There are SO MANY MORONS posting in this section!

[soul]

read it, worth it


i have a copy if neone wants to borrow it

[BABY J]

out of all questions i have ever wondered, that one question was the only one i asked. ever since then i just learned to take it how it is, and i'll find out my answers when i leave this earth. cause really, i don't think a pastor could give me the answers i'm looking for that make sense.

Are you an astronaut? If not - you're never leaving this Earth.

[BABY J]

... I see lots of people posting the bashing the God who "sits with his arms folded and does not get involved, or the made to burn concept" but I think even from a non believer stand point it is inaccurate to come to that conclusion if you look at the totality of the Bible.

"Totality of the bible"? LMFAO!!! Are you serious? There are theists who have spent 50 - 60 - 70 and 80 years "figuring" out the bible... and they have but put a DENT in it... bc it's written in a circlular fashion BY DESIGN to keep you hunched over your kitchen table w/ a NIV, King James Version, West Side Amplified Holy Crap Version, a dictionary, thesaurus, the internet, some dude name bubba, 2 D batteries, a gem-clip, a pack of Twizzlers and your grandma to break down 1 fucking paragraph which in itself was even improperly translated. LOL. I find it quite odd that of all people, "YOU" have the ability to answer a question about homosexuality b/c you understand the "totality of the bible." Holy shit, you're the 1st... some1 get this guy a glass of water so he can walk on it.

I believe that the Bible is completely about the redemption of men. I believe it starts where it starts because it is not intended to explain the how's of creation and evolution and all those things that people get caught on. and it is the fault of many of us Christian's that we try to turn the Bible into what it is not intended for. I believe that people ask the wrong questions of the Bible, which are illogical to ask. For instance, if you buy an xbox or playstation you would not expect the manual to have the schematics and diagrams for wiring and all its internal electrical components and drives because Microsoft and Sony don't give that information to you. You would only expect to be provide with information on how to set it up and basic system info. We often ask the Bible to tell us these types of specific things and it does not. It doesn't tell us the age of the earth or whether or not dinosaurs where around, etc etc.

THIS is where you fail (again). The bible can be SOO specific about the EXACT amount one should give for tithes - not 9%, not 11 - but 10!! It can tell you the EXACTING measurements for the Ark... but now it's conveniently not a book of exacting specifications. You people kill me.

What should further let you know that you fail is that you have to say "your view" when you are talking about a book that should have a VERY much defined "stance". For you to base your life on such a novel, why do NO TWO believers interpret it the same? I actually don't even want an answer... but you'd think that THE WORD OF GOD would be exacting and unwaivering, infallable. I mean... we've had "a few years" to iron out the wrinkles ya know.

What I am saying is that in God's eyes it only takes disobedience. That could be in the form of taking from a forbidden tree or murder or sexual sin, or lying, etc etc. But it never stops there for the sinner, because the work that God does is not complete until Christ is crucified.

Really? So why do verses like this exist? Leviticus 20:13 - this tells me that homosexual activity is held to a higher standard of WRONG than simple "lying" (as u stated above). There are many better examples of what should happen to a man who lays w/ another man this as well but I am sleepy... LOL. But since you have the "totality of the bible" figured out I'm sure you know those scriptures. ALREADY, listening to you will have some guy who is dealing w/ homsexuality thinking "this isn't that bad --- sin is sin" when in face even the BIBLE disagrees w/ you. Congrats on having some1 else's blood on YOUR hands. To all of you wanna be soul-winners out there remeber this. If you are not SURGICAL w/ this biblical/religious shit then it's prob best not to say ANYTHING AT ALL lest you inadvertantly send some1 to hell on your watch.

...No, if believers could provide answers to everything I would be much more concerned at the fact that the God we believe in, who is most high and powerful, is so easily defined by us. he is not, and nobody, the christian, the atheist, the muslim, should expect him to be easily defined or his ways easily understood.

You do this all the time. You say He speaks to you -- this ALL KNOWING OMNIPOTENT being "speaks" to you? WOW! You really think that you and all other believers have the antenna and other receptive media required to communicate w/ such a being? If there was a God and he was as Billy-Bad-Ass as you say 1) why would he talk to YOU (lol)... and 2) Your fucking head would explode even if tried to whisper. Who do you think YOU are that He would waste time speaking to you? You got THAT much shit figured out about this rock that you can "hear" God? Amazing. Can you speak to a horse using it's language? What about a pig? What about a dolphin? Then what makes you think you can communicate w/ the supernatural... and if you can, what makes you think it'd want to communicate w/ YOU?

I actually think that if there is a higher being (i really don't give a fuck - I'm here, THAT is what is real to me) he dropped us off here and left the rest up to us and we are failing miserably. PERIOD. He is NOT speaking to any1. He is NOT "guiding" any1. He is not making moves that impact your measly little life just b/c you bow down on by your bed every night. Swing and a miss.

[Tracy]

whoa. We need to have some drunk conversations about God sometime, J.

[sport_122]

"Totality of the bible"? LMFAO!!! Are you serious? There are theists who have spent 50 - 60 - 70 and 80 years "figuring" out the bible... and they have but put a DENT in it... bc it's written in a circlular fashion BY DESIGN to keep you hunched over your kitchen table w/ a NIV, King James Version, West Side Amplified Holy Crap Version, a dictionary, thesaurus, the internet, some dude name bubba, 2 D batteries, a gem-clip, a pack of Twizzlers and your grandma to break down 1 fucking paragraph which in itself was even improperly translated. LOL. I find it quite odd that of all people, "YOU" have the ability to answer a question about homosexuality b/c you understand the "totality of the bible." Holy shit, you're the 1st... some1 get this guy a glass of water so he can walk on it.



THIS is where you fail (again). The bible can be SOO specific about the EXACT amount one should give for tithes - not 9%, not 11 - but 10!! It can tell you the EXACTING measurements for the Ark... but now it's conveniently not a book of exacting specifications. You people kill me.

What should further let you know that you fail is that you have to say "your view" when you are talking about a book that should have a VERY much defined "stance". For you to base your life on such a novel, why do NO TWO believers interpret it the same? I actually don't even want an answer... but you'd think that THE WORD OF GOD would be exacting and unwaivering, infallable. I mean... we've had "a few years" to iron out the wrinkles ya know.



Really? So why do verses like this exist? Leviticus 20:13 - this tells me that homosexual activity is held to a higher standard of WRONG than simple "lying" (as u stated above). There are many better examples of what should happen to a man who lays w/ another man this as well but I am sleepy... LOL. But since you have the "totality of the bible" figured out I'm sure you know those scriptures. ALREADY, listening to you will have some guy who is dealing w/ homsexuality thinking "this isn't that bad --- sin is sin" when in face even the BIBLE disagrees w/ you. Congrats on having some1 else's blood on YOUR hands. To all of you wanna be soul-winners out there remeber this. If you are not SURGICAL w/ this biblical/religious shit then it's prob best not to say ANYTHING AT ALL lest you inadvertantly send some1 to hell on your watch.



You do this all the time. You say He speaks to you -- this ALL KNOWING OMNIPOTENT being "speaks" to you? WOW! You really think that you and all other believers have the antenna and other receptive media required to communicate w/ such a being? If there was a God and he was as Billy-Bad-Ass as you say 1) why would he talk to YOU (lol)... and 2) Your fucking head would explode even if tried to whisper. Who do you think YOU are that He would waste time speaking to you? You got THAT much shit figured out about this rock that you can "hear" God? Amazing. Can you speak to a horse using it's language? What about a pig? What about a dolphin? Then what makes you think you can communicate w/ the supernatural... and if you can, what makes you think it'd want to communicate w/ YOU?

I actually think that if there is a higher being (i really don't give a fuck - I'm here, THAT is what is real to me) he dropped us off here and left the rest up to us and we are failing miserably. PERIOD. He is NOT speaking to any1. He is NOT "guiding" any1. He is not making moves that impact your measly little life just b/c you bow down on by your bed every night. Swing and a miss.

way to continue to write a bunch of crap that is not in context with the post of which you replied. You commented on things that I said that I DIDN'T say...Great way to demonstrate intelligence. You are amazing!!!

BTW...Ever since you failed to add any substance or reason to any of your posts (except the UFO one), I really can't take anything you say seriously because I don't think you are a legit debater, but you are a mocker and scoffer. You are not Dawkins, you are a hitchens, lacking good solid reason for your ideas, save for the emotional disagreements tout, you reduce yourself to elementary school yard ridicule.

You need to read my post and stop trying to read INTO my posts. You do not understand my worldview therefor you cannot comprehend and make reasonable deductions on anything I say. But you have given me your worldview in a previous post of which you told me that everything revolves around you and preservation of you. (without even a consideration to your own family, yet you would suggest that your worldview makes for a better world...)
You are again on of those types of people who claim logic and reason, and even have the incredible ability to tell me that "my view" is wrong and that to have to state things in "my view" is a joke and yet you turn around and tell us what "you think".

so do you or do you not think based on "your view"? Because you have often said that you are only concerned about yourself and nothing else matters remember "j'son works for what j'son wants, when j'son wants it" remember that? You said it so I would assume that much like my post did say, I can only attempt to add understanding to a concern based on MY UNDERSTANDING of the way things are based on my worldview which is founded on a compilation of evidence.

But you according to you, you ONLY SUBSCRIBE TO THE IDEAS OF J'SON. Which means all theories of human interaction call you a fool as who you are is a direct product of the products of your experiences. But it doesn't matter to you because you only believe in J'son... and you don't care, yet you care enough to try to "educate, if that is what you think you are doing, people based on no view because having "your view" is considered a joke.

Yup I fail, but I would rather fail being who I am with a logical reason to my thoughts. than to be completely fake with the emotional tendency to live only to stroke my own ego. If my existence and the existence of my way of thinking is sad then yours is an abomination to all things.

I await another "well thought out" comic sketch from you...you make me laugh and cry like a good movie. If I could I would sell tickets and cut you in.

[BABY J]

Here are a few questions that you missed - make sure you answer them for yourself.

1) The bible can be SOO specific about the EXACT amount one should give for tithes - not 9%, not 11 - but 10!! It can tell you the EXACTING measurements for the Ark... but now it's conveniently not a book of exacting specifications?? EXPLAIN this to me... this is your chance to soulwin and draw me nearer to Thee.

2) So why do verses like this exist? Leviticus 20:13 - this tells me that homosexual activity is held to a higher standard of WRONG than simple "lying" (as u stated above). Yet YOU say "sin is sin" -- elaborate. Is sin sin? Or are there levels... (tread softly here b/c i WILL put you on blast if you miss this one... this is Christianty 101.

3) So does God speak to you or does he not? B/c if he DOES then you can ask him to answer those questions. If he DOESN'T, then where did you get the "wealth of knowledge" that you possess?

Ever since you failed to add any substance or reason to any of your posts (except the UFO one), I really can't take anything you say seriously because I don't think you are a legit debater, but you are a mocker and scoffer. You are not Dawkins, you are a hitchens, lacking good solid reason for your ideas,

Hitchens? No - try J'son. I don't need an external source to define who I am -- how I act, and scare me into doing things that are "common sense" just so I can go to heave. Struck a nerve yet?? Show me your substance. You have NONE yet you command that of me. Pot? Kettle?? And I'm supposed to take YOU seriously when you base your LIFE on a book that has more questions than answers??

You do not understand my worldview therefor you cannot comprehend and make reasonable deductions on anything I say.

That's b/c you don't undertand your worldview either. You tell a man that "sin is sin" when I can write a NOVEL on how MANY scriptures will disagree with you.

I can only attempt to add understanding to a concern based on MY UNDERSTANDING of the way things are based on my worldview which is founded on a compilation of evidence.

So you are saying that YOUR understanding supersedes the understanding of what people charged w/ leading people spiritually have?? You are telling me that "The Word" is so malleable that you can come up w/ "your own" understanding and live, eat and swear by that?? Well shit --- FREE UNDERSTANDINGS FOR EVERY1 -- GET 'EM WHILE THEY'RE HOT!!! "I'm sorry judge... MY UNDERSTANDING of the law was that murder is okay if you REAAALLLY had a bad day and the other person deserved it." "I'm sorry officer... my understanding that the speed limit was only if there were other cars around - since i285 was empty I figured 96mph was okay." The WORD should be THE WORD?? Not subject to "your raggedy ass understanding of it". Who are you that YOUR understanding is even worth sharing w/ some1 when they can be condemned to hell if you're wrong?? How does this not make sense to you?? You can't tell me that He can feed 5,000 w/ 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread and have the remaining be 7 baskets full (el oh el)... yet tell me that His word is so poorly written that each and every believer can have "their own" understanding of it. Just show me that you're not an idiot and you understand that.

But you according to you, you ONLY SUBSCRIBE TO THE IDEAS OF J'SON. Which means all theories of human interaction call you a fool as who you are is a direct product of the products of your experiences.

So we are products of our environment?? Okay -- so in that case I know business owner millionaires that should be gangbangers in jail. We are products of our environment... food for thought: If you were born and raised in Iran there is a 99% chance that you would be Muslim - hell, maybe even a radical. And you would fly that flag jUST as high and long as you fly this one. Am I correct? So by NO FAULT of their own --- all of the non-Christian types get the express train to hell for being born in the wrong country. Sweet.

I await another "well thought out" comic sketch from you...you make me laugh and cry like a good movie. If I could I would sell tickets and cut you in.

You know why I am laughing at you? B/c you make it easy... not ONCE have you made it where I need to roll up my sleeves, turn off Baby J and turn on J'son - NOT ONCE. I assure you -- you don't want that b/c make NO mistake about it, Reverand Harold Johnson (my grandad) and his colleagues are no match for me and neither are you. Not by a long shot. I mirror what I get... and so far I've seen nothing in you that makes me want to start thinking "for real". I'm a funny guy - so you'll have to forgive me if my personality shines through when I post, I like to keep things light sir. LOL. But I'm SURE that you can pull the meat out of my comments and address those. We should hang out sometime... I know some awesome churches that we can drive by and wave at.

[BABY J]

I can only attempt to add understanding to a concern based on MY UNDERSTANDING of the way things are based on my worldview which is founded on a compilation of evidence.

Post this evidence please. I'd like to take a look at it.

[One_Bad_SHO]

Walk blindly to the light and reach out for his hand
Don't ask any questions and don't try to understand
Open up your mind and then open up your heart
And you will see that you and me aren't very far apart

'Cause I believe that love is the answer
I believe that love will find the way

Violence is spread world wide and there are families on the street
And we sell drugs to children now oh why can't we just see
That all we do is eliminate our future with the things we do today
Money is our incentive now so that makes it okay

But I believe that love is the answer
I believe that love will find the way
I believe that love is the answer
I believe that love will find the way

I've been seeing Tracy now for a little over a year
She said she's never been so happy but Tracy lives in fear
That one day daddy's gonna find out she's in love
With a white boy from the streets
Oh how he would lose it then but she's still here with me
'Cause she believes that love will see it through
And one day he'll understand
And he'll see me as a person not just a white man

'Cause I believe that love is the answer
I believe that love will find the way
I believe I believe I believe I believe that love is the answer
I believe that love will find the way
Love will find the way
Love will find the way
Love will find the way
Please love find the way
Please love find the way

[sport_122]

Post this evidence please. I'd like to take a look at it.

Now we get down to it. You be prepared to bring your evidence to the table as well as mine is presented below

1) The bible can be SOO specific about the EXACT amount one should give for tithes - not 9%, not 11 - but 10!! It can tell you the EXACTING measurements for the Ark... but now it's conveniently not a book of exacting specifications?? EXPLAIN this to me... this is your chance to soulwin and draw me nearer to Thee.

The context of exact measurements in scripture does not denote a complete line by line guide for life to be found there in. Go back to my mentioning of the xbox 360 manual. In that manual, if I can quote you that it has a specific power supply and that the wireless controller works on a specific frequency, I have still not provided you with the totality of information in existence on the Xbox.

The idea that you say tithe could mean anything other than 10 is a foolish argument in and of itself. Tithing is a 10th because the very definition of tithe is tenth. that is why tithing is not 9 or 11 because it means 10th. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tithe
are you suggesting that when the bible says to give a tithe that it could possible mean anything else? No, that is why it is specific, because the word has a specific meaning.

2) So why do verses like this exist? Leviticus 20:13 - this tells me that homosexual activity is held to a higher standard of WRONG than simple "lying" (as u stated above). Yet YOU say "sin is sin" -- elaborate. Is sin sin? Or are there levels... (tread softly here b/c i WILL put you on blast if you miss this one... this is Christianty 101.

Context of your statement is not correct. you are trying to mix the weight of wrong doing in the eyes of man as if God demonstrates that we are equivalents. He does not.

First off in Lev, you have failed to mention that the book is about the relationship of men to other men as they serve God together. God is giving them instruction on how they should act justly according to one another not a guide on how he views them and their actions.

http://www.votbg.org/jnd/jnd-lev.htm

So back up and look at the question posed to the pastor by the previous poster. He asked "if being gay was a sin and was not given a good understanding of why believers think that people would be condemned to hell for it if God creates us how we are."

so in that context the question arises, is asking for an answer that comes from what we know of God or what we know of men? Obviously if its about being sent to hell I can only draw the conclusion that he is asking about God because Christians do not believe that they send people to hell.

so when answering we need to define sin. basically its wrong doing against the laws of God.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/what-is-sin.htm
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sin
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-18-2.htm
http://richleonardi.blogspot.com/200...n-another.html

with this definition their is no need to validate a level of sin and god does not do that, he has men do it because we must serve justice in our own world, but based on his law, sin (wrong doing), no matter how little or big men think it is, it is still under the category of wrong doing. But in his eyes, the very fact that you have committed any sin is worthy of condemnation. You are trying to impose the rules that men use to govern themselves on the character and nature of God. That will never make sense because men cannot achieve to justify themselves by God's law.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-18-2.htm
http://richleonardi.blogspot.com/200...n-another.html

simpler statement: If you break a law you have committed sin. It doesn't matter if you murdered or raped, or lied you still committed sin. God lays his punishment for sin (all acts encompassed within) as death. So just as one person lied, they sinned, and one person has a sexual sin, they still sinned. You are trying to add an adjective to the sin to change what it is. That doesn't work.

A slow car, fast car, little car, big car, red car, boosted car, rusted car, a convertible car or a toyota supra...which of these is not a car? The word car is the object of the conversation, where as sin was the topic of the other conversation. If you were punished for driving a car, which of these could you drive and NOT be considered guilty?

3) So does God speak to you or does he not? B/c if he DOES then you can ask him to answer those questions. If he DOESN'T, then where did you get the "wealth of knowledge" that you possess?

haha, funny question. This was not something I said, you brought it up on your own but I will answer it anyway. I believe that the knowledge that all men have are revelations of an eternal God who we are slowly learning to try to understand. I believe that God gave us science, reason, logic, the Bible, and the ability to compile these things to try to understand parts of his character. I believe that without the use of all of these things your beliefs are only left to you, and with the use of any of these things we are in some way suscribing to the method that God has chosen to reveal himself to us.

Why do i believe this. because I believe knowledge to be eternal. I believe that even before men walked on this earth all the things that were there to be known were already true. This means to me that knowledge in and of itself had no beginning. light waves, sound waves, earth quakes, things in the cosmos are all things that predate understanding and exist in some sort of spectrum waiting for men to learn to understand or discover it for themselves...a few reasources to look at that sum up some things.

I also have a pretty nice collection of books at home.
http://people.uncw.edu/schmidt/302/S.../Knowledge.htm
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...s-of-knowledge
http://www.trialectics.com/Philosoph...dialectics.htm
http://www.fallacydetective.com/arti...ns-about-logic

Hitchens? No - try J'son. I don't need an external source to define who I am -- how I act, and scare me into doing things that are "common sense" just so I can go to heave. Struck a nerve yet?? Show me your substance. You have NONE yet you command that of me. Pot? Kettle?? And I'm supposed to take YOU seriously when you base your LIFE on a book that has more questions than answers??

ya know, Hitchens makes this argument also. but my question is with your way of thinking and living, What gives you the right to ask evidence or substance of me? What gives you the desire to want to know it if you don't care. chances of me ever need to be one of the people who serve J'son are very slim so why do I matter to you. I believe that you are demonstrating the opposite of what you have been saying. You appear to be demonstrating that you do care. Things that we do not care about we do not ask for evidence of them. In fact, I can't think of anything on this planet that really ONLY cares for themselve and claims to rely on no one...could you drop me an example (not you)

ex: What you are doing.
me "Hey J'son, I have a mole behind my right knee"
J'son "I don't care, but will you show me it"...
vs.
how you describe yourself
me "Hey J'son, I have a mole behind my right knee"
J'son"...who the hell are you, why aren't you doing my bidding?"...

That's b/c you don't undertand your worldview either. You tell a man that "sin is sin" when I can write a NOVEL on how MANY scriptures will disagree with you.

I very much understand my groundings. and you left off the part where I said I know this because you have not asked enough questions of me to do so, but you have asked some so we will see where a good conversation can take our two stubborn personalities.

So you are saying that YOUR understanding supersedes the understanding of what people charged w/ leading people spiritually have?? ... yet tell me that His word is so poorly written that each and every believer can have "their own" understanding of it. Just show me that you're not an idiot and you understand that.

On the contrary this is why I cannot discuss the knowledge and understanding of other believers. Because they all come from different backgrounds and different places. But remember this: I have also mentioned that I believe the Bible is about the redemption of men, that said, ask believers what they believe in relation to redemption. then you will see a much more uniform answer. Its when you want to talk theology and apologetics that each believer is going to be different. mostly because each believer is not priviledge to all the knowledge compiled by all believers ever. We are not jacked into a computer source where we download information every night so as to be drones the following day. This is no difference from the atheist or non theist in that many of them (like people on this forum) have absolutely no grounding in their beliefs save the one similarity, they hate christians and the idea of god, other than that you will get the varied perspective and miscelaneous arguments. You are describing a human trait, not something based on religious preference.

So we are products of our environment?? ...all of the non-Christian types get the express train to hell for being born in the wrong country. Sweet.

are you suggesting that we all deserve something from God? Or we all deserve something from life or from anyone else? remember in your world view you don't deserve anything so how is the emotional plea lead to a valid question. Remember you don't care about those people, you only care about J'son. You don't hurt for them, you didn't fight for them, you don't wish things for them, you only act in accordance to your personal drive to do whatever J'son wants. And unfortunately J'son can never WANT to care because part of who you are is specifically NOT CARING. (BTW, I don't believe this to be true of you. and I know you care for your children(child) and your wife)

You know why I am laughing at you? B/c you make it easy... not ONCE have you made it where I need to roll up my sleeves, turn off Baby J and turn on J'son - NOT ONCE. I assure you -- you don't want that b/c make NO mistake about it, Reverand Harold Johnson (my grandad) and his colleagues are no match for me and neither are you. Not by a long shot. I mirror what I get... and so far I've seen nothing in you that makes me want to start thinking "for real". I'm a funny guy - so you'll have to forgive me if my personality shines through when I post, I like to keep things light sir. LOL. But I'm SURE that you can pull the meat out of my comments and address those. We should hang out sometime... I know some awesome churches that we can drive by and wave at.

You know its amazing that you would say I make it easy...even my real friends say that to me
After we ride by the churches, I know some good bars we can sit down in and discuss this stuff.

[sport_122]

wow...sorry forum lords...

[_Christian_]

read it, worth it
i have a copy if neone wants to borrow it

Literally picked up a copy today

[soul]

Literally picked up a copy today

you'll enjoy it, good read

[Starrfire]

Original post= complete win. Only b/c all of the funny things you have posted, I have also done the same things, the same experiences; and have found myself way to cynical and enjoy life day to day which is good enough for me. I don't need any mumbo jumbo getting in my way of what I want to do.

[Master Shake]

?Why did you cut him off and then say that he had no answer?

I can try to answer that question, but you must first understand that we have different world views and to understand any answer from any person of faith you must first realize that they may have a completely different way of understanding the character of God.

I see lots of people posting the bashing the God who "sits with his arms folded and does not get involved, or the made to burn concept" but I think even from a non believer stand point it is inaccurate to come to that conclusion if you look at the totality of the Bible.

If you are going off of the faith of God as Christianity understands him, which is the only one that my world view can understand, then you have to look at the totality of his character and not a snapshot. The totality of God's character is a just, loving, jealous God who makes law and maintains his word. So first I have to say what I believe the Bible to be.

I believe that the Bible is completely about the redemption of men. I believe it starts where it starts because it is not intended to explain the how's of creation and evolution and all those things that people get caught on. and it is the fault of many of us Christian's that we try to turn the Bible into what it is not intended for. I believe that people ask the wrong questions of the Bible, which are illogical to ask. For instance, if you buy an xbox or playstation you would not expect the manual to have the schematics and diagrams for wiring and all its internal electrical components and drives because Microsoft and Sony don't give that information to you. You would only expect to be provide with information on how to set it up and basic system info. We often ask the Bible to tell us these types of specific things and it does not. It doesn't tell us the age of the earth or whether or not dinosaurs where around, etc etc.

Keeping that in mind lets go back to your question:
According to the Bible and what we know of the character of God (which is not everything) we do know that upon the onset of the law that god condemns us with, there is also the redemption that God supplies for us (christians believe) through the life of Jesus.

so if you are asking if people that are gay are in sin, I would say, yes, but no more than a straight person, because there are many more ways that we break the laws that God set out for us that is laid out all over the bible. But just as the person who is not homosexual has the ability for redemption through Christ (remember we are talking about the christian perspective) the same thing exists for the homosexual.

What I am saying is that in God's eyes it only takes disobedience. That could be in the form of taking from a forbidden tree or murder or sexual sin, or lying, etc etc. But it never stops there for the sinner, because the work that God does is not complete until Christ is crucified. Only then is the truth fullfilled in Gods promises to men. The promise was that he would provide us with life and with redemption and freedom from the entrapment of sin of which we could not survive.

so in my world view, the totality of who God is is shown in the way that he has decided to reveal his grace, mercy, justice and love to us. It is no surprise to us that we do not understand it all the time. also keep in mind that there are many questions that will be asked of the believer of which he should not be able to answer, does that make the persons faith less valid? No, if believers could provide answers to everything I would be much more concerned at the fact that the God we believe in, who is most high and powerful, is so easily defined by us. he is not, and nobody, the christian, the atheist, the muslim, should expect him to be easily defined or his ways easily understood.

ok, i cut him off cause he was studdering and was having trouble finding words to say.

but its like this though, god creates all people and living things on the earth, and it pretty much says in the bible, that being gay is a sin, well, if god created all people and planned out everything for that person, why would he intentionally create a person, just to turn around, and condemn that person to hell?

when i talked to the pastor about it, he kept saying God loves all people no matter what, and he said he wouldn't do that and he couldn't give me a response that made any sense, BUT if god created that person to come out like that, then he pretty much created that person just to send to hell.

a person doesn't just come to life and say "i'm gonna be gay". it just doesn't work like that. someone can't really chose something like that. even if that person is a die hard christian, he/she will still be sent to hell for being gay. so what is that person suppose to do to reach the gates of heaven? even if they lived their life out, following all the rules laid out before them, with the exception, that person is gay.

now, i have heard different theories from a philosopher professor, that god does give us the option to make our own choices, but he knows what choices you are going to make, so is that still the same as being able to make your own choice? i mean, he knows what path you are going to take, but does that still be considered as being able to make the choice for youself?

[man]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that you know there is a God or that there is not, I feel sorry for you. It must be tough living with such low intelligence.

[sport_122]

ok, i cut him off cause he was studdering and was having trouble finding words to say.

but its like this though, god creates all people and living things on the earth, and it pretty much says in the bible, that being gay is a sin, well, if god created all people and planned out everything for that person, why would he intentionally create a person, just to turn around, and condemn that person to hell?

when i talked to the pastor about it, he kept saying God loves all people no matter what, and he said he wouldn't do that and he couldn't give me a response that made any sense, BUT if god created that person to come out like that, then he pretty much created that person just to send to hell.

a person doesn't just come to life and say "i'm gonna be gay". it just doesn't work like that. someone can't really chose something like that. even if that person is a die hard christian, he/she will still be sent to hell for being gay. so what is that person suppose to do to reach the gates of heaven? even if they lived their life out, following all the rules laid out before them, with the exception, that person is gay.

now, i have heard different theories from a philosopher professor, that god does give us the option to make our own choices, but he knows what choices you are going to make, so is that still the same as being able to make your own choice? i mean, he knows what path you are going to take, but does that still be considered as being able to make the choice for youself?

Did you read my entire post? It seems like a long answer to you, but your comments make it seem as though you never really wanted any person to answer that question.

You are using what is called observational selectivity to side step the problem with your bold statement. You are commenting on one part of the equation to try to make a point, when in fact Christians do not believe that condemnation is viewed in the way you portray it because you leave out one of the most important character traits of God, his redemption.

The way you state it means that "All have sin and All are going to hell." This is not the case and is a twisting of the truth of what the Bible teaches. You are using a false analogy based on what you "think" or "want" the bible to say vs what it really says. Meaning, you don't have to believe it, but at least have the decency to quote what its about correctly. If you really didn't want to have anyone answer then why did you ask the pastor in the first place? If someone does that to you more than likely you would think they were being an ass.

[Master Shake]

Did you read my entire post? It seems like a long answer to you, but your comments make it seem as though you never really wanted any person to answer that question.

You are using what is called observational selectivity to side step the problem with your bold statement. You are commenting on one part of the equation to try to make a point, when in fact Christians do not believe that condemnation is viewed in the way you portray it because you leave out one of the most important character traits of God, his redemption.

The way you state it means that "All have sin and All are going to hell." This is not the case and is a twisting of the truth of what the Bible teaches. You are using a false analogy based on what you "think" or "want" the bible to say vs what it really says. Meaning, you don't have to believe it, but at least have the decency to quote what its about correctly. If you really didn't want to have anyone answer then why did you ask the pastor in the first place? If someone does that to you more than likely you would think they were being an ass.

i'm not saying all that sin are going to hell, just the one particular subject. everyone sins, weather they want to admit it or not. and everyone must as for forgiveness. but for those that are gay, they ask for forgiveness, but they are still in sin for their way of life, did god create that person to send them to hell?

[DrivenMind]

Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it WAS done. I myself, believe in evolution. However, there is no real hardcore evidence that we DID evolve into what we are today. There is evidence that its POSSIBLE... but not that it happened.

People say we evolved from Monkeys yet man made objects were found in layers of the earth BILLIONS of years old.. and human footprints were found fossilized next to dinosaur footprints.

Just goes to show ya that just because something CAN be possible, and is probable, doesn't mean it happened.

...but what do I know... I'm just a COMPLETE FUCKING TARDFUCK WHO KNOWS NOTHING AND HAS NO REASON POSTING IN THIS SECTION WHO IS A CLUELESS FUCK AND NEEDS TO GET EDUCATED!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_(genus)
This means, not only is it possible, but it probably happened already.

And your comment about fossilized human footprints next to dinosaur footprints somehow "proving" that they coexisted is actually a favorite creationist myth.

[sport_122]

i'm not saying all that sin are going to hell, just the one particular subject. everyone sins, weather they want to admit it or not. and everyone must as for forgiveness. but for those that are gay, they ask for forgiveness, but they are still in sin for their way of life, did god create that person to send them to hell?

The simple answer, is that there are people on this planet who are homosexual who will not go to hell based on the bible, but this is through Christ. Also, there is a difference between struggling with sin and giving in or giving yourself over to it. The christian struggles with sin as a desire to live as one who has been redeemed (think, felon who just got out of prison trying to make it without continuing in the activity that got them into prison in the first place)

Think of alcoholism. There is evidence to show that some people are wired to be alcoholics (in fact...I think I am). That does not mean that they are ALL drunks, but given the right situation they could easily become that. I don't drink because of this, but I know drinking is wrong for me based on my family history and my drinking history (I was fortunate enough to stop early in my life). With alcoholism it is a constant struggle. Sometimes they are sober(long term) and sometimes they are relapsing, but the thing that lays the problem for their illness is when they are relapsing. An alcoholic is not necessarily always drunk and always looking for a drink, but it is when they are acting on the illness or embracing it and ignoring it as wrong and dangerous that they are doing wrong. I view these two things the same. both are programmed into who you are, and both are dangerous if we don't realize that there is a difference between struggling/wrestling with our illness (sin) and giving into or giving ourselves over to it.

So I believe the absolute wrong thing for us to do is to accept it as okay. this is my personal view based on believing this is an illness much like alcoholism or any of the many other addictions. But this goes into my personal views on how the psychology works and I think we (western nations) are doing a terrible thing to turn homosexuality into a thing of pop culture. but this is a much different topic than your question.

[DrivenMind]

The simple answer, is that there are people on this planet who are homosexual who will not go to hell based on the bible, but this is through Christ. Also, there is a difference between struggling with sin and giving in or giving yourself over to it. The christian struggles with sin as a desire to live as one who has been redeemed (think, felon who just got out of prison trying to make it without continuing in the activity that got them into prison in the first place)

Think of alcoholism. There is evidence to show that some people are wired to be alcoholics (in fact...I think I am). That does not mean that they are ALL drunks, but given the right situation they could easily become that. I don't drink because of this, but I know drinking is wrong for me based on my family history and my drinking history (I was fortunate enough to stop early in my life). With alcoholism it is a constant struggle. Sometimes they are sober(long term) and sometimes they are relapsing, but the thing that lays the problem for their illness is when they are relapsing. An alcoholic is not necessarily always drunk and always looking for a drink, but it is when they are acting on the illness or embracing it and ignoring it as wrong and dangerous that they are doing wrong. I view these two things the same. both are programmed into who you are, and both are dangerous if we don't realize that there is a difference between struggling/wrestling with our illness (sin) and giving into or giving ourselves over to it.

So I believe the absolute wrong thing for us to do is to accept it as okay. this is my personal view based on believing this is an illness much like alcoholism or any of the many other addictions. But this goes into my personal views on how the psychology works and I think we (western nations) are doing a terrible thing to turn homosexuality into a thing of pop culture. but this is a much different topic than your question.

Doesn't the first paragraph depend entirely on who's translating or interpreting scripture? One of the things I find most disturbing about organized religion is the fact that so many people seem to believe there is some sort of objective way of knowing exactly what god meant in his many books. The fact that so many people are able to sit down and discuss such a subjective subject believing their conversation will yield some objective truths is really quite a terrifying thing when you get down to it.

And say what you will about the Bible being a handy reference for morality, and this may very well have been its original purpose. However it is worth nothing that there has never been anything absolute about moral truths.

[sport_122]

Doesn't the first paragraph depend entirely on who's translating or interpreting scripture? One of the things I find most disturbing about organized religion is the fact that so many people seem to believe there is some sort of objective way of knowing exactly what god meant in his many books. The fact that so many people are able to sit down and discuss such a subjective subject believing their conversation will yield some objective truths is really quite a terrifying thing when you get down to it.

I actually agree. I actually outlined this previously a few posts ago. The only thing I would point out is that there are some thing that all Christian's should have in common. That is what can be discussed uniformly amongst those who are believers. If you get really specific then you will start to see those subjective things taking hold. For instance the Bible is very very specific on where people stand in relation to God and what tithing is and what a covenant is. its only when people who ignore what is actually written for their own personal reasons that a cloud starts to form and the grey sets in. And I also believe this is why we have the ability to reason. Because we should be checking our beliefs with other tools that we have been given. Like science, logic, history, translated language, etc...There is nothing in the Bible that tells us that the only thing we should use to understand God and scripture is the Bible.

And say what you will about the Bible being a handy reference for morality, and this may very well have been its original purpose. However it is worth nothing that there has never been anything absolute about moral truths.

I don't think the Bible is a reference for human morality. it tells us that human morality is out of our reach and that our morality has nothing to do with our ability to mend our relationship with God...(trying to keep the point simple, but it is a lot more involved than that)

There is nothing absolute about human law (as in legislated law) but there are absolute things that humans understand to be moral law, long before the books of the bible were written. For instance, nobody had to tell you that murdering or stealing is wrong. nobody has every had to define that. People still do it, but those who do often have to try to justify it, which shows that they knew something was not right about what they just did. In other words you can't go to any country on this planet, kill someone in public and not expect a reaction. Its never been that way. That seems pretty universal to me.

[trini_gsr]

I don't think the Bible is a reference for human morality. it tells us that human morality is out of our reach and that our morality has nothing to do with our ability to mend our relationship with God...(trying to keep the point simple, but it is a lot more involved than that)

i agree with most of what you've said but this is a little confusing. how can "human morality" be out of our reach as humans? I'm assuming you mean God's standard of morality? And what makes you say this?

[sport_122]

i agree with most of what you've said but this is a little confusing. how can "human morality" be out of our reach as humans? I'm assuming you mean God's standard of morality? And what makes you say this?

Great question. Thanks for checking me on this.

Human morality is subjective and I would define it as the laws/rules that are varied amongst nations and then the personal rules that we set for ourselves. What i am saying is that even the rules of conduct that humans make for themselves are not kept. We have an understanding of human conduct, but we do not even meet our own moral standard. Like being on time, keeping a budget, respecting one another, not speeding, cheating, maintaining a certain diet, new years resolutions etc. So maybe I should have said that keeping our own moral standards does not happen. And I guess I would also need to add that when I think of keeping or breaking your own rules, I am saying that if you break one of your rules you have severed your entire code of conduct or your personal morality.

And then based on the Bible, it is written numerous times that our most righteous acts are worthless. This is saying that the things that we do to try to earn our way into Gods favor are pointless. Christians do not believe that we get into heaven by being good, we believe it is purely by grace and mercy because we believe that we are guilty of breaking God's law and what we deserve is punishment, yet we are spared because of Christ.

Did that make more sense?...lemme know if I failed to define my statement.

[sirkus]

Faith is faith.. people will believe in what they want to.
I always have faith that the guy cooking my steak and Outback is going to create the best steak of my life. And when I see the final result.. I'm disappointed.
There are just people out there that believe in the scriptures and stories of the bible. It's just something they had been taught from family and social groups they like. They like the morals and enjoy living a life where they know they can have a sense of peace inside of them.
I envy those people. I really can't get into religion. I don't really believe in one way of life that people must live by. But if you chose a way of life and it makes you happy.. go for it. It's all good.
I've been raised around a good bit of Mormons and they always tell me stories of Joseph Smith and how much of a great man he was. But as you listen to the stories they tell.. they start to prove that he could be faking it. But all it took was someone to have faith in the fellow and people still follow him. His stories and teachings are of a more peaceful living and allow people to be at ease.
I really can't say that I believe in any kind of religion. Grandparents are Jewish and the others are catholic... so things have been a little misconstrued among my childhood. But now I feel that a lot of this stuff kind of makes sense.

And the fact that the whole story of Christ was stolen from the Egyptians of one of their gods. It was even pretty close with an Indian god. Just kind of makes me think that a lot of these religions were just set into place to allow people to have morals so that it's not complete chaos. If you don't have guide lines, then what kind of life would you live?...

I am not here trying to change anyone. I'm just trying to give a friendly incite to my views of religion.

[trini_gsr]

Great question. Thanks for checking me on this.

Human morality is subjective and I would define it as the laws/rules that are varied amongst nations and then the personal rules that we set for ourselves. What i am saying is that even the rules of conduct that humans make for themselves are not kept. We have an understanding of human conduct, but we do not even meet our own moral standard. Like being on time, keeping a budget, respecting one another, not speeding, cheating, maintaining a certain diet, new years resolutions etc. So maybe I should have said that keeping our own moral standards does not happen. And I guess I would also need to add that when I think of keeping or breaking your own rules, I am saying that if you break one of your rules you have severed your entire code of conduct or your personal morality.

And then based on the Bible, it is written numerous times that our most righteous acts are worthless. This is saying that the things that we do to try to earn our way into Gods favor are pointless. Christians do not believe that we get into heaven by being good, we believe it is purely by grace and mercy because we believe that we are guilty of breaking God's law and what we deserve is punishment, yet we are spared because of Christ.

Did that make more sense?...lemme know if I failed to define my statement.

thanks for the clarification. what you've described is my fundamental problem with the Bible, that I'm still trying to work out. the whole idea of sin, humans deserving punishment, heaven/hell, etc. it's just another system of control. and too one-dimensional/non-inclusive of other cultures' ideas of what spirituality means to be truly universal.

still, those who truly live by the Bible are often exemplary ppl in my experience, so I can't front on it, it does have a viable spiritual message.

[sport_122]

thanks for the clarification. what you've described is my fundamental problem with the Bible, that I'm still trying to work out. the whole idea of sin, humans deserving punishment, heaven/hell, etc. it's just another system of control. and too one-dimensional/non-inclusive of other cultures' ideas of what spirituality means to be truly universal.

still, those who truly live by the Bible are often exemplary ppl in my experience, so I can't front on it, it does have a viable spiritual message.

Great statements...Maybe we should start another thread to discuss freedom and if it ever really exists. This was a big discussion when I was in college because the matrix had just come out so every psychology class started talking about this.

I am not sure if spirituality is something that we could consider to be universal. Mostly because it is usually tied to a persons faith or religious preference in some way. You are correct though about the christian faith is in a God who is another form of control. It really is. The roots of the faith stem from believing in a God who is all powerful and in all control of all things. Because the faith is set on a sovereign God, the idea of him being controlling and doing things to suit his purpose is not far fetched at all. its actually almost point on for the thinking of reformed believers. And it is also important to point out that believers also believe that in all that happens, this God has the intention of redeeming us to him.

I guess the big thing is trying to understand that sovereignty does not denote tyranny. We are accustomed to believing that sovereign rulers and overbearing dictators are the same. They can be, but by definition they are not always the same. A sovereign ruler can be just, loving, benevolent, jealous, angry, and peaceful and still be good.

...this could easily become too much discussion for this thread.

[DrivenMind]

Great statements...Maybe we should start another thread to discuss freedom and if it ever really exists. This was a big discussion when I was in college because the matrix had just come out so every psychology class started talking about this.

I am not sure if spirituality is something that we could consider to be universal. Mostly because it is usually tied to a persons faith or religious preference in some way. You are correct though about the christian faith is in a God who is another form of control. It really is. The roots of the faith stem from believing in a God who is all powerful and in all control of all things. Because the faith is set on a sovereign God, the idea of him being controlling and doing things to suit his purpose is not far fetched at all. its actually almost point on for the thinking of reformed believers. And it is also important to point out that believers also believe that in all that happens, this God has the intention of redeeming us to him.

I guess the big thing is trying to understand that sovereignty does not denote tyranny. We are accustomed to believing that sovereign rulers and overbearing dictators are the same. They can be, but by definition they are not always the same. A sovereign ruler can be just, loving, benevolent, jealous, angry, and peaceful and still be good.

...this could easily become too much discussion for this thread.

I think I understand what you're saying here, but doesn't the very essence of believing in an all knowing, all seeing, creator in a sense confine a persons beliefs to celestial tyranny. Is it not the nature of tyranny to condemn all who disagree, and to ask people to submit blindly to authority?

I still don't understand why we feel so compelled to assign our petty human emotions to an entity that is supposedly all knowing and all powerful? Either god is all knowing an all powerful creator, or god is a personified figment of humanities collective imagination.

[sport_122]

I think I understand what you're saying here, but doesn't the very essence of believing in an all knowing, all seeing, creator in a sense confine a persons beliefs to celestial tyranny. Is it not the nature of tyranny to condemn all who disagree, and to ask people to submit blindly to authority?

You are right about the nature of tyranny, and if you believe that the all knowing creator is a tyrant then yes you are absolutely correct. But when the christian believes that that creator provided redemption when you should have provided wrath, then it is hard to see Him as a tyrant. Also the believer would say that God's character is always righteous.

If God did not provide redemption then he could be considered a tyrant. The foundation of the Judeo-christian faiths is about a God who will provide deliverance and redemption (and for the Christians we believe this has already happened), so the beliefs will flow out of the goodness that we believe God does for us personally as believers and collectively as a race of people.

I still don't understand why we feel so compelled to assign our petty human emotions to an entity that is supposedly all knowing and all powerful? Either god is all knowing an all powerful creator, or god is a personified figment of humanities collective imagination.

It could be that every human on this planet is crazy or there is something that is somehow a part of us that gives us certain knowledge that is embedded in the very fabric of who we are. Some people act on this knowledge and it becomes their faith, and some people deny this knowledge and rebel against it for whatever reason. But we ALL believe something, whether or not it is a religious belief of not, we ALL believe something and make something or someone a god in our lives. And that doesn't mean a trancendency, it just mean that we all have something that we use to fill that void.