Religion: Christianity in the Spotlight...

[sport_122]

False. well.... semi-false. at this poin in their life they are already brainwashed into doing and acting as they do, a change is not likely. however, I myself was raised in one of these families and brought myself out of it because I think far too much and none of the bible made sense to me. it didn't add up.

ok so please, just for me, will you give examples of these predictions? I'd like to see them and read them, please be as accurate as you can.

or buy saturday

I think his statement is pretty accurate. He didn't comment on the likelihood he simply said they have the choice to explore and follow their own hearts. The internal nature of faith often makes children choose things differently from their parents. Every person has the choice. There are consequences just like with any other choice, but that doesn't mean they don't have some option. Most of the people I know who are believers don't believe exactly what their parents do and most people who I know that claim to be atheists or agnostics come from some sort of religious background. This denotes that his statement has no false edges to it. Just like voting...every U.S. citizen can vote, but not all of us do, and for the ones that do they can vote in many different ways.

Predictions in the Bible. Specifically look in the Old Testament. The prophets of the old testament would warn the people of the impending courses of slavery and hardships in the times of their denial and reluctancy to look to God.

Specifically look at the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel. Those prophecies that are made are most directed at the Jewish people and they came true in their very lifetime or within the period. Then there are prophets who are considered minor prophets and they wrote about the coming messiah, his lineage, how he would be killed (even though crucifixion was not practiced at the time of the prophecies) and they wrote about specific details like the lack of a broken bone in his body (which is significant because the crucifixion process ended with the roman soldiers breaking the legs of the person being crucified, but this did not happen with Christ, and this was unusual for that method of execution. Anyway some of the minors are Hosea, Zechariah, Joel, Amos, Habakkuk, Malachi, Obediah, and Micah. There are more, but these are the ones I think are easiest to read. But either way, many of these men made claims during their life that were ignored by the Jews, some of them were beating and run off, but many of them saw their prophecies fulfilled in their lifetime.

Read on your own for specifics. But I will say that many of the prophecies about the jewish nation disobeying God and being punished were fulfilled shortly after they were prophesied and you can read those accounts as well.

[Ocelot]

I'm not atheist, not agnostic, not religious. I'm myself and just want to learn, I'll take it to another topic so we don't de-rail this one more

[bu villain]

That being said, I'm glad my God can't be proven; I'm glad that He can't be figured out, and I'm glad that He is ultimately in control. What kind of God would He be if I could figure Him out like my best friend, or I knew what He was going to do before He did it like my girlfriend? That's weak, son! His mind boggling principle is what makes Him God..

This is an interesting quote which I think gets to the crux of why there is a lot of animocity against many religions. God is so mind boggling as you put it and yet many religious people claim to know in incredible detail exactly what God wants.

[Ocelot]

yeah, according to the stories, God spoke directly to people, where are the people he speaks to now?

[ahabion]

This topic is pretty much going to be never-ending... one thing that I do find interesting in today's observation is this comparison: Christianity and Environmentalists.

It was predicted by many environmentalists that the polar ice caps would have melted by this time back in the 70's or that the ozone layer would be completely obliterated. At that time, people saw it as crazy talk, today many still do but there are some that have bought into that very belief. They don't ask for proof or concrete evidence that such conjecture is accurate, they take it as face value and do so as they were told would be good for them.

Is "Go Green" wrong? No, I think it's a good thing... cleaner air, less litter, less toxicity in our waters and earth... Do I buy into the whole notion that the world will come to an end if we don't Go Green? No, I don't. I don't because I don't need anymore information on the matter and have come to my own conclusions. I'm free to think what I want and believe in what I want.

What we're missing in this discussion and in America for that matter is: Personal Responsibility.

"Turn's out that McDonalds does serve hot coffee."

[Ocelot]

and dayum their coffee is served hot.... >.<

[geoff]

ocelot...God has spoken to me a few times but not like the old testament....the first time was about a year ago when i was searching for God and i just didnt have strong faith. i remember after reading my bible one night i went outside and said God if your truly real and you hear me give me a sign. sure enough the next sunday at our church we had a guest preacher who at the end of service was praying for healing for our members. one man had a crippled hand and was healed on the spot. i have two other times that i can share if you like. lmk

[zimabog]

placebos have the same effect

[Ocelot]

ocelot...God has spoken to me a few times but not like the old testament....the first time was about a year ago when i was searching for God and i just didnt have strong faith. i remember after reading my bible one night i went outside and said God if your truly real and you hear me give me a sign. sure enough the next sunday at our church we had a guest preacher who at the end of service was praying for healing for our members. one man had a crippled hand and was healed on the spot. i have two other times that i can share if you like. lmk

I was talking about like back in the old days.

but do share more of your experiences, you can PM them if you don't want everyone to hear it. Hand cured? what was wrong with the hand?

[geoff]

and yes the hand was cured. the man had extreme athritis in his right hand. his fingers were completely disformed and bent and crooked. to tell the truth it wa pretty gross. his hand now is no different then mine. well its got wrinkles and what not but you get the point.

another time i was reading a book called learn how to pray on my front porch. i was reading the Lords prayer and a snake came on the porch. my room is in the front of the house and the snake was trying to get in my windows. he tried a few times and couldnt so slithered off. i believe God spoke to me cuz i had been praying that God would let me know what i needed to do to get a deeper relationship with Him, He told me that i need to stay in His word and pray...thats how i took it. maybe it was just a coincidence?

another time i was really feeling like God wanted me to preach a sermon to the youth group, i was scared cuz i was gonna give my testimony about where i came from ( partying, drinking, drugs, sex, ect...) and i had a good reputation in the church and didnt want to ruin it. i struggled with this for a long time. finally one night before i started reading my bible i prayed that God would let me know if this was something i should do and to give me an answer. i decided to just open up the bible anywhere and have God answer me. i opened it and random and swear on everything that i hold dear that this is the first verse i read ( i remember to this day like it just happened) "Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life." acts 5:20. still more examples

[zimabog]

Do any of you like Communion? A little flesh and blood of the Messiah?

[sport_122]

This is an interesting quote which I think gets to the crux of why there is a lot of animocity against many religions. God is so mind boggling as you put it and yet many religious people claim to know in incredible detail exactly what God wants.

I like this quote...I just believe that God is slowly revealing himself through us and he has provided us with the means to start do understand and discern him and his ways.

I guess my faith in this process is much like the faith that a humanist or atheist would have in science. As they would say, science is not everything, but it is a method that eventually leads us to answers...I just happen to think that the end of that quest will be the full revelation of God and all that He has done.

maybe i'm weird, but I know that I have done enough research to feel extremely grounded in what I believe.

[revsk8erdude]

im atheist for reason being, i believe in what i makes more sense. think about it. what has more scientific proof behind it? evolution>creationisim

end of story.

[sport_122]

im atheist for reason being, i believe in what i makes more sense. think about it. what has more scientific proof behind it? evolution>creationisim

end of story.

scientific proof behind what in atheism?....

[revsk8erdude]

Go back and read that again. I dont think you understood that right.

[sport_122]

Go back and read that again. I dont think you understood that right.

that would make sense if evolution was even in the same bracket as creationism.

evolution is a process...creationism is a discussion on origins. They are not even arguing the same argument. The Bible says nothing contrary to evolution and evolution does not say anything contrary to creationism, this conclusion is a false analogy as the two do not exist on the same plane, unless you are talking about the people who assume that the process God used was immediate, but that is theory again and not universally supported by the Bible.

My point is that the science behind scripture and other (seemingly) non biblical theories is mostly a controversy that is made up by people who are not trying to promote science as much as they want to remove or tear down the concepts of religion. They will never succeed in this because both of these topics are going to remain subjective and people are going to believe based on their presuppositions. Atheism is about lack of evidence for God, but the process of evolution does not sway that conversation either way. You should listen to John Lennox and Richard Dawkins discuss this its a great conversation.

I'm fine with you claiming to be an atheist, but science does not support this discussion either way. That's a myth made up by scientist who figured they were all of a sudden smarter than people of faith, but even in our history we are often finding out that our ancient civilizations were much smarter than we give them credit for.

[OZ135]

I agree 100% those ppl are just lost

[highspeed]

im atheist for reason being, i believe in what i makes more sense. think about it. what has more scientific proof behind it? evolution>creationisim

end of story.

I keep out of this forum for a reason.........because I come from a very religious, deeply christian family......my father,grandfather,other grandfather,etc., have all been pastors...........so:

I do believe in God, but I don't believe in the Bible.......completely. It has been translated and passed on for centuries, just like telling your friend something and by the time it gets back to you......it is usually something else.

I went to a Christian college in TN where 2 of the core requirements were Old Testament and New testament, as unpleasent as it was, it was still good for me to finally figure out what "I" beleive.

For me to tell you that evolutionism is wrong would be overly provencial, as it would be to tell me that creationism ........i.e the christian "God", isn't real. I have had many heated discussions with many of my friends, usually ending with me arguing that God isn't real and that Evolution is undoubtebly the way we came about. But then I realized how crazy and stupid I sounded, not because I argued for evolutionism.......the fact that I was arguing about this made me realize that it wasn't my PLACE to argue, but to find the truth that made sense to me. It look back and realize that I just argued because I envied their(christians, muslim, etc.) stronger faith, because it made me feel that they had "found themselves" while I was still lost in a sea of confusion.

It is generally known that a true christian( or buddist, muslim, hindu)all have a high amount of faith in what they believe, for one reason or another. I actually had to take a step back and found that I frankly envy them, because I don't have that kind of faith in anything, unless I can see it, touch it, feel it, and or smell it. This is because I am a rational thinker, I can rationalize anything til it has been broken down to make sense in my mind. I don't fault myself for that, I just know that my faith is less, not weaker, than other people.

I know that I will get flamed for my comments because someone will read one part, and not the other.........yet another reason why I don't post on here



Faith, and religion(or lack of) is a personal struggle and quest.

In my eyes, to tell one person they are wrong because they believe in 3 Gods instead of one, or to tell someone that because they believe in God(or not).....they are crazy................is just close-minded and is a coping mechanism for the weak of mind and heart.

Thats just me

Im going to open up a thread on Church......because I would love to see some arguments about if it is a big scheme or worth the trouble.

[ahabion]

I keep out of this forum for a reason.........because I come from a very religious, deeply christian family......my father,grandfather,other grandfather,etc., have all been pastors...........so:

I do believe in God, but I don't believe in the Bible.......completely. It has been translated and passed on for centuries, just like telling your friend something and by the time it gets back to you......it is usually something else.

I went to a Christian college in TN where 2 of the core requirements were Old Testament and New testament, as unpleasent as it was, it was still good for me to finally figure out what "I" beleive.

For me to tell you that evolutionism is wrong would be overly provencial, as it would be to tell me that creationism ........i.e the christian "God", isn't real. I have had many heated discussions with many of my friends, usually ending with me arguing that God isn't real and that Evolution is undoubtebly the way we came about. But then I realized how crazy and stupid I sounded, not because I argued for evolutionism.......the fact that I was arguing about this made me realize that it wasn't my PLACE to argue, but to find the truth that made sense to me. It look back and realize that I just argued because I envied their(christians, muslim, etc.) stronger faith, because it made me feel that they had "found themselves" while I was still lost in a sea of confusion.

It is generally known that a true christian( or buddist, muslim, hindu)all have a high amount of faith in what they believe, for one reason or another. I actually had to take a step back and found that I frankly envy them, because I don't have that kind of faith in anything, unless I can see it, touch it, feel it, and or smell it. This is because I am a rational thinker, I can rationalize anything til it has been broken down to make sense in my mind. I don't fault myself for that, I just know that my faith is less, not weaker, than other people.

I know that I will get flamed for my comments because someone will read one part, and not the other.........yet another reason why I don't post on here



Faith, and religion(or lack of) is a personal struggle and quest.

In my eyes, to tell one person they are wrong because they believe in 3 Gods instead of one, or to tell someone that because they believe in God(or not).....they are crazy................is just close-minded and is a coping mechanism for the weak of mind and heart.

Thats just me

Im going to open up a thread on Church......because I would love to see some arguments about if it is a big scheme or worth the trouble.

Very well put! I can agree to that 100% and I'm a Christian

What I can appreciate about you specifically is that you OWNED your conscious decision to believe or not to believe. To find answers for yourself and not buy into what "people" say on either side of the fence.

For the OP, decide for yourself... people aren't trained like a dog is to it's master... you make a decision, to be or not to be? That is the question!

[Ocelot]

not everyone makes the decision, and not everyone is capable of changing their mind when they are adult.

some people had to go to church because their family said so, it was sort of brainwashed into them. is it wrong to take your kid to church? nah. but it makes it hard for them to "choose their own beliefs"

[sport_122]

Ocelot.

what you are referring to is called presuppositions. Basically its all those things that shape how we will interpret anything that we take in with our five senses. If your initial view on life is that there is a God and he is real then you are more likely to interpret all things in light of that and if you don't believe there is a God then you are likely to interpret things in that manor.

It is very difficult to get around that personally, and especially with outside influences. I really had to wrestle with those things that I used to believe about God that were foundational things in my presuppositions and it is usually those things that when you first hear them you are shocked, or you think, no that's impossible. Things like free will, evolution, Alien/UFO existence, but after looking and really digging my presuppositions are very different than they were 12 years ago.

[sport_122]

I went to a Christian college in TN where 2 of the core requirements were Old Testament and New testament, as unpleasent as it was, it was still good for me to finally figure out what "I" beleive.

For me to tell you that evolutionism is wrong would be overly provencial, as it would be to tell me that creationism ........i.e the christian "God", isn't real. I have had many heated discussions with many of my friends, usually ending with me arguing that God isn't real and that Evolution is undoubtebly the way we came about. But then I realized how crazy and stupid I sounded, not because I argued for evolutionism.......the fact that I was arguing about this made me realize that it wasn't my PLACE to argue, but to find the truth that made sense to me. It look back and realize that I just argued because I envied their(christians, muslim, etc.) stronger faith, because it made me feel that they had "found themselves" while I was still lost in a sea of confusion.

It is generally known that a true christian( or buddist, muslim, hindu)all have a high amount of faith in what they believe, for one reason or another. I actually had to take a step back and found that I frankly envy them, because I don't have that kind of faith in anything, unless I can see it, touch it, feel it, and or smell it. This is because I am a rational thinker, I can rationalize anything til it has been broken down to make sense in my mind. I don't fault myself for that, I just know that my faith is less, not weaker, than other people.

I sort of agree with you.

I guess the differences are that I believe that the Bible tells us that we are to be prepared to give reason for our belief and a denial of this very principle is why there are so many people who don't even understand the foundation of the relationship. Yes there is faith that is a part of it, but the faith that we should have should be made valid by the evidence that we can present for that faith. It doesn't mean that everyone will agree with it. It will mean that we are not stupid and blindly buying into something, but we are looking at what is provided as information and making a conscious effort to understand our beliefs. So I feel that believers are supposed to be able to argue their beliefs by the use of logic, science, and historical information and without those our beliefs become clouded and the truths associated with our faith get twisted because we can forget over time why we believe what we believe if we don't strengthen the core of our faith. And those who argue against faith are definitely going to twist our beliefs to make them seem archaic or invalid.

This is why I also believe it is very important to understand the history of the Bible and all of its translations. Mostly because it is not true to assume that the Bible has been passed along like a game of telephone. It hasn't. We still have almost all of the original texts in their greek/hebrew form and translations come from these, not from the last translation. The reason for the numerous translations, is because our language has evolved and in order to keep things current we have to be able to have the most accurate translation available because the Greek and Hebrew languages are extremely detailed languages and in many cases we can't directly translate into those languages as we could spanish or french. We just don't have the vocabulary for it. But most of the new translations come directly from the original texts, not a previously translated text. And we have to update translations because WE are changing all the time and we will have a huge disconnect if we did not.

I have always pushed myself in my beliefs, but the first thing I had to do was find out what was valid and what would be useful. If we write our faith off to just faith and ignore the history that is written (which we can't touch or feel, or ignore the philosophical information that cannot be touched with the senses then we will undercut the logic and rationality that really legitimizes the Christian faith. I personally don't agree with believers who say, its just faith, because based on the Bible we should be able to see and understand the evidence of its claims. Its not a book of science, but it is a book of progressiveness. As time goes on and we become more aware and we are allowed to investigate and gain understandings of those things written in the Bible. But we cannot do that if we feel that the Bible is made up of a people playing telephone. If I believed that then I would not believe any of it because there would be no way of telling what was made up and what was actually experienced.


BTW, where did you go to school? Covenant? Lee?

[Maniacc]

Ocelot.

what you are referring to is called presuppositions. Basically its all those things that shape how we will interpret anything that we take in with our five senses. If your initial view on life is that there is a God and he is real then you are more likely to interpret all things in light of that and if you don't believe there is a God then you are likely to interpret things in that manor.

That's not necessarily true.

I was raised to believe in God and to take the word of the bible as truth as a kid. I was baptized and did my first communion, but I never cared for it. I did it because my parents pretty much forced me to.

It didn't shape me into the person that I am today. I wasn't into church as a kid and I am still not. I interpret things in a logical manner.

It is very difficult to get around that personally, and especially with outside influences. I really had to wrestle with those things that I used to believe about God that were foundational things in my presuppositions and it is usually those things that when you first hear them you are shocked, or you think, no that's impossible. Things like free will, evolution, Alien/UFO existence, but after looking and really digging my presuppositions are very different than they were 12 years ago.

I personally don't see a reason to be shocked after being informed about aliens, evolution, ect. because seeing the world only through a religous point of view is pretty childish. People should be opened to things. No reason to limit yourself.

As a kid it was pretty easy accepting the fact that religion contained flaws and it was also pretty easy for me to accept that science contained flaws. Both sides aren't perfect but when you look at them in a logical way you can logically say that religion contains a lot more flaws than science and it's theories. Science provides answers to questions. Religion does not.

[Ocelot]

I too was raised religious, even went to a religious school as a child, but then my parents stopped it all in order to give me and my brother a choice with what we want to do with our lives. I thank them for this.

however, not everyone is so lucky

[Maniacc]

I too was raised religious, even went to a religious school as a child, but then my parents stopped it all in order to give me and my brother a choice with what we want to do with our lives. I thank them for this.

however, not everyone is so lucky

Haha, lucky you. I wasn't give the pleasure of deciding whether or not I wanted to contine going to church. I pretty much had to get into arguments with my parents every sunday morning growing up. And explain to them how I hated church and how much of a waste of time it was(for me at least). I'm an adult now and I still get the occasional 'want to go to church with us next friday?' I mean, I don't even live with them anymore lol.

[Ocelot]

it happens, at least know they mean well, they want what they feel is best for you, even if you do not think it is

[ahabion]

As a pastor's kid, I was always made to go to church (my dad is the pastor!). Doesn't mean that I wanted to go nor does it mean that I believed what my parents did. I'm sure that goes for a lot of preacher kids (hence the stereotype that preacher kids are the worst behaved). We try to break out of the shell that our parents form around us... but isn't that how it is for ALL kids irregardless of what that shell may be, good or bad? Honestly, we strive to be the opposite of what our parents are when we grow up... but somewhere in my mid-teens... there was a pivotal point in my life of living my life my way that basically said, "Who are you and what do you want to be?"

You can be brought up in any kind of household but ultimately, YOU choose your life as an adult irregardless of your influences. Because only YOU can change the circumstances of your life. Refusing to take responsibility of your life and blaming it on parents, friends, church, cults, beliefs, whatever is simply ignoring the fact that you live your life and you and the choices you make affect you.

[highspeed]

I sort of agree with you.

I guess the differences are that I believe that the Bible tells us that we are to be prepared to give reason for our belief and a denial of this very principle is why there are so many people who don't even understand the foundation of the relationship. Yes there is faith that is a part of it, but the faith that we should have should be made valid by the evidence that we can present for that faith. It doesn't mean that everyone will agree with it. It will mean that we are not stupid and blindly buying into something, but we are looking at what is provided as information and making a conscious effort to understand our beliefs. So I feel that believers are supposed to be able to argue their beliefs by the use of logic, science, and historical information and without those our beliefs become clouded and the truths associated with our faith get twisted because we can forget over time why we believe what we believe if we don't strengthen the core of our faith. And those who argue against faith are definitely going to twist our beliefs to make them seem archaic or invalid.

This is why I also believe it is very important to understand the history of the Bible and all of its translations. Mostly because it is not true to assume that the Bible has been passed along like a game of telephone. It hasn't. We still have almost all of the original texts in their greek/hebrew form and translations come from these, not from the last translation. The reason for the numerous translations, is because our language has evolved and in order to keep things current we have to be able to have the most accurate translation available because the Greek and Hebrew languages are extremely detailed languages and in many cases we can't directly translate into those languages as we could spanish or french. We just don't have the vocabulary for it. But most of the new translations come directly from the original texts, not a previously translated text. And we have to update translations because WE are changing all the time and we will have a huge disconnect if we did not.

I have always pushed myself in my beliefs, but the first thing I had to do was find out what was valid and what would be useful. If we write our faith off to just faith and ignore the history that is written (which we can't touch or feel, or ignore the philosophical information that cannot be touched with the senses then we will undercut the logic and rationality that really legitimizes the Christian faith. I personally don't agree with believers who say, its just faith, because based on the Bible we should be able to see and understand the evidence of its claims. Its not a book of science, but it is a book of progressiveness. As time goes on and we become more aware and we are allowed to investigate and gain understandings of those things written in the Bible. But we cannot do that if we feel that the Bible is made up of a people playing telephone. If I believed that then I would not believe any of it because there would be no way of telling what was made up and what was actually experienced.


BTW, where did you go to school? Covenant? Lee?

I went to Lee University

[geoff]

i myself was raised in a romanian pentocostal church. i didnt understand it at all cuz i didnt have a good understanding of the language. i left church with my mother when i was 10. when i was 19 i suddenly found my way back to church. i spent countless days and nights studying and searching and in the end i have my faith now that 1. God is real. 2. He came down as Jesus and died for our sins to provide salvation 3. salvation comes from hearing the word, repenting, confessing Christ as Lord of my life, baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins, baptism of fire ( the Holy Spirit ), living my life as the apostles and disciples did, and finally that the Word of God is Truth and will not fade away nor does it change. i can honestly say that i have never had more peace than being in Gods presence.

[revsk8erdude]

what the hell was i thinking posting in here...