I had a thought bout the Bible

[Jaimecbr900]

I will agree that both religious and non-religious topics alike require a certain amount of faith. However, to imply that those who study science require the same amount of faith as those that study the bible is misguided. Let's take a basic principle of both the bible (Jesus is the son of God) and a basic principle of physics (force) as an example.

A. Force

A professor tells a student that if he pushes the side of a wheel (applies force), the wheel will accelerate in the direction of the force. The student calls bullshit. The professor tells the student to read the text book. The student reads it and still calls bullshit. The professor then tells the student, you don't have to believe me, I'll show you. Force is applied, the wheel accelerates.

B. Christ is the son of God

A minister tells a church goer that Jesus Christ is the son of god. The church goer calls bullshit. The minister tells the church goer to read the bible. The church goer still calls bullshit. The minister tells the church goer he must have faith.


I realize this is an incredibly simplistic example. But the matter is, the building blocks of science are things that someone can see and prove for themselves. They don't have to have faith, it occurs right in front of their eyes. With religion even the most simplistic ideas are constructed on faith.

Not only is it a very simplistic example, but it compares apples to airplanes.

Was it not "scholars" that at one point SWORE the earth was flat? How flat is it really? THAT is my point. Each and every one of those people that try and argue this never ending debate base their "beliefs" or lack thereof on "PROOF", i.e. Science, common sense, tangible, etc. Welllll, the "scholars" of yesteryear justified their "knowledge" 50 ways to Sunday and even wrote it down on books of that era. It was taught in schools, common knowledge, and as far as they knew tangible as well since sailors would often dissapear so the theory of "falling off the edge of the earth" held water in their eyes. Right or wrong? Wasn't it just yesterday that we thought a computer had to be monochrome and microprocessors were science fiction?

Well, my point is that it is ironic that I want to put my FAITH, which by definition requires no tangibility from my end, on a book that not only has been around far longer than the "earth is flat" scientologists, but when those that support the idea that I'm crazy and stupid use a BOOK chock full of inaccuracies and unproven theories that next year will be retracted or corrected to "prove" I'm wrong.....they are suddenly automatically right because they read it....in a tangible book..... Get it? Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

My example was also simplistic but much like the Bible carries the basic message correctly. Proponents of the idea that if it's not logical or tangible or "can be proven w/o a doubt right this very second when I say so" then it must absolutely positively be WRONG is ironic because they use information out of BOOKS that are force fed to them by HUMANS whom we all know never make any mistakes at all. Kinda like......well, the pot calling the kettle black......AGAIN.

[Jaimecbr900]

I never once called someone stupid. I never said you were dumb for believing in the Bible. I never said don't do it. I don't know where all this hostility came from. I never "put all my life eggs in the text book basket" and I never said you shouldn't put all your faith in the Bible. I just said I wouldn't and I stated why I wouldn't.

Ok, let's not be passive aggressive now.

You opened a thread in the Religion section which was designed to argue your belief. Don't say now that was not your intention.

I'm not even Christian, but I believe in God. I just don't believe following a book is the "way to God". We can say each side is not credible so why bother? Nothing in life is foolproof.

How do you know about a "God" w/o some sort of Bible as resource?

So only people who go to church are the ones who have manners, a good attitude and dress well? That is kind of biased don't you think? I know there a lot of people who don't believe in anything, but they aren't bad people.

You obviously missed my sarcasm and the overall point. See my previous reply right above this one. I explained it again.

Let me ask you something: If someone says that the sky is blue, and someone else says the sky is gray.......does that change the FACT that the SKY EXISTS????? So if a Bible designed to be easier to read for CHILDREN says something in a more simplistic way or clearer way......does that CHANGE the message? Is that what you guys are trying to imply? That because it's IMPOSSIBLE to translate original Hebrew writings into modern day English that somehow the MESSAGE is lost in the translation? Explain how. Remember: Sky is blue or sky is gray doesn't change that the sky is there, just you say tomato and I say tomatoe.

No offense, but you have this problem where you talk to people like you're so much better than them.

Again, tomato and tomatoes. You are entitled to think whatever you want, much like I am. I don't candy coat things. If you want to take that as harsh, then so be it.

What angers me is this: How many times did or do your parents tell you something that later turns out to be soooooo true? Quite often I'd bet. When you, me, and everyone on this planet were young we all thought we had ALL the answers to every question. We were invincible, unbreakable, and omnipotent. Atleast I thought I was. I knew it all. Well, guess what? We didn't. Not by far. As each of us grow up, we clearly see how naive and short sighted we really were back then.

So when I see a very young person falling back on their ass "knowing" that they have the world figured out at 20.......I laugh and I call them out. It is what it is. Reality bites sometimes. It sucks. I know. But that's life.

[Jaimecbr900]

I really just glanced over and ignored whatever else you wrote as being completely irrelevant...But I will address this since you are so eager.

Many fundamentalist Christians believe the Bible is inerrant or infallible, but for those that do not there is a branch of philology or bibliography called "Textual Criticism" or "Higher Criticism".

Textual criticism is concerned with the identification and removal of errors from texts and manuscripts. Ancient manuscripts often have errors or alterations made by scribes, who copied the manuscripts by hand. The textual critic seeks to determine the original text of a document or a collection of documents, which the critic believes to come as close as possible to a lost original.

From the scholarly point of view, the differences in various Biblical manuscripts are well-documented. A few well-known variants include:


John 7:53-John 8:1-11, traditionally known as the pericope adulterae, is not contained in the earliest and best manuscripts and was almost certainly not an original part of the Gospel of John. Among modern commentators and textual critics, it is a foregone conclusion that the section is not original but represents a later addition to the text of the Gospel. Critical text scholar Bruce Metzger summarizes: "The evidence for the non-Johannine origin of the pericope of the adulteress is overwhelming."

Mark 16:9-20 does not exist in the earliest and best manuscripts. Virtually all scholars believe it was a later addition, added by scribes who felt the original ending was unsatisfactory.

1 John 5:7-8 — "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" — the infamous Comma Johanneum, is accepted as a later insertion by virtually every scholar. It is most interesting that it is the only explicit reference to the Trinity in the New Testament, yet it is not part of the original epistle, but dates from probably the fourth century.

Matt. 5:22 The phrase "without a cause" appears in some early manuscripts and some writings of early church fathers, but this phrase does not appear in the earliest manuscript (Papyrus 67 dated AD 125-150) nor in the earliest church father writing (Justin dated about 165 AD) of Matthew 5:22. Virtually all scholars believe that this phrase was added by the third century. (It is notable that this phrase is in the King James Bible but it is not in the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith Translation of Matthew 5:22.)

John 1:18 is notoriously difficult because various manuscripts read either monogenes theos ("the only God") or ho monogenes huios("the only son").

Heb. 1:3 reads "reveals (phaneron) all things" in the Codex Vaticanus, while most manuscripts read "sustains (pheron) all things". This is particularly interesting because there's a scribe's marginal note in the CV that reads "Fool and knave, leave the old reading, don't change it!", indicating contention over an intentional change in the passage.


I am just stating a few examples, but a simple google search will yield alot more on this subject...Personally I don't give a shit if god himself wrote the Bible, or if you think the work is infallible or not. It is only worth as much as the paper it is printed on, and the blood that has been spilled in his name.

Much like you supposedly did, yet addressed my entire post, I skimmed over your "googled" content.

That's awesome that you can "google it". I guess the irony of you buying what you find on the net hook, line, and sinker is lost in translation to you, huh? We all know that everything on the net is 100% true...........just pointing out how YOU too put so much FAITH on things that you find on the net, yet you make fun of people who put FAITH on something else....... Pots and kettles again.

Ok, from what I skimmed through on your post it seems that you are grasping at straws. Know why? Because my main question still persists:

Here it is......


Pay attention........



Think about it before you answer..........


Ready?...........


Sure?............


Ok............


Here we go........






HOW DOES CHANGING A FEW WORDS AROUND TO MAKE IT LEGIBLE IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE CHANGETHE OVERALL MESSAGE OR MEANING?

Should I give you the gray and blue sky example again?

[geoff]

i like you jaime lol. you have made some really good points. i would like to add this, the bible has been translated into over 160 languages but has kept the same message of one God, one faith, one baptism, one way. the koran? i dont even think its allowed for them to translate it. the biblical texts and the idea of this God Jehova has been around for THOUSANDS of years, never once has God changed His message, meaning, translation, ect....He has been the same always. it brings me up to a scripture, the bible says that heaven and earth shall pass away but His words shall not.....just to go along with jaime's statement about ever changing science text books.

[JDM onlyy]

Ok, let's not be passive aggressive now.

You opened a thread in the Religion section which was designed to argue your belief. Don't say now that was not your intention.



How do you know about a "God" w/o some sort of Bible as resource?



You obviously missed my sarcasm and the overall point. See my previous reply right above this one. I explained it again.

Let me ask you something: If someone says that the sky is blue, and someone else says the sky is gray.......does that change the FACT that the SKY EXISTS????? So if a Bible designed to be easier to read for CHILDREN says something in a more simplistic way or clearer way......does that CHANGE the message? Is that what you guys are trying to imply? That because it's IMPOSSIBLE to translate original Hebrew writings into modern day English that somehow the MESSAGE is lost in the translation? Explain how. Remember: Sky is blue or sky is gray doesn't change that the sky is there, just you say tomato and I say tomatoe.



Again, tomato and tomatoes. You are entitled to think whatever you want, much like I am. I don't candy coat things. If you want to take that as harsh, then so be it.

What angers me is this: How many times did or do your parents tell you something that later turns out to be soooooo true? Quite often I'd bet. When you, me, and everyone on this planet were young we all thought we had ALL the answers to every question. We were invincible, unbreakable, and omnipotent. Atleast I thought I was. I knew it all. Well, guess what? We didn't. Not by far. As each of us grow up, we clearly see how naive and short sighted we really were back then.

So when I see a very young person falling back on their ass "knowing" that they have the world figured out at 20.......I laugh and I call them out. It is what it is. Reality bites sometimes. It sucks. I know. But that's life.

I did open this thread to start a discussion/debate, not to demean or call anyone stupid. You obviously must've interpreted that the wrong.

FYI, I was baptized in a baptist church. I never said I knew everything in the world.

When the hell did I say I knew everything in the world?

How the hell is my age relevant to this debate?

I have no problem with people being harsh, I'm harsh myself, but you speak to me because of my "age" like I don't know anything. How the hell do you know what I know and don't know? You don't know me. So don't act like you do.

With that being said, I'm done with this thread because its already starting to escalate to a point where I never wanted it to be because someone took something personally.

[geoff]

you may not mean it to but just like some of you think we as christians think we are better than you, we take it offesively when you as non christians, atheists, ect... sit there and tell us that our faith is based on words that are wrong or written by men. i believe that i am correct when i say that jaime and myself have a personal relationship with the Lord and until you seek the same thing you really dont know anything when it comes to faith

[JDM onlyy]

you may not mean it to but just like some of you think we as christians think we are better than you, we take it offesively when you as non christians, atheists, ect... sit there and tell us that our faith is based on words that are wrong or written by men. i believe that i am correct when i say that jaime and myself have a personal relationship with the Lord and until you seek the same thing you really dont know anything when it comes to faith

Once again with the acting like you people know me. I do have faith, just might not be in the same things you have faith in. How do you know I don't have faith in another religion?

You guys have to stop assuming things and acting like you guys know everything...seriously.

[SPOOLIN]

lol

IA: The Religion Slaughter House.

[Deke]

Not only is it a very simplistic example, but it compares apples to airplanes.

Was it not "scholars" that at one point SWORE the earth was flat? How flat is it really? THAT is my point. Each and every one of those people that try and argue this never ending debate base their "beliefs" or lack thereof on "PROOF", i.e. Science, common sense, tangible, etc. Welllll, the "scholars" of yesteryear justified their "knowledge" 50 ways to Sunday and even wrote it down on books of that era. It was taught in schools, common knowledge, and as far as they knew tangible as well since sailors would often dissapear so the theory of "falling off the edge of the earth" held water in their eyes. Right or wrong? Wasn't it just yesterday that we thought a computer had to be monochrome and microprocessors were science fiction?

Well, my point is that it is ironic that I want to put my FAITH, which by definition requires no tangibility from my end, on a book that not only has been around far longer than the "earth is flat" scientologists, but when those that support the idea that I'm crazy and stupid use a BOOK chock full of inaccuracies and unproven theories that next year will be retracted or corrected to "prove" I'm wrong.....they are suddenly automatically right because they read it....in a tangible book..... Get it? Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

My example was also simplistic but much like the Bible carries the basic message correctly. Proponents of the idea that if it's not logical or tangible or "can be proven w/o a doubt right this very second when I say so" then it must absolutely positively be WRONG is ironic because they use information out of BOOKS that are force fed to them by HUMANS whom we all know never make any mistakes at all. Kinda like......well, the pot calling the kettle black......AGAIN.

My point is exactly this:

y...jaime and myself have a personal relationship with the Lord and until you seek the same thing you really dont know anything when it comes to faith

With religion, one has to have faith to have faith (as weird as that may sound). With science one can use their senses/scientific method and have faith.

Now there are definitely scientific theories that can/have been proven wrong. The difference is science strives for constant improvement. In science you can prove something is wrong even if you believe in your heart of hearts that it is fact. With religion it is impossible to prove anything in this existence. You simply have to have faith that it is the truth, because no one can ever prove it wrong or right.

Now if you want to get into History textbooks, I can absolutely agree. Whoever is in power writes the history.



Regardless of anyone's opinion, the content of this discussion has an obvious problem (much like any religious debate). Anyone that does not believe in the Bible, believes that it was written by man, and therefore cannot be trusted. Anyone that does believe in the Bible, believes it is the direct word of God, and an all-powerful being would not allow his word to become corrupt.

Bottom line: to believe in the Bible you have to believe in the content of the Bible. Therefore, anyone that doesn't think the Bible is credible, will NEVER think the bible is credible. Much like someone who does believe in the Bible's credibility, will ALWAYS believe in the Bible's credibility.

And with that, I've pretty much talked myself out of any further participation in this thread. It's been fun gentlemen.

[Jaimecbr900]

My point is exactly this:



With religion, one has to have faith to have faith (as weird as that may sound). With science one can use their senses/scientific method and have faith.

Now there are definitely scientific theories that can/have been proven wrong. The difference is science strives for constant improvement. In science you can prove something is wrong even if you believe in your heart of hearts that it is fact. With religion it is impossible to prove anything in this existence. You simply have to have faith that it is the truth, because no one can ever prove it wrong or right.

Now if you want to get into History textbooks, I can absolutely agree. Whoever is in power writes the history.



Regardless of anyone's opinion, the content of this discussion has an obvious problem (much like any religious debate). Anyone that does not believe in the Bible, believes that it was written by man, and therefore cannot be trusted. Anyone that does believe in the Bible, believes it is the direct word of God, and an all-powerful being would not allow his word to become corrupt.

Bottom line: to believe in the Bible you have to believe in the content of the Bible. Therefore, anyone that doesn't think the Bible is credible, will NEVER think the bible is credible. Much like someone who does believe in the Bible's credibility, will ALWAYS believe in the Bible's credibility.

And with that, I've pretty much talked myself out of any further participation in this thread. It's been fun gentlemen.

Kudos for making reasonable sense and open to both points of views.

I too am done with this thread. I tried to be very clear, yet the OP still thinks that somehow I'm talking down my nose at people because I stick to my stance and rebut points directly. I seem to pounce on people when they step all over their own tongues. Maybe I should've been a trial lawyer or something. Whatever.

[BallerDave04]

If you have read the Bible, which most people haven't. You would know that 85% of the prophecies written in there have come true and can be proven with historical references. The other 15% are to come in the near future. So, God has been correct 100% of the time so far. I don't need prove to have faith, but that seems to be prove enough for me.

[BallerDave04]

The only accurate way to interpret any version of the Bible is to translate it back to the original Hebrew and Greek. The English versions do not fully portrait what the author of the letters and books were trying to express. When you seek, you will find.

[StreetHazard]

Well why don't all of you believers just sit down and have a little online Bible study?

The accuracy of the words itself seems to be vastly more important to a believer than to someone that does not really care at all what is written inside the book, or is not.

In my case it falls inside the latter...For me the entire concept and guidelines set forth in book can all be described as.

"Thou shalt not"

have any fun whatsoever, it's entire belief of "Original Sin" and human accountability is ridiculous and there is no justification for it. The bible is demanding reparations of humanity that is has in no means, ever deserved.

You guys can argue the accuracy of the Bible itself all you want, and I don't give a shit if Jesus wrote it himself, in his own blood. It does not negate it's policy of mental slavery it has wielded over it's adherents since it's inception, it's embracing of bigotry and violence to secure itself into the minds of millions across the globe, not giving a god damn if they wanted to believe or not, convincing them of eternal torments in the afterlife, and like any proper dictatorship through threats and tactics of fear and violence "Do as I say or you will be punished". Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.

I really do not care if your god is real or not. I will bow down to no one. And I refuse to do anything under threats of damnation. If heaven will be filled with born-again Christians and Evangelicals, than that is the last place I would want to be. A place that boring...a place full of that much sophistry, hate, douchbaggery, ignorance, biggotry and violence is the last place I would want to spend eternity. But very well fits my definition of a personal hell.

[geoff]

from your mouth to God's ears

[StreetHazard]

from your mouth to God's ears

and why should I care what "god" hears?

If he does not like it, I suppose I will roast inside a fiery pit in Hades. proving the wrathful, jealous, insecure nature of your flawed cowardly god. So cowardly that he needs to threaten those that attempt to disobey or discredit his divine words, instead of proving them wrong and without merit, along with the rest of his flock so filled with righteous indignation.

Abrahamic religion had it's time, it's hay-day has come and passed like egyptian sun-worship and greek mythology. There will be a time eventually when your holy bible and the Koran will be placed on people's book shelf next to the "Illiad" and the works of Shakespear. It will not be treated as anything more than just a book.

[StreetHazard]

double post

[geoff]

burning in hell after judgement day is not the only way people can be punished....your use very bold words my friend. and the abrahamic religions with not fade away. they have been going strong for thousands of years, besides, you wont have to wait to much longer before Jesus returns and you will see beyond a shadow of a doubt how wrong you are.

[Jaimecbr900]

Well why don't all of you believers just sit down and have a little online Bible study?

The accuracy of the words itself seems to be vastly more important to a believer than to someone that does not really care at all what is written inside the book, or is not.

In my case it falls inside the latter...For me the entire concept and guidelines set forth in book can all be described as.

"Thou shalt not"

have any fun whatsoever, it's entire belief of "Original Sin" and human accountability is ridiculous and there is no justification for it. The bible is demanding reparations of humanity that is has in no means, ever deserved.

You guys can argue the accuracy of the Bible itself all you want, and I don't give a shit if Jesus wrote it himself, in his own blood. It does not negate it's policy of mental slavery it has wielded over it's adherents since it's inception, it's embracing of bigotry and violence to secure itself into the minds of millions across the globe, not giving a god damn if they wanted to believe or not, convincing them of eternal torments in the afterlife, and like any proper dictatorship through threats and tactics of fear and violence "Do as I say or you will be punished". Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.

I really do not care if your god is real or not. I will bow down to no one. And I refuse to do anything under threats of damnation. If heaven will be filled with born-again Christians and Evangelicals, than that is the last place I would want to be. A place that boring...a place full of that much sophistry, hate, douchbaggery, ignorance, biggotry and violence is the last place I would want to spend eternity. But very well fits my definition of a personal hell.

I see you avoided my question like fat girl does diets.

So basically what you're saying is that no matter what "proof" or logical rebuttal you get handed to you on a silver platter that totally shatters your illogical views you will continue to believe what you want to believe. Hmmmm, Christians are the only closed minded people around here, huh?

Oh, BTW......how's that all knowing Science working for ya now that they found fossils which totally screw the pooch on your super uber smart scientist's timeline of earth? Guess that's a great reliable thing to hang your hat on, huh? What's next? Scientists discover that the earth is really flat? Hmmmmmm, that crazy unreliable Bible of mine STILL says the same thing today as it did yesterday even though the word "the" got omitted on a couple of them. Imagine that.

Whatever dude. You're just an instigator. You want to get under people's skin for your own jollies in all these discussions.

[StreetHazard]

I see you avoided my question like fat girl does diets.

So basically what you're saying is that no matter what "proof" or logical rebuttal you get handed to you on a silver platter that totally shatters your illogical views you will continue to believe what you want to believe. Hmmmm, Christians are the only closed minded people around here, huh?

Oh, BTW......how's that all knowing Science working for ya now that they found fossils which totally screw the pooch on your super uber smart scientist's timeline of earth? Guess that's a great reliable thing to hang your hat on, huh? What's next? Scientists discover that the earth is really flat? Hmmmmmm, that crazy unreliable Bible of mine STILL says the same thing today as it did yesterday even though the word "the" got omitted on a couple of them. Imagine that.

Whatever dude. You're just an instigator. You want to get under people's skin for your own jollies in all these discussions.

I think there are more important questions to ask...

Like why are you such a fucking asshole?

Or, what the fuck is your problem?

Or what the fuck are you try to prove OR convince any us of?

Are you asking me personally what I think of your original question? Or what do I think about "new fossils". Your questions seem to be sporadic.

The answer to all of them is "I could give a fuck less". You cannot convince me the truth of your Christ is much as I can convince you out of it. And I am well past these typical atheistic debates of black holes, big bangs, dinosaurs, evolutionary synthesis and the such. You really seem to be over complicating your opinion of my position in the matter.

But since you are so rational and very logical you can accept an eye of Sauron watching over and controlling your every move. And cannot even consider the non-existence of such. And I personally do not give a shit what anyone thinks of me personally, or ANY of my views and I don't care what you do with yourself as long as you do not interfere with any aspect of my life. And if my words piss anyone off then they should probably get out into the world more and stop being such a pussy.

I really don't give a shit what you believe Jamie, it's whatever you want to convince yourself of.

[Jaimecbr900]

I think there are more important questions to ask...

So what you're saying is that either, A: YOU can't answer the question because you know I'm right and it would make you look foolish, or B: YOU won't answer the question because you know that the answer would make you look foolish? Got it.

Like why are you such a fucking asshole?

Ahhhh, so obviously I've hit a fragile nerve somewhere with you? I see. Well, you have 2 choices in this matter: 1. Get over it, or 2. Get over it. Pick one. Doesn't matter to me which one.

BTW, if you want to elevate this to a personal level......I have ZERO problems with doing that Mr. Ingram. Just be aware that you may need to both pack a lunch and realize that I'm not too big on the idea of "turning the other cheek". Remember that.

Or, what the fuck is your problem?

Seems you're the one with the "problem" here. So answer yourself the question if you're that concerned about it.

Or what the fuck are you try to prove OR convince any us of?

First, it's "trying" not "try".

Second, I honestly and sincerely don't have any concern if YOU or anyone else believes what I believe. Much like I could care less if your car gets repo'd or not since I don't get to drive it nor pay for it. I can, however, tell you, when asked, that it sucks.....or it's slow....or it's a girly car.....right? Well that's all I'm doing here. When the question(s) are asked, I merely give out the information that I think is right. IF, in the analogy, you STILL get your car repo'd just like I told you may happen if you don't pay for it, then just WHO is at fault? Me or you? So why would I be the bad guy for warning you instead of looking at yourself for not paying? Think about that one for a little bit and let me know. If you don't get the correlation of my analogy, I'll be happy to dummy it down for you further.

Are you asking me personally what I think of your original question? Or what do I think about "new fossils". Your questions seem to be sporadic.

Glad you can spell "sporadic", although you ate a question mark.

I asked a very simple question which you obviously are refusing to answer. The question was, "How does the overall message CHANGE if you merely translate it into a different language?". The fossils statement was referring to the recent finding of fossilized foot prints which totally negate previously preached "facts" about the earth's timeline, which goes to further PROVE my stance that "Science" (which most of you Atheists use to rebuke the existance of a "God") is not only fallible but also quite often corrects itself.

So maybe you thought I was sporadic, but I knew quite well exactly where I was going with my statements. Sorry to have shot down yet another one of your theories.

The answer to all of them is "I could give a fuck less". You cannot convince me the truth of your Christ is much as I can convince you out of it. And I am well past these typical atheistic debates of black holes, big bangs, dinosaurs, evolutionary synthesis and the such. You really seem to be over complicating your opinion of my position in the matter.

On the contrary, I totally see your simplistic stance. You don't care what anyone says. You don't care how much common sense it makes. You don't care to use logic. You don't care to take the time to even remotely fathom that there just may be some small chance that someone else may be on to something. Ohhhhh, I got you. No worries. You're actually "a dime a dozen", so don't feel too lonely. This would explain why we have the world we live in and the problems we have.....because there are quite a few people out there that think exactly like you do.

But since you are so rational and very logical you can accept an eye of Sauron watching over and controlling your every move. And cannot even consider the non-existence of such. And I personally do not give a shit what anyone thinks of me personally, or ANY of my views and I don't care what you do with yourself as long as you do not interfere with any aspect of my life. And if my words piss anyone off then they should probably get out into the world more and stop being such a pussy.

If you want to believe that my God is a mythical character, that is totally your perrogative. Again, I don't drive your car nor pay for it, so when it gets repo'd.......I certainly won't shed a single tear.

I really don't give a shit what you believe Jamie, it's whatever you want to convince yourself of.

Well, and that is where we can gladly leave it, you and I. Agree to dissagree. You go your way, and I go mine.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What do I have to lose if I'm wrong? Nothing, even according to you and the rest of the non-believers, right? I mean IF there really is no God at all then even according to you there will be no "punishment" for that once I die, right? Unless you're a Devil worshiper, there is no "punishment" for us believers, right? So exactly what do I have to lose? IF I'm wrong, like you want everyone to believe, it's a win-win situation for me. I merely spent my life in the equivalent of buying insurance just in case YOU were wrong, right? So just WHO is the smart one then? Me for buying insurance, or YOU for not having any when you need it???? Again, think about that little tid bit and get back to me on it.

Have a nice day.

[bodhi]

omgz jaime is on a rampage!! schoolin' fools
and no one can put him in his place... i thought this section had super intellectuals that could easily pull his nuts off and shove him down his throat

guess i was wrong.. : (

[StreetHazard]

omgz jaime is on a rampage!! schoolin' fools
and no one can put him in his place... i thought this section had super intellectuals that could easily pull his nuts off and shove him down his throat

guess i was wrong.. : (

I (almost) want to take a stab at it, I just don't care enough...hopefully someone else can pick up the slack.

[ueyedgr8tness]

WOW i thought we were done with these threads?


I like to keep it simple,u need to believe in something because we all go there some how right?wEll lets see my options.

science=Big bang theory
I don't believe athiest and science because there is way to much error in it 24/7 some say we came from monkey's others say boom! were here lol!

Why would i want to read something that some scientist has been wrong about multiple times?

GOD=creator
I love this fact because i can read through the bible and see things come to pass that is mentioned.



U tell me we came from apes.I say ok i am willing to live with that but who made the apes? Better yet if there was a big boom and we all was here, who set off the boom?Some 1 had to do it.I am personally so done with trying to explain how it works because you can't teach some 1 that has no love for the truth,truth.also lets do a little search on a better world if the bible ran it vs science.



Bible=ten commandments if every 1 liked there life after it we would not have a bad world.

science=pretty much what the world is coming to.As the day's get older the world gets worse and we all can agree to that.

I think its a shame that we as americans have to have discussions like this considering the usa was founded on god,and just watch how things have gotten alot worse because they have taken god out of our schools and shoved there science myth down our kids throat.Not to mention look back in the old day's when kids prayed in school before starting the day and pledge alligience to god VS Pledging to the flag and shooting up schools during lunch. WOW! is there any comparison on which 1 u want to believe?The bottom line is the world is a better place with the bible and faith in god vs mans factor in a myth that has errors to the core.

[Starrfire]

omgz jaime is on a rampage!! schoolin' fools
and no one can put him in his place... i thought this section had super intellectuals that could easily pull his nuts off and shove him down his throat

guess i was wrong.. : (

Not unless someone can prove god doesn't exist. The thing either side lacks is proof. Why does it matter why we are here I say? We just are. I make the best of it every day.

If some people want to believe in the boogey man that is their perogative. This country was built on religious freedom, which means you can choose to believe what you want be it a god or lack thereof. Pushing religion to mainstream is difficult to justify since its supposed to be a closed doors thing like the "guide" to Christianity states.

I don't like Religion because they all can't prove anything, just like scientists can't prove the big bang. They all sound stupid to me but I'll find out one day.

And as far as the car thing I'll take my chances with liability insurance and just pay for it myself and take all responsibility.

/thread for me

[Jaimecbr900]

And as far as the car thing I'll take my chances with liability insurance and just pay for it myself and take all responsibility.

/thread for me

Not believing in God is not "liability insurance" it's actually not having any "insurance" at all in my analogy.

[bodhi]

tomorrow i will try to attack some of the "points" jaime has made in this thread (if i have enough time)

those that dont participate are lame doodoo heads


btw the whole insurance analogy is pretty played out
why cant ppl come up with new rebuttals when discussing about religion? ugh, you silly guys....

[StreetHazard]

Not believing in God is not "liability insurance" it's actually not having any "insurance" at all in my analogy.

This analogy just reeks of fear in my opinion...it is also not a fair one because it implies that the concept of god is a real threat. The only insurance I would like to have involving religion, is insurance that will.

Protect my basic civil rights regarding free speech.

Protect my well being and property if I find myself in the cross-fire of a holy war.

Protect myself from spilling blood due to warfare if I choose to relocate to a "holy land"

Insurance that I will not be persecuted because of my sexual orientation or religious views.

Insurance that my female companion will never have to endure the loss of her civil rights.

"they say in war, truth is the first casualty"

Both Muhammad
And Christ would like
to lay
Your body down
To a tune
So wild international
In the desert
Full of bullets
Let your body rot
With my chrome
With my verse
With my body rock


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mKtt7F0rPU

[bu villain]

WOW i thought we were done with these threads?......

I'm speechless. No way to argue with this rock solid logic.

[ueyedgr8tness]

What i love the best about these young kids going on about athiest and science is.I have been all over the country and heard this none since bs about it,and i like to get them in a corner and let them tell you what they really feelAthiest act like they don't believe in god but in the back of there mind they no he does exist.U people say show me a miracle that god exist? I say look at urself and thats the miracle of god because how else would we get here.The earth can not just form a human body it is just impossible.The fact that u guy's have no ground to stand on on where u come from gives u no base of truth in the 1st place.Go to isreal for urself and look at all the places that are out of the bible and see if they line up.And untill then just stop making useless threads of stuff that we have been over to many times.

[5speed]

U people say show me a miracle that god exist? I say look at urself and thats the miracle of god

100% Correct. You cant really argue this even with factual science. Then most would ask, "Well how did God come about?" I will forever say that is for God to know and for you to find out...in death. Being in existence from what we know as nothing is part of what makes God. I may not claim any religion or major beliefs but no one can ever convince me there is no God.

[StreetHazard]

What i love the best about these young kids going on about athiest and science is.I have been all over the country and heard this none since bs about it,and i like to get them in a corner and let them tell you what they really feelAthiest act like they don't believe in god but in the back of there mind they no he does exist.U people say show me a miracle that god exist? I say look at urself and thats the miracle of god because how else would we get here.The earth can not just form a human body it is just impossible.The fact that u guy's have no ground to stand on on where u come from gives u no base of truth in the 1st place.Go to isreal for urself and look at all the places that are out of the bible and see if they line up.And untill then just stop making useless threads of stuff that we have been over to many times.

This "kid" surpasses you in age by almost a decade. But mostly what I like about Atheism is the lack of guilt for things I know are not wrong in the first place, or not needing the constraints of religious dogma to shape (or skew) my morality. And I like the hours...24-7, I do not turn it on and off when I find it convenient for me, (like if I wanted to fuck a man, or have premarital sex, or abort an unwanted pregnancy..ect..ect). I don't believe in the existence of an anthropomorphic being in any way, shape or form at all. And my philosophy may have even traveled beyond Atheism in the fact that I have simply stopped caring if a god really exists or not. It's not that "deep down" I care...it's deep down I do not care either way. I wouldn't kneel to your god under any condition, not even to save my own skin...in this life, OR in the afterlife as abrahamic religion's view on morality conflicts with my own...I find your gods treatment of human life quite literally inhuman, cruel and sadistic, and his son Jesus Christ's views irrelevant and unrealistic. This view should not be taken as a view other "non-believers" commonly share.

The idea Jamie is putting forth, and what Bodhi has alluded too as a very typical argument, is what is known as Pascal's Wager.

The argument goes like this. Either there is a god or there isn’t. If you believe in God, and God exists, then you win big time and go to Heaven. If you don’t believe in God, and God exists, you lose big time and go to Hell. If there is no god, then you haven’t lost much by believing. So the obvious choice is to believe in God, because it’s simply the best bet.

Pascal’s Wager has several faults. The biggest problem is that it’s not a proof of any god’s existence. It’s just an argument for believing, a method of extorting the masses through fear...believing through fear of punishment is almost the entire concept Christianity is hinged upon.

Pascal’s Wager also depends on the idea that you don’t lose much by believing. This has been false for many who have trusted in their god for help or guidance instead of trusting themselves to accomplish hurdles in their lives. And the obvious current fact that people are fighting, killing and dying for their belief in god in the very streets of your sacred piss hole inside Jerusalem, your celestial shit pile in the sands (stay-up), and throughout the rest of your desert deities stomping grounds in the middle-east. Where the vile black death of abrahamic religion has spread from its walls like an overflowing toilet bowl contaminating and poisoning everything it touches with the foul stink of this phony virtue called "faith".

It is also not taking into consideration alternative religions or philosophies might be right about their beliefs as well.

[5speed]

It’s just an argument for believing, a method of extorting the masses through fear...believing through fear of punishment is almost the entire concept Christianity is hinged upon.

Pascal’s Wager also depends on the idea that you don’t lose much by believing. This has been false for many who have trusted in their god for help or guidance instead of trusting themselves to accomplish hurdles in their lives. And the obvious current fact that people are fighting, killing and dying for their belief in god in the very streets of your sacred piss hole inside Jerusalem, your celestial shit pile in the sands (stay-up), and throughout the rest of your desert deities stomping grounds in the middle-east. Where the vile black death of abrahamic religion has spread from its walls like an overflowing toilet bowl contaminating and poisoning everything it touches with the foul stink of this phony virtue called "faith".

It is also not taking into consideration alternative religions or philosophies might be right about their beliefs as well.

I concur. But if there is in fact a hell,and the the mighty Lucifer, I will have Richard Simmons anal rape him and give him a good hard cockslap.

[StreetHazard]

I concur. But if there is in fact a hell,and the the mighty Lucifer, I will have Richard Simmons anal rape him and give him a good hard cockslap.

If I really had to pick a team, I would probably have go with the big lovable red guy.

[5speed]

If I really had to pick a team, I would probably have go with the big lovable red guy.

lol

[geoff]

you guys laugh and joke but havent taken the time to open your eyes, minds, and hearts to the true spiritual powers in this life. you 5speed have experienced the power of God. how could you joke around?

[JDM onlyy]

This "kid" surpasses you in age by almost a decade.

He's 3 years older than me....

[JDM onlyy]

you guys laugh and joke but havent taken the time to open your eyes, minds, and hearts to the true spiritual powers in this life. you 5speed have experienced the power of God. how could you joke around?

lirl. sounds like your life is a bit dull...

[5speed]

you guys laugh and joke but havent taken the time to open your eyes, minds, and hearts to the true spiritual powers in this life. you 5speed have experienced the power of God. how could you joke around?

Yes I have experienced what I believe to be the spirit of God but dont believe it was strictly through Christianity. People of other many religions whether Abrahamic or not have experienced such things as well. You cant take that away from them or me. What beliefs that go along with that is up to them.

I just believe that if God is what the Bible says he is then it doesnt give God the responsibility for any his flaws. You cant blame everything on the devil that goes wrong. If God is the knows all/ ends all the Bible says he is,then it should accept that he messed up creating beings that he knew would bring horrible things.

[bodhi]

okay, so let me see what i can do to bring some poker chips back to the table of logic

i really don't know where to start;
lemme start off by saying that ppl who believe in god and the bible should be like this jaime guy, and not like geoff lol
who seems like nothing more than a robot whos only purpose is to yell out "GOD IS TRUTH... GOD IS TRUTH... NA-NA-NANA-NAAA-NA" like a crazy, delusional, drooling monkey


oh and stay_up, is just... a moron lol
i have no idea what hes talking about or if his posts even have a point

i doubt it, but his ability to post like a retard is quite impressive
normally ppl try to act smart not the other way around, this, is what makes it interesting haha, stay_up - just stop and remove your lack of knowledge from this section... you cant debate because you're as big of a closeminded dimwit as geoff.

keep the faith strong though; hopefully one day you'll come to realize that youve been wasting your time praying to a person thats not even there... who'll never respond, and who'll never be known as truth to others.

some of you should be forced to have electroshock therapy; to try to recover some brain cells or something...it amazes the shit out of me that in this day and age we still have religious gimptards who try to push their small minded ideas just to prop up their belief structure.


anywayz!!!


lets get on to the only one who makes... sense... kinda...

Not believing in God is not "liability insurance" it's actually not having any "insurance" at all in my analogy

like i said... the whole insurance analogy is pretty outdated and overused
believing that if you have faith in a spiritual being that you will be in the green; that you'll have access to heaven because youve been playing it safe. how does this even make sense??!

do you honestly believe in this?
that its better to be safe than sorry?

The fossils statement was referring to the recent finding of fossilized foot prints which totally negate previously preached "facts" about the earth's timeline, which goes to further PROVE my stance that "Science" (which most of you Atheists use to rebuke the existance of a "God") is not only fallible but also quite often corrects itself.

Sorry to have shot down yet another one of your theories.

you didnt grab your shotgun and shoot his theory down - rather you just picked at it by adding some "roll eyes" and "goodjob" smilies to your posts, and called it a day
not even bothering to go deep into streethaztard's theory


so because a few scientists kinda fucked up on calculating the "approximate" age of a foot print then this means that all of their other facts and accomplishments are bogus?

gimme a break! they taught you about protons and electrons... about planets that are outside of this one... they taught you things about our ecosystem, dna, ect. just because they make SMALL errors - then that makes them useless in a discussion about RELIGION?? religion has FLAWS all over the damn place, but ppl like you still believe the words are true, and that... if you are careful, by giving 10% of your income and getting on your knees for some god that youve never even seen or felt or heard, or... well you get the point


atheists dont all use science in their rebuttals
they use reason and logic

common sense...

something a lot of religions ppl dont have, nor will ever accept into their lives.

now, i agree that science isnt always 100% true; since it deals with so many factors, experiments, tests, and research...but how can someone thats on the religious side actually try to argue a case that has scientific facts to disprove it?

the possibility of an actual GOD exciting is very, very, VERY goddamn low... have you never smoked a "fat blunt" and just look up and ask yourself "how someone can actually believe in such ridiculous things as the bible and the existence of an all knowning god? "I'M GOING TO CREATE MAN AND WOMAN - WITH ORIGINAL SIN, THEN I AM GOING TO IMPREGNATE A VIRGIN WITH MYSELF AS HER CHILD, SO THAT I CAN BE BORN (because a god obviously needs a mortal woman's uterus to be given life hahaha really???) ONCE ALIVE, I WILL KILL MYSELF AS A SACRIFICE TO MYSELF - TO SAVE YOU FROM THE SIN THAT I ORIGINAL CONDEMNED YOU TO.

haha the whole virgin birth is so played out the egyptians used it 10k years before "jesus christ's" era...

On the contrary, I totally see your simplistic stance. You don't care what anyone says. You don't care how much common sense it makes. You don't care to use logic. You don't care to take the time to even remotely fathom that there just may be some small chance that someone else may be on to something. Ohhhhh, I got you. No worries. You're actually "a dime a dozen", so don't feel too lonely. This would explain why we have the world we live in and the problems we have.....because there are quite a few people out there that think exactly like you do

how ironic to use the word logic when backing up religion

its okay to think "hmm there might be something out there that i have no idea of, that might have a strong influence on life and the shit around us..."
being spiritual and a jesus christ cheerleader are two different things. when i tell friends of mine that i am working on my spirituality, or exploring my spirituality, they usually laugh and say to stop smoking so much weed,
but it means debating or thinking about things that extend beyond our day to day existence. things like universal order, the idea of self, what happens after death, what happens before life.

things ya know, that religious ppl think about lulz hey look, i used two "roll eyes" smilies that are supposed to show sarcasm, too!! we have so much in common huh????

yeah so, in essence spirituality, to me, closesly relates to exploring any metaphysical ideas.
religions are organized ways of explaining metaphysical ideas - unfortunately most religions being organized are static and dogmatic. its a lot easier for a person to look at who they are and say, I have changed my mind about belief xyz...than the Vatican to say...oops we fucked up don't kill the gays.


so tell me jaime, are you a spiritual person or religious whackjob?

the truth and false percentage in religion tends to be higher on the fiction side because its only purpose is well... to make ppl feel better... to make ppl believe that if they pray their guts out that their wishes will come true!!! thats why religion sells!! and ppl keep buy'n

at least to those kinds of people -
people incapable or unwilling to participate in critical thinking always fall face first on the floor of fiction

So just WHO is the smart one then? Me for buying insurance, or YOU for not having any when you need it???? Again, think about that little tid bit and get back to me on it

he is, because he didnt waste his life paying for insurance when he didnt nor will ever need it

there is nothing to think about - zero. nothing.




more smilies!!!

smilies are for children who get good grades on their report cards...


something that ive learned is that ppl who use hallucinogenic drugs are sometimes far more intelligent than ppl that are not haha, take geoff, streethaztard, stay_up... and me. not sure about them, but lsd is awesome - sometimes lol
its funny when ppl that have a boring and oldschool lifestyle talk down to ppl who do as they wish and questions everything, but still end up making the cheerleaders seem like total morons..


maybe i need to get me a lab coat so i can seem more legit when i make unfounded dumbass claims, right???
either that or a huge gold crown and dress like a fucking king - go door to door annoying ppl, talk about magic and the power of pray haha... desert goat herders living in tents 2000 years ago somehow knew more about the cosmos and biology than modern day scientists


haha religion

i cannot get enough of this subject!! now lemme hit this roach and pass the fuck out!

[bodhi]

btw not sure if you guys have seen these vids,
but here it is... Richard Dawkins Interviews Creationist Wendy Wright http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFjoEgYOgRo

she's such a creepy belly button licking cunt