Critical Defense type ammo worth it? Or will Just catch you a case??

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

I just read a very interesting article on Critical self defense ammo in the Combat Handguns Magazine i got today. The first and main case was described that a guy was being attacked in TX thinking it was a guy that his girlfriend or what not, told him to beat up at his house. A girl told him to go to her Ex's house to beat him up bc she got sad at a remark he said to her at a bar. So the guys went on over to the guys house. He looked thru the peep hole and didnt recognize him. He figured it was his friends people. So he went to the rest room and let his friend open the door. The guy busted it open immediately pounding the guys face in. The guy who went to the bathroom heard the ruckus and went to his room to get a Ruger P95. Opened fire at about 12 feet away. 10 rounds fired, all 10 rounds hit. All 10 rounds over penetrated and went thru the victims body. One went thru, hit the friend that was under him getting pounded in the calf, and went thru and hit him in the foot. Guy ends up dead, Friend did a law suit on his friend's home owners insurance and got about 60k.

To make a long story short, There were about 5 other cases starting off in self defense and ending in law suits. One story was in the LAPD and NYPD at a long distance shoot out. All Calibers used were 9mm, immagine any larger caliber. The Ruger P95 used Power Ball ammo.

The point to the article was to encourage people to use standard JHP for best and safe defense to avoid harming innocent bystanders. The polymer Balls or hollow point inserts usually "OVER PENETRATES" your target. So, Think twice about buying the expensive Critical defense ammo.

All comments welcome. People may have different points of views but i thought i would post it for those who dont have experience with this type of ammo.

[FlipKing]

Very good points, also goes to being sure whats behind(or underneath) your target

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

Very good points, also goes to being sure whats behind(or underneath) your target

Yup, they made that point as well. It was like a 3 page long article on the topic. Just a brief point for IA members.

[FlipKing]

In defense, you'd want to be aware of a bad guy being between you and your family

[Truegiant]

In defense, you'd want to be aware of a bad guy being between you and your family

ding ding ding.. i will post some website links to good articles about this when my comp gets back from the shop.

[FlipKing]

What does the noob win? lol

[EJdm]

ohh now i gotta shoot all my hallow points and get reg bullets...

[ranger250x]

I know this is probably not true, but.... i heard hollow points can be used against you in court. Reason being that hollow points make the crime/self-defence premeditated murder.

dont know where i heard this i just did. it has to be wrong, just though i would throw that out there if anyone knows da truf!

[SiRed94]

Yeah, bullets don't always stop in people. Got to pay attention to where your bullet is going to end up. More people should be informed of over-penetration though. I am sure most people would use common sense to deduce the fact that it could happen, but they probably wouldn't think of it until pointed out. However, they will still probably not think about it after adrenaline takes over and they start firing. This is one of the many reasons people need to practice with their firearms a lot. So that they will become more comfortable with using them. It may relieve some of the stress in an emergency situation, possibly enabling you to think clearly before using it, even if you only have a split second to access the situation.

[r_Senik]

I know this is probably not true, but.... i heard hollow points can be used against you in court. Reason being that hollow points make the crime/self-defence premeditated murder.

dont know where i heard this i just did. it has to be wrong, just though i would throw that out there if anyone knows da truf!

probably, i also heard that if you modified your gun (night sights, custom slides, ect.) that they can use it against you and probably try to make you look like a gun crazy person in court.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

Yeah, bullets don't always stop in people. Got to pay attention to where your bullet is going to end up. More people should be informed of over-penetration though. I am sure most people would use common sense to deduce the fact that it could happen, but they probably wouldn't think of it until pointed out. However, they will still probably not think about it after adrenaline takes over and they start firing. This is one of the many reasons people need to practice with their firearms a lot. So that they will become more comfortable with using them. It may relieve some of the stress in an emergency situation, possibly enabling you to think clearly before using it, even if you only have a split second to access the situation.

Very True! Chances are that if you get into a gun fight, It will more than likely be somewhere there is people around. So people do need to practice with their primary weapon. I seen people buy a gun and ask what type of round will do the most damage. Then they pick up Pow'r Balls or something, just because they think its cool. Some people are stupid.

[Jaimecbr900]

Guys, penetration has more to do with ballistics and physics than it does caliber size.

If someone shoots two people that are "stacked" on top of each other, ie. screwing, fighting, bear hugging, then there is a large likelihood that any round will go into both.

The FBI's penetration threshold, going off memory here folks so don't go crazy, is 13 inches for ammo to be considered "effective". They want this amount of penetration because AT WORST CASE SCENARIO the "perp" will be shot CROSS TORSO, i.e. the widest vital part of the human body, and therefore they would like any ammo used by LEO to be able to penetrate that. Again, very small calibers can penetrate 13 inches and some even beyond. That doesn't automatically mean that they are "man stoppers" or will drop anyone in their tracks. It just means that at X velocity with Y grain bullet, it penetrates 13 inches or so. Again, that's just basic physics and ballistics. You can fire a dart deep enough to penetrate 13 inches, but that doesn't mean it's going to stop your attacker any faster than a .380 bullet that only goes 10 inches.

Stopping power is all about FIRST placement and second ballistics. We can go into a gigantic debate on wound ballistics and stopping power of every caliber, but suffice it to say that little .380 bullet hitting mid torso is more likely to stop someone than a flechette hitting in the same spot. Why? Likely because the .380 bullet will create a larger wound cavity and channel than a flechette will therefore the likelihood of incapacitation is going to be greater. Again, I don't want a ton of debate back and forth about this because this is a very far fetched example for illustration purposes only.

Bottom line is that shooting at a tumbling and rolling mass of people fighting is a BAD IDEA to begin with. Second, Critical Defense ammo or not, the likelihood of over penetration is always there, so pay attention to what's behind what you're shooting at. Finally, shot placement is far more critical than ammo choice. A .22 to the chest will kill you faster than a .50 BMG that misses the target all together. Think about it.

There's an old saying, "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". I'd rather take my chances in court after killing an attacker than my wife becoming a widow because I decided to be coy about someone meaning us harm. I would shoot an RPG in an attacker's mouth if I got the chance and it's all I had.....or try to get him with a bent paper clip if that's all I had.

What I find really comical quite often is brand new gun owners.....total newbs....that worry so much about caliber and ammo. Why? Can you even hit what you're aiming at yet? Then it doesn't matter what you put in your hands to defend yourself with, right? People need to realize that owning a weapon for defense is a very real decision that is not to be taken lightly, so you better know what you're doing if you decide to do it. You can buy a freaking Howitzer and mount it on the roof of the house, but if you don't know how to load it, aim it, fire it......it's as worthless as tits on a hog. Might as well throw rocks at somebody cause you'll get better results.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

What I find really comical quite often is brand new gun owners.....total newbs....that worry so much about caliber and ammo. Why? Can you even hit what you're aiming at yet?

My point exactly! I see people obsessing over .45's that are noobs just because of the power. They probably will gangster shoot it (sideways) and instantly kill someone innocent.

[Danny]

I know this is probably not true, but.... i heard hollow points can be used against you in court. Reason being that hollow points make the crime/self-defence premeditated murder.

dont know where i heard this i just did. it has to be wrong, just though i would throw that out there if anyone knows da truf!

THat would be false. Premeditation has nothing to do with using hollow points. Premeditation simply means you consciously made the decision to kill someone. In Georgia premeditation is instantaneous. For example, in the heat of the moment after walking in catching you wife riding some other dude you decide to kill them both, that's murder. Premeditation was evident the instant you decided to kill them, no matter how short of time period.

There are several defenses for murder, one being self defense.

[Jaimecbr900]

THat would be false. Premeditation has nothing to do with using hollow points. Premeditation simply means you consciously made the decision to kill someone. In Georgia premeditation is instantaneous. For example, in the heat of the moment after walking in catching you wife riding some other dude you decide to kill them both, that's murder. Premeditation was evident the instant you decided to kill them, no matter how short of time period.

There are several defenses for murder, one being self defense.

I agree with you, except for what's highlighted.

I know someone personally that killed his ex after walking in on her and another man, and he got charged (and convicted) of manslaughter and not murder. He served a couple of years and got out. Still walking around today I'd imagine.

But I do agree with you that merely having HP's in your gun doesn't make for premeditation of anything.

[Cool Cat Racing]

Premeditation requires a momentary separation of the incident and the response. In that example if you catch them and then go back to your car and get a gun and walk back in and shoot them that has been considered premeditation due to the separation. Remember there are various levels of murder and malice is just as important as aforethought. If you are intending to protect yourself you don't have malice regardless of aforethought.

[Danny]

I agree with you, except for what's highlighted.

I know someone personally that killed his ex after walking in on her and another man, and he got charged (and convicted) of manslaughter and not murder. He served a couple of years and got out. Still walking around today I'd imagine.

But I do agree with you that merely having HP's in your gun doesn't make for premeditation of anything.

Wow, has to be more to it than that. If not thats one above average scumbag defense lawyer at work. Remember the case name? maybe we can look it up

[Danny]

interesting, provocation is a defense to murder. I assume thats what that guy got off the hook with? Interesting stuff.

[Jaimecbr900]

Wow, has to be more to it than that. If not thats one above average scumbag defense lawyer at work. Remember the case name? maybe we can look it up

Oh, I know this case very well. The guy who did it was my mother-in-laws live-in Fiance when I started dating my wife. I'm not going to mention his name, although I could since he's been convicted and it wouldn't be "here-say" but I'll leave it at that. The way the story was told to me, he walked in on his first wife and shot and killed her. If I'm not mistaken, he plead temporary insanity and obviously it worked somehow. He only served a few years and I know he was convicted of manslaughter and not murder.

The guy was an absolute tool. He was a jerk to the end, even towards me, although I didn't put up with it like the others. He and I almost got in a fist fight the day I moved my wife's mother out over water from the water hose. Bottomline is that he didn't get charged for murder, although he was a major tool.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

wow! he got off lucky. must have been a great lawyer. pretty much, my buddy that is a detective told me, if you have a chance to get away, it is no longer considered self defense. if a guy is beating on you and you reach for your gun and POW! That is self defense. even if you get a clean hit and u have a chance to get out of the struggle, you certainly cannot stand up and shoot him when you have a chance to get away.

[Jaimecbr900]

wow! he got off lucky. must have been a great lawyer. pretty much, my buddy that is a detective told me, if you have a chance to get away, it is no longer considered self defense. if a guy is beating on you and you reach for your gun and POW! That is self defense. even if you get a clean hit and u have a chance to get out of the struggle, you certainly cannot stand up and shoot him when you have a chance to get away.

Not anymore. Remember in Georgia, we no longer have to "retreat" and we can stand our ground.