Christians come on in

[msanch24]

Before I begin... this is the definition of the word "faith" copy/pasted from dictionary.com

faith   
[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Everyone believes in something... even if it is as simple as believing the sun will rise in the morning. You do have faith that the sun will do it's "job" and rise... correct?

Now... your "soul"... can you see such a thing? A soul is far from a tangible object of any kind in my mind. You say that you've obtained your soul through "evolution"... does that mean that early human's did not have a soul?

^^^ just a base argument.... not meaning to offend... Just questioning you're idea's and beliefs to make you think...

Souls can not be touched with fingers or the like, but souls can be felt. You feel others' and you feel your own. that is tangible to me. Yes, faith is tangible to some, and i respect that, but i cannot feel it.

Early humans had souls yes, ever since human beings became "superiorly intelligent", we have had souls. A "soul" in a sense that we have feelings and emotion.

[antj101]

Souls can not be touched with fingers or the like, but souls can be felt. You feel others' and you feel your own. that is tangible to me. Yes, faith is tangible to some, and i respect that, but i cannot feel it.

Early humans had souls yes, ever since human beings became "superiorly intelligent", we have had souls. A "soul" in a sense that we have feelings and emotion.

It seems as though you are questioning faith more than Christianity.

I understand if you have a problem with faith. It is a hard "concept" to fully comprehend. Though a soul is quite as difficult. May I ask why you want a "tangible, logical reason to accept a faith? I just want to see where you're coming from.

[msanch24]

It seems as though you are questioning faith more than Christianity.

I understand if you have a problem with faith. It is a hard "concept" to fully comprehend. Though a soul is quite as difficult. May I ask why you want a "tangible, logical reason to accept a faith? I just want to see where you're coming from.

i want to understand what is it that causes people to put so much of themselves into something so... "uncertain".
And the concept of a soul is crystal clear to me, but faith is not.
As far as what i am questioning, i question the existence of a god, the truth of faith, and the reason for people's beliefs

EDIT: gotta run to class, ill check back tonight.

[Nerdsrock22]

i want to understand what is it that causes people to put so much of themselves into something so... "uncertain".
And the concept of a soul is crystal clear to me, but faith is not.
As far as what i am questioning, i question the existence of a god, the truth of faith, and the reason for people's beliefs

EDIT: gotta run to class, ill check back tonight.

My approach to faith begins first with my understanding of morality. From my own observation of the world, I see what appears to me to be a general universally accepted code of morality, that is very different from animal instincts. That is, most humans will acknowledge that stealing and killing is a wrong thing to do, whereas, a cougar, for example, will challenge another predator for a meal, and kill them if necessary. And not feel any guilt about it. Most of us would not kill another human for a meal.

From there, by mixing that seemingly universal code of morality, with the extreme complexity of the universe, the human mind, etc., I decide to believe that life as we know it was both created and designed by something. This belief in a higher power, let's loosely call it religion, awakens a desire to worship (that I believe is present in all of humankind, be it a worship of God, of science, of cars, women, etc.)

I then must choose what faith to believe, what God to worship. In examining the world religions, I am drawn to the person of Christ. I think the virtues of selflessness, humility, unconditional love, and forgiveness. It is completely counter-culture, but it is exactly what the world needs. Now I'm sure you are thinking that all religions teach those values, and they probably do. But Christianity is the only one that teaches that the creator became man and walked in our shoes, and lived out the "perfect" life.

All that to say, there was still an unexplainable spiritual awakening. Everything I just said is simply mental, that is, faith in Christianity "makes sense" to me. Faith, however, is more intangible. My Christianity did not spring forth out of logic, but is rather enforced by it.

Hope that makes sense, I appreciate your honest questions.

[msanch24]

My approach to faith begins first with my understanding of morality. From my own observation of the world, I see what appears to me to be a general universally accepted code of morality, that is very different from animal instincts. That is, most humans will acknowledge that stealing and killing is a wrong thing to do, whereas, a cougar, for example, will challenge another predator for a meal, and kill them if necessary. And not feel any guilt about it. Most of us would not kill another human for a meal.

From there, by mixing that seemingly universal code of morality, with the extreme complexity of the universe, the human mind, etc., I decide to believe that life as we know it was both created and designed by something. This belief in a higher power, let's loosely call it religion, awakens a desire to worship (that I believe is present in all of humankind, be it a worship of God, of science, of cars, women, etc.)

I then must choose what faith to believe, what God to worship. In examining the world religions, I am drawn to the person of Christ. I think the virtues of selflessness, humility, unconditional love, and forgiveness. It is completely counter-culture, but it is exactly what the world needs. Now I'm sure you are thinking that all religions teach those values, and they probably do. But Christianity is the only one that teaches that the creator became man and walked in our shoes, and lived out the "perfect" life.

All that to say, there was still an unexplainable spiritual awakening. Everything I just said is simply mental, that is, faith in Christianity "makes sense" to me. Faith, however, is more intangible. My Christianity did not spring forth out of logic, but is rather enforced by it.

Hope that makes sense, I appreciate your honest questions.

I read this and im really anxious to reply but im feeling burnt out from biolab, so ill get back tonight when i have free time to formulate a response worthy of the time you put in to answer mine. I think youre on to something with this post.

[msanch24]

My approach to faith begins first with my understanding of morality. From my own observation of the world, I see what appears to me to be a general universally accepted code of morality, that is very different from animal instincts. That is, most humans will acknowledge that stealing and killing is a wrong thing to do, whereas, a cougar, for example, will challenge another predator for a meal, and kill them if necessary. And not feel any guilt about it. Most of us would not kill another human for a meal.

From there, by mixing that seemingly universal code of morality, with the extreme complexity of the universe, the human mind, etc., I decide to believe that life as we know it was both created and designed by something. This belief in a higher power, let's loosely call it religion, awakens a desire to worship (that I believe is present in all of humankind, be it a worship of God, of science, of cars, women, etc.)

I then must choose what faith to believe, what God to worship. In examining the world religions, I am drawn to the person of Christ. I think the virtues of selflessness, humility, unconditional love, and forgiveness. It is completely counter-culture, but it is exactly what the world needs. Now I'm sure you are thinking that all religions teach those values, and they probably do. But Christianity is the only one that teaches that the creator became man and walked in our shoes, and lived out the "perfect" life.

All that to say, there was still an unexplainable spiritual awakening. Everything I just said is simply mental, that is, faith in Christianity "makes sense" to me. Faith, however, is more intangible. My Christianity did not spring forth out of logic, but is rather enforced by it.

Hope that makes sense, I appreciate your honest questions.

After reading you post, i can accept much, but not all of it. I understand that there is a moral code, but it definitely varies between cultures and social groups. You are correct, however, where it does seem to completely contradict our animal instincts. I just happen to accredit this to the presence of emotion. Compassion, sympathy, and guilt for instance.

And here is where you lost me. Im unable to see where you make the jump from a complex universe to that meaning that it was created by a superior being.

Your reasons for choosing christianity are noble. It's obvious to me that you thought it out and you stress the "good" parts of the religion. You truly enjoy that it makes you live as a better person. But to me, all those things are part of the moral code, not a code instilled in us by a church. I practice forgiveness, selflessness and the lot because my mother did a darn fine job in raising me. I admire you for your recognizing the importance of these virtues, but for the atheist that practices them despite not having a preacher and a book to live by, it makes all the other things that go along with religion seem strange.

Mainly, I cannot wrap my head around this:
Christians claim to have a merciful god. Yet he demands that you worship him and only him, or you'll suffer forever. He demands that you live by these virtues so that you will be rewarded with heaven. No disrespect intended, but is this not the grounds of bribery?

I live a life directed towards bettering myself and all that around me because i think it is the right thing to do. (not saying you dont, ive just heard some christians slip with "if i werent a christian id beat your ass" or the like. Its sickening)

I guess what im trying to say is that i dont feel a need in faith for a superior being to be fulfilled. I fulfill myself through music, relationships, and the simple things. Ive been to church many a time and never have i come out feeling even close to as full of ecstasy and joy than when i step out of my car after a weekend drive with the windows down, or when i strum my final chord and the crowds applause rolls over me.

I just dont feel the void, you know? Maybe thats where im different than most. I dont need questions answered, and i dont have a yearning to worship a creator.

[Nerdsrock22]

After reading you post, i can accept much, but not all of it. I understand that there is a moral code, but it definitely varies between cultures and social groups. You are correct, however, where it does seem to completely contradict our animal instincts. I just happen to accredit this to the presence of emotion. Compassion, sympathy, and guilt for instance.

And here is where you lost me. Im unable to see where you make the jump from a complex universe to that meaning that it was created by a superior being.

Your reasons for choosing christianity are noble. It's obvious to me that you thought it out and you stress the "good" parts of the religion. You truly enjoy that it makes you live as a better person. But to me, all those things are part of the moral code, not a code instilled in us by a church. I practice forgiveness, selflessness and the lot because my mother did a darn fine job in raising me. I admire you for your recognizing the importance of these virtues, but for the atheist that practices them despite not having a preacher and a book to live by, it makes all the other things that go along with religion seem strange.

Here is where you lose me. I don't see a need for the evolution of human emotion and all that that idea encompasses. (And before you peg me as an ignorant creationist, understand that you and I probably have very similar ideas on how we wound up (scientifically) where were are now. I consider science an ally of Christianity.) What good is art, music, fashion, sexuality, etc. in a natural world? Why, in six billion years, has no other species even come close to these things? And yes, I've seen all the reasons why humans evolved the way they did. But if a human was to evolve to wear clothes, why not cold-blooded animals? Would not other animals benefit from equal levels of intelligence and creativity? If secular evolution works the way I understand it, why are all the other animals essentially stuck at square one in that regard? From that question, I assume that humans wound up this way by design.

Mainly, I cannot wrap my head around this:
Christians claim to have a merciful god. Yet he demands that you worship him and only him, or you'll suffer forever. He demands that you live by these virtues so that you will be rewarded with heaven. No disrespect intended, but is this not the grounds of bribery?

Your concern is a valid one, and one shared by many Christians. And there is no easy answer, and maybe no answer at all. But you are mistaken in believing that God rewards our good works with an eternity in heaven. First of all, Christianity dictates that salvation is obtained through the acceptance of grace alone. Anyone that tells you different doesn't understand the basic tenets of the religion.

Christianity is not a series of rules for humanity to live by until Christ shows back up and takes us all the heaven. Modern Christianity, however, has created this idea that this life doesn't matter, and that everything will be great once we get upstairs. This idea is a recent one, stemming out of Rapture Theology, which is largely a 19th century invention. The idea climaxed in the 1990's with all of the Left Behind nonsense.

Christianity is supposed to be a radical, counter-cultural movement to create an entirely different culture in this world. Whereas humanity seeks power through war, government, spite, and punishment, we seek to create a world through power-under; social justice, service, humility, and love. The rules you speak are teachings to help reach that end. [/QUOTE]

I live a life directed towards bettering myself and all that around me because i think it is the right thing to do. (not saying you dont, ive just heard some christians slip with "if i werent a christian id beat your ass" or the like. Its sickening)

At the end of the day, we are all still humans. We are not perfect, we do not profess to be. Many terrible things have been done in the name in the name of Christ. I do not seek to defend or justify those things. They bring me more disgust than you could imagine.

I guess what im trying to say is that i dont feel a need in faith for a superior being to be fulfilled. I fulfill myself through music, relationships, and the simple things. Ive been to church many a time and never have i come out feeling even close to as full of ecstasy and joy than when i step out of my car after a weekend drive with the windows down, or when i strum my final chord and the crowds applause rolls over me.

I just dont feel the void, you know? Maybe thats where im different than most. I dont need questions answered, and i dont have a yearning to worship a creator.

I don't doubt that you find fulfillment through music, relationships, and the simple things. I've stepped out of my RSX after a long weekend of spirited driving, and finished a good show to the approval of my band's fans. The difference, is that those things connect on a spiritual level for me. My passions are intricately tied to my entire being. I cannot explain it.

My hope for you is that you at least understand that there is more to Christianity than the American civil religion that you observe in your everyday life. We aren't the gay haters, the Left Behinder's or million-dollar pastors; nor are we trying to force you to pray before a football game or hang up a copy of the Ten Commandments. We just read a story about how 12 men were convinced by a mysterious rabbi to change the world and gave their lives for that cause, and decided that we'd do our best to do the same.