and walked away....the rest is just an inevitable outcome...you researched the atheistic ideas and decided for yourself that they provided a better case. Now, from bitterness, you attempt to single handly bring down the entire " religion ". What you fail to realize my friend is this, God DOES NOT need YOU to believe in Him in order for His existence to continue. We do not feed His immortality with our prayers, tithes, offerings, or witnessing. He is still God in the end whether you choose to accept that or not. You seem to have thrown in the towel for the battle of your soul, let that be it then. Keep your darkest thoughts about the faith to yourself and curse God in your own mind. Remember this though, bitterness is the pill you swallow hoping "they" die. A wise man once told me, " if the Bible was written by evil men they would not have included such high moral standards nor such a promise of love and hope. If good men wrote it; they would not have falsely claimed divine inspiration." The Bible speaks truly when it says," heaven and earth shall pass away, yet these words will remain." How many men have lived to proclaim that God is not real? How many of them went to the grave promising the masses that there is no afterlife and that they should be "open minded free thinkers" and live life fully? Their bones are in the ground today.....my Bible still stands in one piece, undefeated, and to this current day....infallible................listen closely my friend....you might still hear the small whisper of Gods' voice amongst all the chaos and shouts of the world.

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I dont believe science is infallible sorry. Scientists have been wrong many times over the ages. Science is opinion of man, it can be proven, and disproven as time and technology evolve.

The beauty of the scientific method is that it is infallible. Science itself isn't proven infallible, only ideas. Science is only the method and it remains the same as time and technology evolves. Take Newtons laws of gravity for instance, it was repeatedly tested and later replaced with a theory that better explained things (general relativity)

[geoff]

I want to ask you a serious question now. When you have children some day, being the "hardcore" atheist you are, will you keep them from searching for God themselves. Will you give them the option from childhood to have a chance and hear of Jesus, read the Bible, and pray? Or will you put down your atheistic dictatorial foot and stiffle any such thought of "religion"? Will you fill your children's minds with the poison of science and declare to them, " Hear O' my children, there is no God, no God but the one inside yourselves"? You may choose to believe in nothing, if you are wrong then you will have literal "hell" to pay for it. Will you enforce that on your children too? Your wife/domestic partner? You see, if im wrong, then when i die nothing happens. But if you are wrong, when you die you will have to try and explain why you chose not to believe, why you turned your back on your upbringing, why you cursed God and chose death. Is that really something you want to gamble when another's soul is in your hands? Think about that long and hard. It's not a fear tactic....it is fact that science cannot and will not ever be able to prove if their is an afterlife...you are betting a lot on a practice (science) that time and again proves itself flawed and fallible....

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You say the test is science and religion fails miserably...please show me where and when these "tests" were done.

Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?