^^ I Like this guy.
^^ I Like this guy.
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
These questions are a tell tale sign of ignorance. Lets apply logic to the questions.Originally Posted by geoff
I exist. Things around me exist and are tangible. God is not tangible mentally or physically. So, in order to make god tangible I need faith. Faith is the direct opposite of tangibility.
Tangibility vs Faith = God vs Logic
As for the second question. If you did some research you would see there is plenty of overlap between religions. The differences could come from a multitude of reasons but an easy one is cultural development over time.
The problem I have with christianity is you guys pick and choose which bits you believe and practice. It's almost a joke to how hypocritical you (christians) have become.
Penn & Teller Bullshit gives the gist of some of the bullshit in the bible.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=009_1198085630
sounds like you got hope and faith mixed up at one point.
like i said, i didnt mean to offend anyone on this forum. i see all the time people flaming christianity and just so hellbent on disproving something they dont believe. my purpose was just to find out where these guys are coming from. as far as immature, i wouldnt exactly put it that way. i would say more that my faith is developing just as everyone elses takes time to develop. there is no such thing as reaching the pinacle of faith or the top level in Christ. i try to live my life according to His word, i try and spread the gospel as Jesus commanded, i refuse to be quiet about my faith cuz its not Gods' plan. some people will listen and others will not. has been this way for a long time. but i refuse to keep silent just because someone might get offended, Lord knows there are a few thirsty souls out there seeking truth and dont have anyone to point them in the right direction.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
I have been involved in most of the religious discussions on this forum and IMO they don't go off on an unreasonable tangent. For the most part people are pretty good about stating their opinions and backing them up in a mature way. In all honesty, it seems to me like the religious ones are the ones who get offended when questions are posed. It's easy for us to say why we have questions—that's where the tangibility factor comes into play. There isn't really all that much to defend. On the other hand, humans tend to have a hard time when it comes to "abstract" things and it's "your" job to prove your point and back it up with facts that are understandable to people who haven't been "struck" by God and his miracles yet. That is the hard task. Most of the time the discussion goes back to faith and the Bible. It's a vicious cycle. If we ask about the word, don't refer us back to the word in question. It just doesn't make sense.
I have no problem with your stance. In all honesty, I have read the Bible and started on the Torah trying to find something to strike me. It's not that I am not open to any of the possibilities—It just hasn't happened for me....yet.
That is messed up QD, no doubt about it. I'd be ticked off too if I was in your shoes.
The big but in this is that church didn't do those things... the people did. What I find amusing (and not slamming you or anyone here, Atheist or Christian) is that people tend to think that just because a person may go to church or does attend church/temple and calls themselves [fill in the blank], that they are perfect or any better than anybody else or closer to "perfection"... people inside and outside the church think this. This is the great lie that has been spread across the country and sown into our culture.
The truth is that church is made of imperfect people. People in an imperfect world doing imperfect things in our imperfect lives. Just because people attend, worship, or do whatever, does not make them any better or worse than the next. There is no promise (at least in Christianity) of a problem-free life nor a promise that things will always go your way. The promise made by God (biblically speaking) is the promise of peace (John 16:33) and the promise that God is always working for you... not against you (Matthew 1, not necessarily the birth of Jesus... but more of the humanity of Joseph and the circumstances surrounding him in all this... can elaborate if need be...)
Absolutely don't stay quiet but don't be like Peter. Your heart and passions are in the right place but you are like Peter who would react to their emotions and feelings but fail to seize the true nature of what his teacher was trying to get through to them.
Calm your spirit and wait upon the Lord. Wait and listen for his voice of the Holy Spirit, and then be obedient when he calls upon you. As human beings, this is our true act of service, love, and obedience to God. Think of the calling when Jesus first met with Peter... what was Peter doing? Even in that instance, Jesus told him to cast his net on the other side... so should you as well if you're not catching anything...
I understand exactly what you're saying.
But I have to respond on this line alone. You're right in that doesn't make them better. The problem is, though, that these people THINK they are because they go to church. That's why they look down their noses at people like me. We know they aren't any better, but they don't. Later, QD.
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I can totally agree with this. You (not you specifically, but people in general) shouldn't be judged by Christians - Technically they should serve you no matter your belief.
another interesting thread.
the only thing you have to remember is that the Christian faith openly says that we cannot live up to the standard which is held before us. This to the person on the outside looking in is always where people like to play the gotcha game. When the truth of the Christian faith is that we all come from a place of where we have struggled and wrestled with our short comings and we will continue to do so.
In many cases, the legalism that some believers display is another one of these problems. Unfortunately, many of us still act like the Christian faith is about us living our lives to a certain standard and it isn't. It is however about us not being able to live our lives to the standard that is laid out before us and being in desperate need of grace. I often wonder if that is a place where the believer and the non-believer can start to agree? The place that says, no matter the standard I set for myself or the standard that God has set for me, I am going to need grace because I cannot live up to that standard.
"Their [the new atheists] treatment of the religious viewpoint is pathetic to the point of non-being. Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion would fail any introductory philosophy or religion course. Proudly he criticizes that whereof he knows nothing... I am indignant at the poor quality of the argumentation in Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, and all of the others in that group."
~Michael Ruse, atheist & author and philosopher of biology at Florida State University
full article
People can live up to the standard that they set for themselves quite easily. Go to a trailer park and have a look around. A lot of those people want no more than what they have. The same can said for CEOs of business. Living to a standard that you set and continually change for yourself is very powerful - bc you can see progress and can even "arrive" if you set your mark low enuff. You don't need "grace" from an invisible character to do so. You don't need words from another "man" (bible) to do so either.
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
i have heard the calling my friend. and my net is not empty. some " christians " dont realize the seriousness of the word. Jesus is coming back for a people called by His name, you know the eternity in store for non believers. think about this for a second. every day thousands if not more people die. how many of those would you say are truly Gods' children? i have a burden to tell someone about what God is doing and the plan of salvation. you can call me emotional or whatever you want, thats not going to hinder me from doing what Christ said to spread the gospel to every creature.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
According to my understanding, wouldn't every one of those people be God's children? Later, QD.
FOR MORE INFO, CLICK THE PIC!!!
we are all Gods' children in the sense that He is our creator ( Father ) BUT, those that accept Christ and live according to His Word are His people called by His name.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
this is what i think.
Last edited by SPOOLIN; 12-10-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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You're going to have to elaborate. As I see it I am not confused.
If you want me to take what you have to say seriously don't drop vague one liners and bail on the thread.
hope (hp)
v. hoped, hop·ing, hopes
v.intr.
1. To wish for something with expectation of its fulfillment.
2. Archaic To have confidence; trust.
v.tr.
1. To look forward to with confidence or expectation: We hope that our children will be successful.
2. To expect and desire. See Synonyms at expect.
n.
1. A wish or desire accompanied by confident expectation of its fulfillment.
2. Something that is hoped for or desired: Success is our hope.
3. One that is a source of or reason for hope: the team's only hope for victory.
4. often Hope Christianity The theological virtue defined as the desire and search for a future good, difficult but not impossible to attain with God's help.
5. Archaic Trust; confidence.
Idiom:
hope against hope
To hope with little reason or justification.
faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Idiom:
in faith
Indeed; truly.
I was never waiting in earnest for something. I made a decision because it is not within me to blindly follow.
In simple,
Hope - Going on what God is going to do for you.
Faith - It's already been done and you have to go out and achieve it (if its a goal your chasing) or conquer it(if difficulty has arose in your path).
I.E. If you want to be a pro ball player - you hope one day you make it. You think God is going to give it to your if you work hard enough.
Example of going on Faith - You are already a pro ball player - you just have to go out and work for it.
People often get this mixed up and get mad when something comes up in life - I am not directly attacking you or asking you to rethink things, I just simply mentioned it appeared to be a confusion. If this is not true for you, cool.
No way, man. There is no HOPE in religion. You don't hope you go to heaven. You have faith that you will. Faith is not anything that has already been done. At least not factually. Faith is what you call the belief someone has in the Bible, God and religion. Acting on faith is you going for your goals and believing that God is there with you every step of the way. Later, QD.
FOR MORE INFO, CLICK THE PIC!!!
Thats essentially what I am saying - people seem to get those mixed up. By mixed up - I mean replacing one with the other.
I'm not saying that it is but study the life of Peter and you'll understand where I'm coming from.
And believe me, I understand completely where you're coming from... I was once in your shoes and in my heart still am; however, I've matured in my faith to understand that God's plan is much bigger than I'll ever begin to fathom and ever imagine. That my work, no matter how great or small, is ever pleasing and accepting to God but never good enough of his glory. For his is his alone, there is nothing greater.
The danger becomes that as you spread the word, the soils on which it lands on differ depending on who hears it. For those with ears let them hear... the soils will differ but the quality of the seed is the same. Be careful of how you tend the garden, for as you spread the seed, you'll need to nourish it with food and water so it grows. You'll see your harvest more abundant as you grow in your faith maturity.
Like I said and will continue to say, your heart and passions are in the right place... now you just need to mature and seek wisdom.
thankyou. i got a couple guys on here that wanna meet up soon. we should do a bible study and i would like to have you on board. God bless
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
[quote=geoff;38568957]you wouldnt stand idly by while a man put a gun to his head and shot himself would you?[quote]
That depends. Is he trying to get a useful conversation out of a topic that has been beaten to death for decades and will never reach closure? In that case, luck is not on his side.
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INSIGHTFUL DIALOGUE ANALYSIS: Actually, Hector, that is not what we call valet parking. Valet parking is where someone parks your car for you. You just pulled your car up to the front of the store and got out. We just call that parking.
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I MAKE THESE
Of course. It doesn't matter how good or moral you are, just that you believe.
The underwear gnomes in my dresser just created the universe 5 minutes ago and gave us all memories. Can you prove me wrong?
Pascal's wager is fundamentally flawed on so many levels. First of all it's a false dichotomy, it ignores all other religions and all other hells to which you could be subjugated for choosing the wrong god. It also makes the claim that belief and worship cost nothing, which isn't true. There are also a couple of underlying assumptions...like that belief is subject to the will, in which case you choose to believe as an insurance policy, and that this god is credulous enough to buy into it.to add to the op thread i am going to say this.
to not believe VS to believe in a higher power such as (GOD)
why i believe in God... why not? I would rather believe that i have a better place to go when i die other than no where.I mean i can't really understand how people don't get it u don't want to believe in nothing thats fine live the rest of your life thinking when u die thats itso what if i believe in god i would like to think that if i was wrong and god does not exist then whoopi doo i loss nothing. BUT!!!! lets say i die and next thing i no here is another world that i have read about in the bible and all this is true.then it was worth every minute i spent learning. as for the people with no beliefs sad sad day...
There are two types of faith, testable and non-testable.
All theists/atheists require testable faith. We use it every day to walk, drive, work, perform any activity.
Non-testable faith can only be applied to religions that have a divine supernatural entity.
We all have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that faith is based on evidence rather than a lack of evidence like religious faith. Faith that your plane will arrive safely is based on evidence that there is a very low likelyhood of a crash. This is testable.
Probably the same as your reasoning for not believing in leprechauns.
1. I'm fairly certain we have free will. We don't control some aspects of our lives, but that doesn't mean it's controlled by a cosmic universe creator. I have seen nothing in my life to which I needed to attribute to some supernatural cause.
2. There are plenty of worldly consequences for every action.
The burden of proof lies with those making the claim. You don't have the facts to disprove any other deities, by your own logic that puts the Judeo-Christian god on the same level as any other god as far as provability.
Nothing is known about what exists outside of spacetime. It's the old god of the gaps argument. We don't have an explanation for a cause so therefor it's god. Creation itself is a causal activity. Causality is contigent upon time. How does a timeless being do causal things?
I can't question your personal experience, but I hope you can see how your experience isn't valid evidence for another person.
He has answered all your prayers? If that's true, please pray to end world hunger. I have a feeling it's just confirmation bias, but we'll see.
People who claim to know god isn't real are just as fundamentalist as religious people who claim to know god is real. It's a very closed minded way of thinking as neither can be known since such claims are not falsifiable.
God isn't the only possible explanation. You really think god used his infinite gas hack so you wouldn't be stranded but won't cure AIDS?Well i tell you this thread is starting to turnout mature again1 other thing is i have to believe in god because i was raised around a dad that trusted him to the max and did things that would make a no since to a person that doe's not no him in a personal way.I will give u the reasons why i no he is real.
I was around 8yr old when we was on a church trip back from mexico we had given all our money away to the kids pretty much and had just a few $ left.at the time i was like wow! u got to be kidding me this church stuff is going to get us stranded out here in the middle of no where lost.It was about 4-5 car's all travel together we have enough $ to get to the alabama line by the time we pulled up on (E) for the last fill up the pastor filled every 1 else up with the little money he had and then said lets see if god wil work for us. He pulled out duck tape from my dads old van"which was our work van also" he put tape over the empty gas hand and prayed then drove from the alabama line to out side athens ga on (E) ran out of gas as he was turning in to his house. U can say what ever you like about luck are whatever,But from that moment on i think my belief in god growed because luck would not have ever got him that far on (E) about 121miles
Newsflash: yes, He did cure AIDS.
"Natural immunity to HIV/AIDS was discovered in some Nairobi sex workers by UM researchers in the 1980s and is thought to be one of the most promising leads for the development of a safe and effective vaccine to prevent HIV, but its rarity has made it difficult to establish a critical mass of data from which meaningful conclusions can be drawn."
http://umanitoba.ca/news/blogs/blog/...ty-to-hivaids/
Now whether or not it will be actually pursued by those in charge of making such decisions to develop new medicines is debatable. As with everything in todays world, money is king. They make more money using the cocktails of drugs needed to enhance the immune system than they would if they actually cured the disease.
To the OP (geoff), it's always refreshing to see someone "on fire" like you. Keep your chin up, and keep up the Good Work bro - i'm praying for your success.
-jonathan
[/URL]
Jesus Christ is my Savior
Good thread. I believe that God cant be doubted in my mind and soul. The very fact that we are living is evidence to me. Science is a great tool but it cant prove God exists, nor expel the existence. For example: A very close friend of my fiance had a grandmother who recently was told she wouldnt live for her next chemotherapy. It seemed so true bc she couldnt talk, walk, or much of anything else at all. Her last scans and other tests showed that the cancer had spreaded and her body was to weak to fight any longer. Then recently at the families church they prayed that she wouldnt suffer no longer and that she be blessed by entering the Kingdom of Heaven. Everyone accepted that she was on her deathbed. Then she began to get better until she was talking then walking and then back to normal. She felt good for the first time in a long time. Went to her doctors and tests were done and more scans. NO MORE CANCER!!! No science can explain that! That doesnt just happen by chance, that is the work of God.
Selfish.
Guess what - I don't pray, I make 6 figures a year. Is the God that I don't believe in showing me favor? Tell me about the things that you pray for that you DON'T get --- tell me about those. What about the MILLIONS of people that God is NOT good to. MILLIONS of devout followers who DIDN'T make it through their next cancer treatment. The notion that "well, God is good to ME and that's all that matters" is a CROCK. There are MORE people that She is NOT good too - explain that. The simple fact is that God (if She exists) is NOT good to a lot of the people a lot of the time. So you prayed for a job and you got job offers --- "God" MUST be good right? Well isn't that some selfish shit right there if I ever heard it. There are ALSO people who had a good job and just MAGICALLY lost it, became homeless, cracked out, and died. There are ALSO kids getting pimped and raped in alleys asking for invisible help from "God" that never arrives. "God" is SOO good - let me tell you.
Look sir... in life you don't always get what you pray for, you don't always get what you deserve... you get what you get... and that's whether you believe in God or not.
So you say God speaks to you? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? Do you REALLY think that a God capable of creating all the we see and all that we know thinks YOU are THAT special that She is going to take time out of her day to speak to you? LOL. Don't forget --- She also is going to take time out of Her existence to speak to the MILLIONS of other followers too? Interesting. Bill Gates can't take time to speak to a Microsoft help-desk worker in Podunk Kansas, but God has time to speak to you and a million and one other "believers". I find that interesting. You think that every bible-thumper has been created SOOOO uniquely that you have the "stuff" required to 'hear' from such a supernatural being? What SUPERNATURAL antenna or receptive device are you created with that allows such communication w/ this being?? I mean REALLY think about it... if a God that powerful "spoke" to you your head would probably fucking explode.
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
She? Love it.
I will start off by saying that I am not a Christian but am learning more about it and opening up to it in a way.
I know exactly what you mean. I have been in pretty bad situations myself and seen other people go through shit they should have never had to go through. Since this thread was posted in a Christian stance, then I will go in that notion. The Bible does not say that Believers will turn out just fine. Fact is we exist with free will and the only limitations we have are what others set for us and what we set for ourselves. Fortunately and unfortunately other peoples decisions affect our lives. You being successful has nothing to do with God. It doesn't matter to him/her(I don't care what sex, bc I don't think God has one)that you make 6 figures a year. You landed in that pretty good position bc you worked for it and others helped you along the way. You don't need God to do good or have morals. That within itself is something humans have to choose for themselves. To me God isn't God if he/she fits in our heads.
I have lived a pretty shitty life as a kid, then eventually a pretty good one where I was spoiled with money and whatever else I wanted. And then my father decided to be a fucking dumbass and mess around with CRACK. That poor decision sadly affected my families lives pretty badly. He went from making $23 an hour to nothing. We lost our home, land, and everything my parents worked hard for in a matter of 2 years. Eventually my dad went to jail and my mother became the sole provider. She had to feed three kids on just over minimum wage. We only had one Totinos pizza a day split between my 2 brothers and I. Moved out of a 2 story house built just for us into the shittiest trailer park imaginable. Then eventually she couldnt even afford that bc she had to feed us. Then she got into a car accident which left her disabled but yet she persevered and tried to keep her job which later let her go. Left with no income we were kicked out and then lived out of a car for half a year.
Things eventually got better. Fact is we and other choose what happens in our lives. Anything else unexplainable is left up to God imo. I dont understand it and wont until the day I die. I believe in a higher being and thats it. All I can do in this lifetime is help others and myself. I just wanna chill and learn everything I can about this world, and cars too! lol
i will be praying for you and your family 5speed. you seem like someone that is searching for something. if you have any questions about faith you can pm me any time bro.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
I like how you only responded to one half of a sentence in a way that had nothing to do with the point. You're also wrong. Until an effective vaccine is developed and administered to the infected, HIV/AIDS has not been cured.
Edit: ...And even if/when AIDS is cured, what reason would one have to believe that it's the work of god(s) and not man?
Last edited by _Christian_; 12-26-2009 at 11:01 PM.
Wouldn't natural immunity be a force of evolution working here? Just like when brown/black bears started living in the polar regions their coats would change to a white/lighter shade to blend in with surroundings giving the bears a better chance of living, survival of the fittest. How are the workers evolving, they are resistant to the AIDS/HIV virus and giving these workers a better chance to survive in the area.
1999 Corolla CE & 1988 Pontiac Fiero
you dont see how a natural immunity that has never been known to suddenly develop not be a work of God?
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
So a work of god in your eyes, is him creating down syndrome children and children with autism when they first started appearing?
1999 Corolla CE & 1988 Pontiac Fiero
So you're saying god believes in evolution, but Christian's as a whole do not?
I believe in creationism in but also along with evolution. I think things just eventually work out so that we may suit our environment.
i believe that evolution could be the explanation of how God works. i think were christians have a hard time with this is where some evolutionist believe life originated.
riding for God crew member #1
IA Domestic Alliance
Well in my opinion the whole big bang theory just doesn't make sense
If a watchmaker takes a bunch of parts and puts them in a box and burns
them or explodes them they don't just make a watch do they???
So how could things colliding and combusting create a planet that just so
happens to be habitable by humans?
Another Science vs God debate going to insue shortly.... I can tell!
Science is a gift from God. All evidence and facts is not without a leap of faith further down the line. Science is facts plus faith. The Bible is facts plus faith. Whereby all the facts may point to some thing but then a "leap of faith" or "big bang" or "the missing link" to come to a conclusion later on (e.g. global warming).
One thing is certain for me however: All things point right back to it's creator.
And this is what sucks. The FACT that we don't know what that creator is. Later, QD.
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