Noah + Ark + Flood = good topic

[4dmin]

So who here thinks that the secret to this great story is in Mount Ararat???

WASHINGTON (AP) -- An expedition is being planned for this summer to the upper reaches of Turkey's Mount Ararat where organizers hope to prove an object nestled amid the snow and ice is Noah's Ark.

joint U.S.-Turkish team of 10 explorers plans to make the arduous trek up Turkey's tallest mountain, at 17,820 feet, from July 15 to August 15, subject to the approval of the Turkish government, said Daniel P. McGivern, president of Shamrock-The Trinity Corporation of Honolulu, Hawaii.

The goal: to enter what they believe to be a mammoth structure some 45 feet high, 75 feet wide and up to 450 feet long that was exposed in part by last summer's heat wave in Europe.

"We are not excavating it. We are not taking any artifacts. We're going to photograph it and, God willing, you're all going to see it," McGivern said.

Explorers have long searched for an ark on the high slopes of Mount Ararat, where the biblical account of the Great Flood places it.

In 1957, Turkish air force pilots spotted a boat-shaped formation in Agri province. The government did not pursue the sighting, however. The entire area, including Mount Ararat, was off limits to foreigners because of Soviet complaints that explorers were U.S. spies.

That ban was lifted in 1982, and since then teams of explorers have visited the area but have been unable to substantiate any claim of an ark.

McGivern and Ahmet Ali Arslan, a Turkish mountain climber who grew up in a town near Mount Ararat, say satellite photos have helped them pinpoint a more exact location. Arslan will be leading the expedition.

The biblical account in the Book of Genesis says that after the great deluge, the ark came to rest on the mountain with Noah's family and a cargo of male and female pairs of every kind of animal.

Geologists say even though there is evidence of a flood in Mesopotamia in Sumerian times, it is not possible for a ship to make landfall at an altitude as high as Mount Ararat.

Explorers hope to uncover clues this summer to one of the oldest biblical mysteries, the location of Noah's Ark. A joint U.S.-Turkish team believes it has satellite photos of the frozen remains of the Ark buried in the ice and snow of Mount Ararat, Turkey's tallest mountain.

"I do hope to bring people to faith in God, but this is a nonreligious, scientific expedition to prove that Noah's Ark really exists on the top of that mountain," said Daniel McGivern, president of Shamrock - The Trinity Corporation of Honolulu.

Biblical accounts of the Great Flood said Noah's Ark - packed with two of every living creature - came to rest on Mount Ararat.

The first pictures of the site, taken by the U.S. Air Force in 1949, revealed what seemed to be a boat-shaped structure covered by ice.

In 1997, the government released several of these images, but experts deemed them inconclusive. But the 2003 heat wave - the hottest European summer since 1500 - melted massive amounts of snow on Mount Ararat and provided the chance to take clearer pictures.

Trinity Corporation commissioned the latest round of satellite photos. The photos show what they believe to be a mammoth structure some 45 feet high, 75 feet wide and up to 450 feet long.

"We are not excavating it. We are not taking any artifacts. We're going to photograph it and, God willing, you're all going to see it," McGivern said.

Farouk El-Baz, who heads the prestigious Center for Remote Sensing at Boston University, is not so sure. While he has not seen the latest photos, he reviewed reams of earlier shots and concluded the boat outlines were shadows caused by rock ledges.

Originally published on April 27, 2004

[chrisdavis]

I think it would be amazing if it is true. Not necessarily from a religious standpoint, but as validation that events in the bible actually happened.

[Hulud]

eh we'll see i HIGHLY doubt it though, i mean have you ever tried taking an ancy dog on a boat? imagine fitting two of every kind of animal on one! or trying to make them all survive, and how did they feed them all? i mean 40 days and 40 nights? they must have taken extra animals and slaughtered them and fed them to the rest of the animals.

too much BS for me to sort out.

[Pedal]

i once did some research on the ark and all that kind of mess... kindda what i came to find out is that the size the bible aludes(sp) to the ark being is no where near big enough for the amount of animals and people that had to on it.... basicaly the ark was about the size of a football field and i forget how tall, but it would have had to have been ? times bigger to be used for what the bible sugest.


my question is more how did they feed the animals and what did they do with all the "waste"...

[chuck]

...special on the ark on the history channel right now...

[gijoe0720]

I heard that the average sized animal then was the size of a sheep.
You could fit like 250,000 animals on the ark and there was like 75,000 different types of animals back then.

[NEONRACER]

Noah's ark is the boat built by the Biblical character Noah. At the command of God, according to the story, Noah was to build a boat that could accommodate his extended family, about 50,000 species of animals, and about one million species of insects. The craft had to be constructed to endure a divinely planned universal flood aimed at destroying every other person and animal on earth (except, I suppose, those animals whose habitat is liquid). This was no problem, according to Dr. Max D. Younce, who says by his calculations from Genesis 6:15 that the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet deep. He says this is equivalent to "522 standard stock cars or 8 freight trains of 65 cars each." By some divine calculation he figures that all the insect species and the worms could fit in 21 box cars. He could be right, though Dr. Younce does not address the issue of how the big boxcar filled with its cargo rose with the rainwater level instead of staying put beneath the floodwaters.

Those not familiar with the story might wonder why God would destroy nearly all the descendants of all of the creatures he had created. The story is that God was displeased with all of his human creations, except for Noah and his family. Annihilating those one is displeased with has become a familiar tactic of the followers of this and many other gods.

Despite the bad example God set for Noah's descendants--imagine a human parent drowning his or her children because they were "not righteous"--the story remains a favorite among children. God likes good people. He lets them ride on a boat with a bunch of friendly animals. He shows them a great rainbow after the storm. And they all live happily ever after. Even adults like the story, though they might see it as an allegory with some sort of spiritual message, such as God is all-powerful and we owe everything, even our very existence to the Creator. Furthermore, the Creator expects us to behave ourselves. But there are many who take the story literally.

According to the story told in chapter 7 of Genesis, Noah, his crew, and the animals lived together for more than 6 months before the floodwaters receded. There are a few minor logistical problems with this arrangement, but before getting to them, there is one other thing that needs commenting on. It is obvious that floods are no laughing matter. The destruction of life and property caused by floods has plagued many animals, not just humans, from time immemorial. To watch one's family or home swept away in floodwaters must be a terrible spectacle. To see one's children drown, one's life and dreams washed away in an instant, must be a devastating experience. But if one were to discover that the flood was not a whimsical effect of chance natural events, not unplanned and purposeless, but rather the malicious and willful act of a conscious being, one might add rage to the feelings of devastation. I suppose one could argue that it is God's world; he created it, so he can destroy it if he feels like it. But such an attitude seems inappropriate for an All-Good, Loving God.

the "finding" of the ark

Yet, as preposterous as this story seems, there are people in the twentieth century who claim they have found Noah's ark. They call themselves "arkeologists." Yes, they say that when the flood receded, Noah and his zoo were perched upon the top of Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Presumably, at that time, all the animals dispersed to the far recesses of the earth. How the animals got to the different continents, we are not told. Perhaps they floated there on debris. More problematic is how so many species survived when they had been reduced to just one pair or seven pairs of creatures. Also, you would think that the successful species that had the furthest to travel, would have left a trail of offspring along the way. What evidence is there that all species originated in Turkey? That's what the record should look like if the ark landed on Mt. Ararat.

Still, none of this deters the true believer from maintaining that the story of Noah's ark is the God's truth. Nor does it deter those who think the ark has been found. For example, in 1977 a pseudo-documentary called "In Search of Noah's ark" was played on numerous television stations. CBS showed a special in 1993 entitled "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark." The first is a work of fiction claiming to be a documentary. The second was masterminded by George Jammal, who has admitted that the story was a hoax. Jammal said he wanted to expose religious frauds. His hoax was seen by about 20 million people, most of whom probably still do not know that Jammal did not want them to take it seriously.

During his show, Jammal produced what he called "sacred wood" from the ark, which he later admitted was wood taken from railroad tracks in Long Beach, California, which he had hardened by cooking in an oven. He also prepared other fake wood by frying a piece of California pine on his kitchen stove in a mix of wine, iodine, sweet-and-sour and teriyaki sauces. He also admitted that he had never been to Turkey. The program was produced by Sun International Pictures, based in Salt Lake City, and responsible for several pseudo-documentaries on Nostradamus, the Bermuda Triangle, the Shroud of Turin, and UFOs.

the evidence for a universal flood

Stories of floods are not unique to the ancient Jews.* What geological or archaeological evidence is there of such a universal destruction of all human societies, all plants and all animals except for the ones on Noah's boat (or Ziusudra's [Sumeria], or Utnapishtim's [Babylon])? There should be a layer of sediment dating from the same time which contains all the bones of these poor creatures. There should be evidence that all human societies were wiped out simultaneously. No such evidence exists of a universal flood. Evidence of a great flood, perhaps caused by melting glaciers bursting through the Bosporus strait some 7,000 years ago, has been discovered off the coast of Turkey by Robert Ballard (who found the remains of the Titanic) and some (like Ryan and Pitman) have claimed this is evidence of Noah's flood, but this is pure and inane speculation. The Biblical flood is due to rain, not a bursting dam. As archeological anthropologist John Alden notes

...the story in the Bible is clear -- it rained for weeks before Noah's flood, and after it stopped raining the floodwaters receded. The Black Sea flood wasn't caused by rain, and after the water rose it never went away. And neither [the Sumerian nor the Biblical] story mentions the most dramatic consequence of the Black Sea flood, which turned fresh water into salt. Noah's flood, in short, doesn't sound anything like the inundation of the Black Sea.

However, for the sake of argument, let's agree that there was a universal flood, but that somehow the evidence got twisted around so that geologically and archaeologically it doesn't appear that the flood occurred. There are still a few questions we should ask before accepting this theory. First, how big was this boat? The answer: really, really big! Would it float? Noah might have been given divine guidance here, so maybe this boat could float. Remember that this is all done before the discovery of metallurgy (or was it?), so the boat is made of wood and other natural materials. How many forests would it take to provide the lumber for such a boat? How many people working how many years would be required? Building a pyramid would be peanuts compared to building the ark. But remember, people lived a lot longer in those days. Noah was 600 years old when he built his giant boat in the desert.

But let's say that, however implausible, such a boat could have been built using the technology of wooden-boat building known to the earliest peoples. After all, Noah allegedly had God's help in building his boat. There is still the problem of gathering the animals together from the various parts of the world that, as far as we know, Noah had no idea even existed. How did he get to the remote regions of the earth to collect exotic butterflies and Komodo dragons? How did he get all those species of dinosaurs to follow him home? (Fundamentalists believe dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time.) By the time he collected all his species, in twos and sevens, his boat would probably have rotted in the desert sun.

But let's grant that Noah was able to collect all the birds and mammals, reptiles, and amphibians, and a couple of million insects that he is said to have gathered together on his boat. There is still the problem of keeping the animals from eating one another. Or, are we to believe that the lion was lying down with the lamb on the ark? Did the carnivores become vegetarians for the duration of the flood? How did he keep the birds from eating the insects? Perhaps the ark was stocked with foods for all the animals. After all, if Noah could engineer the building of a boat which could hold all those animals, it would have been a small feat to add room to store enough food to last for more than six months. Of course, Noah would have to store enough food for himself and his family, too. But these would have been minor details to such a man with such a plan guided by God.

Still, it seems difficult to imagine how such a small crew could feed all these animals in a single day. There is just Noah, his wife, their three sons and three daughters-in-law. The "daily" rounds would take years, it seems. Delicacy forbids me from mentioning the problems of the "clean-up" detail, but I would have to say that if the noise of all those animals didn't drive Noah insane (not to mention the insect bites), the smell should have killed him. At least they didn't have to worry about water to drink. God provided water in abundance.

Finally, belief in the universal flood or even belief in the building of the ark are not nearly as strange as the belief that this event of mass destruction was the direct work of the Creator to show anger at people who would dare to enjoy this life and have a good time rather than spend all their free time worshipping the Almighty.

[blacknightteg]

dear god man we didnt need the whole fuckin story

[NEONRACER]

Why not? If you are going to discuss a topic at least have something to back up your claims.

[blacknightteg]

cuz im sure everyone knowss wtf noah's arch is i doubt anyone even if a differnt religion is that sheltered to not know

[NEONRACER]

Did you even read what I posted? If you did you would see that I am not trying to tell the story of Noah's Ark.

[Wedge]

dear god man we didnt need the whole fuckin story

I can't stop laughing

[Xrated O.G.]

Why not? If you are going to discuss a topic at least have something to back up your claims.

Interesting to say the least. Just out of curiousity what is your source of this material?

[Sleepin Hatch]

i read it. and it was interesting

[Dragonfly5338]

Actually, it's strange if you read other ancient literature, there's mentions of a great flood in there as well. We just had to read Gilgamesh and in the story was the only survivor of the great flood the gods sent down to destroy mankind. And this story was written in approx 3000 BC. Dunno about the ark, though.

[NEONRACER]

There is proof of great floods in history but no proof of a worldwide flood. The world was much larger back then. A great flood that would cover say 30 sq miles would seem like the world was flooded. The story of Noah's Ark just does not make sense.

[Sleepin Hatch]

Actually, it's strange if you read other ancient literature, there's mentions of a great flood in there as well. We just had to read Gilgamesh and in the story was the only survivor of the great flood the gods sent down to destroy mankind. And this story was written in approx 3000 BC. Dunno about the ark, though.

whoa. just read that the other week in class. couple other religion mention a flood in one way or another in their text. the flood was said to be created becuase the God didnt like how his creation where acting so he killed them with a flood.

[ironchef]

Thats just like the story of Utnapishtim (sp?), actually learned that in class last week. Interesting to say the least.