Animals

[Jaimecbr900]

all animals are domesticated, just as humans are... why do you think animal hunt in packs and live in heards, is that not domesticated behavior? i believe it is. Just as you or I... your parents domesticated you, w/o them you would be wild just like an animal. I you put a child in a room to grow up in w/o any contact what do you think the child will be??? he will be an animal, he will know nothing more than animal instinct, b/c that is what he can learn.

i think you people need to rethink what you have learned b/c animals serve a far greater purpose than you can image. its amazing that, heard of animals can live off the jungle/forest alone, but you or I wouldn't last 24hrs w/ all of the knowledge we have.

That's the old Nature vs Nurture debate but only referencing animals.

If animals were put here for a "higher purpose" than to serve us as either food, to help work, or companionship, then why aren't you a vegeterian???? Wouldn't everyone BE vegeterian then? If you truly believe that, then why eat a burger or hot dog?

Animals survive in the wild better than we do simply because that's their instinct. You put a Gorilla in the middle of Manhattan and he'd survive as long as you would in HIS environment w/o prior training. Point? It doesn't make him SMART to do what he has been programmed and taught to do. It merely makes him a survivor technically. Take him out of his environment and what happens? If not taught or taken care of by a HUMAN, he'd perish just as any other thing taken out of their natural environment. Humans are the only species able to adapt fast enough to prolong the inevitable and sometimes even adapt completely.

If I take your poodle and put it in the Jungles of Brazil, it will die just as fast if not faster than you would. It's not used to fending for itself and other animals may come along and eat it. You on the other hand could atleast forage for food, make shelter, and depending on training could survive for an indefinite amount of time. Animals hunt in packs and stand in herds merely out of instinct and survival. Majority of the time they are preprogrammed that way just like a computer. Some animals also NEVER hunt in packs and NEVER stand together in herds. Does that mean they are less of an animal for it? No. Just programmed different.

BTW, just FYI.....I will check for sure, but it is my understanding that the bible says something to the effect of "IF you've never been given a choice to believe in God (i.e. babies, animals, far off tribes, etc) that you will not be condemned". Again, don't quote me, but I've heard that before somewhere. I will look it up to give the exact verbage. This is where the Catholic church gets the idea of "Purgatory", a place that is neither Heaven nor Hell. I will check tonight when I go to church, so noone start a flaming war about this just yet.

[Killer]

i could do plenty of things to survive... you'd have to be the biggest idiot ever to not las 24 hours. humans have logic and can figure things out on there own.... i can put a puzzle together cause i can logically think... i can take notice to the shapes... so on and so forth... i've never seen a dog go buy a puzzle and figure it out.

and Jamie... that's just a belief about the "if your not able to understand"..... No one really know's... i've asked plenty of pastors/preachers and all say it is not in the Bible... the belief your speaking of is called "The age of accountability".

[Hulud]

If animals were put here for a "higher purpose" than to serve us as either food, to help work, or companionship, then why aren't you a vegeterian???? Wouldn't everyone BE vegeterian then? If you truly believe that, then why eat a burger or hot dog?

why arent all animals vegetarian? its the circle of life. just because we feel that animals are not here for us doesnt mean we shouldnt eat them. other lions (and other animals) eat smaller animals all the time, the smaller animals were not put here just for food, imo

BTW, just FYI.....I will check for sure, but it is my understanding that the bible says something to the effect of "IF you've never been given a choice to believe in God (i.e. babies, animals, far off tribes, etc) that you will not be condemned". Again, don't quote me, but I've heard that before somewhere. I will look it up to give the exact verbage. This is where the Catholic church gets the idea of "Purgatory", a place that is neither Heaven nor Hell. I will check tonight when I go to church, so noone start a flaming war about this just yet.

find that cause i havent heard that before and i would like to be informed. sounds good

[Pedal]

you can put a puzzle together b/c you were tought how to recognize shapes as shapes and so on and so forth

[Killer]

well teach your dog and u'll have me convinced.....

[Jaimecbr900]

why arent all animals vegetarian? its the circle of life. just because we feel that animals are not here for us doesnt mean we shouldnt eat them. other lions (and other animals) eat smaller animals all the time, the smaller animals were not put here just for food, imo

You're not making sense. In one sentence you say you believe animals are NOT here for us, yet in the next you say we can eat them. Is "eating" an animal NOT using them for yourself? Would that not be one way in which they serve us?

You're right, animals do serve a variety of purposes. I've been saying that all along. You were saying there sole purpose was merely to "live" like we do. I don't agree with that because if it were WE as humans with brains would then certainly NOT EAT them. That's like practicing Cannibalism. Do you agree with Cannibalism then? Why not? It's no different than what you perceive people do now.

[4dmin]

That's the old Nature vs Nurture debate but only referencing animals.

If animals were put here for a "higher purpose" than to serve us as either food, to help work, or companionship, then why aren't you a vegeterian???? Wouldn't everyone BE vegeterian then? If you truly believe that, then why eat a burger or hot dog?

Animals survive in the wild better than we do simply because that's their instinct. You put a Gorilla in the middle of Manhattan and he'd survive as long as you would in HIS environment w/o prior training. Point? It doesn't make him SMART to do what he has been programmed and taught to do. It merely makes him a survivor technically. Take him out of his environment and what happens? If not taught or taken care of by a HUMAN, he'd perish just as any other thing taken out of their natural environment. Humans are the only species able to adapt fast enough to prolong the inevitable and sometimes even adapt completely.

If I take your poodle and put it in the Jungles of Brazil, it will die just as fast if not faster than you would. It's not used to fending for itself and other animals may come along and eat it. You on the other hand could atleast forage for food, make shelter, and depending on training could survive for an indefinite amount of time. Animals hunt in packs and stand in herds merely out of instinct and survival. Majority of the time they are preprogrammed that way just like a computer. Some animals also NEVER hunt in packs and NEVER stand together in herds. Does that mean they are less of an animal for it? No. Just programmed different.

BTW, just FYI.....I will check for sure, but it is my understanding that the bible says something to the effect of "IF you've never been given a choice to believe in God (i.e. babies, animals, far off tribes, etc) that you will not be condemned". Again, don't quote me, but I've heard that before somewhere. I will look it up to give the exact verbage. This is where the Catholic church gets the idea of "Purgatory", a place that is neither Heaven nor Hell. I will check tonight when I go to church, so noone start a flaming war about this just yet.

Why do you have to be a vegitarian (and the word you were actually looking for is vegan) if you think animal have a higher purpose??? Animals eat other animals, we are nothing but animals, so why shouldn't we??? Its called survival of the fittest.

Just as you stated we couldn't survive in thier domain as they in ours, so what makes us any different. And if in the bible as you say "if not given the choice" then how can babies go to heaven and not animals???

[4dmin]

i could do plenty of things to survive... you'd have to be the biggest idiot ever to not las 24 hours. humans have logic and can figure things out on there own.... i can put a puzzle together cause i can logically think... i can take notice to the shapes... so on and so forth... i've never seen a dog go buy a puzzle and figure it out.

really you want to wager some money and your life on this??? i don't think you could survive 24 hours in the jungle/desert... lol, i would like to see how you would w/o any clothes, or any object for that matter; just this ego you have that thinks you are higher being. Even w/ you being "so logical" have you ever tried to make fire w/o matches, or hunt w/o a gun?

Animmals work puzzle just as you or i and they can recognize shapes... animals are like children, most life expectancy isn't as long as ours and their brains don't have the development capability ours do. its almost like a retard child or a todler. A dog knows what food is just like a todler; they must be trained to know where to shit.

[Jaimecbr900]

Why do you have to be a vegitarian (and the word you were actually looking for is vegan) if you think animal have a higher purpose??? Animals eat other animals, we are nothing but animals, so why shouldn't we??? Its called survival of the fittest.

Because if you believe that animals are not here to serve us in some capacity, food included, then you feel they are here for a "higher purpose". What's that "higher purpose", I don't know. But if you honestly feel that way, then it would stand to reason that you would NOT eat them since the act of EATING something can certainly be seen as the food SERVING for us. It's stretching, but you get the point I'm trying to make.

Just as you stated we couldn't survive in thier domain as they in ours, so what makes us any different.

In the bible it clearly states in Genesis that:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."


It goes on to say:

3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

So to ME there are clear indications of what God intended. Again, that is only IF you believe the bible. IF you don't, then I guess you don't.

[4dmin]

Because if you believe that animals are not here to serve us in some capacity, food included, then you feel they are here for a "higher purpose". What's that "higher purpose", I don't know. But if you honestly feel that way, then it would stand to reason that you would NOT eat them since the act of EATING something can certainly be seen as the food SERVING for us. It's stretching, but you get the point I'm trying to make.



In the bible it clearly states in Genesis that:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."


It goes on to say:

3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

So to ME there are clear indications of what God intended. Again, that is only IF you believe the bible. IF you don't, then I guess you don't.

it is still kill or be killed... personally you say humans are supposed to serve a higher purpose than animals, but i would own a slave and many of you too would, which is nothing more than an animal. you have to be realistic about this... as you said earlier you couldn't survive in their domain they can't survive in yours, so how are you better than an animal? We are the same just smarter.

You can't take the bible word for word anyway cause in this cause "anything that lives and moves" that would mean humans as well?

[Killer]

really you want to wager some money and your life on this??? i don't think you could survive 24 hours in the jungle/desert... lol, i would like to see how you would w/o any clothes, or any object for that matter; just this ego you have that thinks you are higher being. Even w/ you being "so logical" have you ever tried to make fire w/o matches, or hunt w/o a gun?

Animmals work puzzle just as you or i and they can recognize shapes... animals are like children, most life expectancy isn't as long as ours and their brains don't have the development capability ours do. its almost like a retard child or a todler. A dog knows what food is just like a todler; they must be trained to know where to shit.

if i didn't have a job... i'd take you up on the jungle... the desert ef no!!! have you seen the sun in the desert.. with no clothes my a would be burnt in the first five seconds!!!

but until animals start inventing things or come up with a way to translate our languages, or anything else a human can do for that matter... they are here to either serve as food our carry out a duty that makes this earth work. Not to just live or to worship God.

[ISAtlanta300]

it is still kill or be killed... personally you say humans are supposed to serve a higher purpose than animals, but i would own a slave and many of you too would, which is nothing more than an animal. you have to be realistic about this... as you said earlier you couldn't survive in their domain they can't survive in yours, so how are you better than an animal? We are the same just smarter.

You can't take the bible word for word anyway cause in this cause "anything that lives and moves" that would mean humans as well?

I don't get the "slave" part... My dog does not clean my house or cook my breakfast or work in my yard so I lost you there.....



Someone said something about babies and dogs being "taught" what food is and where to shit.. Thank you for making the point even more valid. That goes to show that the human brain DEVELOPS, while an animal brain DOES NOT !!

You STILL would need to teach a 6 month old puppy from the kennel where to shit, while a 6 year old may wipe his own ass already. If I brought a 6 year old to YOUR house, I do not need to teach him AGAIN where to shit.. he would KNOW to ask for the bathroom then and would KNOW what a bathroom is for. An ANIMAL can NOT figure that out for himself. THAT is the difference between Man and Animal.

[4dmin]

I don't get the "slave" part... My dog does not clean my house or cook my breakfast or work in my yard so I lost you there.....



Someone said something about babies and dogs being "taught" what food is and where to shit.. Thank you for making the point even more valid. That goes to show that the human brain DEVELOPS, while an animal brain DOES NOT !!

You STILL would need to teach a 6 month old puppy from the kennel where to shit, while a 6 year old may wipe his own ass already. If I brought a 6 year old to YOUR house, I do not need to teach him AGAIN where to shit.. he would KNOW to ask for the bathroom then and would KNOW what a bathroom is for. An ANIMAL can NOT figure that out for himself. THAT is the difference between Man and Animal.

the point about the slave what jamie kept saying i should be vegan/vegetarian, personally i eat meat b/c i like it... just as if i could own a slave i would. why b/c in this world it is survival of the strongest and the strongest will survive, that is why animals are our pets and not the other way around (ever seen planet of the apes?)

now you can't compare brain to brain, b/c the human brain is way more complex than a dogs, but dogs do learn and can be taught. humans have to be taught just the same. if you grew up w/ no one telling you about shiting in the toilet you would still be wetting your bed. the same for dogs you train them to piss outside in the yard not in your house. that is a learned behavior.

com'on guys how tuff is it to realize that humans are just the smartest of animals, look what we have evolved to. you find life so easy b/c of the 1000s of years of evolution that has brought us to present day. its like learning to walk or fly... those are learned behavior from trial and error, every living thing on this planet goes through it just some are more advanced than others. thats why dogs are mans best friend and not donkeys.

[Killer]

but humans came up with a way to not have to crap in the yard... we invented toilets..... no animal has ever invented a thing. yes some use "tools" like monkeys use sticks for stuff... but have you ever seen an animal shape anything or form anything to make it more useful.. no... monkey's don't make fishing poles or spears... they use only what they have because it's instinct. they don't try to improve what they have either...

[4dmin]

but humans came up with a way to not have to crap in the yard... we invented toilets..... no animal has ever invented a thing. yes some use "tools" like monkeys use sticks for stuff... but have you ever seen an animal shape anything or form anything to make it more useful.. no... monkey's don't make fishing poles or spears... they use only what they have because it's instinct. they don't try to improve what they have either...

have you INVENTED anything? ok then

your missing the point, you can't compare the average humans brain to a dogs, you can't compare the average humans brian to a todler why b/c the don't compare... its like oranges to apples they are different.

humans are just complex animals, we have just evolved differently than animals... animals breed, feed, communicate, kill, build, survive, etc... its funny for people who talk about you have to "believe" ; yet you think its crazy that an animal has a soul. what is life w/o purpose? if an animal has no soul then neither does a new born. its simple design isn't it; if you can't worship then you don't have a soul. i for that matter don't worship so then i don't have a soul, right???

[Killer]

i've invented plenty... it's not pattented nor famous but i've made and moded a lot of things....

and you make the choice not to worship... you have a soul that you can either give to God or let the devil take from you. and i don't think it's crazy that an animal has a soul... because they don't have one... i still don't see y you care whether or not your dog, my cat, you or i have a soul.... you don't believe in heaven. so why do you care????

[ISAtlanta300]

; yet you think its crazy that an animal has a soul. what is life w/o purpose?

Congratulations.. u asked the right questions.. now look in the mirror and ask yourself that. Maybe "what is MY purpose in life? Just to live my life?"

[4dmin]

i've invented plenty... it's not pattented nor famous but i've made and moded a lot of things....

and you make the choice not to worship... you have a soul that you can either give to God or let the devil take from you. and i don't think it's crazy that an animal has a soul... because they don't have one... i still don't see y you care whether or not your dog, my cat, you or i have a soul.... you don't believe in heaven. so why do you care????

just b/c i don't believe in your GOD doesn't mean i don't think people have a soul... those are two totaly different things you are trying to connect.

Animals have a soul in the sense that they possess life. A common Hebrew word translated life (soul) is nephesh. Nephesh is used for the life or breath of both animals and man (Gen. 1: 20, 30; 19: 17). Life is that state that is the opposite of death. It is a state of animation, breathing, and awareness. Men and animals alike possess a soul in the sense of breath (nephesh). However, in the sense of possessing a part or element that lives forever, as man possesses, animals do not possess an eternal spirit (cp. Matt. 25: 46). The animal simply and totally returns to the dust, the spirit of man continues to exist (Eccl. 3: 21, cp. 12: 7).

there w/ bible references animals have SOULS!!! they may not go to heaven but they do have souls.

[ISAtlanta300]

the point about the slave what jamie kept saying i should be vegan/vegetarian, personally i eat meat b/c i like it... just as if i could own a slave i would. why b/c in this world it is survival of the strongest and the strongest will survive, that is why animals are our pets and not the other way around (ever seen planet of the apes?)

now you can't compare brain to brain, b/c the human brain is way more complex than a dogs, but dogs do learn and can be taught. humans have to be taught just the same. if you grew up w/ no one telling you about shiting in the toilet you would still be wetting your bed. the same for dogs you train them to piss outside in the yard not in your house. that is a learned behavior.

Not really. I would prob. be pissing or shitting in the woods. I would FIGURE OUT to use leaves to wipe my ass. I would FIGURE OUT that I "smell", therefore I must "wash" myself in the river. I would "FIGURE OUT" how to invent the wheel.

There were dogs back then as there are dogs now. But only humans have "advanced". Hmmmmmmm

[4dmin]

Congratulations.. u asked the right questions.. now look in the mirror and ask yourself that. Maybe "what is MY purpose in life? Just to live my life?"

i have and your book still doesn't answer it for me

Not really. I would prob. be pissing or shitting in the woods. I would FIGURE OUT to use leaves to wipe my ass. I would FIGURE OUT that I "smell", therefore I must "wash" myself in the river. I would "FIGURE OUT" how to invent the wheel.

There were dogs back then as there are dogs now. But only humans have "advanced". Hmmmmmmm

yes there were humans back then too and you make assumptians that you would know what to do w/o knowing anything also even eyptians buried animals w/ them for the afterlife. this is BC and the rise of Christianity.

[Jaimecbr900]

Egyptians were NOT Christians. Actually they were Christian persecuters. So if THEY believed that dogs, birds, gold, a staff, and jewelry were "needed" for the afterlife it certainly doesn't reflect anything about what Christians believe. I don't see how that could serve as "proof" of anything in this discussion.

Even if we use the evolution theory of man, it proves that man is the superior being on the face of the planet. Why? Because even in the evolution theory man evolved from simian to upright human. Dogs have evolved very little if any. How can that be considered an "equal" even IF we don't factor in the God factor?

Take that one more step: If monkeys share the majority of our DNA, have vocal chords, and a brain similar in size......how come they've never uttered a word? How come if WE evolved from THEM, WE walk upright, talk, think, and take care of ourselves totally different?

I don't see how anyone can say rationally that animals are "equals". :confused:

[4dmin]

Egyptians were NOT Christians. Actually they were Christian persecuters. So if THEY believed that dogs, birds, gold, a staff, and jewelry were "needed" for the afterlife it certainly doesn't reflect anything about what Christians believe. I don't see how that could serve as "proof" of anything in this discussion.

Even if we use the evolution theory of man, it proves that man is the superior being on the face of the planet. Why? Because even in the evolution theory man evolved from simian to upright human. Dogs have evolved very little if any. How can that be considered an "equal" even IF we don't factor in the God factor?

Take that one more step: If monkeys share the majority of our DNA, have vocal chords, and a brain similar in size......how come they've never uttered a word? How come if WE evolved from THEM, WE walk upright, talk, think, and take care of ourselves totally different?

I don't see how anyone can say rationally that animals are "equals". :confused:

i never said that animals are our equals, but that we are animals. if they were equals it would be a level'd playing field but it is not that way, we rule. much like i've said before "survival of the fittest".

the point of this topic was one do animals have a soul and two do they go to heaven. i posted info from the bible stating even animals have souls, i just think that if an animal has a soul then it must go to heaven as well. also the point about egyptians is that even races prechristianity believed in after life for animals, so i don't think its crazy to think so.

[Killer]

how can you think they go to heaven????? you've said you don't even believe in God??? unless i'm mistaken....

[4dmin]

how can you think they go to heaven????? you've said you don't even believe in God??? unless i'm mistaken....

Ok, please explain to me how heaven is just a christian idea? just b/c i'm not christian nor do i believe in your god doesn't mean that i can't believe in something or an afterlife.

[Killer]

you can believe in what ever you want to believe, but Heaven and Hell are for Christians and non believers. you can believe in any type of after life you like... but it's not gonna be "Heaven" because "Heaven" is where God dwells.

[ISAtlanta300]

So what would be your idea of heaven? Do you believe we will all just be meandering around? Or that there will be some kind of power controlling it all?

[Kristi]

just saw this thread, but i think that animals go to heaven. i know when i get there i will see my old puppy pepsi and my other past animals.

i think that they do have souls. it cant be proven that they don't.

[4dmin]

you can believe in what ever you want to believe, but Heaven and Hell are for Christians and non believers. you can believe in any type of after life you like... but it's not gonna be "Heaven" because "Heaven" is where God dwells.

the term heaven was used long before christianity and it means: A condition or place of great happiness, delight, or pleasure, the word now since the rise of christianity has become a term that christians seem to think they made up.

there are always heavens it doesn't matter if your muslim, buddist, christian, or worship the devil for that matter. just b/c your not christian doesn't mean heaven doesn't exsist for you. so your wrong in christianity heaven is where GOD dwells.

you need to remember the world doesn't revolve around christianity, we as people exsisted long before your religion did.

[ISAtlanta300]

just saw this thread, but i think that animals go to heaven. i know when i get there i will see my old puppy pepsi and my other past animals.

i think that they do have souls. it cant be proven that they don't.

What is your definition of a "soul" ?

[ISAtlanta300]

the term heaven was used long before christianity and it means: A condition or place of great happiness, delight, or pleasure, the word now since the rise of christianity has become a term that christians seem to think they made up.

there are always heavens it doesn't matter if your muslim, buddist, christian, or worship the devil for that matter. just b/c your not christian doesn't mean heaven doesn't exsist for you. so your wrong in christianity heaven is where GOD dwells.

you need to remember the world doesn't revolve around christianity, we as people exsisted long before your religion did.

Not according to the bible..

Genesis mentions that God created the "heaven and the earth" so it got dibs on the word..

[4dmin]

Not according to the bible..

Genesis mentions that God created the "heaven and the earth" so it got dibs on the word..

its amazing every religion has a heaven yet you think you are the chosen people... well i don't believe in your heaven or hell so to me your book is nothing but lies.

[Killer]

Well all i can say is one day we'll all see who's right and who's wrong.... but i'm not scared not one bit i know where i'm going and i don't have to ask everyone else's opinion on the matter

[ISAtlanta300]

its amazing every religion has a heaven yet you think you are the chosen people... well i don't believe in your heaven or hell so to me your book is nothing but lies.

LOL it is not that we think we are the chosen people.. we ARE the chosen people !! yea !! wha?? what now?? want to mess with me and my "clicka" ??

LOL


Nah but in all seriousness, you believe in what you want to believe in. Every "OTHER" religion has a heaven.. but MOST if not all other religions have "deviated" from "the book of lies" you so eloquently put it. While it may be true that other "tribes" do believe in an "afterlife", karma, reincarnation etc, the "idea" of heaven came from Christianity.....

[4dmin]

LOL it is not that we think we are the chosen people.. we ARE the chosen people !! yea !! wha?? what now?? want to mess with me and my "clicka" ??

LOL


Nah but in all seriousness, you believe in what you want to believe in. Every "OTHER" religion has a heaven.. but MOST if not all other religions have "deviated" from "the book of lies" you so eloquently put it. While it may be true that other "tribes" do believe in an "afterlife", karma, reincarnation etc, the "idea" of heaven came from Christianity.....

again we are getting off subject, but how did heaven come from christianity if heaven came before christianity? and before christ and before people worshiping your god.

[Killer]

ummm "christianity" wasn't first your right... but Adam and Eve worshiped God long before anyone else on the earth existed.... there fore Heaven with God was first....

[Jaimecbr900]

again we are getting off subject, but how did heaven come from christianity if heaven came before christianity? and before christ and before people worshiping your god.

What do you base that on?

[Killer]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were first... Then God made angels... a couple of angels went bad... God made hell and cast the angels into it.... God made man with the power to chose heaven or hell... Adam and Eve Worshiped God.... They were the first humans on the earth... <---- = GOD AND GOD'S HEAVEN FIRST

[4dmin]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were first... Then God made angels... a couple of angels went bad... God made hell and cast the angels into it.... God made man with the power to chose heaven or hell... Adam and Eve Worshiped God.... They were the first humans on the earth... <---- = GOD AND GOD'S HEAVEN FIRST

wow that is your proof of heaven??? whatever dude, keep trying when you can prove adam/eve exsisted then we'll talk. its amazing your trying to debate on a issue that is older than your religion

[Jaimecbr900]

Paul, you didn't answer my question.

What do you base your opinion on that there was a "heaven" BEFORE Christianity?

[Killer]

you asked how we(I) got that heaven w/God was first.. that's where i get it... simple as that...