Christians come on in
Convince me to believe in a god.
What's your indisputable, scientific, hard evidence? I don't mean "because the bible says so". Or "I knew a guy who died and God made him breathe again". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept a faith.
I await enlightenment.
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You were born.
/ thread.
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
Faith is a part of life. Nothing scientific about it. You have faith in all the things that you do will lead you to something.
Faith in school. Faith in love, Faith in friendship and relationships. Faith in money. Scientifically, you can live without all of these things but we have faith that these things will lead us to a better job, better social life, better community, better financial circumstances. It always doesn't work out but that's why they call it faith. You believe in what you're doing will lead you to something better and so you continue to pursue it.
You won't see it until it actually happens or plays out. You do so with the purpose and intent that it all culminates to something better when it's revealed. It's just like what the Oracle told Neo. "...balls to bones."
First thing I think that needs to be addressed is this idea of "indisputable, scientific, hard evidence." Can one give such evidence to anything? The answer is absolutely not. Everything can be disputed. Secondly the idea that you present that Christianity is the only faith through the title of the thread is a little odd. Why are you singling Christ followers out but then turn around and ask for a logical argument to believe in "a god" and "a faith?"
So before I just go and rattle off a standard argument from the library of apologia I'd like to know a little more about you. What do you believe, if anything? Do you think that good and evil in fact do exist? Are you in disbelief about any higher power or is it just the God presented to you through the modern day church? Have you read much on the subject or just shooting out questions? I also ask where is your hard evidence that God does not exist?
that's how I roll
I would consider reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis if you are actually interested in hearing some compelling and logical reasons for the belief of God. If you are determined to find concrete physical proof for faith, then I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree. Christianity, at least, starts with a spiritual understanding of God, and then (hopefully) manifests itself physically through the actions of it's followers.
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hardly what i was looking for. lets refrain from stuff like this, please.Originally Posted by ISAtlanta300
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Thank you for a thought out response. I understand that faith is not a scientific (tangible as i called it in the OP) thing. But what starts someone believing? what jumpstarts faith? I (speaking just from my own POV and experience), have no reason at all to call faith a part of my life. im a logic based person. I see things for what they are. To me, faith is a romanticized version of the world we live in. My social life, my relationships, and my love are all parts of my soul. An internal thing that was obtained through evolution. Not an external thing like a god, or an internal thing caused by a god.
My word choices in this post my offend some of you. I apologize, that is not my intent at all.
Last edited by msanch24; 02-01-2011 at 03:37 PM.
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Youre absolutely right. Allow me to explain:
I refer to the christian "God" as "a god" because by capitalizing his name and using his name as a proper noun, i am admitting to his existence, which i cannot do. Not to offend, just how i operate.
As for me personally, I have read the books, been to bible school, examined the bible word by word. I believe VERY little of it.
I have entertained believing, but i was lying to myself and everyone the whole time. At the end of the day when i lie awake in bed and think about it, It seems insane to me to believe in something, and idea presented to me by mortal men, with no hard evidence to speak of.
I do believe in good and evil (in people) but each are implemented by chemical reactions in the brain. I do not believe in an atmospheric battle between good and evil.
My hard evidence that a god does not exist is simply the lack of hard evidence that a god does exist.
Let me shoot out an example:
I tell you "Hey NJSC, listen up. There used to be huge purple elephants the size of the moon on Earth. There were three of them, and they lived for thousands of years, eating meteors. We sprouted out of their poop."
There is no evidence left from these elephants, and it sounds absurd, but to me, my origin story is just as believable. Again, not trying to offend.
thank you for taking an interest!
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I'll definitely check it out! thank you.
I understand that christianity itself cannot exist in the absence of faith, but that is exactly where im at, so this will be an interesting discussion. I ask with an open mind.
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thanks! what does a fellow cd have to say on the matter?
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This...
which part? the book or the philosophy on faith?
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Before I begin... this is the definition of the word "faith" copy/pasted from dictionary.com
faith
[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
Everyone believes in something... even if it is as simple as believing the sun will rise in the morning. You do have faith that the sun will do it's "job" and rise... correct?
Now... your "soul"... can you see such a thing? A soul is far from a tangible object of any kind in my mind. You say that you've obtained your soul through "evolution"... does that mean that early human's did not have a soul?
^^^ just a base argument.... not meaning to offend... Just questioning you're idea's and beliefs to make you think...
The book... as well as his idea of faith
Souls can not be touched with fingers or the like, but souls can be felt. You feel others' and you feel your own. that is tangible to me. Yes, faith is tangible to some, and i respect that, but i cannot feel it.
Early humans had souls yes, ever since human beings became "superiorly intelligent", we have had souls. A "soul" in a sense that we have feelings and emotion.
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ill check it out! thanks
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It seems as though you are questioning faith more than Christianity.
I understand if you have a problem with faith. It is a hard "concept" to fully comprehend. Though a soul is quite as difficult. May I ask why you want a "tangible, logical reason to accept a faith? I just want to see where you're coming from.
i want to understand what is it that causes people to put so much of themselves into something so... "uncertain".
And the concept of a soul is crystal clear to me, but faith is not.
As far as what i am questioning, i question the existence of a god, the truth of faith, and the reason for people's beliefs
EDIT: gotta run to class, ill check back tonight.
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My approach to faith begins first with my understanding of morality. From my own observation of the world, I see what appears to me to be a general universally accepted code of morality, that is very different from animal instincts. That is, most humans will acknowledge that stealing and killing is a wrong thing to do, whereas, a cougar, for example, will challenge another predator for a meal, and kill them if necessary. And not feel any guilt about it. Most of us would not kill another human for a meal.
From there, by mixing that seemingly universal code of morality, with the extreme complexity of the universe, the human mind, etc., I decide to believe that life as we know it was both created and designed by something. This belief in a higher power, let's loosely call it religion, awakens a desire to worship (that I believe is present in all of humankind, be it a worship of God, of science, of cars, women, etc.)
I then must choose what faith to believe, what God to worship. In examining the world religions, I am drawn to the person of Christ. I think the virtues of selflessness, humility, unconditional love, and forgiveness. It is completely counter-culture, but it is exactly what the world needs. Now I'm sure you are thinking that all religions teach those values, and they probably do. But Christianity is the only one that teaches that the creator became man and walked in our shoes, and lived out the "perfect" life.
All that to say, there was still an unexplainable spiritual awakening. Everything I just said is simply mental, that is, faith in Christianity "makes sense" to me. Faith, however, is more intangible. My Christianity did not spring forth out of logic, but is rather enforced by it.
Hope that makes sense, I appreciate your honest questions.
I read this and im really anxious to reply but im feeling burnt out from biolab, so ill get back tonight when i have free time to formulate a response worthy of the time you put in to answer mine. I think youre on to something with this post.
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I take no offense in your stance and I applaud the maturity that you have been presenting in the conversation.
First thing to consider is you are willing to refute the idea of a supreme being based completely on you not seeing any evidence. But at the same time you ascribe to the belief in a soul which just appeared through evolution. Your support of this is us having feelings and emotion, but do not inferior animals also have this soul? Any dog lover will tell you that their dog has feelings. You shout at a dog, they are sad. You come home from a long day, and your dog obviously missed you and is excited that you are home. So based on your argument dogs then also have souls, but at what point during the evolutionary period did dogs receive that? You get the point. The evolutionary theory also is based on genetic mutations which are then able to make a specific individual stronger, faster, sexier, etc. So a "soul" would then have no evolutionary benefit and therefore based on it's own argument would not propel a species further along the evolutionary spectrum. So based on the evolutionary theory there would be no souls.
The idea that you do believe in good and evil in people but only by chemical reactions in the brain is in itself an oxymoron. The idea of good is that there is an outside standard which people hold themselves and others accountable for. If you simply attribute this to chemical reactions in the brain then one cannot judge another on what is good or what is evil. We are simply animals, again with no souls. That would then go to say if I wanted to come and hump your leg, punch your aunt Sally in the face, or (GASP IS HE ABOUT TO SAY IT?! YES HE IS!) steal your car that you cannot then say that it is wrong, because it is all just chemical reactions in my brain. Across nearly everyone in the world there is obviously evidence that this standard exists. Rape and cannibalism are two of the highest standards to social laws or objective standards on what is evil. This goes to show that there is obviously an external objective moral standard that exists, and I would argue that this standard is from God.
I'm going to touch on your argument for evidence again. Scenario: QD (I picked you because you are probably going to read this.) comes into my house and kills my wife no finger prints, no dna evidence, no weapon, no motive, nothing. Does that then mean that QD did not kill my wife? Of course not. Truth is truth whether evidence is there or not also whether you choose to believe it or not.
Another book to read is "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell Little bit of an easier read.
that's how I roll
There isn't any indisputable evidence in the existence of a God. Faith is most certainly not evidence. Faith is a belief. Not a tangible truth.
You sure you don't want to edit this out of your post?
Much, much easier to disprove God than to prove. There are no pictures. There are no videos. There are no recordings. No nothing to show that there is a God. There's nothing to prove that there is a God, so that's more proof that He doesn't exist.
I'm not saying I don't believe. I'm just being logical and thinking things through. To me, it just makes sense. Later, QD.
FOR MORE INFO, CLICK THE PIC!!!
I knew you would be reading
I don't want to edit that out of my post. Everything can be disputed. I'm not speaking to the logic or intelligence of the arguments which dispute everything. Case in point the philosophical postmodern movement that states there is no ultimate truth only what one believes to be true. Solipsism also stands on the premise that the physical world does not exist other than a projection of the of the mind. So you are the ruler of said reality and choose what exists and what does not. So that is what my statement that everything can be disputed speaks to.
I also don't think that it is easier to prove or disprove the existence of God. To prove something is to show the absolute validity or correctness of something. Whether that stance is in favor of the existence of God or not it has not happened. I think that the only proof is upon death. If you end up before the creator then the truth is there. Only probability can be discussed.
that's how I roll
I have a 1979 Honda Civic. I can prove that. It is non-disputable. I'm married. I have children. My favorite color is ........... These are all truths that can be proven without a doubt. Not everything can be disputed.I knew you would be reading
I don't want to edit that out of my post. Everything can be disputed.
Which you absolutely can NOT do when it comes to the existence of God. Which makes it easier to believe that He does NOT exist. He's been around for all this time and there is no definitive evidence of His being? Speaks volumes, man.
IF there is a creator. Later, QD.
FOR MORE INFO, CLICK THE PIC!!!
After reading you post, i can accept much, but not all of it. I understand that there is a moral code, but it definitely varies between cultures and social groups. You are correct, however, where it does seem to completely contradict our animal instincts. I just happen to accredit this to the presence of emotion. Compassion, sympathy, and guilt for instance.
And here is where you lost me. Im unable to see where you make the jump from a complex universe to that meaning that it was created by a superior being.
Your reasons for choosing christianity are noble. It's obvious to me that you thought it out and you stress the "good" parts of the religion. You truly enjoy that it makes you live as a better person. But to me, all those things are part of the moral code, not a code instilled in us by a church. I practice forgiveness, selflessness and the lot because my mother did a darn fine job in raising me. I admire you for your recognizing the importance of these virtues, but for the atheist that practices them despite not having a preacher and a book to live by, it makes all the other things that go along with religion seem strange.
Mainly, I cannot wrap my head around this:
Christians claim to have a merciful god. Yet he demands that you worship him and only him, or you'll suffer forever. He demands that you live by these virtues so that you will be rewarded with heaven. No disrespect intended, but is this not the grounds of bribery?
I live a life directed towards bettering myself and all that around me because i think it is the right thing to do. (not saying you dont, ive just heard some christians slip with "if i werent a christian id beat your ass" or the like. Its sickening)
I guess what im trying to say is that i dont feel a need in faith for a superior being to be fulfilled. I fulfill myself through music, relationships, and the simple things. Ive been to church many a time and never have i come out feeling even close to as full of ecstasy and joy than when i step out of my car after a weekend drive with the windows down, or when i strum my final chord and the crowds applause rolls over me.
I just dont feel the void, you know? Maybe thats where im different than most. I dont need questions answered, and i dont have a yearning to worship a creator.
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For me, souls are in all living things. Its the ability to reason, as well as the presence of emotions that separates us from other animals. A more intelligent animal will survive. Through evolution, the species gets more and more intelligent until it obtains the ability to reason. Pair that with emotion and bam, you've got yourself a human being.
Im not too clear on the point you're making in the second part, but ill take a stab at responding. Chemical makeup of a persons decision making sector of the brain decides how well they abide by the "social moral code of good and evil". This doesnt change that the code exists or whether or not they break it or abide by it. They simply do or dont. Some do, some do not. This, of course, largely influenced by environmental factors and the quality of parenting. But some apples are just rotten from the beginning.
As for the unfortunate story about QD, no, we do not know who killed your wife, but we know that she was killed. Her body is the evidence that it happened. In the context of the existence of a god, there is no such evidence. QD addresses this in very good wording up a little bit. let me go find it... ok, this right here:
"He's been around for all this time and there is no definitive evidence of His being? Speaks volumes, man."
this is pretty much what Im trying to say.
My apologies if this is all a little incoherent. I ramble sometimes and my meaning mightve gotten buried somewhere.
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Reminds me of a recent movie I saw "The Rite" with Anthony Hopkins (guy in Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal)...
I went to this movie with a friend of mine (both of us Christians) but this guy was one of the elders of our church on a very special time. A week prior to us seeing the movie, we were talking about his experiences as an elder and the one thing he says that he cannot shake off was (to him) the true confirmation that this 'belief thing' is really real. I asked him what confirmed it for him and he stated that it was when he was asked to be part of an exorcism for one of the girls at our church that got possessed. He stated that it was entirely surreal or 'unbelievable' witnessing it. I asked him for more details because I enjoy these kinds of things... the Exorcists movies, Exorcism of Emily Rose... but I asked him if the things we see in movies is true. He had a resounding answer of Yes. He said that they had 5 grown men trying to hold her down (she's around 130 lbs) and the men probably from 160 - 250 lbs and yet they couldn't hold her down... he said very literally she was pushing (using her arms) them a good distance off while they attempted to hold her down. The voice changing completely and speaking in a totally different language. Now mind you, we're Asian... so we have our native tongue, English, and given who I know were at the exorcism, French, Laos, Thai, and Cambodian were all representative languages there. The girl was born in the States, knows our native language and English fluently and may know one of the common school languages (French, Spanish, etc...) but what he told me was that it was a completely different language altogether which scared the crap out of him. It wasn't until our Pastor started into the exorcism using God's name did the fighting-back subside.
I then asked him what happened next... he stated that the Pastor started to demand the names of the demons that possessed her... she was replying in English and no one of the older elders knew to write English besides my friend... so he had to write out all the names. He stated that the first night, he had over 50 names and it gradually became less and less each night (4 nights total). By that time the Pastor was completely exhausted, they asked for help from one of the sister branches (same denomination and ethnic language) to send their pastor to help with the 'boss' demon. Now that's the story he told me a week prior to seeing the movie.
Now during the movie, what he told me the week before was all confirmed (now, i know it's just a movie... so it's not real real) but it was a based on a true story (real life experience).
Long story short, all I'm saying is that everything he told me he experienced a week previously was played out almost to the T in this movie... very coincidentally. Take it however you want... but this stuff is real for me.
Good movie BTW for anyone who likes those demonic possession movies. PG13 so don't expect a lot of blood, violence, sex, or gore. I think they did a good job upon the basis of the movie than 'Hollywood-ing' it up.
aside from stories and "based on a true story" films, theyre no evidence for these happenings either. Not saying your friend isnt being truthful, but i just dont believe that it happened like that. And if it did, it wasnt caused by demons. I just cant believe that. my mind wont allow it. It seems way too...absurd.
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Here is where you lose me. I don't see a need for the evolution of human emotion and all that that idea encompasses. (And before you peg me as an ignorant creationist, understand that you and I probably have very similar ideas on how we wound up (scientifically) where were are now. I consider science an ally of Christianity.) What good is art, music, fashion, sexuality, etc. in a natural world? Why, in six billion years, has no other species even come close to these things? And yes, I've seen all the reasons why humans evolved the way they did. But if a human was to evolve to wear clothes, why not cold-blooded animals? Would not other animals benefit from equal levels of intelligence and creativity? If secular evolution works the way I understand it, why are all the other animals essentially stuck at square one in that regard? From that question, I assume that humans wound up this way by design.
Your concern is a valid one, and one shared by many Christians. And there is no easy answer, and maybe no answer at all. But you are mistaken in believing that God rewards our good works with an eternity in heaven. First of all, Christianity dictates that salvation is obtained through the acceptance of grace alone. Anyone that tells you different doesn't understand the basic tenets of the religion.
Christianity is not a series of rules for humanity to live by until Christ shows back up and takes us all the heaven. Modern Christianity, however, has created this idea that this life doesn't matter, and that everything will be great once we get upstairs. This idea is a recent one, stemming out of Rapture Theology, which is largely a 19th century invention. The idea climaxed in the 1990's with all of the Left Behind nonsense.
Christianity is supposed to be a radical, counter-cultural movement to create an entirely different culture in this world. Whereas humanity seeks power through war, government, spite, and punishment, we seek to create a world through power-under; social justice, service, humility, and love. The rules you speak are teachings to help reach that end. [/QUOTE]
At the end of the day, we are all still humans. We are not perfect, we do not profess to be. Many terrible things have been done in the name in the name of Christ. I do not seek to defend or justify those things. They bring me more disgust than you could imagine.
I don't doubt that you find fulfillment through music, relationships, and the simple things. I've stepped out of my RSX after a long weekend of spirited driving, and finished a good show to the approval of my band's fans. The difference, is that those things connect on a spiritual level for me. My passions are intricately tied to my entire being. I cannot explain it.
My hope for you is that you at least understand that there is more to Christianity than the American civil religion that you observe in your everyday life. We aren't the gay haters, the Left Behinder's or million-dollar pastors; nor are we trying to force you to pray before a football game or hang up a copy of the Ten Commandments. We just read a story about how 12 men were convinced by a mysterious rabbi to change the world and gave their lives for that cause, and decided that we'd do our best to do the same.
But if I choose to dispute that I can. I can merely choose to believe that everything is merely a figment of my imagination. Then you don't exist. Your wife doesn't exist. You car doesn't exist, and neither do colors. Not saying that I ascribe to this mentality, but some do.
Which you also absolutely can not do when it comes to the non-existence of God.
We'll find out.
that's how I roll
You're right. You can dispute. But when it's placed right in front of you, the dispute is instantly null and void.
In a sense, you're right here as well. Again, though, the lack of evidence to prove God's existence becomes the proof of (a probable) non-existence. I don't have to prove that He doesn't exist because there is no evidence to disprove it.
That we shall. Like I said before, I'm not a total non-believer. I'm one who just has lots of questions that will literally NEVER be answered by anyone on Earth. Later, QD.
FOR MORE INFO, CLICK THE PIC!!!
That's what the character in the movie believed too... he explained it away using science. That the possessed were really schizo and that the speaking of English (she was native Italian) and other languages were due to the person's age and demographic. If there is one thing that I've learned in corporate america, is that you can explain anything away, even hard facts and numbers.
I either case, convincing anyone to do or be something else when that person is already resolved to do the other is pretty fruitless. Resolved being the keyword there.
I dont know man. I seems counterproductive to attempt to explain something using a hollywood movie. I understand where youre coming from and i understand the point youre making but until i have first hand real life experience, it doesnt mean much to me.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQlh...eature=related
lol
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wish I could give you more reps for this. Haha
that's how I roll
No one can give you a tangible or logical reason to accept a faith because accepting a faith requires, well faith. And faith is the ability to believe in something in the absence of logic or tangible evidence which is why religions' validity can not be proved on paper, only in one's faith.
Yes, I suppose I'm starting to accept this. Unfortunately, I just don't have the faith. I can't believe in something I've never seen, felt, heard, etc.
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Religion was created to control the masses and thats it, it doesn't matter how many details you get into bottom line without religion there would be no form or structure of productive lifestyle for us to follow
Point blank - Religion = CROWD CONTROL because honestly, would mankind have made it to y2k without it?
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