God vs. Science

[DoriDori]

Dude no offense but being a Christian some poeple dont understand the key point of the Bible. Each person has a different interpertation on it and also there's hidden meaning in those verses. That's why it's hard. Honestly Ive read the Bible more then my mind can fill up and Im still not understanding most of it due to the fact that there is more meaning. Even my dad is a pastor and he's still continously looking for more meanings in the Bible. Trust me it's not some easy thing to go breezy by.

O my bro, my friend, i totally agree. Reading the bible front to back is not engough. Im reading the chronolgical bible right now, and i can see myself reading it over and over. I cant wait to start it over cause i know ill catch things i missed before. But one thing ive learned is to never simple pluck out verses from the bible without knowing the story there sown into. The bible is not to be veiwed as verses, it is a story meant to be read cover to cover. My freind Kevin Myers told me this story:

"An old grandmother was pulled over for speeding. When the officer asked the lady to roll her window down he noticed there was a Dust Buster vacuum cleaner humming away on the dash. When asking the old grandmother why she had a vacuum cleaner on her dash she replied to the officer,"my grandchildren told me if put one in my car, i wouldnt get pulled over by the cops. Later that day the officer is informed that the ladys grandchildren had told her that if she placed a "fuzz buster" on her dash, she would avoid the cops."

How many people are living with "dust busters" on there spritual dashboards? By simply plucking fragments from the story, its a sooo easy to mis interpret the meaning of the bible.

[Crazy Asian]

You want to know that mark of the 666 is? It's some crazy stuff and it's already happening.

[Maniac1]

You want to know that mark of the 666 is? It's some crazy stuff and it's already happening.

I know what the numbers stands for, and know that we are living in the "end of times" but thats the only book I wanna read!

[Crazy Asian]

Mark of the 666 is a barcode. In the coming end of the world the new "world" leader(yes I said world leader when all nations will come under one guy) is going to enforce this barcode on everyone. The barcode has all your info. Social security, driver's license, credit card, everything. This is how he's going to start weeding out the Christians and persecuting them. You basically cant buy or do anything. Already this is happening these past couple of year and people are getting them on their hands or forehead. some christians think this is a blessing by god... UH NO!!!!

[Maniac1]

Mark of the 666 is a barcode. In the coming end of the world the new "world" leader(yes I said world leader when all nations will come under one guy) is going to enforce this barcode on everyone. The barcode has all your info. Social security, driver's license, credit card, everything. This is how he's going to start weeding out the Christians and persecuting them. You basically cant buy or do anything. Already this is happening these past couple of year and people are getting them on their hands or forehead. some christians think this is a blessing by god... UH NO!!!!

...

[Crazy Asian]

Ya exactly. Christians are pwned. All other religions are okay with that barcode except us. Let me dig some other notes I had.

[DoriDori]

If God ends up being real. Depending on my situation and life style, I really don't know. Im a stubborn individual, so it's hard for me to answer that.

Yeah i feel you. Im as stubborn as they come. But God fools me everyday lol. I grew up forced to go to church, i hated it. It was just something we did as a family on sundays. Since I started college, life on my own, I looked again and things started to change. I have so much more ahead of and so much more to learn, i know it becasue i want and need more. Things got a little clearer in my perspective about life and the world, i first learned its not about me, its about God and others. Giving yourself away to God, Community, and worship. Its hard and takes everything I have. Im definently here for you if there is anything I could help. Ive been around church for 20 years, but never listened to God untill about a year ago. So i might not be that much help, ill do what i can, but i can sure point you to some people if u need.

Did anyone catch that Tom Brady interview on CBS?? He basically laid it all out there. He said he has at all money, the girl, the super bowl rings, THE SUCCESS, fame, but he relixes theres gotta be somthing else. check it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdcJSsRfL8s

what do you feel?

[Maniac1]

what do you feel?

I see what he's trying to say. It's kinda like me, when I take a sh!t I always leave feeling like there was something more, like I didn't finish you know? It gets me thinking, too. LOL But nah, seriously I know what you're saying. Maybe one day I'll get to that point where I need to look for something more.

[DoriDori]

I see what he's trying to say. It's kinda like me, when I take a sh!t I always leave feeling like there was something more, like I didn't finish you know? It gets me thinking, too. LOL But nah, seriously I know what you're saying. Maybe one day I'll get to that point where I need to look for something more.

hahaha reps for you, not that u need em but i just seriously "laughed out loud" in a group when i read that

[Craigers2k]

The Bible tells us that the earth was created in six days. Six days, what does that exactly mean? The changes that the Bible describes could not have taken place in just six twenty-four hour days. It is just not enough time in physical terms. So you tell me, what sounds true? That God placed us here, and everything was form with the quickness, or that over time things evolved to the way they are today?

Everything needs a spark to start things off, and who knows. Maybe the Big bang was that spark for us.

The Bible also says in 2 Peter 3:8 that "...With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

I don't believe God created the Earth in 6 24 hour time periods. I don't think we really have any true concept of God's time.

I believe that God created everything. How exactly He did that, we really don't know. Genesis 2:7 states: the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

That could imply that man "evolved" from small organisms. But it was all done under God's direction.

I will say this though, if God wanted to create the Earth and universe in 6 24 hour periods, it wouldn't be beyond Him. The great thing is, my salvation is not based upon me knowing exactly how God created things.

[Craigers2k]

I personally don't know everything about evolution. Just the fact that over a long period of time things must change, this could be due to their environment going threw changes were they have to adapt to these new changes. During this time period, it learns from experince and gains new knowledge, allowing it to live in newer enviroments. Thus "evolving" from a previous stage. A less advance organism.

What you are talking about is simply adaptation, which I hope no one is arguring its validity and which also does nothing to begin to explain how life and this universe began on its own with out any input from God.

I am going to keep reading through the thread, so if you response to my comments and I take awhile that would be the reason.

[Craigers2k]

And a question for thought, if god created all life, then how come humans are the only ones confined to the 10 commandments? Animals kill other animals. Most species are not monogamous. These species lack the reasoning of humans so how can they repent? Do the not deserve eternal life? Is everything destine for hell except the human race?

We (humans) where the only ones created in God's image. In likeness of Him. Animals have no souls.

[Craigers2k]

todays jesus christ = the bush administration.

chritianity is a big misconception that has been held up by 0.50 duct tape for 1,000's of years.

and on top of that...

evolution makes WAYYY more sense than "once upon a time, there was nothing there... and then there was.. and thank god for everything. now go get on your knees and suck his ****, you little ingrateful piece of shet, or burn in hell for the rest of your afterlife"

open your goddamn eyes.

SCIENCE DOES EXIST!

EVOLUTION DOES EXIST!

GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

i dont have anyhting to worry about... christianity WILL fail. sooner or later.

Wow, I am now convinced.

[Craigers2k]

So if I make a book, today. About weird storys, and than store it. And for some reason it gets found 1000 years from now, will I be considered god? I mean, the book will be old, written years ago, right? I mean, thats kinda what you're trying to say... explain.

Lets take a look at what the Bible claims:
In II Timothy 3:16 Paul explains that ALL scripture is "God-breathed," or coming from God.

The Bible also explains in Jeremiah 28:9 that fulfilled prophecy is one of the evidences of the supernatural origin of the word of its prophets. The Bible has many prophecies of Christ prophesied in the OT that were fulfilled in the NT. There are also many prophecies of other various things, fates of cities, countries, areas, etc.

Here's just a few of the prophecies fulfilled in Jesus' life:

Event in Jesus' life----------------------------Old Testament---------Fulfilled Prophecy

Born in Bethlehem....................................Micah 5:2.....................Luke 2:4-7
Sold for thirty pieces of silver...................Zechariah 1:13.............Matthew 26:15
silver used to buy a potter's field.............Zechariah 11:13...........Matthew 27:6
silent when accused.................................Isaiah 53:7...................Matthew 27:12-14
condemned with criminals........................Isaiah 53:12.................Luke 23:32-33
raging thirst when dying..........................Psalm 22:15.................John 19:28
Crucified [hands and feet pierced]...........Psalm 22:16.................John 19:18
pierced after death..................................Isaiah 53:5...................Luke 23:46
buried by a rich man................................Isaiah 53:9..................Matthew 27:57-60
suffering not the end...............................Isaiah 53:11................Luke 24:1-8

Again, this is just a few of them.


The Bible states that it is the Word of God, and has fulfilled prophecies to back up these claims, now how reliable are the documents that we have today?

Lets look at that:

-the bibliographical test, which i have found as an examination of the "textual transmission by which documents reach us. in other words, since we do not have the original documents, how reliable are the copies we have in regard to the number of manuscripts(MSS) and the time interval between the original and the extant copy(1)."

number of surviving MSS of the New Testament: 24633

the Iliad (for comparison) by Homer is second with 643 MSS

Breakdown of the New Testament MSS:

Greek:
Uncials: 267
Minuscules: 2764
Lectionaries: 2143
Papyri: 88
recent finds: 47
total: 5309 extant greek MSS

Latin Vulgate: 10000 plus
Ethiopic: 2000 plus
slavic: 4101
Armenian: 2587
Syriac Pashetta: 350 plus
Bohairic: 100
Arabic: 75
Old Latin: 50
Anglo Saxon: 7
Gothic: 6
Sogdian: 3
Old Syriac: 2
Persian: 2
Frankish: 1

Also:

Work_________when written________earliest copy
Iliad_____________900 B.C.__________400 B.C.
New Testament___40-100 A.D.________125 A.D.


________________time span_______No. of copies
Iliad_____________500 yrs____________643
New Testament____25 years_________over 24000 (1)

Having so many copies allows us to cross examine the copies for any discrepancies between them.

The discrepancies found are so rare and minor that scholars Norman Geisler and William Nix concluded that 'The New Testament, then, has not only survived in more manuscripts than any other book from antiquity, but it has survived in a purer form than any other great book - a form that is 99.5 percent pure (2).'

'The textual evidence decisively shows that the Gospels were written and circulated during the lifetime of those who witnessed the events. Since there are so many specific names and places mentioned, eyewitnesses could have easily discredited the writings. The New Testament would have never survived had the facts been inaccurate (3).'

'The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning. And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt (4).'

References:
1: McDowell, Josh. Evidence that Demands a Verdict.
2: Strobel, Lee. The Case for Christ. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1998.
3: Zukeran, Pat. 'The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?' Probe Online Ministries. 1997. 29 Apr. 2003
4: Bruce, F.F., Ph.D.. 'The New Testament Documents: Their Date And Attestation.' World

[Craigers2k]

So God created everything, including man, but if this is so, then who created God? Basically, there has to be a creator of the creator, right? Who then gave God the right to be God? And who gave the creator of God the right to create God?

Yes, something of this world can't come out of nothing. God, is not of this world. A "god" by definition is that of a supernatural being, no? Meaning that it would not be limited by anything. God is all powerful. A spiritual being with NO limits, and therefore not requiring a beginning. The universe (this physical world), is not a supernatural being, and can't be held to the same standards. Whether you believe it is one thing, but please tell me you at least understand what I am saying?

[Craigers2k]

If god created all and is the higher power, who would send everyone to hell not matter what without the sacrifice of Jesus? Wouldn't the creator be in control of everything? A sacrifice is usually done to please someone else so who would God be trying to please. Seems to me there is someone behind the curtain.

God was not trying to please Himself, He was reaching out to us. Let me explain.

You must first understand that God made us to be in a loving relationship with us. That is what He/we originally had with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He did give us free will. There is no way to have a true loving relationship without free will. We however disobeyed God and broke that relationship. Sin entered and every human is sinful because of that. But God continued to reach out to us and through the death of Christ and gave the gift of Salvation.

I feel like a good analogy would be like this: Say you fell down, and the only way you could be saved is to have some help you up. I stood in front of you ready to pull you up day in and day out with an outstretched arm waiting for you to take it. You never do and eventually die. Did your death come from my actions or your lack of?

When you understand how Salvation works you understand that God is always there with the offer. He is not going to force you to take it. You have to make the decision. If you refuse, God is not turning His back to you, you are turning your back to Him, and he will honor the decision you have made and you will spend an eternity without Him.

You need to understand that we turned away from God. While we had our backs turned to Him, He reached out to us. It is our responsibility to determine what we do with God's offer. I hope that clarifies things.

[Craigers2k]

Alright picture this, someone is born in a vegative state and and is put on life support for 25 years. That person lacks the reasoning skills due to massive brain damage and is unable to comprehend anything. That person is a born sinner according to your perspective. The person is unable to to worship god. Is that person destine to hell for the lack of being able to "cleanse" its self of the sins? Why is being born a sin?

I believe young children and those not able to mentally grasp the concept of sin, death, and Christ will be in Heaven when they die.

[JDMEK18]

I believe young children and those not able to mentally grasp the concept of sin, death, and Christ will be in Heaven when they die.

Yeah, when using it in that since - we have to understand that we are all born into this world with sin because everyone after Eve (and she was the first so, ) are born in sin because of Adam and Eve's sinful actions..

As much as we would like for children to understand right away ( i have two and I think they understand full concepts but its more then saying yes and no to fully understand and digest something mentally) but they don't. God is not holding them accountable for there actions because they are not aware of there sin yet.. Same with a person that has brain damage? but if he sinned all his life and when he was 21 - got into a car accident and became brain dead before he could accept Jesus in his life - he would perish and this is why we have to live each day like its our last because you have a chance now, you have a choice now but you choose to live in sin instead of turning to the one that can cleanse us... Jesus!

[JDMEK18]

God was not trying to please Himself, He was reaching out to us. Let me explain.

You must first understand that God made us to be in a loving relationship with us. That is what He/we originally had with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He did give us free will. There is no way to have a true loving relationship without free will. We however disobeyed God and broke that relationship. Sin entered and every human is sinful because of that. But God continued to reach out to us and through the death of Christ and gave the gift of Salvation.

I feel like a good analogy would be like this: Say you fell down, and the only way you could be saved is to have some help you up. I stood in front of you ready to pull you up day in and day out with an outstretched arm waiting for you to take it. You never do and eventually die. Did your death come from my actions or your lack of?

When you understand how Salvation works you understand that God is always there with the offer. He is not going to force you to take it. You have to make the decision. If you refuse, God is not turning His back to you, you are turning your back to Him, and he will honor the decision you have made and you will spend an eternity without Him.

You need to understand that we turned away from God. While we had our backs turned to Him, He reached out to us. It is our responsibility to determine what we do with God's offer. I hope that clarifies things.

Amen brother,

[JDMEK18]

Originally Posted by revsk8erdude
todays jesus christ = the bush administration.

chritianity is a big misconception that has been held up by 0.50 duct tape for 1,000's of years.

and on top of that...

evolution makes WAYYY more sense than "once upon a time, there was nothing there... and then there was.. and thank god for everything. now go get on your knees and suck his ****, you little ingrateful piece of shet, or burn in hell for the rest of your afterlife"

open your goddamn eyes.

SCIENCE DOES EXIST!

EVOLUTION DOES EXIST!

GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

i dont have anyhting to worry about... christianity WILL fail. sooner or later.

Wow.. not to anger you you - you are def. talking out of anger Have you ever sat down searched where your thoughts come from. What makes you feel this anger towards the Christian belief? Instead bashing you - i just want to challenge you think outside of the box. if you seek Him then he will prove that He exists. God bless you sir.

[Maniac1]

What you are talking about is simply adaptation, which I hope no one is arguring its validity and which also does nothing to begin to explain how life and this universe began on its own with out any input from God.

Adaptation is the first stage of evolution, without organisms adapting to their environment we wouldn't have formed. Yes I believe this, and if you believe that the way we started was by Adam and Eve you're too deep into the misconceptions in the bible.

I will say this though, if God wanted to create the Earth and universe in 6 24 hour periods, it wouldn't be beyond Him. The great thing is, my salvation is not based upon me knowing exactly how God created things.

Thats not scientifically possible.

But you can believe what you want to believe, even if they're childish thoughts.

[Craigers2k]

Adaptation is the first stage of evolution, without organisms adapting to their environment we wouldn't have formed. Yes I believe this, and if you believe that the way we started was by Adam and Eve you're too deep into the misconceptions in the bible.


Thats not scientifically possible.

But you can believe what you want to believe, even if they're childish thoughts.

Again, adaptation does not explain how life began. Life must first exist before it can begin to adapt. Where did the first organisms come from?

As I said before, I do NOT believe that the Earth was created in 6 days. But I won't say it is impossible for that to happen.

BTW, your stupid little insults don't make you or your agruments sound more intelligent.

[Maniac1]

Again, adaptation does not explain how life began. Life must first exist before it can begin to adapt. Where did the first organisms come from?

As I said before, I do NOT believe that the Earth was created in 6 days. But I won't say it is impossible for that to happen.

BTW, your stupid little insults don't make you or your agruments sound more intelligent.

There is no point to argue with you. I could reply too all six sentences but there really is no point. I've been done with this thread, but unless you can post something I haven't already read there is no point to continue. So if you want to get deep into it, get your bible out and start marinating something that'll have enough intellect to match my own.

Im ready when you are, big shot.

[Craigers2k]

...something that'll have enough intellect to match my own.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice.

Maybe next time we can have a discussion with less attitude.

[David88vert]

Evolution has never been observed on a genetic level. Show me where a DNA sequence has evolved into a new species.

No one can explain, on a genetic, microbiological level, how Evolution might work, exactly-- carpenter genes, mutations being re-absorbed into the gene pool and disapppearing, etc.

No one can explain why there have been no new 'body plans' since the Cambrian Explosion; nor, for that matter, the Cambrian Explosion itself. The testimony in support of one species changing into another is tentative at best; for a new genus (or anything beyond that)-- completely nonexistent.

Macroevolution is a atheistic religious topic with no true scientific proof at this point in history.

[DJ Raijin]

there was a documentary about this on BBC called:
The Source of All Evil?
You can find it on Google Video, it's split into 2 parts at about 45 minutes each.

Very good watch.

[Sledlude]

Again, adaptation does not explain how life began. Life must first exist before it can begin to adapt. Where did the first organisms come from?

As I said before, I do NOT believe that the Earth was created in 6 days. But I won't say it is impossible for that to happen.

BTW, your stupid little insults don't make you or your agruments sound more intelligent.

I'm going with "life" began as a single-celled organism... millions of years ago, the chemistry was just right on earth, so that the building blocks of life (amino acids, nucleic acids, etc) were formed- eventually associating with each other in away that information was preserved and the organism could replicate... fast forward years and years and YEARS later, and more advanced organisms evolved, such as those that could use sunlight for energy.... fast forward more and primitive marine life evolves which eventually spreads on to land (some staying in the oceans)...

we would not be here if there was no water on our planet. Like in college chemistry- when you want a reaction to take place between two substances, you facilitate this by dissolving them in a solvent so the molecules can interact with each other freely. Over the span of millions of years, the same chemistry took place in the oceans of earth, eventually resulting in life.

to me, this seems more sound than creation in 6 days.

whats missing from the picture is the fact that we cannot "engineer" life in the lab. there is a certain essence that allows things to be alive- its the difference between a bundle of proteins with DNA and an actual living organism. who knows- i hope we get there.

[The12lber]

whats missing from the picture is the fact that we cannot "engineer" life in the lab. there is a certain essence that allows things to be alive- its the difference between a bundle of proteins with DNA and an actual living organism. who knows- i hope we get there.

Not true, they're making artificial life in the lab from the first chromosome up. Totally artificial manmade organisms.

[Sledlude]

where did you see that? reference please. not ball busting, im honestly curious.


if thats true, than theres no room for god in the explanation of the origin of life.

[isa2o3]

dude why do u keep posting these anti-god things.

[Maniac1]

dude why do u keep posting these anti-god things.

Im gonna take a guess and say you're talking to me. 1)This thread is actually pretty old. LOL And 2) IA isn't just about posting worthless imformation about cars and the whores lounge. We have alot of members who have more knowledge than just "yo momma said this and that." Take this thread for example.

Why, do you have a problem with all my anti-god threads?

[David88vert]

Not true, they're making artificial life in the lab from the first chromosome up. Totally artificial manmade organisms.

That's not completely true. Venter is not starting with raw nucleotides, he is starting with DNA strands which his team is combining. They've been working on it for years, and always saying that they are "almost there". It will be interesting if they get the strands to combine properly.
Also, they are using an already living bacterial cell for their project, so while it could possibly create a new DNA strand and technically a new species, that does not necessarily mean that they have created life itself. However, it is a very big and important step in the direction of such.

I am assuming that you are referring to this project, as it is the only one that I know of that has a legitimate chance of success - and you did not specify once by name.

[BABY J]

...

[myyellowspec]

I have Just one question. Where are dinosaurs in the Bible? Most of the other animals a brief cameo with Noah. Is it because when GOD was telling people what to scribble down in the bible he just forgot? Or is it because SCIENTISTS, paleontologists, had not discovered their bones yet and therefore the people fabricating the bible could not include them? Also why would GOD let a tornado hit a church???

[man]

I suggest you all take a look at the book "I Don't Believe in Atheists" I haven't read it yet but from reading the descriptions it might revolutionize how you look at religions, and yes, Atheism is a religion.

[David88vert]

I have Just one question. Where are dinosaurs in the Bible? Most of the other animals a brief cameo with Noah. Is it because when GOD was telling people what to scribble down in the bible he just forgot? Or is it because SCIENTISTS, paleontologists, had not discovered their bones yet and therefore the people fabricating the bible could not include them? Also why would GOD let a tornado hit a church???

Read Job 40-41.

And a torando hit a church building, not a church.

[Hulud]

...

i love it



btw: i cant believe this thread is still going, anyone wanna bring me up to speed? or is it just running in circles for pages and pages?

[Ran]

Not sure if it's been mention yet or not, but the bible does refer to the world as a sphere while all others believed it to be flat. This was, obviously, generations before Columbus failed to fall off the end of the Earth.

Just some debatable material.

[TIGERJC]

I really don't care if their is a God or not. I lean to the none believing side, I just don't understand why ppl worship something that has never done anything for you. But who cares, aslong as Christians live a good life and do not interfere with none believers lifestyle then I wish them the best of luck going to that big cloud in the sky. I could be wrong, but if I go to hell just for not believing in something than Fu.ck God

I guess I am going to hell, shiet I will just repent right before I die just like all the Murders and real evil ppl of this world. I love loop holes

[Ran]

I really don't care if their is a God or not. I lean to the none believing side, I just don't understand why ppl worship something that has never done anything for you. But who cares, aslong as Christians live a good life and do not interfere with none believers lifestyle then I wish them the best of luck going to that big cloud in the sky. I could be wrong, but if I go to hell just for not believing in something than Fu.ck God

I guess I am going to hell, shiet I will just repent right before I die just like all the Murders and real evil ppl of this world. I love loop holes

Actually, for those that actually read the Bible, you can see that during the second coming of Jesus there will be a great resurrection. Those that were not shown the truth to the word or who were not properly informed about it will be shown the truth and given the chance to redeem themselves by proclaiming faith.

As for people who think they're going to either Heaven or Hell, they're sadly mistaken. According to the scriptures, only 144,000 are going to ascend to Heaven and rule as kings with Jesus Christ. Those who have saved their souls through faith will inherit the new Earth after Armaggaedon. Those that do not believe will be ultimately destroyed, not sent to Hell. Hell is actually reserved for Satan and his demons. It's a place where the damned eternal will reside and be punished for all eternity.